Honda S2000 Lease Questions

23109vc · January 2008

i'll email the local dealers and see how cheap I cang et them.

the rx8 is a run car, but it's not as fun as the s2k when you are just "driving".

for commuting and hauling a passenger (or two) the 8 would be a really great car. but i'm sort of worried about a used 8 as i know there are some issues with them and i'd hate to be making a used car payment and get hit with repairs.

i COULD find a really really low mile used 06 and have several years of warranty left..so i'd have some peace of mind, but the 8 depreciates like nuts. so i'd end up with a used 8 for say 18-20k. my monthly payment on a used one would be not too bad... but the lease deal ont he s2k is pretty good and that's for brand new with full waranty.

i'd be on the hook for my monthly payment and that's it.

also, i'm very much into performance. after driving the 8 and the s2k, i can say for a fact that the 8 would leave me wanting to mod it. i'd for sure want to stiffen up[t he springs, sway bars...and then i'm dumping a couple of grand just tog et it to handle like the s2k. the s2k, when i drove it, was PERFECT as is. i know guys mod it, but bone stock the s2k would be FINE for me and I would be perfectly happy to drive it through out the lase and NOT mod a thing.

the 8 would get me in the mod mood..and i don't know if I really want to buya usd car that i need to mod to make me happy in it. if i bougth used, i could do mods, and mazdaspeed sells stuff that the dealer won't void warranty on...so you can do it.

i wonder what would handle better. a bone stock s2k, or an 06 RX8 with coilovers, sway bars, strut bars? hmmmm...

very tough decision. buying used vs a lease of new. the new s2k would be more fun to thrash around but at the end of the lease, you've spent that money and you "own" nothing.

on a used rx8 purchase, say i pick it up for 20k out the door. spend 2k to make it handle like the s2k (or maybe even OUT handle the s2k) and in 4-05 years of payments i'd own it outright and lets say it was worth 20k when i bought it, in 5 years, maybe it's still wroth 5k or so... so i've "spent" a net of 15k.

on a 3 years lease,of an s2k, that's about all i'll spend. so in the short run i'd spend more on the s2k lease and spend less in the long run to buy the 8.

they are both cool cars.

i really hate that digital LED bar graph looking tach on the s2k and I love the 8's tach/gauge setup. very cool. i like the shifter int he 8 better too.

i need to test dive a used 8 to see how i like it.

tough decision.

of course my wife thinks I should wait for the 09 TL that is AWD, then sell my s70 volvo, and put the cash toward that.

i kinda want a sports car though.

dwynne · January 2008

The 8 is sports car, but is more of a GT in looks and somewhat in feel. The smoothness of the motor and the non-hard ride can fool you into thinking it is not fast and not handing the road. But it you drove them back to back over the same roads you would see the 8 does not give up much to the S. My problems with it were the gulping of gas, slurping of oil, and lack of resale value and also long term reliability. So while I loved driving the car, loved the look of it inside and out - my 8 GT 6mt w/Nav was much, much "richer" looking inside and out - I just could not pull the ownership trigger. I loved the M5 I used to have too, until it started having failures (with less than 15k on the clock) and left me stranded 2 month in a row. So like the 8 it had to go. The 8 stereo was not too good and the odd-ball design and Bose amps means no cheap upgrade - the S is a standard DIN stereo with standard size door speakers.

The S has little insulation sound or temp, just look under the fender wells or under the dash. It is a bare bones sports car - but has some luxury touches like leather, power roof, etc.

I went back and looked at the deal on my 05 S, it was $200-300 under invoice including the dealer doc fee. The MF was higher but the residual was as well, which along with the lower invoice back in 05 equalled a better deal. I think around $30 a month less that the deal today. The best price I have gotten so far on an 08 S is invoice plus dealer fee, but I think they will do it for invoice including the fee once I push them a bit. Since I still have a few months to go on my current lease, I think I will wait and see if the deals getting any better. After all, I have one to drive now and worst case I will just buy mine at lease end if nothing better comes up. I have been watching the S lease numbers for a while and even though they have not been selling well at all, Honda has not been doing really cheap leases - so this could be as good as it gets. Really no way for us to know.

Dennis

23109vc · January 2008

Dennis-

sent you an email. don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into an RX8 vs S2k discussion.

this is the s2k lease forum.

as for the lease deals - my goal is to get the car AT or below invoice and then use the attractive MF to get the lowest possible payment. the residuals looks average.

one question is this - my local dealer has 4 2007s and 2 2008s. the lease deal is only applicable to the 08s.

i'm knowledgeable enough about leases to understand how they work, what the different terms all mean, etc. i've read all the tutorials on leases and have leased two cars in the past.

for a toy car like an s2k - that i'll be driving short distances...and a car like the s2k that has a reputation for having great reliability...part of me wonders if i'd want to buy it and then keep it for 6-7 years. given the low mileage i'd put on it - it would probably last at LEAST that long for me. i'm not going to be commuting 100 miles a day in it. I will probably drive it to work - but i live 5 miles from the office - so a few hundred miles a month in commuting to work and then whatever I can put on it during evenings weekends.

i'm almost wondering if I'd be able to use up the 12k/year - probably not. i bet i'd be more like 5-7k.

so lets say I negotiate a purchse on a 2007 and there is some kind of incentive and I can get the purchase price down to about 28000 or so. the prices paid forum has guys claiming that's about what they paid. i'm guessing the 08s would sell at invoice, so 31500 or so.

so i can buy a new 07 and save 3500 or so. or lease an 08 and have the low MF. if I buy, i'd put a small amount down, say 3k and finance over the length of time i plan to own - say 72 months. the payment over 72 months is $457.

now on the lease, it's only 3 years. so in three years, I own nothing and have to turn it in. with the purchase, at the end of the payments I own the car. so you have to try to estimate what the car would be worth at the end of the payments, and then look at what you spent along the way.

to try and get an idea what a 6 year old s2k is worth, i hit kbb.com. i know the estimates are usually optimistically high...but for kicks, i put in a 2001 S2000 with 75000 miles. it claims a private party value is 15000. it says trade in is 10-12k. so lets assume the lowest value - it's worth $10,000 at the end of 7 years.

if I put down 3000 on the purchase, then pay $457/month for 72 months, plus my 3000 down payment, i've paid roughly $36000 for the car. and once i've paid all that mney, i have an asset with a value of about $10k were i to sell or trade it. so if you factor in the value of the asset, my net costs were really 26,000.

the lease for 3 years is $350/month with 3000 down. that comes out to about $15,600 over 36 months. if you threoretically did two of these leases back to back (yeah you can't b/c there won't be an s2k in 2011, but assume you found something comparable for the same deal) then you're net costs are about 31000.

