Honda Civic vs Volkswagen Jetta

bpeebles · November 2005

I own a TDI and am very familiar with the recommended oil.

The older TDI (up till 2004) the oil can be found at Wallmart.

Since this forum is specificcaly for the 2006... I have to assume we are also talking about 2006 TDI... you are absolutely correct that the recommended oil for the "pumpe Duse" TDI engine is very hard to locate in North America. It is defanately not available at Wallmart.

When you talk about automobile owners that choose to not use the recommended oil.... It is not the fault of the vehicle if there are problems resulting from consence choices of the vehicle owner.

Anyone that blindly buys a product without knowing how to take care of it or choses to ignore the proper maintenance procedures is likely to NOT be the same folks that are reading these forums.

I have said this previously... A VW is not a good choice for folks that want a "drive-n-forget" automobile. It is a different class of vehicle intended for a different class of people.

spinzero · November 2005

It is a different class of vehicle intended for a different class of people.

But are they really? What class of people are you talking about? We are comparing the Civic and the Jetta on this thread. That I think is assuming that we are talking about reasonably overlapping domegraphics. My wife and I are very likely to shop between a Civic Si and a GTI or a GLI, and I think a lot of other people would shop between the EX and the 2.5.

You seem to believe that VW's are designed for auto enthusiasts only, but that certainly is NOT how they are marketed with their cute ads. The reallity is that (and not to be a sexist) most of the VW owners that I see around here are college girls, and I highly doubt that majority of them are enthusiasts. Doesn't VW have a responsibilty to make cars that are suitable for the demographics that they market towards? Honda sure does, although they tend to overprice their cars.

pat · November 2005

Yes, that's exactly what we are supposed to be doing here.

The very specific VW Jetta TDI concerns and issues should be taken to that discussion at that link.

Do we have other things to say about the features and attributes of the Civic vs those of the Jetta - regardless of whether it is a TDI?? Or are we done here?

bpeebles · November 2005

You have perhaps been able to say it better than I have. This thread is instended to compare the Civic and the Jetta and anyone visiting here trying to compare these 2 vehcicels should uderstand the basic underlying differences between them.

To surmise, We have discussed;

Engineering philosophy differences which lead to very different approaches to the way the cars are designed and ultimately maintained.

The fact that these 2 automobiles are not really in the same "class". (VWs small car is not even sold in North America)

Honda tends to be more reliable with lesss owner-input (practically ignore regular maintenance)

VW tends to handle better, have higher-quality interiour materials and is significantly more rust-resistant. (12-year/ unlimited-milage warantee to back it up)

Honda can become booring. Seating less comfortable. Does not offer ESP and other traction-aiding options.

VW offers "traction control", "Electronic DIfferential lock" and "ESP"...all of which enhance safety/traction and ultimately give the driver a sense of being "in control"

VW is usually seen as "fun to drive" in most 'comparos'. VW has history of being exceptinally safe in an accident. (for a small car)

Honda service-departments tend to be very good at making customer feel good and 'make things right'.

VW service-departments tend to be very good at NOT dealing with customer-complaints very well.

I am sure I have missed some of the comparison-points... do others have intelligent words to add to this summary?

deans1 · November 2005

Other than this:

I have owned both, currently driving the Civic.

I drive a long distance daily and find the Civic, "almost" as comfortable as the Jetta.

The Jetta holds the road better, absolutely it does as I know from driving both in very windy wet conditions.

The Jetta gives you a feeling of safety where the Civic is just another normal car of high reliability. You know you will get you there every time.

Getting there in extremely rough weather conditions is where the Jetta shines, IMO by far with all the extra safety features not even offered on the Civic.

The Jetta does cost more, but you get more. The Civic is affordable, but if you're in a terrible accident, where does the cost factor come into play?

I had trouble with the Jetta I owned, and I will take some of the blame only because I refused to jump thru all the hoops required to resolve the issue. It has yet to be determined whether I will drive a Civic for the next several hundred thousand miles or whether I will again be sitting in a Jetta, that part is in VW's hands. I will let you all know what happens, for better or worse.

sapparo · November 2005

The only thing VW excels at is losing money on almost every car they sell like $1000 on every Passat sold. A company run by a bunch of german Bozo's who happen to build some of the worst quality cars around today much to the delight of myself and the better built much better run Japanese power player companies.. It's too bad that Toyota didn't take them out much sooner.

