Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
The Big 3 and the domestic issues that will affect them
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Now back to the fight:
UPDATE: Consolidated Summary Of April US Auto Sales Data
Tue, May 1 2007, 18:21 GMT
http://www.djnewswires.com/eu
UPDATE: Consolidated Summary Of April US Auto Sales Data
The following summarizes the U.S. light vehicle sales numbers for April for the major auto makers that have reported data Tuesday. The figures are not adjusted for the number of selling days, which totaled 24 last month and 26 in April 2006. Figures in parentheses indicate a decrease in sales from the year-earlier period.
YR-ON-YR YR-ON-YR
COMPANY SALES CHANGE YTD CHANGE
General Motors (GM) 307,554 (9.5%) 1,205,997 (6.5%)
Ford (F) 228,623 (13%) 871,583 (13%)
Toyota (TM) 210,457 (4.3%) 816,312 6.7%
Chrysler * 193,104 1.6% 730,353 (2.9%)
Nissan (NSANY) 71,124 (18%) 350,105 0%
The following is a breakdown of the April sales numbers for the auto makers by type of vehicle.
TRUCK/SUV CHANGE CARS CHANGE
GM 186,545 (9.1%) 121,009 (10%)
Ford 147,891 (5.8%) 80,732 (24%)
Toyota 89,901 (2.3%) 120,556 (5.8%)
Chrysler 146,439 11% 46,665 (20%)
Nissan 30,410 (22%) 40,714 (14%)
Toyo is breathing down GM's neck with car sales and they blew away F and DCX by 50% and 160% respectively.
That is a direct result of bad management magnified by time!
"Good Grief, Batman!"
"To the CorrollaMobile, Robin!"
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
Idi Amin was the leader of Uganda from 1971 through 1979 who was equally as evil. He recently died in exile in Saudi Arabia.
lemko, got a question pal. Did the wealthy drive Lincolns as often as Cadillac's ? Did Chrysler (American Motors) have anything that touched Cadillac or Lincoln back in the 50's 60's 70's ????? I guess the Imperial or was that more spartan ? If so why or how did thy lose that image.
-Rocky
In fact, that is when you could be proud of the Auto Industry, which was the USA's to loose.
As the story goes, the market changed (oil, regulations) and the response to the change in products was a total, horrible disaster, IMO. The Asians were junk back then but when Demming was thrown out by the Big 3, Japan embraced the Quality mantra. So it goes.
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
When I was a kid my dad bought my mom a new Plymouth Custom Suburban wagon. At the time the dealership also carried DeSotos and Imperials which were a separate division from Chrysler. They were right up there in overall luxury with Caddy and Lincoln but being Chrysler had something of that "Oh, Chrysler people. They are different," thing. I liked several of the mid-50s Imperials.
I don't recall when Imperial became the top of the Chrysler lineup instead of its own brand. As soon as that happened the Imperial became an on again off again thing.
In 1955 Chrysler spun off the Imperial as its own separate marque in an attempt to compete directly with the Cadillac and Lincoln luxury marques offered by both Ford and General Motors. See the separate page Imperial (automobile) for information about Imperial model years 1955-1975 and 1981-1983. Although there were no Imperials produced between 1976 and 1978, the cars previously sold as an Imperial were sold as the Chrysler New Yorker Brougham during this time."
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
"You can teah us anything, Demming! We're No. 1! How did you think we got there? Go sell your quality stuff to someone else!"
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
The Chrysler 300-C is close to what I'm looking for. I hope they build that Imperial concept. I know a "poor man's Phantom" would go over big in Philadelphia.
Shoot, two years ago I visited a Chrysler dealership with my girlfriend to look at a 300. People were literally driving 300s off the lot by the dozen! You'd think the dealer was giving the cars away! Girlfriend didn't buy a 300 that night. She complained that she couldn't see out of the car with its slit-like windows. She bought a new LaCrosse three months later.