31,000 - 26000 = 5000. So in the long run, you technically are 5000 "ahead" by purchasing the s2k and owning it outright. unless along the 72 months you have 5000 in repairs that you would NOT have on the leased cars. i can see some repairs being done but not 5k worth.

another upside to the lease scenario is that you have a NEW car from years 1-3 and then another NEW car from years 4-6. there are obvious upsides to having a new car vs a used/older one.

if you spread the 5000 "extra" across the 72 month period, you are essentially paying $70/month MORE to lease than to own - in the long run. in the short run you pay LESS by about $100/month. so if cash flow is tight, lease. but you won't have anythign to show for it in the end. just the fun of having the car while you pay.
if you buy, and you really like the car, years 7+ become gravy. NO payment, just drive it, enjoy it, and maintain it. costs will go way way down.

of course you know in 7 years there will be all new cars, and the s2k, as cool as you think it is now, will be "old" and a car nut like me will want something new. so

the whole lease vs buy thing is a hard call. there are short term benefits to leasing, but the purchase wins out in the long run. i think.

anyone care to correct my math? or point out wher my logic may be flawed?

as far as the lease deal is now - it seems good. it might get better, but probably not a whole lot.

accelerator · January 2008

I'm going off of memory here but you should get the idea...

There have been arguments here that you can purchase the S at some $500/month and given the low mileage you expect to put on the car, you could sell it in 3-5 years and due to the lower miles than most, be able to sell it for a bit more than it is worth and make back some of the money you spent each month. Now, keep in mind that the S is slowing in sales so it might be harder to sell this in a 7 years as you posted (the car will essentially have been around for 14 years at this point). I ran through the exact debate you are going through right now. For me, money was huge factor and quite frankly, I couldn't afford to buy it unless I extended it for 6 or 7 year purchase which is nuts for the amount of miles I drive in a year. I found a dealership willing to let one go for $27,500 plus TTL. I could afford a 3 year lease but I didn't think I'd be ready to give up the S in 3 years but 4 years, I thought just maybe. After 4 years, if I still love this car, I'll buy it and possible negotiate an even lower price than what the residual is stated to be worth (if Honda is having trouble moving them now, hopefully, they'll have tough time moving them later). If not, I walk away a VERY satisfied driver. I've had my S since may of 2007 and almost 10,000 miles later, I still am very much in love with this car (it is a daily love affair). I'm still on the fence as to whether I"ll buy it or not; it will probably all depend on where I am financially in life in a few more years. If I can afford a 2nd beater car and save the S for the weekends, then I'll buy the S and give it a break from the daily driver duties.

On a side note about finances, the difference of my lease and what my purchase car payement would be, I do invest the difference into an emmigrant account which makes about 4.5% right now, which is signifcanntly higher than my interest rate negotiated on my lease rate.

So, by leasing, I've also managed to save/invest almost $1700 to date. Over the entire lease term, I'll have invested almost $10,000.

dwynne · January 2008

Honda can't sell S2000s, even with cheap promo lease deals and/or huge dealer incentives. Heck, they have as much as $2,500 IIRC on 07s last year and I know most dealers still have several of those on the lot.

This means you are going to have trouble selling a used one - if Honda is selling them for $27,500 new then that depresses the whole market.

That said, if you can lease one now cheap (the current deal is 1.3% effective) then I would do the lease, then perhaps buy rather than buy outright. At the end of the lease you can try to sell the car, trade it, turn it in, or buy it. If you run the numbers, paying a new car payment at the current rates VS leasing then buying at used car rates (which are higher than new rates) will probably come out $1k or $2k behind doing lease/buy than doing buy. Your actual number will vary and could be closer to $1k., You can't know the used car rate in 3 years either. I figure if you get the lease/buy that close to buy then go for it then all the options are in your hands. If you buy on a long loan you may well be upside down in 3 years and CAN'T get out of the car.

The glory days of high residuals are gone now. My first S was an 01 and IIRC I paid $27,500 for it (used with 1,700 miles on it) and the 3/36 residual for it was around $19,500. At the time the lease was up the car would be over 4 years old. The residual on my 05 (new for $30,000) is just under $20k. The residual on the new 08 ($32k invoice) is under $20k. So the price goes up and the residual stays the same or goes down.

Dennis

23109vc · January 2008

I'm leaning toward the lease.

a big factor is that this is a "toy" purchase. you know, with the economy the way it is, part of me even wonders if i would be smarter to just wait 6 months and THEN see what the deals are like. My job, luckily, is public safety/gov't - so while nobody is 100% immune to layoffs/etc... i'm about as insulated as one can get. we may have hiring freezes, or no cost of living adjustments, no raises, but the odds of being let go - at my seniority level - not going to happen. so that being said, i'm comfortable biting off a toy purchase even with the problems we are facing, but i'm more than happy to wait if the deals will get a LOT sweeter.

since this is a toy purchase, and while I make a good living, i'm NOT independently wealthy, and do have two other cars to pay for, and 3 little mouths to feed at home - the lower i can keep the monthly costs the better. leasing gives me a lower monthly payment - and like Dennis said, my options are open. if i love the car and don't puta lot of miles on it, and it's worth more than my residual, i can buy it and in the end, i really won't be that worse off than had i bought at the get go.

i still think about the rx8, but for a car that is just for ME - the s2k is the way to go. right now, i drive my POS volvo to work, and every mile i drive i think how much i hate the car. it's not really that i hate it, it's that I hate NOT having a fun car. so I "take it out" on my daily driver/commuter which really is a GREAT car for what it is. but having an s2k to drive to/from work - to redline the stink out of it and have the wind in my hair on nice sunny southern CA days - what a blast. of course convincing my wife that I should take off on sat / sun morning for a drive by myself, while she stays at home with 3 kids is gonna be a tough sell. although, once I get her away on a few all day drives, and the kids are left at home with a sitter - I think she'll see how much fun it will be.

i don't know about you guys, but to me - driving a sports car is like stress therapy. havin ga fun car to drive, a truly fun car like an s2k or a boxster, an rx8, a miata, or anything that plasters a smile on your face as you listen to the motor, shift the gears - it's a stress reliever, mental health booster - whatever you want to call it.

i'd rather to for a 30 minute drive, bang off the rev limiter and get my fix that way instead of going home and having a makers mark.

bernat · January 2008

Just saw this listed on Miller Honda's website (Van Nuys, CA):
(I did not see it posted before, sorry if it is a re-post)
**************************************************************************

Offer good from 01/03/2008 to 03/03/2008

2008 S2000 Featured Special Lease
$349.00 per month for 36 months. $2,499.00 total due at signing.
Includes down payment with no security deposit. Excludes taxes, titles and fees. For well-qualified buyers.

FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 S2000 Manual Transmission (Model AP2148ENW) for $349.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,555.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; with no security deposit. Total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify. See dealer for complete details.

dwynne · January 2008

It is the same as posted on the Honda web page, the numbers work out to a low 0.00054 MF (1.30% equivalent) with a so-so 56% residual. The net is a pretty good lease deal, but not quite a good (payment-wise) as they have done in the past.

Dennis

23109vc · January 2008

the money factor is good. I think Honda Finance can set the MF where they want. But the residual - is probably more or less something that gets set based on what their actuarial tables (or whatever you call them) predict the car will be worth. then they fudge around with what kind of a MF they can or are willing to do to get the total $$ of the lease to a level that will still profit something and attract buyers.

the deal is pretty good though. if I were READY to pull the trigger, I wouldn't not do it just to try and save another $15-20/month.

I may end up having to wait at least 30-60 more days. Honda's website said the current deal is good until 03/03/08.

It's anyone's guess if the deal will get BETTER or not after that date. If I had to guess I would suspect it will stay about the same or get slightly better.

Just before the end of the year, I was looking at the Acura TL. the MF on that was .00081. the "then" deal expired on 01/03/08. Everyone on the TL forum was guessing whether the deal would end or not after the 3rd. well the residual droped a %, but the MF was reduced even further, so that the effective price you would pay stayed almost exactly the same.

if you figure the S2000 sales stink just like the TL sales do, and the S2k is being discontinued...as is the third gen TL, due to the 09 being a redesigned model - my guess is that come 3/8, HOnda will keep the deal the same to move the remaining cars, or it might get better. the residuals may drop, but the MF may drop too. maybe they will make the deal better. maybe not. I'd be VERY suprised if they made the deals WORSE. good luck seling an s2k when a customer comes in expecting the current lease deal, only to be told "oh sorry we cancelled that deal, you'll hae to pay an extra $50/month"...customer will get that sour grapes FU attitude and say bite me and walk. so they probably will keep the deal in place. at least if I was gonna bet on it, that's what I would put my money on.

the economy sucks right now. cars are sitting on lots. and s2ks are NOT selling nearly as well as everythign else. it's a two seater impractical car that is about to get discontinue and has been around a long time...it's not exactly flying off the shelf.

don't get me wrong, I want one. but ONLY for a smokin' deal.

now what color do I want...

dwynne · January 2008

The difference is when they get the cars back at the end of the lease and can't get 65% or whatever of MSRP for them. The captive lease banks usually do several points over the ALG residual the 3rd party banks do then money with the MF to make the deal sweet or sour. They know if the MF is high (like the 08 Accords) and you try to go 3rd party lease the lower real-world MF that the 3rd party bank is using will net out the same or ever higher payment than they get using an inflated residual and a high MF.

When they want to make a deal sweet they go with a really low MF, unrealistically high residual, or both at the same time.

The ALG residual on a new 08 S2000 is 50% but the AHFC residual is 56% and the couple that with a 0.00054 MF (vs 0.00230-0.00240 real world). So in this case a 3rd party lease is not even close.

We had folks wait before trying to get a better rate and it never happened. Other times a great rate would get even better. Unless they bump up the residual they can't lower this rate by much - and if they did it would not change the payment by much. If they dropped it to the 0.00014 they have on the Pilot the S payment would go down about $20 per month. Which is not all that much, in the grand scheme of things.

I got mine in the summer of 05, which you would THINK would not be the good time to get a deal on a convertible. I would think spring is the WORST time since in most place it is top down time with only the far north being still too cold. Once summer hits it is too hot in the south to sell lots of convertibles. Right not is a too cold (for most folks) for top down driving in most parts of the country so sales will be slow and we think deals good.

If I lived where I could drive top down NOW and didn't already have a convertible, I would try to find a dealer willing to go invoice including fees on an 08 and do the lease. Then not only do you get a nice deal you start driving NOW. In 3 or 4 months if the lease deals are a LITTLE better you will have been enjoying driving all those months. If the deals don't get better, then you wasted the time you could be driving a convertible. If you live where it is way too cold for top down driving, you may can get one for even less - the dealer is looking at several on the lot and months before warmer weather arrives so may be willing to take more of a beating on the price to make a sale NOW rather than hang on to try to make a little more months down the road. I once leased a new 'vette convertible sight-unseen from a dealer north of Green Bay in December. He even paid 1/2 the haul charge to have to brought to me. I guess he knew if I didn't take it he could be looking at in (on his showroom floor) for 6 months or more

.

Funny story, the "Internet sales manager" at a Honda dealership e-mailed me today saying it was "taking too much time answering all my questions and e-mails" and I needed to "come in and pick out a car and they would make me the best possible deal" on it. Give me a break. I don't go onto a car lot without a deal in place - that is WHY I deal with the Internet folks - I want the rock bottom price and THEN I come in, pick out a car, and sign the papers. I don't start negotiating on the lot.

Dennis

23109vc · January 2008

you are so right about NOT making the deal on the lot.

I learned that with my MDX. I had plenty of dealers refuse to deal via the phone or internet and insisted I "come down and then I will give you a great deal". I politely told them I had a great deal in writing from dealer X, and I'd like them to beat it to earn my business and fax me the deal in writing. Some played and faxed the offer, but many gave me "you have to come down" line.