deans1 · November 2005

Guess you know things I don't. But I do know a thing about Toyotas as I have owned many. I have owned a couple new trucks and 4 different Camrys, two being the V6. Yes great cars no doubt, but I dare you to have a problem with Toyota! Toyota has the attitude that they don't have to cater to anyone because the next bozo will buy their cars regardless if youre unhappy or not. I owned 3 NEW Camrys and one used one. On the three new ones the tires wore out at between 5 and 7 thousand miles, YES you read that correct. What did Toyota do for me, absolutely nothing except point their fingers to the tire manufactures which did the same thing, nothing. I had to buy a warranty alignment at NTB to keep tires on those Camrys, fact. The other stupid thing that really annoyed me was the excessive paint chips that all the Toyotas are so prone to. I mean MANY paint chips to the point it looked awful. What did Toyota tell me about this, oh that is road hazard. Road hazard on all five NEW Toyotas? Other then those relatively minor complaints, I like Toyota. It's a good thing they are pretty reliable because Toyota sure doesn't care if you have problems. Like the close friend of mine whose A/C went out at 100 miles over warranty, they laughed at him. Like I said, they have this attitude that they are invincible. But their cars are really good, but no way perfect.

allhorizon · November 2005

Civic should be compared to the Golf.
Jetta is in a different league than the Civic.

Actually, the MkV Golf and Jetta are the same platform, same inside size, and same level of refinement (one is hatchback, the other has a huge trunk). So I can't agree with the above statement.

While the Civic is similar in size, I still would say that they are not truly in the same segment. They mostly appeal to different customers.

Sometimes, potential buyers are not aware of the differences between these two cars, or are not really sure what they want in their own car (until they have driven it for a few 1000 miles and then decide they don't like it -- or actually like it very much). Most of the discussions in this thread revolve around these two issue. Perhaps, better marketing by VW could help resolve this. They have hired a new company...

Both manufacturers have smaller, less equipped, entry level cars are currently not sold in the US.

At any rate, Golf/Jetta should be considered by buyers who prefer a solid built, refinement, great handling, and engines that have a lot of torque no matter what gear/rpm you are in. However, if you are extremely worried about one additional unscheduled visit to your dealer once a year, VWs are not for you.

Civics sometimes have better fuel economy, and are cheaper in some configurations. They don't offer the same feel of luxury or handling, and have to be revved really high to have any horsepower to speak of. Of course, if you drive them that way, you lose the mileage advantage. They are, statistically, unquestionably somewhat more reliable than VWs. Whether this difference in reliability is a deciding factor for your purchase, depends largely on your personality.

Both are relatively safe cars, although Golfs and Jettas in my opinion have an edge, there. In VWs, you have a lot more steel around you. The weight difference shows it.

Finally, most prospective Jetta shoppers I know cross-shop it with the Accord, which is perfectly understandable.

Both Honda and VW/Audi deliver a lot of innovative, well-engineered products, in my opinion. If you question VW, just look at the TFSI and the new twin-charged TSI engines; or the DSG transmission. On the flip side, Honda has advanced hybrid technology and knows how to build engines that on paper get both good mileage and decent hp (although not both at the same time, in real driving; and any hp to speak of comes right when you need to shift into next gear). That is, Honda has always been better at mass-marketing their products.

shaolingolfer · November 2005

Well said.

spinzero · November 2005

They are, statistically, unquestionably somewhat more reliable than VWs.

LOL having a hard time admitting something?

Come on, if the difference between the perennial "recommended" spot in the CR reliability survey and the perennial "worst pick" is "somewhat", then what would be "definitely"?

While I do agree that VW has a very good core technology, they fail in attention to detail. On the other hand, Honda is definitely no less in terms of technology. Your criticism towards Honda's high revving engines does not make too much sense to me. Sure you have to rev a VTEC engine to get the power, and doing so will reduce the mileage. But even so, the EPA gas mileage figure for the new civic is 30/38, as opposed to that of Jetta 2.5's 22/30. 8MPG is NOT a small difference, and I guarantee you I can rev that little 1.8 i-VTEC all day and still get much better mileage than mildly driven 2.5. And how is having redline at 5800RPM better than high-revving?

The bottom line is that the 2.5 in Jetta is just breathtakingly low-tech, enough so that when they announced the spec I couldn't believe my eyes. (and then of course the rubbish about borrowing Gallardo's engine gave me a good long laugh) It is no match for Honda's inline 4. I hate to admit it, but Honda does make the best 4-pots in the world.

On the other hand, I do agree that the Jetta is more likely to be safer than Civic. Even though the Civic gets excellent crash test rating, somehow I feel that it may not translate too well to real world safety.

http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/ictl_4dr.html

As you can see, Civic is not too bad in terms of injury/collision ratio, but not nearly as good as that of VW's. But then VW's can't match that of my WRX either. :P (yes, too many idiots driving Imprezas, believing AWD makes them invincible, but at least Subaru makes their cars idiot proof)

vitocorleone · November 2005

FYI - I like the way that Honda engines work and don't particularly want a turbo, and I know I'm not alone. Ergo, the Jetta engine is not an "advantage" of any kind, but, rather, a detriment.

