BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS

mikegiller · February 2006

"Who the hell said that?? And what were they smoking, drinking or injecting beforehand?"

Nothing! Apparently though, you have hallucinated the feeling of driving the IS 350, as you claim to not have driven it.

In answer to who had said it, it was Suguya Fukusato, chief engineer for the IS 350 who was also a professional rally car driver and owns several Porsches. Bob Carter said, "Our engineer has stated that this is the fastest shifting automatic transmission on the market. Faster than a manual [not including DSG]."

Also, a review by Trevor Hoffman: "The IS paddle-shifters mirror Audi's DSG the most, my favourite design and the quickest shifting of any rival, and despite being mated to a conventional automatic rather than a state-of-the-art sequential manual, changes gears almost as quickly."

I tend to not trust people's opinions of cars' transmissions that they have never driven.

Frankly, I don't think people have never driven the IS 350 have any place in saying what you have said. I mean, the sheer ignorance.... whoops...! habitat1, drive an IS 350, stomp on the gas pedal, and listen to the shifts as it upshifts all the way past 60 mph, and then tell me that the shifts weren't the fastest you have ever seen in an automatic. Don't argue with me about it, because you have never driven the car! There is no wondering why Wards has given the official time of 5.3 seconds to the IS 350. The fast automatic transmission helps getting it there that quickly. The matter of it not downshifting in certain cases when you want it to is a different matter entirely: electronics.

The GS transmission and IS transmission have nothing in common except the fact that they have 6 gears each.

Kids these days? Who, me? Nope, don't play video games ever. I work in an office 830-500 at a publishing company in advertising sales. My peers are 30+.

PS: Lexus is using the same production automatic transmission (albeit slightly modified) in their IS 350 race car.

kdshapiro · February 2006

"In answer to who had said it, it was Suguya Fukusato, chief engineer for the IS 350 who was also a professional rally car driver and owns several Porsches. Bob Carter said, "Our engineer has stated that this is the fastest shifting automatic transmission on the market. Faster than a manual [not including DSG]."

As yes, the Lexus marketing machine, touting their own horn. Exactly like BMW saying they have the Ultimate Driving Machine.

"Also, a review by Trevor Hoffman"

Okay one review and a blurb from Lexus? Does that make it the truth? Nobody is arguing, questioning is more like it.

texasmerq · February 2006

The reason the IS350 gets to 0-60 in 5.3 seconds or whatever is the engine characteristics and the transmission gearing ratios, not the transmission shifting speed alone. A little off topic but it's one of the reasons why the Z06 has a 0-60 near cars and above some cars with a lot more power. Power to weight ratio factor in a lot too as does so many other factors.

AFAIK the transmission in the GS and IS are the same though, I will have to verify that though. Either way when I made the original statement criticizing the transmission and the shifting speed it had more to do with the way it doesn't work right all the time and sometimes shifts are ridiculously slow. Despite Lexuz' claims though I am willing to bet that the IS transmission is nowhere as fast as the MB/ AMG variants though some independant source would have to veriy. I don't take the IS lead engineer as a credible source myself. The numbers he originally quoted in the interview were that shifts take place in 1/5th of a second. That's DSG, SMG, and Ferrari F1 transmission territory and anyone who's driven or even seen any of these cars knows it doesn't shift that fast.

ivan_99 · February 2006

I think the transmission can shift quickly but still have lag

The dreaded auto-tip lag.

The internal workings of the transmission can change from one gear to another quickly, but its actual response to the driver may be delayed. So in certain circumstances when you want to shift you may get a second delay before the transmission decided if it wants to listen to you; once it does listen it, may do its work quickly.

Every auto, with fake manual mode, that Ive driven has exhibited this behavior to some extent.

brightness04 · February 2006

The IS350 tranny does actually shift faster than the one in MB/AMG. Drive both back to back and you will know immediately.

There is no law that says other trannies have to be slower than DSG, SMG and Ferrari F1. Must be one of those classic cases of "it must be good because I can't afford one" theory in practice. What's funny is that, out of the three, the Ferrari F1 implementation is the slowest of the bunch. All three operate quite abruptly by modern user-shiftable autmatic standards. I have used both SMG and Ferrari F1, and the latter is positively crummy (without even considering the $10k price for the option). . . another proof expensive does not necessarily mean superior product.

