Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Theres no doubt that BMW is #1 for performance and if one had to rent a BMW or Lexus, the BMW would win >90%. However, long term reliability cost goes to Toyota/Lexus hands down. I work at a huge firm, over 3000 people (engineers, techs), with plenty of BMWs, Lexus, etc. Those who own Germans cars for more than 5 years mention the cost of repair. Their car may not break down on the freeway, but with 1000 motors, one is bound to fail every other day! (JOKE from 7 series owner)
I had a 92 Toyota MR2 turbo that was actually pretty reliable, but I was scared of any problems because parts/labor very expensive on that car. Oil pressure light came on, $15 sensor fixed it, but could have been oil pump which would be >$1000 for labor to get to it. BMW likely similar experience.
BTW, CR loves BMW cars, they just dont recommend them strongly because their readers complain of electrical problems, etc. As far as bias, CR and JDP have low systemic bias. Even if they did have BIAS, why would it favor one car over another? So Toyota bribes CR readers and JDP staff, but the German companies dont?
I was shocked to see this at Forbes, where BMW and Mercedes MUST advertise: http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2005/07/05/luxury-cars-vehicles-lifestyle-cx_dl_0705feat.ht- ml
Sounds like a Honda tranny...
Here is the performance aspect:
Powertrain: (330i/IS 350)
performance (20) - 17/20
engine flexibility (5) - 5/5
fuel economy (5) - 5/5
engine NVH (10) - 9/9
transmission (10) - 9/8
total (50) - 45/47
Chassis: (330i/IS 350)
performance (20) - 19/17
steering feel (5) - 4/4
brake feel (5) - 5/5
handling (10) - 10/9
ride (10) - 9/7
total (50) - 47/42
gotta-have-ite factor (25) - 23/23
fun to drive (25) - 23/22
The end result of the whole test: 213/212
Note: fit and finish (10) - 9/9 "The electrical ticks began shortly after it was delivered. Ours [push-button start] would work only after several exasperated pushes and fiddling... Then the ABS lamp lit. We tried to execute one stop on our high-desert test road and nearly executed a 360 spin at 70 mph... Shortly thereafter several airbag-malfunction warnings lit up... Even with its dash ablaze in emergency alerts, the 330i wormed its way into our hearts." - C&D
I would consider the BMW if the interior didn't make me want to puke and the reliability was not an issue. But, that's a big IF.
What Lexus did right was handle the problem without hassle for her. She wasn't out of pocket for any costs and the repairs were performed properly. I'm assuming the "$9K" in repairs for your 2003 were under warranty?
I was explained that the car had the Electronic steering and did not have any steering fluid. It felt light compaired to my vehicle, thats the best I can describe it. I entered the twisties that require about a 1/2 shuffle steer to maintain your lane. Interestingly enough even with a tire size advantage 17 vs18, and non run flats it began to break away sooner than my 325i would. With the 255/40/18 in rear it was a little unexpected. We cross some railroad tracks and its solid and quiet. Now to the service road for a little excelleration test, smooth and fluid but the almost second 0-60 times dist vantage is felt. A few more turns and we are back.
I check out the trunk which has a smaller opening and no fold down seat option. But the cubic feet is quoted the same. Now to the back seat which gives up a whopping 4 inches to the 3er.
I glance over the brochure at home and notice its all about Germany and Nurburgring every page. hmmm
Id break it down by saying the content per dollar goes to the L, with leather, power seats, homelink,Smart acess, metallic paint, knee airbags and auto dimming mirrors standard.
But, it gives up excellent steering feel, suspension and a Power disatvantage. And the lack of a usable back seat, storage .
If tomorrow BMW stopped importing cars to the US , because of RWD and Manual option it would probally get my vote. Both are Very fine automobiles. But in my mind there is still a bit of pursuit going on here
DL
Performance generally means things like accelerations and how fast the car goes. The more objective or "measurable" things that have more to do with a car's engine and transmission.
Handling has more to do with how well (and fast) a car takes a turn. And I would also add that it takes more into account with the subjective "feel" of a car. The handling of a car really has more to do with steering, suspension and (to a degree) the ergonomics.
Having said the above, in comparing the Lexus IS350 and the BMW 330i, I would say that the Lexus wins the former (performance) while the BMW wins the latter (handling). We each may differ on how and how much we value the differences, strengths and weaknesses of the respective cars, but I think most of us (although definitely not all) would characterize the two cars as such.