One guy was upfront. he said "you probably aren't in my immediate area, and you're just using me to drive down the price, then you'll take my offer to some other dealer, and they will get your business". that's almost exactly what he said. he was sort of right..but i guess they get enough guys like us that some of them get fed up with it. oh well, that's their job - to make offers, and try to sell cars. some just want some sucker to come ont he lot and tell them "how much they have to have this car".

I'm sold on the s2k. i just need to finish selling my wife on it.

she's not 100% thrilled at the idea of me getting a two seater. I think she assumes that I'll drive off into the sunset and not come home all day - and leave here home with the kids.

I just want something cool to drive to/from work so each day I get a sports car "fix".

dwynne · January 2008

Just wondering.

Several folks were talking about it when the new deals showed up, but I didn't see anyone post that they pull the trigger on a lease deal.

I talked to the dealer we just leased our Pilot through (super deal) and they would lease me the new S for $500 under invoice (IIRC) but would only allow $17.5k to $19k trade on my 05. So I will have to wait for my 05 lease to end and see there are any good deals at that time, or just sell my S retail, or do as I had originally planned and buy my S at lease end.

Dennis

accelerator · January 2008

Good luck with that! 7 months later and my wife (no kids) are still not thrilled with the car. You can try the gas mileage angle but with so many other cars now getting 30+ mpg, it might be a bit hard.

dwynne · January 2008

My wife love riding in the S, what is not to love

? She does not care for driving it, but if the weather is nice she is always willing to go for a ride. Though it is smaller inside and trunk space, she likes it more than the C5 'vette I had and for sure better than the Miata M.

Dennis

23109vc · February 2008

i saw on another board that this past friday, Honda bumped up the dealer cash incentives on some models. not sure which ones.

did the s2000 get more cash behind it to sweeten the deals?

CarMan@Edmunds · February 2008

Hey 23109vc. Honda did raise its dealer cash on the 2008 Pilot and Ridgeline a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately it did not introduce any on the 2008 S2000. At least there is a special lease program on it.

Car_man
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Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum

dwynne · March 2008

is up. Not much change. The MF is down to 0.00035 (from 0.00054) but the residual has dropped 1% to 55% from 56%. The net effect is the "special" pre-figured lease is the same as last month. $2,500 and signing gets you $349 per month - plus taxes, etc.

Just like before, the deal as figured is OK but you can negotiate the price of the car down and you certainly do not have to put down $2,500. Once you have a nice price, then roll everything into the lease except maybe first payment and see how it looks. Don't sink your money into a lease at 0.84% effective financing - keep your money in the bank and use Honda's cheap money. So what if the payment is higher? You are still driving and S on the cheap

.

Now if Honda would put some dealer money on these on TOP of the cheap lease, then we would have something.

Dennis

23109vc · April 2008

i test drove a used boxster. OMFG. so much nicer. the sound alone was intoxicating. i know honda is more reliable...but wow. decisions.

dwynne · April 2008

No doubt they are nice cars, but you have to be rich (or a mechanic) to own and maintain one. IIRC they have to drop the motor to change spark plugs, for example

.

If you are just looking for a sunny day car that will not see a lot of miles, then you might be OK. If you are looking for a daily drive that you will have to depend on and maintain then the "total cost of ownership" for any Porsche is something to consider.

BTW, it looks like for April the S2000 lease deal is carried on the same as it was. Pretty nice, but they have had better deals (but not in a while).

Dennis

dwynne · June 2008

Vehicle: 2008 Honda S2000 in New Formula Red and black leather

Options: none

MSRP: $34,935
Invoice: $31,689

My price for the car, destination, and dealer fee: $30,247.37
Acquisition Fee: $595
Final Cap Cost: $30,842.37

Lease term: 36 months
Allowed Miles: 12k per year
Residual: $18,864.49 (54%)
Money Factor: 0.00073
Security Deposit: Waived

Base Payment: $369.00
With State Tax: $394.84

Amount paid at signing: first payment and $83 in tax

Note that there is a $1,000 dealer incentive for AHFC leased S2000s that is not available if you purchase the car. They do offer 0.9% to 2.9% financing, but the lease is at 1.752% effective interest and the $1k incentive wipes out the $595 bank fee and lowers the price $405 (in effect) so I think you would be nuts to buy the car .

The lease deal shown on the Honda web page runs from 5/1 to 7/7 so I assume the MF and residual will be the same through that time.

Dennis

23109vc · June 2008

Dennis-

so did you get a new one??? I've seen you post here several times - a few times replying to my threads.... i know you had an older model and were thinking of upgrading to a new S2000.

I am very much interested in a two seat roadster. at the moment i'm torn between leasing a new S2k or buying a used boxster. my dad is selling his 2000 base - highly optioned including 18" wheels, heated seats, full leather, upgraded lights/tails, and M030 (super stiff suspension package) - it's only 217 hp, but having driven an S2k, the 217hp base boxster feels faster due to having more torque... the sound of the boxster is musical....amazing. but buying a car with 50-75k miles means itw ill require repairs. i could buy his car for 14-15k and have a payment lower than the s2k lease... but i've make up the difference with repair costs,e tc.

decisions.

maybe i'll have to test drive an s2k again.

you think there is any more room to improve on the deal you got? your deal sounds very good. you put essentially nothing down..or just the payment + tax so lets say $500 or so.

last time i went in they wanted something like 2-3k down and then they quoted me a monthly about what you are paying.

i would lke to think I could get the car down to about 350 with tax... so shave another 50/month off... but over a 36 month lease, that's almost another $2000... not sure i can shave THAT much off the car.

$400/month with virtually nothing down for a brand new s2k lease and 12k/year..is a great deal. it will run like a top... and after having driven a bone stock s2k, i can say that while you COULD modify it to make it faster/handle better - the car does NOT need it.

i've modified a lot of my former cars...and the s2k is one that you really coudl drive bone stock and love it every minute. same for the boxster. they are amazing cars right out of the box.

i'm gonna have to look into the s2k lease some more. the deals sound pretty tempting.

how is the new car Dennis??? better than the old one or is it the same, just all new?

dwynne · June 2008

I think my car was priced into all but $250 or so of the hold back. Unless the incentives get better, the lease rate gets cheaper, or both I would not think you could do much better leasing an 08 S2000.

