BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS

thegraduate · February 2006

Don't forget that Honda achieved 120 hp per liter in its S2000 roadster, and for less money than any of the cars you mention (in today's dollars).

Any major car company should be able to produce at least 100 hp/L engines, but it isn't always cost effective to engineer such engines.

brightness04 · February 2006

I guess your point is how Acura, Honda and Lexus and finally playing catch up because other companies have been making engines with the same and better output since the 1930s.

What 3L engine in the 1930's made close to 300hp?

Also there's nothing special about 3L making 255hp nowadays, Honda/Acura has a 3L making 240hp and 3.2L making 270hp since 2002; and those are $20-30k cars. Regarding NSX high revving, see my previous post; it made more than 255hp even at 6600rpm anyway; it just allows revving even higher for even more power wereas the BMW engine can't. If you want to talk about turbo engines, Saab makes a 260hp one from 2.3L!

Like I said, there is no manifestation of "incredible engine tuning" in making 255hp 3L NA or a 302hp 3L turbo.

Also, the 300+hp 3L turbo engines from Japan of the early 90's were phased out of the US market not because of air pollutions per se, but the cost of certification vs. produciton volume. Similar to BMW not bothering with bringing the 2.5L to the US in the R6/E90.

brightness04 · February 2006

While the 330i doesn't have as much torque, the IS and G aremt that much faster and the 3 series handily outhandles both of them.

Very questionable about "handily." The difference among the three in terms of handling are very marginal, especially considering that the IS300 outhandled the 330i "handily." It certainly takes more effort to out-handle the IS than the four-step dancing involved in disabling the VDM in IS350.

brightness04 · February 2006

No one is suggesting that 330i is a Prius compared to the IS. However, it is equally ridiculous to act like the IS is like the ES when compared to the 330i. The difference in handling is very marginal, whereas the difference in power, torque, and accelearation are all close to 20%! Which is a huge difference for vehicles in the same class (more than the difference between 325i and 330i)

brightness04 · February 2006

Yeah and so what, do you drive around cones? Or do you step on the gas going around a curve. In real life slalom has little to do with on-road performance, I thought you would know that.

Doesn't that kinda fly in the face of all that has been said about BMW 330i being superior to IS350 despite 330i being much slower?

brightness04 · February 2006

Very clever marketting indeed. I was just wondering how they are going to handle the extra weight of a retracting top with the 3L NA's torque deficit. Once again, the ultimate marketing machine . . . there's plenty other makers can learn from BMW's marketting department.

dhanley · February 2006

"In other words, the NSX was probably making more than 255hp even at 6600rpm simply because the turque curve is sloping down rapidly approaching power peak."

In other words:

"I'm imagining that it had more power than it did, and imagining it had a great torque curve, therefore, it was a superior engine"

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/measure.htm

Here's the graph for a 215 hp 325i

http://www.kwlt.net/dyno/dyno1.jpg

and the "official graphs"

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=54445&d=1122383533

brightness04 · February 2006

It's called common sense and basic automotive knowledge. Given that NSX developed 270hp at 7000rpm, if you think the NSX had a piss poor torque curve then it developed even more power than 255hp at 6600rpm. In fact, the worse the torque curve the more power it had to develop at 6600rpm because 6600rpm is long past torque peak, and we know that it developd 270hp at 7000rpm.

270hp at 7000rpm implies AT LEAST 255hp at 6600rpm, as simple as that (6600/7000 * 270 = 255). In case you did not realize, since we already know the engine peak output and it is achieved at a higher rpm, a flat-top torque curve actually makes implied output at lower rpms lower not higher because power peak is always achieved at higher rpm than torque peak.

dhanley · February 2006

You might want to check your numbers and you assumptions. You're saying quite a few false things.