And when you think about it, that probably isn't too surprising. Lexus was definitely "aiming" for the BMW 3-series with its IS automobile and it would make perfect sense that they would come closer if not exceed in the more "objective and measurable" areas of performance yet fall short in the more "subjective" areas of handling.
I personally prefer the Lexus IS350 over the BMW 330i but BMW's do have a certain "magic" with their handling that others (not just Lexus but everyone) have been unsuccessfully trying to duplicate for years.
And on another note, European Delivery is a great option with BMW that I really am surprised more people don't take advantage of. The cost savings of even a 3-series will more than pay for the cost of the trip. Go to the section on European Delivery on the BMW website (don't know if I'm permitted to link it here) and look it up. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Sunroof – just gets sun in my eyes
SMG – no need in getting a performance sedan if you go this route
Power Mirrors, Seats – how many times do I need to adjust these
Heated seats/power rear shade/parking distance sonar – fluff
Stereo – Either I have the AC blowing loud, or if it’s not hot I have the windows open, so who can tell the difference.
Xenons maybe
To tell the truth if all I wanted was “content” the just reviewed Hyundai Azera seems to offer the most for the least (plus 265hp...0-60 6.5 with an auto) for under 30K.
How about another example of similar cars, a 330i Sport versus a G35x. I would argue that for many people in the US, the G35X is the all around better performer. True, the 330 should edge the G35x in the dry, but throw a bit of rain, ice, or snow into the mix and the G35x should leave the 330i "all wet". So, the better performer would be different for someone who lives in SoCal then from someone who lives in upstate NY.
So, IMO, even finishing second in a camparo doesn't exactly make either car a "loser". The world just isn't quite that absolute.
But, that's why there are so many choices available, so there should be something for everyone (kinda like spouses...)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
You know what, sdiver68, I don't totally disagree with you. However, I think your race course example also brings into question the idea of "handling". I would say that "performance" has to do with how fast you get from point A to point B while "handling" is more about how well you take the twists and turns. Thus, the road race brings in aspects of both.
This is precisely the "performance/handling" balance that BMW builds cars to achieve. Even such things as loads on the transmission over a lengthy road race will come into the picture as a "performance" attribute. For example, Porsche builds cars that can be purchased and raced the same day right off the lot. Various BMW's can also achieve this better than the majority of their competitors.
Since we don't live on the race track, we often overlook "unseen" attributes of one car or the other... I just happen to believe BMW excels in the achievement of the overall performance balance issue.
This comparison was designed to show the difference in performance they would exhibit in different circumstances, ie. wet weather, snow. Making a night and day comparison was the point to show how one would fair in snow vs. dry pavement. He might have been better off saying G35x to G35 RWD to avoid this whole situation in the first place, I guess...
"So, the better performer would be different for someone who lives in SoCal then from someone who lives in upstate NY."
Exactly. It depends on what your performance criteria is. An F1 car is a high-performance car, but stick it on a rally course and its performance sucks!
Depends what your needs are.
Some cars also get pretty hairy at their limits, although those limits might be high.
IMO, one thing that BMW has usually done well is produce cars thats "feel" good in normal use, and that you could drive at or near the limit with confidence.
So, in many cases, you might enjoy a car with lower limits (on paper), if you could actually come close to hitting them without giving yourself skidmarks.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Is reliability an issue for the 3 series? That is news to me? I have been researching the stats and I see no reliability issues! Your claim sounds bogus to me! I would really appreciate it if you can back up your claim about BMW3 reliability issues with facts!
The e90 interior makes you puke? Aren't you that same fellow who was dazzled by the interior of a Toyota Avalon?
I guess to each his own(some people do love geriatric-type designs)!
Welll in this case Reality Bites:
Refer to the R & T comparisons(Nov/Dec) between the 330, is350 and g35!
I am using the R&T stats provided by jrock65's post 4741 in the following forum:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef0a892
SPEED (R&T) Comparo
1) 330i
2) G35
3) IS350
The 330i and G35 were both 6MT.
0-60, 1/4 mile:
G35: 5.8s, 14.4s
IS350: 6.0s, 14.5s
330i: 6.2s, 14.9s
60-0:
G35: 116 ft
330i: 124 ft
IS350: 128 ft
Yea, I read the same SPEED article and it seems to hit the nail on the head. I went to the local WInnipeg Lexus dealer this week, when I was taking in my G35 for service. The 2 dealerships are right next door to each other and owned by the same Auto Group. I sat in an I250 and it was small. The sales person kept telling me how fast the Is350 was and he said that G wasn't even close to it!