What a lot of user complain about user-shiftable automatics is actually user feedback. Much of the delay comes from the need for rev-matching, without which the trade-off is very abrupt shifting that makes for poor ride quality and ultimately breaks the drive train. The traditional manual shifting process starts with easing off or goosing the gas pedal (step 1, depending on up or down shift)then depress on the clutch (step 2), then and only then, the third step is jostling the stick. In a shiftable automatic, whether IS350 type or DSG, the trasmission has to do the rev-matching after you shift, of course the gymnastics of step 1 and 2 would take time. It may feel like the time between step 3 and shift accomplished takes longer than manual, but in reality, it probably takes half a second to a full second for a typical driver to accomplish step 1 and step 2 with a conventional manual anyway (ie. the delay between brain start planning a shift and stick gets shifted is much longer than in the case of a manumatic/DSG). It just so happens that in a conventional manual, you are kept busy for half a second to a second going through step 1 and 2, whereas in a manumatic/DSG you go directly to step 3 and have time on your hand doing nothing but complaining about how slow the whole process is ;-)

texasmerq · February 2006

I have driven both the IS350 and the MB automatics... actually extensively since both my mom and sister each own MB cars.

Your assessment of DSG is just a bit off though. There is zero jerkiness mainly because it utilizes 2 clutches so one releases when the other engages. That's why it is so much smoother than other sequential manuals. The transmission that Lexus uses though is a traditional automatic, not a sequential manual and the shifts don't happen as fast. I have driven them all as well except the Ferrari F1 including Toyota's that they put in the MR2. They all shift faster than the IS transmission and when you want them to shift. The SMG 2 that's in the M3 shifts faster as well. The complaining about the IS transmission again is when you try to engage a diferent gear that is in the powerband and it can take seconds to actually make the shift. In a true manual whether the cluth is actuated manually or by a computer that doesn't happen. When you flick the paddle, stick, or engage it manually by clutch/ stick combo it's in that gear.

I'm moving onto the next topic though because I see someone will always refute my experience even when others have had the same experiences.

ivan_99 · February 2006

I will refute itnobody shifts faster than meIm a mad man

texasmerq · February 2006

LOL

dave330i · February 2006

"Having said that, how many BMW 330i is actually sold with a manual tranny ? I would venture to guess that no more 10%."

Try 30%. That was the lastest sales figure for E46.

dave330i · February 2006

"Even the majority of M3 convertibles are automatics!"

Ummm..... only M ever sold with slushbox was E36 M3. If you're talking about SMG, then what you say could be true.

bdr127 · February 2006

But that's the point, one doesn't know if it's true or not either in a general sense or a specific sense. Just like one doesn't know if Lexus buyers just buy Lexus for the "L" on the hood.

Very true... I think you could even make the argument against Lexus more than you could BMW or MB. After all, if Lexus buyers truly didn't care so much about the "L" on the hood, then they would all just buy Camrys and Avalons.

brightness04 · February 2006

think you could even make the argument against Lexus more than you could BMW or MB. After all, if Lexus buyers truly didn't care so much about the "L" on the hood, then they would all just buy Camrys and Avalons.

Not true at all, at least for the cars that we are dicussion here. There has not been a Toyota RWD sedan since the Cressida of the 1980's. On the other hand, one can indeed get many MB parts and entire chasis in some Chrysler models.

brightness04 · February 2006

That's correct. SMG and CVT are both automatics. Torque converter (or lack of) is only an implementational detail. Witness the SMG automatic in the current generation M3 replacing the torque-converter automatic in the previous generation. For both generations, the majority of M3 convertibles are sold with automatics in the US. Goes to show that for the majority of people, automatics are simply the logical choice given's life's necessities, just like having two rear passenger doors and having a sedan.

brightness04 · February 2006

SMG and Ferrari F1 use high pressure systems that force gear out-of/into positions. Very fast forced shifts can be done, but the engagement is very abrupt (bang!) and probably harm the drive train in the long run. That's why they come with several different shifting programs, the majority of which involve rev-matching, which results in a more smooth/tolerabe engagement and do less harm to the drive train. Like I said, the need to rev-match after user selecting a gear is what really slows down the process; in a manual, the driver probably has to spend more time rev matching and disengaging clutch before even pulling on the stick anyway.

dewey · February 2006

The following engine will make the 3 series even more competitive than what it is now(assuming it will be used in a 3 series).