An any case, i declare the NSX sucks, because a motorcycle engine blows it away in HP/L. Can we all play nice now?

dave

kdshapiro · February 2006

Yeah but it weighs 2800 lbs and is a two seater. Not really in the same class as these other vehicles.

grylexis300 · February 2006

dave330i

okay that is quite fair enough.

i guess what i was trying to say was regardless of what they said the fight is obviously not fair. the IS350 may not have a manual which some people prefer but it has the goods to flat out dominate the 330i. i mean, let's talk about reliability, luxury, interior finish, stereo, rims, price, speed, handling, exterior finish (the 330i is nice but it still looks a lot like the old car obviously and this lexus is a CUT OUT OF THE FUTURE NOT THE PAST.)

this IS even has knee airbags. it has a much more athletic posture than the 330i. and the rims folks. to each his own but the rims on the bmw 325i just say i am old and i like driving this old persons car. the IS250/350 has rims that say this car is a tailback not the offensive coordinator.

so go take a look at the IS350 dave and turn in your 225hp 330i that probably has the same sticker as this new lexus with only half the car. you might even like the A/C and stereo system better and not have to pay EXTRA FOR IT.

kdshapiro · February 2006

Yes the 3 series is slightly slower, but on road performance has little to do with HP. 5.3 vs 5.6 are the fastest times I've ever read about for both sedans. According to one of the mags the lowly 3 series beat the G35 on the race track due to it's superior handling.

kdshapiro · February 2006

" i mean, let's talk about reliability, luxury, interior finish, stereo, rims, price, speed, handling, exterior finish (the 330i is nice but it still looks a lot like the old car obviously and this lexus is a CUT OUT OF THE FUTURE NOT THE PAST.) "

Actually you make a good case for the 3 series. The upcoming new engine should put to bed any issue with the differential between HP and 0 to 60. interior finish, rims, exterior finish, handling and looks goes to the 3 series. Reliability, and hp go to the 350. Price? Rims? I dunno. You pick what you want best in the car and go for it. If ML is of interest get the "L" on the hood. If handling and road feel is important get the "propeller" on the hood.

BMW is showing us how far the bar is actually raised.

brightness04 · February 2006

You might want to check your numbers and you assumptions. You're saying quite a few false things.

Care to elaborate?

Do you dispute that 6600/7000 * 270 = 255 ?

The formula uses the torque at 7000rpm to estimate the horsepower output at 6600rpm.

Do you dispute that torque curve declines between 6600 rpm and 7000 rpm? Therefore torque value at 6600rpm must be equal or, in all probability, higher than torque value at 7000rpm, correct?

grylexis300 · February 2006

bdr127,

so you are trying to say the IS350/250 with sport suspension cannot put on the moves when needed?? i highly doubt we are talking 330i compared to a toyota camry.

rear seats?? let's not make like the 3-series is a big car. at least at lexus folks who want a big sedan can buy one for under 40K as boring as the ES is. at bmw the badge hounds have not much to choose from for under 40K. they have to buy the LITTLE car. hey a LITTLE TSX for 29K can get me to work darting in and out of traffic just as successfully as a 36K 325i. and i am sure it can't handle a turn as nicely as 3-series but let's not make like cars like the IS and TSX are gonna topple over if i whip that turn really hard.

FREE MAINTENANCE??? tune-ups. why do new bmw's need tune-ups in the first 4 yrs??? brakes/rotors?? geez if that is needed in the first four years these cars are crappier than i thought they were. at least the warranty should cover a new engine when the original catches on fire and burns up.

october 2005 CAR AND DRIVER ISSUE. THE BMW 330i's ABS failed during testing so they used the braking number from april. the IS350 still tops the bmw in braking. and by the way for all you ardent 330i lovers. the ACURA TL outperformed the 330i in lane change mph AND SKIDPAD.

in the handling dept car and driver gave the 330i a 10 and the IS350 a 9. whooooopy!!!!

brightness04 · February 2006

Yeah but it weighs 2800 lbs and is a two seater. Not really in the same class as these other vehicles.

We are talking about engines, aren't we?

thegraduate · February 2006

And the Nissan 300ZX and Acura NSX are in the same class?

Nooo...I just carried on the conversation I was reading, and added some information about a car that bested the 100 hp/L feat that y'all were talking about, and cost less than $35k.

