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Sedans: My Best Choice for Fuel Economy?
With the miles being racked up on my Tercel (131K now), I thought it might be a good idea to start looking for a replacement. Considering our now European-like gas prices, the Tercel's replacement will have to be capable of achieving at least high 30's on the highway, and preferably 40's. I'm looking for something for less than $8K, which means it will have to be used and it won't be a hybrid. It also has to be at least as reliable as the Tercel, which rules out many small cars. That pretty much narrows down my choices to the Echo, Corolla, and Civic. I also want a manual transmission as these subcompacts seem to be very doggy with automatics, the fuel economy tends to be better with manuals, and manuals seem to last longer.
Maybe the most recent spike in gas prices has the prices of these small cars higher than normal, but the Civic seems to be priced abnormally higher than the rest. The Civic is definitely a well built car, but I think the prices are unjustifiably high. That pretty much leaves my choices down to the Echo and the Corolla.
The Echo would be awesome for fuel economy, but there seems to be very few of them, and of the ones you can find, every single one of them has had an auto tranny. Yuk! There seems to be lot of Corollas available, but the vast majority of them are also autos. Are people too lazy to shift these days? Any other suggestions?
Maybe the most recent spike in gas prices has the prices of these small cars higher than normal, but the Civic seems to be priced abnormally higher than the rest. The Civic is definitely a well built car, but I think the prices are unjustifiably high. That pretty much leaves my choices down to the Echo and the Corolla.
The Echo would be awesome for fuel economy, but there seems to be very few of them, and of the ones you can find, every single one of them has had an auto tranny. Yuk! There seems to be lot of Corollas available, but the vast majority of them are also autos. Are people too lazy to shift these days? Any other suggestions?
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Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, September 14, 2005 with a few thoughts on the subject.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
Only based on my experience, I would suggest an S-series Saturn (Not -Ion). You can pick them up for dirt cheap, and I have owned two of them from new (97 SL2 manual, 99SL2, slushbox). The 99 has almost 120k on it now and have had very few problems (there was that resonator and motor mount at 30k).
Just a thought. I wouldn't normally suggest an american car, but have had very good luck with Saturn and they are very inexpensive used. YMMV
Mark
The Scion felt cheap and the plastic was wobbly on the inside (of course it was cheaper than others). Edmunds didn't have nice things to say about the Echo and I have heard it's being discontinued.
Left with the civic & corolla... I really like the look and feel of both of them. I owned a Corolla in the eighties and put 180,000 miles on it before giving it to my brother-in-law. Haven't owned a civic but they have a great record.
Bottom line for me.... Price. I live in South East Texas. No dealer in Houston, Austin, San Antonio, or Dallas would go more that $300 below MSRP on the Civic. I have emailed with 14 Toyota dealers and so far my best price is $1200 off MSRP. (The Toyota is cheaper to begin with but adding the options to take it up equivalent with a Civic makes them almost similar in price.)
Just my experience... but I don't think you can go wrong with either of them...
You are right: you can't go wrong with either a Civic or a Corolla, but if price is your bottom line, I would definitely consider the Echo (if you're willing to consider used). It can be had for less than either of those models.
Also like the interior on the LE Corolla over the odd looking Civic. The Civic's dash is very cheap looking, and I could not get over that fact, since it now costs more to own, and you would think the manufacture would upgrade the interior material a little bit more.
I had my first Toyota (corolla) from 1976 to 1987. Great car!
And, I agree with you about the Honda, overpriced, no negotiating on price.
I don't buy used unless I know the car personally. Bad experiences...
I have ordered my Corolla for $1000 under MSRP and I'm happy as a clam..
As for the Echo... this page pretty much turned me against it....
http://www.edmunds.com/new/research/toyota/echo.html
I too keep my cars a long time. I have a 1999 VW Cabrio that has been a total gem and I will keep it forever or until I give it to one of my kids. The Echo just does not sound like a car that would be a keeper for me.
I drove a 2001 sl1 with a manual and often exceeded 36 mpg in city/mixed driving. Highway only would yield approx. 39mpg on regular 87 octane gas.
I did have some reliablity issues with my saturn, including a cracked engine head and many other small issues. Many of those were taken care of under the basic warrarnty.
Overall it is difficult to pick this over a civic even though Iwas able to buy a 18 month old sl for about $7100.
As a commuter I thought, and still believe that the saturn represented a strong value, especially at the gas pump.
Just a head's up, Toyota hasn't really discontinued the Echo, its just that they decided to use the same name they use elsewhere in the world, Yaris, for the new redesigned model.
Also, Honda will have the supposedly $12,000 Fit/Jazz soon.
I recently went on an agonizing search for used Corollas, and came up short. Considering the number they sell each year, there were precious few for sale that were less than about 12 years old. I guess Corolla owners love their cars eh?