A new biturbo straight-six for BMW

When combined with the efficiency and flexibility of acclaimed BMW VALVETRONIC and double-VANOS technology, the new engine is able to produce an immense 225 kW of power and 400 Nm of torque. It is armed with a Table Mountain-like torque profile that defies the term curve. Peak torque of 400 Nm is delivered between 1,500 rpm and 5,800 rpm and the engine boasts a 7,000 rpm red line.

The biturbo six-cylinder has the same power and more torque than the muscular 4.0-litre V8 engine fitted to the 740i. The new engine further entrenches BMW as the manufacturer of the worlds most intelligent, advanced and dynamic engines for the enthusiast driver. However, in keeping with BMW philosophy, the substantially enhanced performance does not come at a substantial cost to the environment. Fuel consumption, previously a bug-bear of high-performance turbo-charged engines, has been radically reduced thanks to high-precision direct petrol injection, used for the first time on a BMW six-cylinder motor.

Turbo lag banished by intelligent biturbo technology

BMW biturbo

dewey · February 2006

In the past BMW used to have aluminum engines versus the current magnesium aluminum engines found in the 3 series

My question to fellow forum members is why did BMW choose an all-aluminum engine for their biturbo version instead of magnesium-aluminum?

texasmerq · February 2006

You do realize for all intents and purposes the transmission in the M3 whether it's SMG or the clutch and stick variety are the exact same with the exception of the SMG clutch is robotically actuated. SMG is a true manual transmission, not a automatic transmission. You may need to refresh your driving experience in those transmissions again and drive the IS right after it. When you flick the paddle on the SMG or DSG it's in gear, there's no gear hunting involved. Hence why the gear changes can sometimes feel abrupt if done at a high RPM. I like rough and abrupt though, so while that may not be the most favorable feeling for you, the floaty Cadillac-like Lexus steering is a turn off for me.

dewey · February 2006

favorable feeling for you, the floaty Cadillac-like Lexus steering is a turn off for me.

In fact Lexuses may not be floaty enough for all those old time former Buick/Cadillac fans. Just look at some of the comments in this forum:

link title

texasmerq · February 2006

Well that's just sad. I hope I don't get that way when I get that old...

brightness04 · February 2006

I know fully well the mechanics involved in various transmission and trasaxle systems. SMG is an automatic despite its similarity to manual in its innerworks. SMG is an automatic simply because
(1) it offers modes where user does not have to select gear at all;
(2) it does not involve manual clutch engagement
(3) (the most important of all) for drivers who are not able or not willing to drive manual, SMG allows single-handed driving while the other hand is occupied with a phone, a GPS receiver, a burger, a hair brush, a shaving blade, what-not ;-)
(4) it does have electronic nannies that lock out attempts at shifting into lower gears that would cause over-revving

In addition to SMG and fluid and impeller-based torque converters (as in most automatics since a GM patent circa WWII), there is a third implementation of automatic trasmission: CVT. All three are automatics because they allow operation modes that do not require direct user input on engine-to-wheel RPM reduction ratio.

Most people consider smooth shifting trasmission (whether automatic or manual) a pre-requsite to buying a $30k+ car, or even a $12k+ car. If you like loud banging and a kick in the pants every time you shift a gear, you only need to let your ATF or trasmission oil run low for a couple weeks; or simply remove the synchro . . . or look for a used Yugo.

brightness04 · February 2006

Pretty sad going through all that trouble for a mere 15% power increase. Looks like indeed BMW is not able to make a 3.5 inline engine developing significantly more power than the current 3.0 without serious cost and/or packaging difficulties. Making a 3.5 engine is easy, making a 3.5 inline engine without requiring engine lengthening is also trivial (increase stroke without changing bore, hence more torque but next to no increase in power, like the 2.5 to 2.8 upgrade in the mid-90's), but making a NA 3.5 inline that makes significantly more power (ie. increasing bore) is significantly more difficult for packaging into the short distance between firewall and crumple zone, as I alluded to nearly a year ago.

texasmerq · February 2006

Maybe they just don't want to step on current M3 owners toes seeing as how the 3.2 L I6 (S54) develops more power than what they are advertising...