We were obviously talking about engines until someone burst someone else's bubble with other cars that did better in the past.

brightness04 · February 2006

Try 5.1, not 5.3 for IS350. 5.1 vs. 5.6 is a huge difference. The official BMW number is 6.1

As for race track performance, it depends on which race track, doesn't it? The chances of an average owner driving on that specific race track is certainly much less than driving amidst cones, which you dismissed so nonchallently ealier.

bdr127 · February 2006

You'll likely pay through the nose up front to get that superior mileage (not a BMW 330i to be found at Tom Williams BMW for under $41k). Also, you mention the cramped IS350, and yes I find it too be too small also, but no worse than the 325i I sat in at the International Auto Show.

Paying through the nose? Hardly... The prices between the 330i and IS350 are virtually the same. Their base prices are $1k apart, and once you add typical equipment and luxury items, a price advantage between the two is basically negligable.

Yes, the 330i gets better gas mileage. Yes, the 330i has $0 in maintenance costs for the first 4 years. According to Edmunds, maintenance cost for the IS350 is $1488 for the first 3 years alone. Edmunds speculates another $1200 in the 4th year.

Whatever your option is regarding rear seat room, the dimension measurements don't lie. The IS350 is just more cramped in every dimension. And not just slightly more cramped, either. We're talking inches difference in each direction. Not only can you read any review by any car mag or online resource, but you can also just look up the dimensions here on Edmunds. (Headroom: 37.1 vs 36.7; Shoulder Room: 55.1 vs 52.7; Leg Room: 34.6 vs 30.6)

brightness04 · February 2006

There is always something upcoming, from both camps. What should worry about the BMW camp is that apparently the I6 is tapped out at 3L in Normally Aspirited form. Introducing turbo and add 15% output gain is not a good sign either. Toyota/Lexus gained 40% in output the last time they used a turbo charger. Plus, Lexus has performance hybrid up its sleeves.

habitat1 · February 2006

About 150 posts ago, I questioned who was it that claimed the IS350 has the fastest automatic transmission in the industry. I acknowledged that I haven't driven the car, but from previous experience with the redesigned 2006 GS300, that claim seemed excessively optimistic.

The response was, essentially, that I have no credibility for even asking the question, since I haven't driven the car. After all, other than 6 gears, the GS and IS transmissions have nothing in common. Oh, and by the way, that unbiased authoritative source was none other than an in-house Lexus Engineer.

Think that's bad? Now we have one self proclaimed transmission (and everything else) expert that claims that there is essentially no difference between a Sequential Manual Gearbox and the Lexus torque converter automatic.

No, wait. It's not that there is no difference, it's that the Lexus slushbox is actually better than BMW's SMG.

No, wait. It's not that the Lexus slushbox is just better than BMW's SMG. Hell no. It's better and faster than Ferrari's F1 transmission.

How does this expert know this? Why of course, he drove a Ferrari F1, himself. On that lunch break he wasn't test driving the various AMG models (which, of course are also slower than the IS's slushbox). Probably just drove his Toyota Highlander up to the local Ferrari dealership and asked the sales manager to throw him the keys for a quick test drive to the 8,500 rpm redline. :confuse:

If said expert thinks I'm the only one who finds this pitifully humorous, add "notvery" to the front and remove "ness04" from the back of your tag name.

dhanley · February 2006

"Care to elaborate? "

Check the links i posted.

As an aide, did, get it out of your system. Just get a nsx or an is350 and you won't need to post 50 times a day.

brightness04 · February 2006

None of the links you posted dyno'ed the engine using the SAE method. Wheel HP's are not the same thing as engine output.

Please keep the discussion on topic; you probably don't want me to attack you on how you jumped gun with your last post.

pocono35 · February 2006

A friend of ours just purchased an AWD250. I sat in front and back to check it out. We are looking at a similar vehicle but have children. I have to tell you that as luxurious and impeccable as the IS is, well, it isn't built for anyone of any height. At over 6ft, I was very cramped in the drivers seat and front and rear hip and shoulder room was definitely not available. This car is for my wife only and not me. What a car tho!
By the way, the dealer brought her new car, picked up her trade and signed papers at her house. Because she leased thru Lexus, she rec'd an iPod Nano. After she had the car a week, there was a recall on the seatbelt. They came to the house to pick up the car and return it after repaired. They also gave her a gift choice, high-end coffee maker or a watch, etc. for the inconvenience of the recall. You don't suppose that is why they score so high in customer satisfaction and I bet she won't report repair issue cuz if she did their initial quality would plummet.

brightness04 · February 2006

Now we have one self proclaimed transmission (and everything else) expert that claims that there is essentially no difference between a Sequential Manual Gearbox and the Lexus torque converter automatic.