I'd take a Civic every time over the Jetta, even if someone gave me a Jetta.

bpeebles · November 2005

Lets be clear about this... the Civic has EXACTLY ONE ENGINE CHOICE... while the Jetta has at least 3 engine-choices. (2.0, 1.8T, 1.9TDI) other countries get several other engine-choices that are not available in USA.

You have reminded me about somthing that made me dislike my civic. The engine was so whimpy at idle that I seemed to stall it at least once a day. I have been driving manual xmissions all my life but the Honda engine is just so highly strung (have to wind it up to get any power out of it)

On the other hand, my Jetta TDI has enough touque at idle that I NEVER have to even apply any throttle when I release the clutch...it just pulls like a tractor.

VW engines are RENOWEND to have a nice-wide powerband that is almost dreamy to drive. There is power at nearly any RPM.

Thinking about my experience with Honda - I very much disliked the fact that it was SOOO easy to stall unless the engine was reved up. Not very easy to drive smoothly.

If my Civic had not been a 4 wheel drive... I would not have kept it for 150,000 miles. (it rusted so badly that it had huge holes over the rear wheels.)

bpeebles · November 2005

I also can say that my "pretty extensive" experince with automobiles has shown that Hondas tend to need MAJOR engine repairs (head gaskets) much more frequently than VWs.

My personal Honda Civic needed head-gasket replaced TWICE in 150,000 miles.... Compared to owning at least 6 VWs over the years that have NEVER EVER needed the engine opened up for major repairs. (at least 700,000 miles across all of them)

I am aware of at least 2 other Hondas that also blew head gaskets...so my experience was not unique.

allhorizon · November 2005

while the Jetta has at least 3 engine-choices. (2.0, 1.8T, 1.9TDI)

UPDATE

The current engine choices are 2.5, 2.0TFSI, and 1.9TDI.

chidoro · November 2005

technically, the Civic has their 1.8, the 1.3 hybrid, and the 2.0 si.

I can say I've had pretty extensive experience with automobiles as well, especially Hondas. What can I say, '89 accord had zero engine troubles when I sold it w/ ~180k in '97 when I purchased my '98 civic ex. At 144.5k miles, again, zero engine problems. My parking lot is filled with hondas of all ages, I would imagine they are largely problem free as well. Sounds as if you just had really crappy luck as major engine problems and hondas are more likely to be antonyms then most any engine maker.

It's also my understanding that vtec and now i-vtec engines are also renowned for having a pretty flat torque curve. 4300 rpms for max torque isn't exactly high strung. I think one of the neat things about the engine is that it can be revved if you like to because of it's durability. So people like to wring them for the sound, but they are getting the most torque pull pretty low on the rpm range.

I won't say anything about the Jetta because I don't really know about it too much. However, I do know the civic, and I think you are painting the car incorrectly.

spinzero · November 2005

Lets be clear about this... the Civic has EXACTLY ONE ENGINE CHOICE...

Incorrect. It has three choices as already mentioned. It even offers hybrid, whether you like it or not. (I'm not a big fan of hybrid myself, but I admit it is a good showcase of technology)

On the other hand, my Jetta TDI has enough touque at idle that I NEVER have to even apply any throttle when I release the clutch...it just pulls like a tractor.

Sure it pulls like a tractor, since it has an engine like that of a tractor. You know what else is like a tractor? The torque that drops like a rock as the RPM goes up. Yes, so it's a Diesel. Your point? It seems that you are very knowledgeable and experienced in this field, and yet you are comparing a Diesel to a Gas engine. Should I then criticize the TDI for its low redline and limited torque band? What would be the point of that, when it is just the nature of the beast? Now if you want to compare the new 2.5 I5 to the Honda 1.8, you are more than welcome. While they are both gas engines, the difference is night and day.

I can see why you prefer your TDI over Honda VTEC. Certainly TDI is easier to drive, with plenty of low-end torque. But then I personally find low-revving engines to be lazy, and not rewarding when driven hard. I'm by no means a street racer, but my engine tends to see the redline at least a few times a week. I enjoy the sound it makes at 7000RPM, and the sense of exilleration.