I posed the residual and the money factory, you should concentrate on negotiating the lowest possible selling price on the car. Keep in mind the $1k dealer lease incentive. Once you have that, you plug that number into a lease calc and work out your payments.

The boxster is a nice car, the boxster s is a VERY nice car - but a whole lot more money than an S. Yes a used example is cheaper but would probably still be about as much as a new S. Get a used S, and things really start to get inexpensive. My 05 could be had for maybe $21,500 for example

.

The newer car has different seats, drive by wire throttle, stability control, and several other changes but it basically drives and feels the same to me - just newer.

Dennis

accelerator · June 2008

And that new car smell! Don't forget the new car smell!

23109vc · June 2008

Dennis-

your deal sounds pretty good. I'm really thinking about doing another test drive.

the pricing right now is very attractive. I'm basically torn between the boxster or boxster S and the S2k. the boxster is the car i honestly like better - but to get a NEW boxster would be way way way out of my price range. I'd be looking at 2000-2002 models at most...and buying a used one in the 20k range. I've seen nice base AND S models in that price range with 30-50k on the car and some with extended warranties that would buy me a couple years of peace of mind.

the big downside to the porsche is that it's got to be more expensive to keep running. I could basically get a NEW S2k and have a payment of about $400/mnth with no out of pocket money. for a used porsche to have that total cost of ownershp...I'd probably have to stick with a used, higher mileage car...

the one apples/orange part of the comparo though, is that if I bought a used boxster, at the end of the loan term, say I went 4-6 years - i coudl keep the payment low by stretching it out a while, and at the end of the term, id' own it. say I did a 4 year loan on a car that cost me $20k and had roughly 50k on the car. assuming 10-12k/year driving - the car would have 90-100k on it at the end of the loan, and i honestly don't know what it woudl be worth then, but i'm guessing in the 10-12k range or so. so say it's wroth 10k....i'd spend 20-23k in total cost + financing fees, plus say another 4-5k in repairs/mainteneance...which puts my total cost at 28k worst case scenario...minus the 10k ti's wroth when the loan is over and my net cost is 18k.

the S2000 is less than that - and while it's "not a porsche", i'd have ZERO reliability/repair issues and my only "job" woudl be to make my payment, and drive the stink out of the car and enjoy it.

it's very hard to compare loans to leases.

I guess I always could consider a used S2k...like an 05 or 06 and try to get a sweet one for artound 20k. then i coudl do an apples/apples comparo to the boxster... you know the s2k will cost me less to maintain. not sure which would have a better residual in 4-5 years. for 20k i'd be getting a slightly newer lower mileage s2k....for sure. 05 or 06 model vs a 00-02 model porsche.

both cars have their pros/cons.

my heart wants the boxster but my pocketbook likes the s2k.

dwynne · June 2008

Unless it was a factory backed extended warranty, I would worry about getting any repairs done. Without a warranty I would make sure I had lots of spare money laying around to pay for repairs. The bad news is the dealer will be silly high on parts and repairs, the good news is that the high dealer prices usually mean there and some independent shops around who can take care of the car.

Check insurance rates as well, a used boxster may cost more to insure than even a new S2000.

As a point of reference, my 05 S2000 with 12k on it and a 7 yr (4 left), 75k, $0 deductible HondaCare warranty on it would be about $21.5k or a bit less as it sits.

Like I said before, the boxster is a nice car and the s is a great car but they are a lot of money new or used and when they break

.

Dennis

kyfdx · June 2008

my heart wants the boxster but my pocketbook likes the s2k.

The eternal dilemma..

In my experience, buying a used Porsche will only save you on depreciation.. it will be as expensive to maintain as a new one (or more), and then you have the repair issues.. Even a used Boxster in the $20K-$25K range will be more expensive over 3 years than the S2000 lease..

The usual advice on buying used Porsches is to get the newest, lowest mileage model that you can afford, as that will be cheaper in the long run.. I think that is telling advice about how expensive owning a Porsche can be..

But, no point in dropping over $400/mo. on an S2000, if you regret it every time you see a Boxster drive by..

regards,
kyfdx
(done the Porsche thing)

23109vc · June 2008

I need to test drive the two cars back to back to see just HOW much more I really like the porsche.

i drove the s2000 twice. once with the top up and once with the top down. the top down trip - was a much longer test drive, on twisty roads,a nd i absolutely loved it. the only thing i HATE is the tach. that digital thing is so nasty. the boxster has a nice huge center tach which i like.

i'll keep you all posted!!

23109vc · June 2008

when I first started looking at a small sporty car, I was really drawn to the RX8. i looked at both the rx8 and s2k. each has pros/cons.

i would have liked either car - the s2k for being more performance for themoney and top down fun. the rx8 had more practicality/usability and was more comfortable.

the only rx8s i liked were more heavily optioned and at that price level the s2k was a better buy.

now mazda has released the 09s and they have an r3 trim level. stiffer suspension, cool body kit, awesome seats... differetn rear end ratio on all new 8s supposedly make it quicker off the line and accelerate better at lower speeds.

i have yet to test drvie one, but with this newer suspension, i wonder fi the new rx8 will have that "soft" feeling gone and feel more like the s2k - stiff and sportier feeling.

the new r3 version looks very cool too.

anyone test drive the r3 yet and compare it to an s2k?

accelerator · June 2008

I love the RX8 so no disprect for that car, just reminding you of the rising oil costs and the RX8 is an oil burner.

Now, pardon me while I go look at the '09 RX8 to see what exactly you are talking about!

I'll have to see it in person but not too bad.

23109vc · June 2008

i wonder if it makes more sense to do the lease of a new 08 or find a leftover 07?

i would think an 07 could be had for 28k or so...at most. mylocal dealer said they woudl sell their leftover 07s for 28k and that was just off the phone. if i was there, willing to sign up and take it away, they might go even lower.

how cheap can you buy an 07 for now? would it make more financial sense to buy at the cheaper price for an 07 or lease an 08?

even wiht a great APR, I would think the monthly payment for a purchase is goig
n to be quite a bit higher unless you do some sort of crazy long payment plan...

i think the lease is the way to go. anyone disagree?

i would assume the cost of a 36 month least, double it and then compare that to financing the 07 over 72 months.

although hard to say you could lease the same car for the same price in 3 years. but to make an apples/apples comparison in terms of total costs... i would think that the lease would be better as the monthly payment on a 6 year loan woudl be close to the lease payments...and the lease would never really need much repairs..while the s2k will start costing to repair in years 4-5-6.

although in the end of the loan you own something, vs own nothign on the lease.

anyone care to figure that one out??

dwynne · June 2008

Haven't we had this discussion before?