Who said that? I pointed out repeatedly that the implementation details are different. However, SMG is a new form of automatic, as clearly illustrated in the BMW M3 marketting. Lexus is not even involved in this picture; it's torque converter M3's market place being taken up by SMG M3. Stop the strawman tactic.

No, wait. It's not that the Lexus slushbox is just better than BMW's SMG. Hell no. It's better and faster than Ferrari's F1 transmission.

BMW's SMG implementation is actually much better than Ferrari's F1 trasmission. Go try both and you will find that out first hand. I don't think I ever made the claim that IS350 automatic is faster than SMG or Ferrari F1; is it actually faster? perhaps, depends on which generation of SMG.

As for the rest of your post, if you are looking for a habitat for unlimited personal attacks, you are clearly searching in a wrong place. BTW, I may not be an expert, but I certainly have posted more facts and technical details than you have so far, and frankly, you don't want to engage me in [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat personal attacks either.

BTW, I did not even have to go to the dealership to test-drive a Ferrari with F1 tranny; one of my collegues had a 360 Mondena with it.

Comes to think of it, I was not even the one who questioned your credibility 150 posts ago . . . what's this load of personal attacks coming from?

dhanley · February 2006

"Please keep the discussion on topic; you probably don't want me to attack you on how you jumped gun with your last post."

Heavens, no, i wouldn't want you to attack me!

I'll try to not go off-topic by introducing cars like the NSX to the topic.

brightness04 · February 2006

When someone claims achieving 255hp in a 3L and 302hp in a 3L turbo is manifestation of incredible engine tuning . . . it is only faire to point out what's been achieved 15 years ago, don't you think? That's why I did not bring up cars like NSX per se, but merely the 3L engines in them.

BTW, I'm no great fan of HP/L . . . as you said, Yamaha and Honda motorcycles beat them all. I was not the one who held up HP/L in the BMW engines as some kind of achievement.

pat · February 2006

for personal confrontations, folks.

Let's talk about how these two specific cars compare with each other ... we haven't really been there much lately.

brightness04 · February 2006

I think recalls are factored into the reliability data. How a company treats its customers on recalls factors into custom satisfaction data.

Frankly, it is entirely conceivable that Lexus get more complaints in the next few years as it pursues performance. We shall all wait and see.

kdshapiro · February 2006

" why do new bmw's need tune-ups in the first 4 yrs??? brakes/rotors??"

If you need them they are free.

"october 2005 CAR AND DRIVER ISSUE"

Apparently you are one of the few that are bothered by the issues with the test vehicle.

"the ACURA TL outperformed the 330i in lane change mph AND SKIDPAD. "

But try hitting a curve at 90 in an Acura and mashing the gas. It's the real world driving experience where BMW leaves the competitors in the dust, including the IS350.

kdshapiro · February 2006

Why don't we talk about what's been achieved a 100 years ago then? It's only fair if you talk about 30 years ago then lets compare anything to anything. And where did motorcycles come into the conversation and what do they have to do with the current conversation.

brightness04 · February 2006

But try hitting a curve at 90 in an Acura and mashing the gas. It's the real world driving experience where BMW leaves the competitors in the dust, including the IS350.

IMHO, all three can do that quite well, nobody is being left in the dust. Much is dependent on tire grip and road surface condition. I hit curve at 90 and smash gas quite often in my Highlander ;-) Scare the heck out of my wife, but the AWD and VSC combined can handle the situation quite well.

kdshapiro · February 2006

"Who said that? I pointed out repeatedly that the implementation details are different. However, SMG is a new form of automatic,"

You're playing with semantics. For most of us a torque converter differentiates an automatic transmission from a manual. A CVT still has a mechanism for loosing the belt(similiar to a torque converter). A clutch in any way, shape or form can't be confused with a torque converter.