To me, a modern gas engine with a 5800RPM redline is just unacceptable. Have you seen dyno graphs of i-VTEC engines? Completely flat torque curve all the way to the redline. Power basically becomes the function of RPM only, as its torque dependance becomes negligible. This means at any given gear, the acceleration is constant at any RPM to the factor of air resistance and drivetrain loss. While such engine may not be your cup of tea, it certainly is highly advanced engineering.

deans1 · November 2005

You need to understand the Mr. B simply loathes the Hondas, his choice, his opinion to which he is entitled. I have owned both, a new and recent TDI and a new Civic with the I.8 engine you're talking about here. The TDI did have a nice amount of low end torque, but it also had a very unpleasant vibration that was ridiculous to the point I sent it to the recycling bin. I think the Jetta handles betters at high speeds, but as far as engines, the Honda 1.8 is not as bad as Mr. B believes, having owned both recently, I know this for a "fact".

shaolingolfer · November 2005

Civic is not a bad car, I had 89 civic wagon for 6 years and it's pretty much trouble free other than 1 recall that leave me strande.
But 128lb of torque at 4300 RPM is just not for me, Jetta TDI (DSG) is a lot more suitable for me. I love it so far.

spinzero · November 2005

a VERY favourable review by Edmunds on Civic Si.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=108019#18

After much criticism on the lukewarm previous generation, it seems like Honda has hit the bulls eye with this gen. Incidentally, the same have been said by many about the upcoming GTI.
It's going to be very interesting.

thegraduate · November 2005

My personal Honda Civic needed head-gasket replaced TWICE in 150,000 miles.... Compared to owning at least 6 VWs over the years that have NEVER EVER needed the engine opened up for major repairs. (at least 700,000 miles across all of them)

Keep in mind, that everyone has differnt personal experiences...I personally dont want in the middle of this debate, but wanted to point out that my gradfather drives a 1987 Civic Wagon (1.5 liter 12 valve 4-cyl), it currently has 270,000 miles on it. You know what all has gone bad on it? The ignition, and one alternator. Not bad for that length of time and miles. I also know someone that has been dealt fits by a local dealer, Quality VW to be exact, because her air conditioner quit working. She paid to have it fixed, despite the fact that it was only 2,000 miles out of warranty, and was charged nearly 2 grand because the technicians broke something else while repairing it AND CHARGED HER FOR THEIR MISTAKE! She has finally settled with them, and is going to trade in her VW on a different make of auto very soon (not sure what kind yet).

Everyone has different experiences with cars and people. I have no doubt that VWs have been excellent cars for you, why else would you be stating how wonderful they are to us? Congrats on your cars, buddy!

Just wanted to close the same way you did...I have a new Accord, but kept my 96 Accord with 155k miles on it because it runs trouble free, so my experience isn't unique either!

Thanks for letting me input,

the grad

bpeebles · November 2005

Here is a graph which compares relative safety betewwn various vehicles. I will let the readers see for themselves the benifets of the Jetta over the Civic.

http://www.websamba.com/mcoupal/suv

chidoro · November 2005

Well, what that tells me is that the Jetta and Civic vehicle model years 1995 through 1999 are pretty much ahead of the class. I would be interested in a 2006 comparo but I'm sure both will continue to be much better than average.

deans1 · November 2005

I wrote the CEO of VW. One week later to the day I received a call from some underling women saying they couldn't do anything for me since I traded the Jetta off. I told them I traded it off only because they couldn't/wouldn't do anything back then when I owned it either, then I swore at her and hung up.

And that is exactly what I am doing with VW forever, hanging up on them never to own another product they produce.

They don't care about their customers legitimate concerns or issues. It's no wonder Honda and Toyota are blowing them out of the water.

End of my Jetta Story, forever and ever.

thegraduate · November 2005

Something on that graph bothers me a lot... Look near the top, and you will see the GMC C/K and Chevy C/K pickups. These trucks are identical in design and equipment, but the margin of error is over 50 points different in likelihood of death to the driver of one of them. This makes your statement about "how much safer the Jetta is" than the Civic obsolete, because the margin of error is so great, and the numbers presented so close (within 15 points), that this graph says nothing in favor of the Jetta or Civic, it just happens to be where the numbers from this obviously unreliable test landed.

spinzero · November 2005

This is something that I don't get. VW in America has never had a stable market position. It has always been either booming or dying. Why?

At least what happened in recent years (I think) was that VW utterly failed to catch up with the booming in the late 90's, and couldn't provide the adequate level of customer service with their limited dealer network.

But was it really unavoidable? After all, VW is one of the largest auto manufacturer in the world, and I'm sure they have plenty of resources. If they truly valued the US market, why didn't they step up and do something when they had a chance to? Why sit back and do nothing when it was going well, producing so many unhappy customers that swear they will never buy another VW, and eventually making sure that the boom was just temporary? Why be cheap on customer service when they had a chance to establish something in the US once and for all?