I had an 05 RX-8 GT 6mt w/Nav and while I like the car, it drank gas like a Hummer (15-16 mpg commuting) and drank a good bit of oil. On a trip, all Interstate, to pick up my daughter's new Civic I got about 19 mpg and that was fill, Interstate, fill. Truly terrible miles for a car with not much power and not large or heavy. Resale value was as bad as a Suzuki or Kia. Smooth motor, but no torque. Classy looking interior, but crummy Bose stereo that can't be easily upgraded. Way out of date Nav (my 05 came with an 03 disc) with non-existent upgrades. Nice handling without a stiff ride. I returned it lease end as I could not find a buyer and did not want to over pay for it buying it out and didn't want to own something with such a sharp decline in value. Long term worries about the motor as well, but this has been eased somewhat by the new long rotary powertrain warranty from Mazda. It would cover by 05 retroactively, if I still had it.

I replaced the 8 some months later with a G37. More power, gobs more torque, better everything (except weight). Gets 17 mpg around town and well into the 20's on the road.

I am now on my 3rd S2000, a new 08 after the 05 and 01 cars I had previously. I get 23-24 mpg commuting and around 28 mpg on the highway - all with the top down. With the $1k lease incentive I got mine "real cheap" and the lease rate is low as well. I little more sparse in the sound deadening and luxury appointments, but that is OK. Stereo is pretty good and uses normal DIN head unit and standard size speakers so upgrades are easy. Not much room, not much space. True sports car handling and (to me) not that rough of a ride. Staggered tire sizes front and rear mean no rotating possible and super soft tires mean 12k to 16k and you will be buying new rear tires (unless you just poke along). Resale value, once very, very strong for S2000s is more normal now and is on the decline.

I have not driven the r3 and probably will not. The differences might make a little difference, but it looks like if you get the package you miss out on things (like heated seats) you would get if you got the GT model. Is it a limited production model? If so, then no deals. Even if not, they just launched so probably no deals or incentives for quite some time.

If I were looking for a coupe today, I might wander down to the BMW dealer and test drive the 135 . If I wanted a convertible, I would find a Honda dealer willing to price a new 08 down into the hold back (as I did)

.

Dennis

dwynne · June 2008

Did you check my lease deal post just a few messages up?

MSRP: $34,935
Invoice: $31,689

My price for the car, destination, and dealer fee: $30,247.37

and that is with a cheap lease too. If you buy, the price would be higher by $1k but you could do the 2.9% financing for 60 months.

Run the numbers for yourself and see how it looks. $31,300 at 2.9% for 60 would be $561 per month. $28k at 5.29% is $532. If your credit union has a lower rate, then you could get a lower payment. That is ASSUMING they will give you new car rate money on a left over 2007 car - many banks will not.

You will be upside down on the loan no matter if you do an 08 or 07, but will stay upside down a lot longer (and for more money) on the 07.

You will not be able to get a good lease on a left over car, so that is out.

If you lease an 08 then the $1k dealer incentive applies but you have to add the $595 bank fee. Still, the net is $405 CHEAPER in cost if you lease. Since the lease MF has a low interest rate (1.75%) you should come out just fine leasing the car, then buying it in 3 years if you decide to keep it. You start out at a cheaper price and pay less interest now - but you will likely have to pay more interest to buy it out (again depending on your bank or credit union's rate at that time). If you decide it is time for something else, no worries about the eroding resale value if you lease - just turn it in at lease end and walk away.

Dennis

bonvivant · June 2008

Many thanks for your comments. I've been trailing this discussion and can identify with many points of view. Yeah, the Porsche dilemma. Cost of owning a new S 2000 after five years is said to be ~ $60K and the Boxster about half again as much. For an old guy facing declining income and maybe one last roadster, the Porsche seems like too steep a hill. I haven't spent enough time behind the wheel of any open car lately to know which would be the easiest to live with. A Miata looks like the default ride if I can't make a low to mid $30K deal on an S2000 as described.

I lived with an MGB and Alfa Spyder in the 60s, but I was in my 20s.

The SF Bay Area, I think, may still be one of the stronger regions for the S, so it'll be a test to see if I can find a dealer who wants to make a quick sale at low profit. I bought an M3 in '99 from a dealer group which owns the local Honda store, and they screwed with the money factor in the fine print of my lease. I didn't pick up on it till I went home and ran the numbers. They were dinking me for about fifty bucks a month by claiming the disparity in what was quoted verbally and what emerged in writing was the result of mysterious fees, and that it would somehow be made up with lower residual. (My first lease: I was a babe in the woods.) The good news is that after some internal churning and several spirited talks with the GM and a letter to the CEO, they reissued the lease with the correct figures. I was lucky, I guess, but needless to say the prospect of buying from this closest outlet gives me pause. I intend to see who'll work with me by email and phone, because I just can't do the on-site dealer dance one more time.

23109vc · June 2008

i think your figures are wrong. $60k total cost to own a new S2k after 5 years? I think you mean the total cost would be the cost of the car - like $30k or so. yeah, there will be finance charges and maintenance, but not another 30k worth...

maybe you meant 60k for the PORSCHE?? and half for the s2k?!

a new porsche - yeah. big costs. i'd never buy a new porsche, not NOW. i'd be looking at a used one if I got one at all. you can get nice low mileage used boxsters for about the cost of a new s2k. if you have 30k to BUY - you could get yourself a nice boxster. probably an 04-05 base with low miles. get one with an extended warranty, and you'd be doing pretty well.

if you compare buying a used porsche vs leasing a new S2000 - however, you stat to get monthly costs that come near close and the s2k has the benefit of NO repair bills at a porsche dealer.

the big unknown on a used porsche is the repairs. could be low and could nickel and dime you to death.