The couple I came across seemed pricey for what they were, so for a few hundred $$ more, I picked up an '02 Echo. The 40 mpg is a reality, I have got 38 mpg so far in all mixed suburban driving. What Edmunds hated so much about this car, besides the looks and center gauges (which are obvious to the eye as soon as you see the car - you either hate them or you don't) was they thought it was overpriced (I believe it was, a little bit, when new) and the tricky handling at illegally high speeds. Beyond that, it is a really wonderful little car for doing what it is intended to do without feeling as cheap as it is, and owners report that it is extremely reliable, with few to no repairs needed even near six-digit odometer readings.
FWIW, I used to have a Saturn SL2, and while it was unacceptably unreliable for me, it did get 35+ mpg in mixed driving, and I know those are inexpensive on the used market, plentiful too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
IGNORE what Edmunds has to say about the ECHO. They are the ONLY source I have read that has panned it. Every other writer has nothing but praise for it. There is nothing wrong with its handling. There is nothing wrong with it having 14 inch wheels. Ive had mine for over five years now and its still wonderfull to drive. No problems at all. NOT ONE. I get 40 mpg driving it six miles to work. (in the summer) Its amazing all the things it does so well. You would do better to read the comments of the ECHO owners. Almost no one has anything bad to say about it.
It gives me the creeps to have someone post they have discounted the ECHO because of Edmunds article about it. That article is widely recognized as one of if not THE most infamous article written in the last 25 years about a car.
It won't be the lowest TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) but that is not the subject of this thread.
I couldn't get a Prius because I never learned to drive an automatic
A shifting man,
MidCow
Yes, yes, the Echo is gone now, although there are used ones out there for the taking. Or you could wait about three months and get a Yaris, with the same powertrain and estimated by Toyota to make the same fuel economy. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Echo LOL. I never considered a Echo, even the new restyled ones still look funky. There are all sorts of issues from handling, to display layout, etc ; there is a reason why Toyota is dropping the Echo. A good Toyota choice would be the 5-speed Corolla CE or the snazzy looking S model.
Another choice would be the 5-speed Scion xA or xB.
I liked the 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid and though about getting one. But i waited too long the 2006 HCH is CVT only. And perfomance pretty slow.
The Hyundai Elantra 5-speed is a choice for some. Hyundai relability has significantly improved recently and it has a fairly low TCO.
The 5-speed Honda Insight is the mileage leader and I seriously considered ordering on for $400 over invoice. And the Prius is the highest mileage sedan and has hatchback utility. My wife said the performance would not be enough for Houston traffic for the Insight, Prius or HCHand what about the 2006 Civic Si ? So now I have a Rallye Red Si on order for my commuter car.
The title of this thread is very deceptive ?
Is is sedan only ? (probably yes)
Is it highest mileage only or should TCO be considered?
(probably yes , even though it goes against title)
You know you can get a basic Cobalt or Aveo or Rio really really cheap? But sometimes cheap begets cheap!
Then there is new versus used? A good used Corolla or Civic might make the most sense.
Cheers,
MidCow
Aspirations: manual shift, relability, fun (performance, handling), looks, features, TCO
Are Prius available for $8,000 or less?
Having said that, they are not dropping this model, merely changing the name to match what it already is in the rest of the world - the Yaris. For the next-gen, due out in April, they are trading out the 2-door coupe for a 2-door hatch in the hopes it will sell better as hatchback sales have proliferated again since Y2K. There will still be a 4-door sedan, and it will still be pretty much the best choice you have in a gas-only car (here I am talking FE using EPA ratings).
"There are all sorts of issues from handling, to display layout, etc ; there is a reason why Toyota is dropping the Echo"
Handling is decent even with the older model I have with the skinny tires - beginning in '03 they made 15" rims optional with larger tires, which improved handling quite a bit I am sure, and yet maintained the EPA rating of the older cars. As for the dash layout, it will not change when the next-gen car arrives this year. Still center-mount IP.
No, I don't think we are STRICTLY sedan here, as there are good 5-door hatchbacks out there too, performing roughly the same mission. But forget SUVs and minivans, that sort of thing.
I THOUGHT it was highest fuel economy only - TCO is such an improbable guess most of the time. I assume we could consider new or used.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The title of the thread is the best mileage sedan, not the best mileage for the money sedan or lowest TCO sedan.
YMMV,
MidCow
Now the best fun per dollar car is another story
There hasn't been much A/C use except for the defrost which I run every morning on the way to work and most times it rains, which has been on and off. I don't think the compressor runs as much on defrost cycle as it does when you are cooling the car down.
I should add that 39 is exactly what I would expect to get in around-town driving in a car rated 34/41, based on 20 years of driving experience and many different cars of various EPA ratings. Or at least, I would EXPECT 38 and HOPE for 39-40! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My old 85 with a manual and 70hp got 42.
So to almost have double the hp and get similar mileage is cool.
They say the new Camry hybrid will have a 41.5 mpg combined rating. Of course, being a hybrid, I don't suppose anyone will get that figure. But if it could pull a solid 35 mpg week in and week out, that would be close to 20% better than the 4-cyl gas, and only 10% less than some of these smaller cars like Echo and Corolla. In such a big car, that would be impressive. Too big a car for me though! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's quite impressive. Someone somewhere here posted that there are future plans for a Corolla hybrid, which I had not heard. If that turns out to be true, I figure it would have Prius mileage (47 or so) at a price of $18-20K. That would be a deal.