I can only say that VW's strategy in the US has been very short-sighted.

thegraduate · December 2005

bpeebles, I didn't intend to bring the discussion to a halt by pointing out the flaws in your logic, please continue posting!

bpeebles · December 2005

I agree with you that VW is a very large carmaker (perhaps bigger than GM?) and that they have not been focusing on the NorthAmerican market very well.

I will also add that the VW Phaeton still confuses the rest of the world. A $60,000 volkswagon?? Resale value of a Phaeton you bought yesterday is $30,000 (per edmunds)

I think that both of us are saying that VW seems to have "lost its identity" in NorthAmerica.

BTW -- The 2006 Jetta has "Electric power steering"... yet another example of bringing to the common folks a technology that no other carmaker has done.

eyc51k · December 2005

I am no neurosurgeon but I do know this: I have owned the 06 Honda Civic and 05 AND 06 TDI Jetta. Why I have owned all these cars is not relevant for this discussion. Anyway I still have the 06 Jetta TDI. After going thru this experience and from my point of view, this topic is and of itself, irrelevant. What I mean by that is the Jetta is so far advanced and ahead of the Civic on every level making this entire topic a feel good crying post for the Honda owners. These two cars don't come close in comparison, unless one wants to be honest at which point this topic should have these words bracketed and then be shelved:

The Honda is a cheap car, made cheap for the frugal minded individual that performs it tasks rather well with a minimum amount of service problems over its service life.

The Jetta is a high-end car priced at the low end with gadgets and functions only found on the leading edge or very high end of the automobile food chain. It handles like, like you can't explain until you drove one, it will take its owner a half millions miles down the highway given proper maintenance, and it does these task while making the passengers extremely comfortable with plenty of room, and as an extra bonus it will give you an easy 40 and approaching 50 MPG at every fill up.

End of topic.

shaolingolfer · December 2005

I can't say it better myself. My 2006 Jetta with DSG is awesome.

thegraduate · December 2005

BTW -- The 2006 Jetta has "Electric power steering"... yet another example of bringing to the common folks a technology that no other carmaker has done.

Like the fleet-sold $17,990 Chevrolet Mailbu did when it came out two years ago?

thegraduate · December 2005

The Jetta is a high-end car priced at the low end with gadgets and functions only found on the leading edge or very high end of the automobile food chain. It handles like, like you can't explain until you drove one, it will take its owner a half millions miles down the highway given proper maintenance, and it does these task while making the passengers extremely comfortable with plenty of room, and as an extra bonus it will give you an easy 40 and approaching 50 MPG at every fill up.

End of topic.

I'm glad you are so confident that the end of the topic is met at your last word, but I am afraid you are wrong in that respect. You mention that the jetta is a high-end car priced at the low-end. I disagree. The jetta is a low-end car priced at a mid-sized level.

I'll use facts in my presentation of the Civic's case, if you don't mind some numbers.

Jetta 2.5 MSRP is $21,980 with an Automatic
Civic EX MSRP is $19,060 with an Automatic

The Civic adds the Moonroof and 8 airbags standard (optional on Jetta for a total of $1950, bringing MSRP to $23,930...deep into Accord EX territory). The Civic also has steering wheel mounted audio controls

The Jetta achieves 22city/30hwy MPG (my Accord with 166 hp gets 26/34 and with one less tranny gear). The Civic maintains 30city/40hwy MPG while sacrificing 8 horsepower to the heavier Jetta. The Civic has a legroom advantage, so apparently the Civic has plenty of room too! It has a tighter turning radius, and manages to carry around 500 less pounds than the Jetta (notice I did not use adjectives slamming the VW here; I get slammed from people saying I was hateful when I criticize the VW, but I do nothing but give facts here.)

As far as a VW getting you a million miles down the road, my aunt would love to get 50,000 miles before she has to spend ANOTHER $2,200 on her 2000 model VW. She can't afford driving it anymore since the warranty is over.

As an extra bonus, the Civic hybrid delivers 50mpg on the highway AS WELL AS in town, while being a PZEV vehicle, not emitting noxious fumes and soot in the process, as well as not being known for inherent vibration, as the VW diesel seems to be on these boards.

The Civic is the clear leader as far as value, reliability, forward thinking engineering, and I am not the only one who thinks such. Motor Trend just named it their "Car of the Year" due to its outstanding attributes in the small car class. Your Jetta wasn't a finalist.