brightness04 · February 2006

Magnesium can not handle the high temperature and high stress (torque) brought on by the turbo. In the current engines, the cam cover and crank case are made with maganesium with aluminum insert (to take the heat and stress). Apparently there is not enough engineering margin to handle the turbo. From the readings, this is a very low pressure turbo. In the realm of massive high pressure turbos, even aluminum engines were shunned in favor of all-steel engine blocks.

brightness04 · February 2006

The marketting emphasis is on quick turbo engagement without turbo delay; that necessitates a very light turbo, which usually means little power increase. It's entirely conceivable that BMW may swap the turbo for a high pressure one after the V8 M3 is here.

kdshapiro · February 2006

I dunno..using your logic then the Steptronic is actually a manual. I do agree the SMG( or whatever) has an automatic function, but with a torque converter it is not an automatic tranny, it is a manual with a servo.

kdshapiro · February 2006

"Pretty sad going through all that trouble for a mere 15% power increase."

That's because BMW tunes their engines incredibly well.. It's still a 3L engine that produces over 300 hp and doesn't have to be redlined at 9K to do it.

"Looks like indeed BMW is not able to make a 3.5 inline engine developing significantly more power than the current 3.0 without serious cost and/or packaging difficulties"

It doesn't look like anything. Your statement is mere speculation unless of course you have some authoritative information regarding this statement.

dewey · February 2006

It's still a 3L engine that produces over 300 hp and doesn't have to be redlined at 9K to do it.

HP in itself is very impressive for a 3L engine. But in this case it is more about the impressive torque than the HP figure.

Based on the specs I can say that this will be one gem of an engine.

Just one problem. I was told by a sales rep that the biturbo will sell during summer only as a 335ti coupe and convertible. Unfortunately such a car does not suit my family man lifestyle

dewey · February 2006

Makes sense. Thanks for the answer.

grylexis300 · February 2006

dewey,

most people in japan ride trains and bicycles to work. it is no secret that the rich japanese people who can afford cars (not many) like foreign cars better. that is just the japanese. i highly doubt that erases the fact that lexus dusts all the german car companies in sales in north america. geez.

with the IS, RX, and ES lineup you actually think bmw has a chance??? BMW SELLS ONE CAR THAT THE AVERAGE AMERICAN CAN AFFORD. the average american cannot afford a 5 series unless they were living with mom and dad their whole entire life. i think you are here posting trying to convince yourself that the IS is so far off from the 3 series it just can't possibly deplete bmw sales.

it is a shame with all your meandering posts one the facts are the facts. forget about racing through a slalom to work everyday. the IS is hands down the best CAR in this class. the IS has got this 3 series blown away in the interior looks and exterior. it smokes the daylights out of a manual 330i.

you guys are all a joke for trying to make the case that the bmw 3 series is so superior a driving machine to the IS. oh my goodness!!! you guys want to act like the IS drives like a camry. even a IS300 can outbrake and outhandle a 330i. it is not like the differences are that noticeable on the track. geez. i've driven a 04 325i coupe for crying out loud and there is nothing to get excited about compared to an IS300. i highly doubt the new IS line drives like a boat and the 3 series is just so superior.

i highly doubt the average american gives a rip if the 3 series can out slalom a IS350. in april 2001 a IS300 outslalomed AND outbraked the vaunted 330i. the steering on the IS300 got a superior rating as well. holy cow!!! now we have all these clowns talking about how much better a bmw must be to DRIVE than a lexus. back then the IS300 was outhandling the bmw and but IT WAS SLOWER, THE INTERIOR WAS CHEAP WITH TOO MANY PLASTICS. well now what??? we got all these clowns trying to make the case that the bmw 3 series is like a jet fighter and the IS is nothing but a learjet??

whatevers!!!

ivan_99 · February 2006

Soyour nod goes to the IS?

grylexis300 · February 2006

DEWEY AND IVAN,

i am sure you read it. accept the fact that bmw can make a so called "driving machine" but they can't make a real car to please the average driver. their vaunted idrive is just one of their many egregious shortcomings.

here is a quote for the both of you from car and driver who still crowned the vaunted 3 series number one in this entry-level class.