An SMG with a clutch and servo is still a manual because it has a clutch and not a torque converter.

kdshapiro · February 2006

Scare the heck out of my wife, but the AWD and VSC combined can handle the situation quite well.

The difference is a BMW will not engage the VSC and will accelerate smoothly to 130 with the pedal nailed to the floor.

I know you won't admit it, and you will discount the experience but i would like to try that very thing out between you and me side by side. You in your highlander, me in my e90 3L and let's see exactly how these two cars compare at full throttle out of a curve.

It does not sound like you have much experience with RWD entry level sports sedans.

thegraduate · February 2006

But try hitting a curve at 90 in an Acura and mashing the gas. It's the real world driving experience where BMW leaves the competitors in the dust, including the IS350.

Since when is hitting a curve at 90 "real-world", as you say? It's this kind of "real-world" driver that ran me into a guardrail because they were going to fast.

habitat1 · February 2006

"It does not sound like you have much experience with RWD entry level sports sedans."

Or manual or SMG transmissions. Except of course, for that "friend's" Ferrari 360 F1. Apparently, the only one that didn't come out of the factory with a 13 millisecond shift time. Right. :confuse:

Verifiable facts, personal opinions, unsubstantiated claims. There is a difference.

mikegiller · February 2006

"But try hitting a curve at 90 in an Acura and mashing the gas. It's the real world driving experience where BMW leaves the competitors in the dust, including the IS350."

Yes, I too, almost cr**ped myself laughing when I heard that.

When a e90 wins slalom it goes like this: See, in real world driving it is faster than anything else. When the IS 300 won the slalom it sound like this: Noooo, slalom driving isn't real world. Real world is taking 90 degree turns at full speed and flooring it. Tiring to say the least.

brightness04 · February 2006

You are confusing "hydraulic automatic trasmission" with "automatic trasmission." Most automatic trasmissions made in the last 50 years have been hydraulic automatic trasmissions, but do not have to be.

Automatic trasmission is defined by its "automatcity" (the ability to engage clutch and switch gear without direct user imput), not by "slack." Even SMG has degrees of "slackness," which is pretty much what the different programs are picking.

ivan_99 · February 2006

Engines

As I recall the NSX engine itself did not make the car competitive. It was the complete package and particularly the handling that caused the car to be rated high in comparison tests.

If I remember correctlyit was usually slower on timed specs than the competition.

I know you meant JUST the enginethe 1993, 270hp and 210 lb-ft (at high rpm) of torque does not compare very well to todays modern engine. The turbo BMW 3 series of 300hp and 295 lb-ft at 1500rpm definitely has a more flexible engine...if specs are your thing that is.

Now the IS does have good engine specs, impressive hp and torque, it is virtually on par with the regular 3 series as far as hp per liter. They do have the larger engine, if you can do the larger engine for the same price, and keep fuel consumption down, it is definitely an advantage.

As far as being technically superior, I wouldnt rate either the IS or 330i over the other.

What really needs to be compared is what type of engine you can get for what amount of dollars. The M3 (I6) is an example of a normally aspirated engine that produced excellent power but is a little pricey. I would rate the 2.0 S2000 engine above the NSX only because it could be produced for much fewer dollars.

I recently clicked on the Edmunds Head2Head comparison. For 26K MSRP you can get a 300+hp engine in a chevy, sure its a V8 with a 4speed tranny but still gets 28 mpg on the highway.

Ok nobody wants an Impala here, especially me, but my point iswassomething or otherturned into rambling

mikegiller · February 2006

Comming from the same person that finds it so hard to believe that the 6speed AT in the 306 hp IS 350 is in no way different than the 245 hp GS 300 without driving.

I think I was the one who questioned your credibility, and I see another hole in it right now:

"Verifiable facts, personal opinions, unsubstantiated claims. There is a difference."

You were saying, my good sir...

If anybody's credibility should not be challenged, or even insulted in this forum it should be brightness04. He has never verbally abused a single poster on these boards even when people with little knowledge or experience have questioned his. Their reasoning behind their arguments/attacks are that (like yourself) they have never done the same, so therefore, somebody else would not have the opportunity to have done what they said they have done. Very little behind their words.