End of topic? Probably not.

eyc51k · December 2005

I owned the 05 TDI, 06 Civic EX 5 speed and now the 06 TDI. I am glad you love your little toy. I'll stick to my real automobile and feel very secure getting there in these bad northeastern winters like just the other night when I passed by every car and some 4 wheel drives going over the hillsides. "See my post under TDI". Yes, you can get that little car called the Civic at a cheaper price. Then that way when youre left sitting in a snow drift freezing your butt off, you will have the time to count all that money you saved shunning the Jetta and its price.....End Of Topic

PS: I have the steering wheel controls and a LOT more than the Civic does

thegraduate · December 2005

I owned the 05 TDI, 06 Civic EX 5 speed and now the 06 TDI. I am glad you love your little toy. I'll stick to my real automobile and feel very secure getting there in these bad northeastern winters like just the other night when I passed by every car and some 4 wheel drives going over the hillsides. "See my post under TDI". Yes, you can get that little car called the Civic at a cheaper price. Then that way when youre left sitting in a snow drift freezing your butt off, you will have the time to count all that money you saved shunning the Jetta and its price.....End Of Topic

PS: I have the steering wheel controls and a LOT more than the Civic does

You didn't refer to the snow-driving characteristics in your post that I replied to, nor did I. I live in the south, and snow-driving is not an issue here. I question the maturity and safety concern of someone speeding through a bad northwestern winter. With harsh, icy snowy conditions, visibility is usually lowered and traction questionable. I dont care how much your car weighs...a 1.5 ton car sliding uncontrollably across the ice is dangerous for all involved, and speeding past other cars only increases the risks for all involved.

PS: I CLEARLY referred to BASE msrp's, even listed them...the VW.com site lists the Civic EX as having them standard, and the Jetta 2.5 not. I was comparing cars that are close in price (19,600 for Civic EX vs 21,200 for Jetta). Optioning one with almost anything puts you in a different price class (comparable with an Accord, Camry, Mazda 6; all of which offer more room, speed, economy, and reliability for the dollar than the Jetta).

Actually, the Civic does all of these anyway. Legroom by an inch, 0-60 by a second, fuel economy by 10mpg, and reliability at the top of the class rather than near the bottom. Car of the Year, Consumer Reports Best Buy and Reccomended buy for the Civic. Consumer Reports couldn't reccommend VWs b/c of much lower than average reliability in the last 5 years.

P.S.S. You can keep the "holier and snootier than thou" remarks to yourself (i.e. "your little toy...that little car". That little car has more legroom than your heavy VW. Seems that someone in your position would rely more on facts than on personal opinion and personal attacks to attempt to make a point. Grow up. You are the type that make the hosts intervene; not adding useful information to the subject, just attacking someone refuting your OPINION with facts that might enhance another's opinion. Get over yourself and your VW.

ctalk · December 2005

Snow tires make a significant difference. I've been driving in snow for years (and have driven in very deep snow in Canada)and have come to the conclusion that I can not live without snow tires.

I hope you're not one of those drivers who drive on all seasons but believe their car is good enough to handle ice and snow. Those are the drivers that cause accidents. I have got rear ended before by a lady who thought her SUV could handle snow.

eyc51k · December 2005

I don't know what you're "the graduate" of but it sure doesnt seem to be manners or common sense. I have been driving in bad snow storms for 38 years and know how to drive in them. When driving 70 miles on an interstate where driving safely is possible at 50 or even 60 mph with the proper experience and the right car that will do it "safely" and only going 10 to 15 mph because some moron in front of you is scared to death, is "not" the definition of immaturity, but to pass those morons that are scared to death is simple common sense. My point is simple and whether you like it or not really doesn't matter in the least. I owned the Civic, the NEW style EX 2006 putting 4000 miles on it and then sent it to the recycling center because I missed my beloved Jetta that much! PLUS the fact I have way more options and am a lot safer and comfortable in the Jetta. Driving like I do, the Jetta blows the Civic away! I don't give a whit what some rag says, I put my money where I feel it's the best investment for me personally, and that was another Jetta. I dumped the Civic you're in love with. I am glad you like your Civic, but personally I made a mistake buying it as it was not even close to the 05 Jetta I gave up for it. We can go back and forth all day, but honestly, I had my first and last Civic, once was enough for this guy. You can have them.

Happy Motoring

allhorizon · December 2005

It always disappoints me when these discussions get so personal.

Both are great cars - except, they clearly appeal to different personalities, needs, and desires. It would serve readers better if you don't only reiterate all these well-known, great features of these cars, but also tell us why something is important to you, and how it affects you and makes a difference.

We know that the civic is cheaper (for a reason, some would say), and undoubtedly more reliable.

The Jetta (and Golf MkV) offer a different package - a more complete package in terms of driving experience and luxury to some, a more expensive one to others. Perhaps balanced by significant lower insurance rates, depending on where you live.