"Our 330i labored had to lose. The electrical ticks began shortly after it was delivered. The new 3-series has a push-button start. Ours would work only after several exasperated pushes and fiddling with the key. Why, we wondered in the free moments this created, must you even insert the "key" into the dash when many push button systems, including the IS350's allow the radio-transmitting key fob to roam free??"

hmmmmmmmm it gets even better after this

"Then the ABS lamp lit. We tried to execute one stop on our high-desert test road and nearly executed a 360 spin at 70mph instead (thus our braking number is from a previous test). Shortly thereafter several airbag-malfunction warnings lit up. Maybe it was just a coincidence."

"Even with its dash ABLAZE in emergency alerts, the 330i wormed its way into our hearts. The 3 series is the BMW franchise,accounting for 60 percent of the company's sales." (doesn't this sound like dewey wrote this article for car and driver?)

again, nobody here wants to admit that the 3 series is king of sales in this class because it is the ONLY BMW OPTION FOR THE AVERAGE BUYER WORLDWIDE.

"The new 3's interior, although beautifully tailored with wood accents and leather sport seats, didn't satisfy all. The radio display is hard to read and harder to operate, the A/C struggled in the heat, and the dash is a meniscus that curves coldly away from you."

i think i can guarantee you all that the lexus IS350's sound system and A/C can blow any bmw's off the planet. the IS300's can definitely blow any 325i's A/C and stereo system off its rocker.

nevertheless IVAN AND DEWEY!!! in CAR and DRIVER THE VAUNTED MANUAL 330i beat the IS350 213 points to 212. just in the quotes i have posted for you both the BMW DESERVES TO BE DOCKED AT LEAST 5 POINTS. geez. and that is being nice.

ivan_99 · February 2006

Yeahthat review left a lot to be desired; all those indicator lights.

Butthey still rated the BMW firstnot me; as did Edmunds. Is there a comparison where the IS won?

As Ive said before, I wouldnt purchase a vehicle based on others reviews, but winning the majority of comparison tests is at least noteworthy.

I have not driven the new IS or 3 series and have no intention to. As it is best to keep an alcoholic out of a barits best to keep me out of dealer show rooms.

Who knows, if I were looking for an automatic I may too choose the IS.

jaxrunner · February 2006

Good post man!
You are completely right especially about how the 2001 IS300 out perfomed the 330 in the slalom and every other car in its class...hands down, although it was slower and they gave it to the BMW now the roles are reversed and they still go with the 330.

I do like the BMW but come on editors you guys seem to be BMW biased. Is it really that good...Im sorry, I hear what you say about 0-60 isnt everything but it is for a car in this class, not just straight line either but 5.6 is fast, faster than the bmw performance package on the previous BMW. ...well i have more to say but I have to go will post more later....

qali · February 2006

try this...

http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_- int/861

pat · February 2006

Talk about the cars all you want. But please do not make differences of opinions into personal confrontations. If your beliefs about the vehicles have, um, legs, they will stand up by themselves without your flinging mud at folks who have other views. Trust your beliefs to do just that without getting ugly.

kdshapiro · February 2006

"with the IS, RX, and ES"

Which one of these models is actually affordable to the AVERAGE AMERICAN you mention in your post? One maybe, the IS250. The RX and ES are not afforable, loaded they are in the same range as the unafforable BMWs you mention. And I "dare" you to find a stripper model that is actually affordable.

"IS300 outslalomed AND outbraked the vaunted 330i"

Yeah and so what, do you drive around cones? Or do you step on the gas going around a curve. In real life slalom has little to do with on-road performance, I thought you would know that. BMW doesn't necessarily "win" in every category, but when it comes to piloting a car down the car road it can't be beat.

One more thing, if a BMW wins a review the editors are biased, but if a Lexus wins a review the car deserved it? :confuse

ivan_99 · February 2006

I actually found the article difficult to readmy mind started to wander while I read sentence after sentence about cup holdersthen turn signals?!?

Ok that was the Convenience section. Their biggest complaint about the 330i was iDrive. I would assume that most people would try this OPTIONAL feature before buying. They made the assumption (as accurately I suppose) to choose the automatic because most people would. Im not surewould most choose iDrive? If notwhy choose it for the comparison if they are equipping what most people would choose?