The first numbers out from Lexus(C&D,etc) were probably with an early testor that was running a little "richer" than what would be sold. People have to realize that the IS350 has 12;1 compression in the pistons which means 100 Octane fuel to make use of the added compression.
The Canadian prices are jacked up as well which leaves the G35 a steal here in Canada. The same old pricing that killed the new Acura RL here in Canada.
Have a great day.
it's nice to finally meet someone who cares about Canadian pricing!
The worst culprit is Porsche! The Porsche Cayman reflects a US/Cdn $ exchange rate that is around to 45 to 50 percent!
The Acura RL reflects 40%.
And most Lexus models are absurdly priced also!
Among the best companies for Canadian pricing is Honda(including the Acura TL but certainly not the RL)!
BMW pricing lies somewhere between the extremes of Lexus/Porsche and the more moderate Honda prices(except the RL)!
Right on about the Acura TL! I don't know what happned to Acura on the RL. I expected about $60KCDN pricing for the RL and it came in at about $70K!
One of my buddies has a Porsche 911 and another has a BMW z3 and I didn't even ask about he price.
Anyway, I wanted to consider the IS350 but I'll just keep looking and driving my just as fast and better handling G35!
Have a great day!
I find it hard to believe that you don't recognize a bmw against the backdrop of japanese designs out there... there is a stark contrast imo. Maybe it's the morphene JK you're on.
Apparently you're part of the shiny shirt club since you like things that are flashy; heck you might even be blond (JK) - a car might look fun inside, and that's what you're looking for, but I'm looking for a car that performs better than it LOOKS. ; )
There is Luxury Performance, the measure of how nice a ride is. There is cornering performance, the mesure of how many g's you can pull in the skid pad. Then there is straight line performance. "Performance" is very objective and needs to be "handled" with specific measurements. BMW clearly does the best job of satisfying the visceral aspect of driving and very high marks for luxury at the same time. Lexus does a superb job with pampering you and solid feel, while their performance execution is only good on paper. It's really that simple. At Laguna Seca, the 330i will kick the snot out of a IS350... A trip to Vegas? I would take the Lexus. :shades:
Most manufactures want a loss leader that is the flop like the 325?
***When did the 325 become a flop?***
Do I think some of the comments about the acceleration of the 350 is any more mature than what I'm alluding to? I don't know what the heck you're talking about? I was talking about the 325, not the IS 350... you're assume too much. :confuse: :sick:
The difference between hitting a pedestrian and missing one in an emergency stop is a few inches. :shades:
I read this somewhere; give a couch to a frat house and a couch to your grandmother, check on the status of both couches in a year...
As kdshapiro said, demographics for the 325 is irrelevant!
But if you insist it is relevant, I am willing to wager that you are incorrect unless you have stats to prove it!
Have you talked to any new 325 owners? They're freakingly childish
According to you I have not yet reached my adolescence since I drive a a infantile and dated 99 323i!
So was buying my 323i an act of childishness?
Seven years ago I was going to buy a Honda Accord V6 until I test drove a BMW323i and found out it would cost me only a few thousands dollars more than a Accord! So I bought the BMW instead! Does that sound childish to you?
Also I was in my early 30s when I bought my BMW323. According to your demographic view I was sort of like being the 12 year old student in a grade one class, dont you think?
One thing I can tell you for certain and that is when I buy a future BMW330 or a BMW5 series my own demographic views on BMW325 drivers will not turn negative!
In the world of performance motorcycles, rarely is 1 magazine test done, comparo or otherwise, where they don't strap the bikes onto a dynojet and print the resulting graph in the article. They also often shod them with the same rubber, adjust the suspension for best results, and post lap times.
I would like to see Road and Track or Car and Driver do the same.
I agree, it was not my intent to start a BMW v Infiniti war with that post, rather I picked the 2 cars I personally feel are performance leaders in this class...the 330i Sport for the dry and the G35x for adverse conditions. Oh no, I just did it again.... :surprise:
I did my research. Shipping cost is aka Destination charge. It's US$695.00. And yes, it's included in the price -- it always is.
By the way, perhaps the folks over at e90post.com know when someone is trolling?