I also noticed that both the Honda hybrids and both the Toyotas now have a 10 year/150K-mile warranty on the battery pack. In five years, I think hybrids will hit the mainstream, as I can't see any of the other up-and-coming technologies being ready for the big-time in that short a timespan.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Are Prius available for $8,000 or less?
NO, the $8000 is for the add on price and the battery pack you will need in 7 years.
The Prius is for those who what to "feel" like they are saving the earth! Good luck, because you won't be saving any money with any hybrid car.
I see just above this post someone saying there is now a 10 year warranty on the battery pack. I bet at 7 years it will still cost you 70% of original cost!
CK
Hybrids are good for those who need more space or features than those available in the small gas-sipper cars at the bottom of the market. If all you care about is getting 40 mpg or more, buy a B-segment car and call it a day.
Prius is a pretty nice car at $22K.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I replaced the brakes at 95K(very easy), tires at 60K, and today I had to have a front axle bearing replaced. That's all I've needed. Typically run it about 75mph and commute 120 miles a day. Can't beat the mileage. If I ever wear this one out, I'll be looking for another one.
I hope the new Yaris is going to be as good.
I have a 2004 TL 6 speed rated at 20/30 that actually gets 28-30 on the highway, but only 15-16 in relatively mild in-town driving. My former Honda S2000, by comparison, was rated at 20/26. It actually got 31-33 on the highway, and 21-22 in the same mild in town driving as the TL goes through.
So two cars with the same 20 mpg EPA city rating are 40% apart (15 to 21) in actual mileage. On the highway, the S2000, rated 4 mpg (15%) less than the TL, actually beats it by at least 2 mpg. I could do more accurate estimates throwing darts.
P.S. My old 1995 Nissan Maxima 5-speed was EPA rated at 22/27 and has averaged, over 155k miles, 24.1 mpg. The 2004 TL, with 21,500 miles and a higher combined EPA rating, has averaged 19.2. That is an enormous difference.
P.P.S. It doesn't exactly qualify as an economy car, but a friend of mine bought a low mileage pre-owned 2005 E320 CDI in January 2005. He paid $42k. Drove it for 25,000 mostly highway miles since, averaged 37 mpg and just sold it for $39,000. That's pretty economical, if you can afford the initial outlay.
this has not been my experience. i had an 05 corolla (5 spd) for 1 year and highway only driving consistently yielded 42+mpg. 50/50 mix of city/highway was consistently between 32-35 mpg. i stupidly traded that car for an 05 matrix, thinking how great all the cargo carrying capacity would be. however, i almost never used the space, the mileage averaged 4-5 less mpg than the corolla and it was much noisier on acceleration and highway cruising. so, i sold it at a good price and purchased an 06 corolla. my first tank yielded 42.5 mpg at 70% highway 30% city. my second tank was 38.1 with closer to 60% highway 40% city. from talking with other corolla owners, many of them who are committed to getting good mileage have also come very close to or exceeded the epa ratings.
We have a 2006 toyota corolla le and did that in 1.5 tanks of gas. We had the corolla corollin' (we were going) at speeds of 60 to 95mph effortlessly with the ac blowin' cold air on level 3, radio blastin on volume 40, amd outside temperatures ranging from 67º to 103º. Not to mention the car was loaded with luggage. The most we spent on gas was $28 to fill from E.
From jacksonville (we stayed the night and drove around looking for dinner) we just left with out gassing up to atlanta, ga (gwinett county). We drove 5 people (4adults and me. I'm 5'11 and sat comfortablly in the rear center seat) around sight-seeing and then gassed up for a trip back home using $28 (the 2nd refill. The first was just refilling from half a tank to full. ot took $13.28) then we went back to jacksonville and stayed for 2 days without refueling and runnung errands. We're now at half a tank and need to drive home 6rs.
Days of trip: May 27- june 1st, 2006
times refueled: 2 most costing $28
fav features: 6disk cd changers, trunk space, drl, freezing ac, the 4 cupholders, the faux wood(fun to look at when all you see are trees)
sugestd improvements: ADD LUMBAR SUPPORT!!
This car is a hit for toyota!
And hopefully they will sell a few to "autoboys" that learned math in school. MPG = Miles divided by Gallons. You seemed to have skipped that in your otherwise interesting post. Care to try that calculation and give us your actual MPG?
You are really right. While those numbers are great, they reflect what the car was really designed for, and shouldn't be too much of a surprise. I drive an Accord, and have gotten 39.9 MPGs before (70 MPH, no A/C)...couldn't crack that 40MPG mark...I average 35-36 HWY and 29 MPG in mixed...so a Corolla should definitely deliver numbers 5 MPG above that.
Corollas are great cars, it's just a shame that at 6'4", I couldn't drive one comfortably.