Design, ok they liked the IS, I like the 330i better (substantially)

Comfort, its hard to get in the BMW? Im still relatively young. Strangest thing was the reference to the IS rear seat. They write But sport sedans are not purchased for generous rear seat room or copious dimensions. Buy a Lexus LS 430 if thats your bagok but the IS gets the vote on convenience because of cup holders? But the rear seat room is written-off on a 4 door sedan? How about Sports sedans are not purchased for generous cup holders. Buy a mini-van if thats your bag.

Driving, they gave to the 330i

SoConvenience, Design, Comfort and Driving all seem to have equal weight.

For me,
Convenience 25%
Design  0% to 100%, too personal to be ratedunless its something a hideous as an Aztec
Comfort 25%
Driving 50%

They definitely seemed to like the IS better

brightness04 · February 2006

No. Steptronic is not a manual because it has an operating mode in which no user input is _required_ on reduction gear selection. Even the traditional PRND32L can accommodate user input if one is inclined to, but it's the mode that allows operation without _requirement_ of user input that makes it an automatic. Furthermore, the lack of manual clutch engagement is what makes SMG an automatic. Torque converter is only an implementational detail. If automatics were defined by torque converters, how would one classify CVT? Automatic has to be defined by the ease with which one can operate the car; whether the "automatic" mechanism is done by CVT, torque-converter or SMG is an implementational detail. Also, a car with only one fixed gear but requires manual clutch engagement is also a manual (like the earliest cars). Manual clutch engagement is what makes a car "three pedal" and _requires_ additional training as well as attention during operation.

brightness04 · February 2006

That's because BMW tunes their engines incredibly well.. It's still a 3L engine that produces over 300 hp and doesn't have to be redlined at 9K to do it

Let's see, Toyota accomplished that in 1993 (Supra Turbo, 320hp on 3L), Nissan in 1991 (300ZX, 300hp on 3L), and Mitsubishi in 1991 (3000GT, 300hp on 3L). If you meant the "incredibly well" tuned description for the non-turbo engine, Acura NSX as early as 1991 had close to 300hp from 3L without turbo.

It doesn't look like anything. Your statement is mere speculation unless of course you have some authoritative information regarding this statement.

It's an educated assessment much better grounded than claimng turning out a 3L turbo engine making 300hp in 2006 is a manifestation of "incredibly well" engine turning. If you paid attention to the BMW literature on the R6 engine back in 2004/5, you'd notice much emphasis was put on making the engine as short as possible (the section on using single auxilliary belt) and an explicit admission that the I-6 is one of the longest engines out there (the section on valve cover casting). What does that say about the prospect of enlarging the cynlindar bores by 15%? Not bloody likely in the forseeable future is what any thinking reader would conclude.

The article on R6 is linked below; try to skip the fluff market-speak and read the nuggets of facts between the lines:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66513

texasmerq · February 2006

To be completely honest, IMO Lexus took a step backwards with the new IS. The old IS (Altezza) was a better driving experience than the current one. The new IS does have a nicer interior, better sound system/ electronics, and the IS350 is very fast but that's where the pluses stop for me. The old IS just felt better and if they would have stayed on that track I think they would have built a better 3 series fighter. They have managed however to build a better MB C-Class/ Audi A4.

The way I see it this class is split into 2 segments really and they just happen to be in the same price range. You have the sports sedan "enthusiast" market who are more likely to go after a BMW, Acura, or Infiniti. Then you have the sport sedan "luxury tourer" crowd who more than likely will like Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi over the aforementioned. To continue to suggest that one is better than the other is pointless because they both have their markets and it's best to just pick the better tool for the job at hand. The Lexus will probably be considered the most "comfortable." The BMW will probably be considered the most fun in the the twisties and open road.

bdr127 · February 2006

Strange that you're comparing 5 year old models. Why are you comparing a 2004 325ci to an IS300?... I thought we were talking about current models. (???)

True that most people don't do a slalom course on their way to work. However, some people like to get a little spirited and take some quick curves. It has been well established by every professional driver that when it comes to staying flat in a curve and limited body roll, BMW is the clear leader. I don't know if you can find an article that refutes that, but if you do, I can guarantee you would also find hundreds to support it.

How this translates to every day driving, however, is best displayed in "active safety." Say you're driving down the highway at 60 mph and a deer jumps out right in front of you... or you're driving down Main St. and there's a bunch of debris in the road... or suddenly a car darts out from a side street... That is when that serious steering and handling is important to daily driving. For "weekend driving", that steering and handling is just pure fun.