Imperials had always been priced into Cadillac/Lincoln territory, but were sold under the Chrysler nameplate through 1954. While Chryslers were considered prestigious cars back then, they were still a rung below a Cadillac or Lincoln in the eyes of many buyers, and having the Chrysler name tacked on in front of Imperial dragged them down a bit, prestige-wise.
As a result, in 1955, Imperial was spun off as a separate brand, although over the course of its history, it never could truly shake off its Chrysler roots. The 1955-56 models were on the same platform as the DeSotos and Chryslers, with a stretched wheelbase, a 300 grille, and gunsight taillights.
The 1957 models were an all-new design, and on a different body from a Chrysler/DeSoto. They sold about 37,000 of them that year, and came close to passing Lincoln in sales, although Cadillac was still the luxury king back then, probably moving about 150-160,000 units.
In 1960, while the rest of Chrysler went unit-body, the Imperial just got a heavy redesign of the 1957-59 design. It was still body-on-frame, but a lot of unibody techniques were applied to the body itself, stiffening it up, so the end result was an incredibly beefy, sturdy car. So sturdy, in fact, that these things were often banned from demolition derbies because they were so tough!
Imperial milked the basic 1957 body through 1966. It was cleaned up considerably for 1964-66, being restyled by the same guy who did the '61 Continental, Elwood Engle. The only thing that really gave away its aging design was the wraparound windshield. However, the aging design must have hurt Imperial's prestige. And IIRC, in 1966, the much cheaper New Yorker went to a 440 engine standard, while the Imperial had to stick it out with a 413.
The Imperial went unit-body for 1967, and while it was still substantially different from a Chrysler, it still bore too much of a family resemblance. And it still used the same engine as a New Yorker, which had to hurt prestige. Cadillac and Lincoln didn't share their engines with cheaper divisions back then, and that gave them an air of exlusivity.
In 1969, Chrysler redesigned their big cars again, and the Imperial adopted the same "fuselage" look as the other cars. It lost a bit more prestige, but was still a handsome car with its clean lines, low silhouette, and hidden headlights. It was still longer overall than a Chrysler, but cars were getting so big in general by then that the difference wasn't all that noticeable.
In 1974, Chrysler released another round of redesigned big cars, just in time for the first energy crisis. They were actually a bit lighter and supposedly smaller than the 1969-73 models, and had very open, airy greenhouses for the time. But they still had a heavy, hulking look to them, just screaming out the fact that they were going to guzzle. By this time, the Imperial was on the same 124" wheelbase as the Chrysler Newport and New Yorker. The 1969-73 Imperials had been on a longer 127" wheelbase. The 1974 Imperial had hidden headlights, and a slightly different rear treatment than a New Yorker, and a ritzier interior. It was a poor seller, though, and was cancelled after 1975.
For 1976-78, Chrysler gave the New Yorker the same front-end as the 1974-75 Imperial, and offered a Brougham model that had an interior that could out-pimp any Cadillac or Lincoln out there at the time. It was probably considered more of a competitor to the Olds 98 or Buick Electra, but it would've been a worthy competitor to a Caddy or Lincoln of the time, as well.
In 1979, Chrysler did a half-baked redesign for their big cars. They took what was basically the 1971-78 intermediate, punched out the wheelbase a bit, gave it crisper, more modern sheetmetal, and passed it off as a full-sized car. The New Yorker was positioned about at the same level as the 98 and Electra, maybe a bit higher, while a plush 5th Avenue edition was priced at around $12,000, which was pushing into Cadillac/Lincoln territory. These cars had hidden headlights, in the tradition of the '75-78 New Yorker and the '69-75 Imperials. The second fuel crisis, widely publicized news of Chrysler's impending demise, and more heavy, hulking styling that just screamed "guzzler" ensured a quick demise, after a moderately successful 1979 run. They were ditched after 1981.