given my situation - i am interested in something with a high bang / buck value. a used porsche boxster would be perfect if I had a crystal ball and knew I could pickup a nice 2000 model with 65k miles, and have MINIMAL repairs... you can buy these for 15k. (although you can buy USED s2ks in this price poijnt too that are 05 model - with very low miles like 25-40k on them.

the porsche is a neat car. the one i drove had an upgraded suspension, 18s,a nd the sound of that motor is amazing. go to youtube and put in boxster and exhaust and listen to some of the clips of those things. the sound is intoxicating. very cool. the s2k sounds okay, but the s2k is almost obnoxious sounding if you compare it to a boxster. sorry.

the s2ks big appeal is that it does everything the boxster can do in terms of performance for half the money with bullet proof reliability. if you can live without the "porsche" image - it is a lot of car for the money.

one nagging thing is the s2k dash. I am not kidding - I FRICKIN HATE the bargraph dash thing. i think it's an eyesore and disgusting. the boxster has a nice big basic tach which I love. every second you sit in the car and look at the dash you see that . the S2000 dash just drives me up the wall - why they did that awful bargraph thing is beyond me.

do any of you like it, love it? did you hate it then get used to it? does it have ANY benefit in terms of visibility or redline notification..does it all flash at you to shift or something... i still think it's fugly.

aramism · June 2008

well im planning on getting an s2000 lease in ny very soon.

ive never put a penny up front except dmv and first months so i am hoping to get this car in the 300's somewhere with 300-400 upfront total with everything.

my mother actually has a civic that is on an extended lease that i am currently driving. i just got out of an 06 infi m45 sport last month and being that my mom had a few months left on an extended 03 civic lease and she got a new jetta so i figured i can take a few months to decide what to get and save some money as the payment on th civic is like 200 a month.

so hopefully if she co-registers there will be additional discount since the s2000 is coming out of a civic lease so honda -> honda.

based on this business do you think the MF and such will be better after the july 7th promotion because im probably not going to be able by july 7th to get this car and that is when the promotion expires. any thoughts?

dwynne · June 2008

To be honest, once you are used to driving a new to you car you will not be looking at the tach anyway. If you are paying attention, every engine tells you by sound and feel when it needs to be shifted. Sure, not used to a 8.5k or 8k redline will have you shifting too soon unless you stare at the tach but once you get used to the car then you will never need to watch - just drive. Or at least that is the case for me.

The one car I owned which was hard to drive this way was an RX-8. The rotary was so SMOOOOOTH and pulled right up to and through redline that the factory added a pre-redline shift alert. Once you got close to redline it would beep to tell you that you were about about of RPMs. That came in very handy for driving without watching the tach.

One thing I really like now is a digital speedometer. I had a heads up display in my C5 'vette and it was so much nicer than the analog gauge. Then the S2000s I have own have all been digital readout as was the RX-8. I love it, I want to know I am going 58 and not "something between 55 and 60" and you can tell with a digital gauge at a glance. I put ScanGauge IIs in all the cars so they all have a digital (and correctable) speedometers.

I can share the desire for the boxster. Heck, I have wanted an NSX every since they launched and I have a nice scale model of one on my desk (along with some others) but I have given up on owning one. By the time the price drops to what I would pay they are all really old and / or really high mile. I had a friend that had a couple so I have been able to drive one, just not in the cards to own one. If you can get your dream car, then you should. Just get a good deal on a nice example so if your dream turns into a nightmare you can unload it without losing too much.

Dennis

dwynne · June 2008

The current rate and residual combination is a little better than what was in the prior deal, what makes now a nice time is the $1k dealer incentive on top of the lease. None of us knows what Honda will do after the current deals expire, could be better deals for leases or could be worse. For SALES it might be better but I am not sure a cheaper lease deal will be coming - but that is just a guess on my part.

Dennis

accelerator · June 2008

Dennis, I believe you and I are kindres spirits!

It isn't in my cards to own an NSX either but holy cow do I still love them, even if they are what, 14 years old? I could almost afford to timeshare one! I also have a scale model at my office! Mine is black but anyway, back to the point...

I've always loved the digital readout, the tach's bar graph I personally find helpful, especially in the beginning of ownership. There is no staring at the dash to obtain speed or RPMs, just a quick glance and then you can focus on the road again.

bonvivant · June 2008

Just to clarify my earlier comments about cost of ownership for five years: the $60K for the S2000 vs. $90K Boxster referred to TOTAL cost of ownership, i.e., depreciation, fuel, insurance, lease/ finance costs, repairs, etc. The figures are based on near-MSRP pricing, so it's an apples to apples comparison. To further illustrate, this breaks down to ~ 85 cents a mile for an S2000 and $1.28 a mile for a Boxster. Just for ducks, a Cayman S is $1.38 a mile, a BMW 135 is $1.00 a mile and Miata is 75 cents. I'm not sure how ultimately practical such knowledge is since buying this type of car is hardly in the same realm as buying for an appliance, but is does give a rough basis for comparison. Anyway, we're not talking about Enzos or other "ultimate" cars here. ("Ultimate" is a really big category, one which only the deceased -- George Carlin and Scott Kalitta, R.I.P., are qualified to address, if they but possess the will and wherewithall.)

For all my motorheadedness, I've a practical side that hates surprises -- I still remember the day in 1972 when I walked out of my flat in San Francisco to find my recently bought '67 Sunbeam Alpine stolen. This isn't entirely apropos to this discussion except as an illustration of the vagaries of owning a sports car. I was young and foolish, and frugal, I thought, so I didn't have it insured for collision or theft.

I'm trying to illustrate the importance of abiding dependability. Throughout the last ten years of leasing, buying, then selling a '99 M3, and owning and driving an unusually entertaining Subaru Forester XT MT, which my wife now drives, I never sold my '94 Integra GSR Sedan. I'm the original owner and it's got only 71,000 miles on it. It has been completely bullet-proof. It runs up through VTech to 8200 RPM without any indication of stress. This happens less often than when it and I were younger, yet it still stirs something vital. There's no question that the sound of a Porsche at full song is about as good as it gets for mere mortals, still, the thought of ever having to tear into one of those boxer motors at this stage of life and income is daunting. Just how does one beat a Honda or other Japanese car for reliability? I didn't want to hang on to the BMW long enough to find out.