As far as braking and handling, I'm not sure where you're getting your info and data... Road and Track, Car and Driver, Autoweek, et al, all show results with the 330i braking and handling better than the IS350. That's pretty clear cut numerical data. {shrug}

Practical? If you're looking to buy a sedan, you'll probably at least be somewhat interested in the rear seats. We all know that the IS350 is mighty cramped.

And if we want to get really practical, just look at gas mileage... 20/30 for the 330i vs 18/24 for the IS350.

Oh yeah, and BMW has free maintenance (oil changes, tune-ups, even replacing brakes/rotors) for 4yr/50k.

brightness04 · February 2006

Also, the hyperbole about redlining at 9k, probably intended as a barb at Honda/Acura, is also ill-conceived. The 1991 Acura NSX was spec'ed at 270hp (actually more power than that) at 7000rpm, whereas 2006 BMW 330i makes 255 at 6600rpm. 6600/7000 * 270 = 255! In other words, the NSX was probably making more than 255hp even at 6600rpm simply because the turque curve is sloping down rapidly approaching power peak. That's 15 years of technological catching up, and still not quite making it for BMW.

kdshapiro · February 2006

"Supra Turbo, 320hp on 3L), Nissan in 1991 (300ZX, 300hp on 3L"

Forget about the past, they couldn't build the same car today due to changed air pollution regulations. so let's compare 2003 and above. A Duesseldorf also had an incredible engine, you couldn't build the same engine today.

"If you meant the "incredibly well" tuned description for the non-turbo engine, Acura NSX as early as 1991 had close to 300hp from 3L without turbo."

Agreed, not saying BMW is the only one that does it. But the Acura redlined to 9K. Subaru also manages to get 300hp/300 torque out of there 2.5L engine.

We won't know until the do it or don't.

Wow so I guess the other hot engines BMW made in the mid-80's and above doesn't count. The Acura NSX was a $90,000 bust, and you are comparing a $90K vehicle against a $40K vehicle. Let's try this whole conversation again, on a more modern car in the same price range. I guess your point is how Acura, Honda and Lexus and finally playing catch up because other companies have been making engines with the same and better output since the 1930s.

dave330i · February 2006

Have to disagree on SMG, DSG (what ever acronymns Ferrari & Toyota uses) being automatics. I'd classify them as next step in manual trasmission evolution. When I think automatics, I think torque converters.

CVT is an interesting beast. It doesn't have a torque converter, nor does it have gears in the triditional sense. I think of them as next step in automatic transmission evolution, but I can't give you a good reason as to why I think that way.

brightness04 · February 2006

The neat bifurcation is probably what people think of the various brands (not car models), people who have no first-hand experience with any of the car models being discussed. The IS350 is a much more sporting machine than any of the rest. For open roads, only the G35 comes close in terms the visceral feel of accelearation. 330i simply does not have the torque to be even in the game.

brightness04 · February 2006

Then why is M3 offered as manual and SMG instead of the old manual and torque-converter automatic? SMG is clearly a form of automatic.

kdshapiro · February 2006

"The IS350 is a much more sporting machine than any of the rest."

Well there are a bunch of people who don't share that opinion. While the 330i doesn't have as much torque, the IS and G aremt that much faster and the 3 series handily outhandles both of them.

texasmerq · February 2006

I have driven them all so I would say I DO have first hand experience. If you would recall my write up of the IS250 and IS350 test drive that I did the day they were made availible to drive, I also drove the competing cars in the class to compare the IS to. Look it up I'm sure it's up here still somewhere in one of the IS threads. Again no one is debating that the IS has more power than anything else in the class currently, but to try to act like the BMW is a Toyota Prius compared to the IS in terms of speed is ridiculous. The IS is marginally faster in the straights and I'm sure the BMW could keep up in the curves.

thegraduate · February 2006

Speaking about practical...

You'll likely pay through the nose up front to get that superior mileage (not a BMW 330i to be found at Tom Williams BMW for under $41k). Also, you mention the cramped IS350, and yes I find it too be too small also, but no worse than the 325i I sat in at the International Auto Show.

thegraduate · February 2006

I'd buy the Lexus before the Bimmer (for pure reasons of value), but the BMW has the edge in sportiness IMO.

BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS

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