Now, I don't know about you, but I would wager that even if the GS 300's tranny is the same as the IS 350's, the fact that they are different enigine's although from the same GR series family of engines, the gearing is different. Heh, then again, you haven't driven the IS 350. Nevermind.

I'd also wager that brightness04 is the most knowledgeable person when it comes to phyisics on these boards, period.

More to it than saying it isn't an auto just cus it sounds weird to you.

:confuse:

brightness04 · February 2006

I was merely pointing out that 90 in a curve like you suggested is no sweat for any of the three cars, or even for much less sporty vehicles, provided that road surface has good grip. If the road is slippery with snow, your E90 3L will slide off the road at 90 long before even the lowly AWD highlander does.

I owned two 5 series for over a decade, one of which was actually lighter than today's e90, and it did not even have VSC. So I know RWD sports sedans quite well.

thegraduate · February 2006

Ok nobody wants an Impala here, especially me, but my point iswassomething or otherturned into rambling

it's ok...we're all guilty of that at some point or another. :-)

brightness04 · February 2006

The main problem with the Ferrari F1 was not engagement speed but the abruptness. Try reading comprehension for a change.

brightness04 · February 2006

As I recall the NSX engine itself did not make the car competitive. It was the complete package and particularly the handling that caused the car to be rated high in comparison tests.

Only the engine was brought up in this discussion because I was replying to a post about engine. The rest of the car is quite out of the scope of this forum.

I know you meant JUST the enginethe 1993, 270hp and 210 lb-ft (at high rpm) of torque does not compare very well to todays modern engine. The turbo BMW 3 series of 300hp and 295 lb-ft at 1500rpm definitely has a more flexible engine...if specs are your thing that is.

In case you missed it, the 320hp 325ft-lb Supra turbo engine of 1993 was comparing to the 2006 BMW turbo engine. The NSX' engine was being compared to the 255hp and 215lb-ft normally aspirated 3L. For 15 year's difference, you are welcome to draw your own conclusions on both the turbo pair and non-turbo pair.

BTW, I agree with you that HP/L is a fool's game. What really matters is power, torque and fuel consumption, plus some other detail such as packageability . . . after all we do want some crumple zone ;-)

dewey · February 2006

If the road is slippery with snow, your E90 3L will slide off the road at 90 long before even the lowly AWD highlander does.

And you higlander will slide off the road before a Zamboni!

Your example is highly irrelevant.

I never bought my BMW because of the way it drives on snow. And I have never slid off any road so far these past eight years in snow-blown Toronto.

brightness04 · February 2006

I'd like to see a Zamboni that does 90 on either straights or curves ;-)

BTW, the irrelevance was exactly what I was trying to point out with KD's 90 in a curve scenerio . . . none of the three cars would be left in a dust at those speeds. It all boils down to tire and road condition if any of them starts sliding.

pat · February 2006

I say let's get back to comparing the subject vehicles and we get farther from that than we've ever been.

If anyone wants this comparo to continue, they need to step up and post something appropriate to the topic.

pat · February 2006

still waiting for someone interested in the subject of this discussion to join us ...

ivan_99 · February 2006

I got one

Does anyone have any specs on the automatics such as 5-60, 30-50 etc?

Since we compare auto to auto here, because most people choose automatics, then the 0-60s quoted from magazines would be irrelevant because most people wont hold down the brake with their left foot and apply the gas with their rightreleasing at the optimal rpm.

Then again, most people 0-60 is probably 30 seconds60 seconds for my wife

rats13 · February 2006

Wow spirited discussion on this board. My 2 cents: I just ordered a 330i the main reason over the IS350. SIZE. Not just rear size. I'm 6'1" and the IS350 is too cramped inside. Trust me after owning a Honda, Acura and 2 Lexus, I waited for and wanted the IS 350 in the worst way but it is just too small.

Granted I'm not an autofile spliting hairs on 0 to 60 times I just want car that is fun to drive. Honestly I drove the IS350 and the 330i back to back at a Lexus event and I felt like the IS350 was a bit noisier and had more body sway on the course.

As far as looks I started out dreaming of the IS350 but now I find myself liking the E90 more (maybe a self-preserving thing).

My 2cents your mileage may vary

BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS

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