BTW, I've driven a friend's massively-Compteched NSX -- he has more money than anyone needs -- and it is BIG "I" impressive, in a far more refined way than an original '67 427 Cobra I drove in '72 ... owned by the guy who sold me the Alpine. Absolutely silly-fast, especially on the tires of that era. It was British racing green, with high-rise manifold and racing oil cooler, and had 7500 miles on it. Pristine. I could have bought it for $7500 -- mind you, this is what a new 911 cost in those days, so, as with Porsches of today, was a little rich for my blood. Sorry ... got a little off track there. Maybe, I'd be safer in a Miata after all.

23109vc · July 2008

the honda website does not show any sort of s2000 lease "special".

the local dealer said they thought the deal that had been running up to early July was no longer available.

so it the S2000 no longer a good lease deal? i held off on doing anythign thinking it would onlyh get better...but now it looks like they pulled the 1000 incentive and low MF?

oh well. i guess you snooze you lose. anyone know the current numbers on a 2008 s2000 lease?

fyi - i looked at leasing AND buying. my local dealer still has 2007 models on their lot!! they have a sign saying $6000 off MSRP on both the 07 AND the 08 models.

my guess is they may do even better on an s2000 purchase?!?! how cheap could i really get an s2k, especially if i bought an 07?

aramism · July 2008

i'm in the same boat you are. want to pick up an 08 s2k lease in july or august but could not do it in june so i am hoping they have a good lease special in july or august. anyone with info would be appreciated. i think i should be able to get this car in the 300's with nothing out of pocket. i was looking into it a few years ago and was able to get into that ballpark. @ 34k it isn't that much of a stretch to get that car for that payment.

bonvivant · July 2008

I've been kicking myself some for not going with the now expired lease program. With a lot of cash going out this month for home repairs and so-called retirement accounts sinking, I just couldn't pull the trigger. FWIW, my local dealer loaned me an 05 S from their used lot for several hours. It had 58K on the clock, and though there was evidence the car hadn't been driven lightly, it was still tight and strong. Later in the week drove a brand new Miata w/ power hardtop to satisfy my curiosity. It was nice, easier ingress/ egress, and more features. It was a GT with handling package, and just didn't feel as connected to the road. The S keeps poking at my brain. Despite an overall record month for Honda in June, there were only 273 S2000s sold across the US -- the worst June ever for the car. It sure would seem there might be more incentives coming, though maybe Honda can afford to let a low volume model just peeter out as with the old NSX.

23109vc · July 2008

what incentives if ANY are going on now for an S2000 lease OR purchase?

my local dealer has a leftover 07 that they are offering at $7000 OFF MSRP.

good deal or not? you obviously can't lease it, but could buy.

bonvivant · July 2008

Honda's offering low loan rates 0.9% for 36months and 2.9% beyond that, I believe. No such financing with a leftover 2007. Still, at ~ $27K, depreciation would be about a wash compared to an 08 at invoice, and cost basis is lower. With are no significant differences 07 vs 08, if the 07 is cosmetically new with minimal miles, seems it would be desirable -- especially if one intended to keep it for more than a few years. Some people prefer the more-than-5-spoke wheels on the 07. It's hard not to think, however, that Honda won't offer further incentives as the model year closes. Sales of the S have slowed to a crawl.

dwynne · July 2008

I love how they say "$7k off MSRP" to make it sound like a huge savings. There is about $3,200 in difference between invoice and MSRP, so the price is really $3,800 under invoice. Many dealers will deal down into hold back to sell an S, so figure that the old car would be about $3,300 cheaper than a new 08 should be.

The Edmunds incentives page shows $1k in dealer cash on the 08 if you do AHFC financing and they show rates at 0.9% to 36 months and 2.9% for 60 months. So that should make the 08 now $2,300 more than the left over 07 and less the interest you would have to pay for the loan - higher (used car rate?) for the 07 VS the cheap promo rate.

Down the road, the 08 will always be worth more money than the 07 but the difference gets less as the years go by. I would run the numbers on the 08 with the $1k dealer money and cheap rate VS the 07 with whatever your best rate is and see how it stacks up. If I was not going to save a good bit of money on the 07 I would get an 08, I guess.

Note that for 08 they revised the gauges (no big deal) and they also retuned the suspension for more "high speed stability". My 08 is still new, but I am thinking so far that this change is a bad thing. I did test drive other 08s and mine before I did the deal, but not at 9/10 speed in corners. Now my favorite clover-leaf on ramps that used to be no problem at 40 (not even near the limit) seem to be a challenge for the new car. It is early days for my car though and the 05 I had was wearing 3 to 4 32" tread on the rear tires. So as I get the new car more broken in things may improve. If they don't, I may have to look to see what is involved in "un-retuning" the suspension. But that is just me, it might be no problem for others or be preferable. I have had 3 S2000s now and the 01 was way tail happy and the 05 much less so and the 08 is tuned for more understeer or the tires have less grip (right now) or both.

Dennis

bonvivant · July 2008

Dennis,

FWIW, the following admittedly are paper abstract specs, but looking at them, I'd suspect your 08 shold be fine with some tire and chassis break-in.

According to:
http://www.s2000enthusiast.com/sec-models/my-2008 s2000/index.htm,

The 08 vs 07 chassis specs changed like this:

Front springs stiffer by 7%
Rear springs stiffer by 9%
Front damping rate >10%
Rear damping rate > 5%
Front stabilizer > to 27.2 x t5.3 from 26.5 x t4.5
Rear Stabilizer unchanged at 25.4 x t4.5

The 08 is 9 lbs. heavier, likely due to slight changes in seats (increase in seat back height)

Ed

23109vc · July 2008

so an 08 is stiffer than an 07?

bonvivant · July 2008

Yes, according to the specs. The seat of the pants experience can't be much different from previous models from what Dennis has said. The goal appears to have been increased stabilty at speed.

aramism · August 2008

(im)patiently waiting for september in hopes that they bring back some sort of lease program because i need something in the next few months so if things don't change for this car lease wise i'll be forced to get something else. anyone that has any info or advanced info please keep us updated. i wish i was in a position to get this car in june when the rate was dirt cheap. ugh.

waynetek · August 2008

to qualify for this fantastic lease rate, will a FICO of 680 do? Or do i need something higher?

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