Their engines have very different characteristics. VW engines have a lot of torque down low, immediately available. Of the three available choices, you would have to get the 2.0TFSI to be able to rev it at all (my choice for the best compromise of power and fuel consumption). The Honda engines love to be revved, but you also need to do it to get any power to speak of. On the other hand, if you don't rev it, they are very frugal.

Then there are the looks. Some people can imagine driving the 2.0TFSI engine in the regular Jetta or even in the GLI, but would never even step into a Civic Si. And vice versa.

Glad to have such great choices.

eyc51k · December 2005

Getting personal for me is when I am called immature because I don't think like the individual throwing such insults. Your post is very accurate. I must mention though that if all we wanted to read on here were the facts then this forum would be finished a few days after the new model year cars appear and all their facts are posted, that would really be---End of Topic.

I spent serious money going thru new cars in a very short period of time and I did it with very serious consideration as I am not a rich man. To get on here and be told I am immature when I have been driving for 38 years and have actually owned and lived the buyers experience of BOTH the cars of this topic, well I feel I am a little qualified to make an accurate post.

I am sure many people making posts on here didn't own BOTH the NEW Civic and Jetta in only a few short months like I did but only base their opinions on some rag or someone elses opinion. I based mine of REAL ONWERS experience.

The Civic was a fun little car, but after owning the Jetta I felt like I went backwards, and I DID.

The Honda was no way as solid. It handled not even as close and was a lot harder to get used to when shifting when compared to the Jetta. The Jetta has a way better shifting pattern and feel. Low end torque was nonexistent in the Civic so starting out on a steep grade required some good skills where in the Jetta its almost like driving an automatic.

I sit in my car for one hour and fifteen minutes everyday twice a day and after getting out of the Civic I would actually limp for a few minutes which never happens with the Jetta. The Jetta has a 12 way power seat with memories, the Civic--Nay. The steering wheel in the Civic is so small, it felt like I was back in my Pedal Car as a child of 50 years ago. At high speeds I had more road noise in the Civic and could hear the tires singing their high pitched whining tune, like at resonant frequency. Maybe that's why the radio gets louder all by itself in the Civic.

I also liked the fact that the Jetta is safer and has options not even available on the Civic especially the ESP, and cold whether package, heated leather seats and fuel economy that is unheard of in a car with so much power, close to 50 mpg on my first fill up. I did 46.5 MPG!

Also, I like the front end of the Jetta a lot better. Driving the Civic felt like I was driving a tow boat pushing ten barges the front end seems so long when looking out. I love the satellite radio, which also is, not available on the Civic. It is nice to listen to music or other things without the constant commercials.

I could go on, but one last thing. I feel less fatigued after a days drive in the Jetta versus the Civic. Yes, the Civic is a nice car least I would have never bought one. But the Civic is no Jetta and to come on here trying to convince the masses that it is, is IMO, foolish.

pat · December 2005

The personal comments are out of line, period. Please leave them out of your future posts.

Also, there is no "end of topic" until no one has any interest in posting here. Calls for "end of topic" are also out of line. If anyone feels this is not a topic worthy of consideration, the door is to your left. :-)

Thanks.

thegraduate · December 2005

Now that that's out of the way...Is there any word on the Civic being available with leather in the future? I heard rumors before the Civic came out, so I didn't know if someone had some info about that. Thanks

thegrad

lore · December 2005

I wasn't impressed with the Civic when I took it on a test drive. My whole family owns them so of course I had to try them out. It's my personal opinion that the Civic had too much plastic, and no leather seats available. It just felt like a "vehicle" that would get you from point A to point B. Come on, I can get from point A to point B on the bus or train but is that any fun?

It's been a while since I've seen a feature on a car that had me going "wow". The Jetta was full of them, completely new and to me "unheard of". After looking at the prices, they were somewhat close together. To me it was justified to spend just a little more to get a much better car.

It's like comparing the Dodge Neon to a Civic or Toyota. The Neon will get you from point A to point B for cheaper but in no way would it be like driving a more defined car.

thegraduate · December 2005

It's been a while since I've seen a feature on a car that had me going "wow". The Jetta was full of them, completely new and to me "unheard of".

This SHOULD be the case; the car has a base price that's 20% higher than the Civic, and with some options, Motor Trend tested one that cost more than an Accord V-6 ($26k+). To get people to buy a car with 100 less horsepower and less room in it than an Accord, it better have some 'wow' features! Can you elaborate on some of these 'unheard of' features?

PS>Maybe I can get by with this posts without being insulted? (not you i'm referring to, lore)

bpeebles · December 2005

I have to chime in here to put some facts about horsepower into perspective. The first thing worth repeating is the old addage "People buy horsepower but drive torque".