I personally like the G35, but the interior is no where near as nice as the IS in my opinion; the interior smells like plastic and the use of plastic is quite extensive and seems quite flimsy (cabinets for instance); looks like a Nissan IMO, not a luxury car.
And speaking of reality which dewey seems to have no grip on: The number of 5.3 is not what Lexus claims as an in-house number, but "AMCI-Certified acceleration testing, six-cylinder automatic sedans, Ward's Segmentation". Research the facts, dewey, before you make bold statements of misinformation.
Dewey, quit twisting the facts; your rhetoric is really, really tiring.
And btw, the G isn't even close to it.
Older design BMWs look better than today's. Literally, the car's interior does not make me want to vomit but I find it somewhat tasteless in comparison to the Lexus IS which I find has a very elegant, modern look to it. I will be spending most of the time in the cabin of my car so that is where I want the comfort and style.
I have heard of way too many people I know that have had problems on their BMWs and even 3 series. In general, I have heard too many problems ocurring on German cars. All Toyota owners I know are happy with their cars, myself included.
The speed, luxury, technology, and also style suit my needs just fine in the order (most important to least) I like just perfectly in the IS.
I would never knock anybody for owning a 3-series and if somebody gave one to me I would be one happy camper, but dollar-for-dollar, the IS wins me over simply because it has all the things I want in a car and its reliability is without question in my mind.
That's life... I like Lexis, some like BMWs (I do too, but not as much). The IS is officially faster than anything else in the class too.
Edit:
As a matter of fact, I think I will go maybe today or Monday to Point West to test drive a 330i and G35.
Haven't gotten an IS 350 to test-drive yet (none in yet). That will be fun (and will seal the deal)!
:shades:
- It seems like you are questioning your own logic there! -
"I have been researching the stats and I see no reliability issues! Your claim sounds bogus to me! I would really appreciate it if you can back up your claim about BMW3 reliability issues with facts!"
Are you kidding?
I posted this earlier and is what you initially responded to: Note: fit and finish (10) - 9/9 "The electrical ticks began shortly after it was delivered. Ours [push-button start] would work only after several exasperated pushes and fiddling... Then the ABS lamp lit. We tried to execute one stop on our high-desert test road and nearly executed a 360 spin at 70 mph... Shortly thereafter several airbag-malfunction warnings lit up... Even with its dash ablaze in emergency alerts, the 330i wormed its way into our hearts." - C&D
Sounds like something I would not like to gamble on...
I would have the same reservations if this happened to the Lexus.
Mike this explains everything! No wonder you are mistaken in believing BMW 3 series are unreliable cars!
The C & D stats are great in explaining just one single BMW330i! When I referred to reliability I was talking about the BMW 3 series as a group not one particlar 330i that was tested by C&D!
You do know the difference between anecdotal evidence and statistical evidence, right? The C&D evidence is anecdotal therefore useless! Statistical evidence involves thousands of cars and therefore are useful!
So I repeat my question : Please show me some real evidence that the BMW 3 series is unrelaible! Hint: the stats are provided by JD Power and Consumers Report and based on those stats the BMW 3 series are not unreliable!
... I was referring to the facts of the R&T Speed Comparison dated Nov/Dec! And I repeat those are facts and not twisted facts!"
Fact is, is that you mention an unofficial time done by a magazine with ad revenue.
The difference is that you are referring to the R&T acceleration numbers as an official number since the number is a fact. The reason why the magazines post the variables such as atmospheric conditions, road temp, ambient temp, etc. is because those values play an influence in the testing of the cars, as well as how much the cars have been broken in, the driver, etc. In an official test done by a 3rd party candidate, like I stated, the IS 350 got a 0-60 mph time of 5.3 seconds. This is official. Not some magazine, but an official 3rd party that rates all makes of vehicles.
It is fact that the G35 received a better time, but things would be a little bit different if they were raced side by side, not individually.
I wonder if you have ever done a scientific experiment in your life!
Somebody is in denial. The facts are that the IS 350 is simply faster. It has been confirmed...ugh... 5.3 seconds. I am sure you can find a wide variety of times for various cars, but the reality is that once you achieve an official number which is not in question due to the nature of the controlled testing, you let go of the past (some of us) and accept reality!
Where the twisting comes into play is that you pretend like R&T did this one comparo where it unofficially received a worse time than the G35 and all-of-a-sudden the G35 is faster than the IS 350 all the time?
If not, then why the hell mention it in the first place!?
Huh?????