Looking at just "peak horsepower" of an engine without mentioning the RPM at which is delivered makes no sense. A peak horsepower that is generated at some ungodly high RPM will NEVER be useful to anyone behind the steeringwheel. It is only relavant to someone that wishes to quote a number. Many engine-makers know that "horsepower" is what buyers look at... so they tune the engine to have a big number (but sacrifice the all-important low-end torque in the process) This sells cars to the uninformed.

On the other hand, all of us are "driving torque" every time we accellerate from a stop. Thus, torque numbers at low RPMs are much more relavant to driving a car than horsepower at high RPMs would be.

VW engines have historically been VERY torquey which means that they deliver the power at RPMs where a driver can USE it.

As an example, my VW TDI is rated at a peak of 90 horsepoower. On paper this looks pretty whimpey. HOWEVER, anyone that has driven a TDI engine can tell you that it accellerates BETTER than most cars with TWICE the horspower rating. My 90 horsepower engine REALLY shines when passing power is needed.

I do not know many people that drive at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) @ 6300 RPM (the RPM wheras peak HP is available on the Honda Civic) Since Redline is 6800 RPM.... this is pretty much unusable power.

BOTTOM LINE: Beware of peak-horsepower numbers tossed around without mention of the RPM at which it is available. These numbers have very little relavance to how much USABLE power is available while driving.

So with the technical stuff said and done... (Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm))
Honda Civic engine is rated at 128 @ 4300
VW 2.5L engine is rated at 170 @ 4300

It turnes out that the VW engine is MUCH more suited to what drivers actually need from an automobile engine. (wether they know it or not)

thegraduate · December 2005

It turnes out that the VW engine is MUCH more suited to what drivers actually need from an automobile engine. (wether they know it or not)

he Jetta pays for this at the gas pump however! 22/30? My Accord makes 160lb-ft of torque and 166hp on a smaller engine and gets 26/34 mpg vs the smaller Jetta's 22/30. The Civic gets 30/40 mpg!

eyc51k · December 2005

My 06 TDI gets an easy 46/47 mpg and even at the higher diesel fuel price it still outweighs the cost factor. Plus that all important torque is absolutely something to weight into the equation. Before owning this "whimsy" 100 HP Jetta I drove a V6 Camry which had lots of power. I owned the New 06 Civic and the new 06 TDI as well. The TDI at low rpm drives more like the V6 Camry I drove for years and simply blows away the Civic at low speeds. With the turbo kicked in at very high speeds I impress V6 drivers as they are hard pressed to blow me off the road. The other night a Grand AM V6 tried blowing me off the road and just couldnt lose me. We were hot dogging at over 100 MPH on the interstate late at night with no other traffic, afterwards he pulled over and gave me the thumbs up absolutely shocked at the fact he wasn't able to simply pull away from me and disappear. On curves I out handled and even passed him. The combination of 100 HP, very high torque and a turbo charger makes for a very impressive combination that still gives one unbelievable MPG and why the cultic followers of this little "nitch market" most people are simply ignorant of.

wai · December 2005

I am really impressed by the fact you can still get 46/47 mpg
under your spirited driving style.

eyc51k · December 2005

I never said I get that mileage at 100 plus mph, now did I?

Regardless, I am happy you are impressed.

bpeebles · December 2005

I have the NON pumpe-duse TDI engine. (pre 2004) I regulary get over 55 MPG on highway trips. (I log every drop of fuel I put in the tank to calculate MPG so I KNOW this is accurate)

But I degress...this forum is talking about the 2006 VW Jetta. The 2006 TDI engine has the pumpe-duse engine (cam-powered injection pump for each individual cylinder.)

thegraduate · December 2005

I was referring to the 2.5l I-5. If you read the post I was replying to, you can see that. Check your facts before criticizing mine.

thegraduate · December 2005

I impress V6 drivers as they are hard pressed to blow me off the road. The other night a Grand AM V6 tried blowing me off the road and just couldnt lose me. We were hot dogging at over 100 MPH

Why do people try to 'blow you off the road'? Perhaps trying to avoid being behind the diesel exhaust? JUST KIDDING...really though, why are people racing you? I drive in all sorts of traffic (about 30k miles a year combined in both cars of mine) and I can't say someone has ever 'hot dogged' with me, except someone I knew. Apparently the hot dog had a lead on you when he pulled over and gave you the thumbs up, or wouldn't you have blown past him too quickly to see his facial expression and gestures at night.

thegraduate · December 2005

followers of this little "nitch market" most people are simply ignorant of.

I believe you mean "niche market".

Honda Civic vs Volkswagen Jetta

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