Now in 1981, Chrysler made one last attempt to stab at Cadillac/Lincoln territory, with the Imperial coupe. I think the first year it was priced at about $25,000, which was a ton of money back then, and production was to be limited to "just" 25,000. Alas, it was just a heavily modified Cordoba/Mirada, which itself was a heavily modified Aspen/Volare, and was plagued with fuel injection problems that made conversion to a 2-bbl carb very common. They sold about 7200 units for 1981, and sales went nowhere but down through 1983, when it was pulled, along with the Cordoba/Mirada.
Chrysler tried yet another stab at reviving the Imperial around 1989. As if basing an Imperial on a Volare wasn't bad enough, this time it was based on the K-car! Needless to say, it was a flop. However, it also wasn't all that expensive to produce, as the same basic car was available as the Dynasty, New Yorker, and 5th Avenue, so they built it through around 1993. It was replaced, in a sense, by the 1994 Chrysler LHS.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually, the 300 has brought a lot of prestige back to Chrysler, so it could serve well as the basis for an Imperial. That is, IF they don't screw it up like you said!
Honestly, for Chrysler to return to the type of prestige that they had in the 40's, 50's, or even up to the mid-70's, they need to drop the Sebring, quit putting the Chrysler badge on trucks, and make a V-8 standard in the 300.
One nice thing about having Plymouth around is that Chrysler could still keep some dignity about themselves. Cars like the 1958 Windsor, 1961 Newport, and to a lesser degree the 1975 Cordoba and 1977 LeBaron, took Chrysler downscale, but once Plymouth got the axe and stuff like the PT Cruiser, Voyager minivan, and the cheapened 2001 Sebring hit the market, Chrysler suddenly found themselves trying to fill the gap left by Plymouth, and that really moved them downmarket IMO.
Not that there's anything wrong with the PT Cruiser. I just think it should be a Plymouth or, at best, a Dodge. And the Sebring convertible could just as easily be an Avenger convertible.
Not that there's anything wrong with the PT Cruiser. I just think it should be a Plymouth or, at best, a Dodge. And the Sebring convertible could just as easily be an Avenger convertible."
Absolutely correct. Killing Plymouth was a huge strategical blunder and they haven't recovered yet.
When Daimler got into the act the idea was they were going to move Chrysler upscale. Once they decided to kill Plymouth that went right out the window.
I'm pretty pessimistic about Chrysler's long term survival and that is a shame.
I think most of the writing was on the wall by the early 90's, when Plymouth didn't get a version of the Intrepid/Concorde. And then a few years later, when the Stratus/Cirrus sedans came out, they half-heartedly added the Plymouth Breeze the following year, sticking it only with an undersized 2.0 or a 2.4, but no V-6 option as on the Dodges and Chryslers.
Dumb move and one you saw coming when there wasn't a Plymouth Intrepid.
They'd have been better if they'd cut it clean earlier. The way it was handled was about as badly as it could be andthe result was all the Chrysler dealers wanting cheaper cars which watered down the Chrysler brand.
I don't think there has been someone at the helm of Chrysler that really knew what he wanted to do since Iacocca - and he only had that one platform to work from!
Obama, a Democratic presidential candidate and senator from Illinois, also said his blueprint would provide up to $3 billion to Detroit auto companies and their suppliers to retool factories to produce more fuel-efficient vehicles. Auto companies that would invest in such vehicles would also get help in paying for current and retired workers' health-care expenses, he said. Obama spoke to the Detroit Economic Club, but the CEOs of Ford, Chrysler and GM were not in attendance.
His plan includes a 4-percent-per-year increase in fuel economy standards starting in 2009. By 2022, the fuel economy standard for cars and light trucks would be 40 mpg. The current federal standards are 27.5 mpg for cars and 24 mpg for trucks. Obama would also like fuel-efficiency standards for cars to be rewritten so that mileage requirements are set according to vehicle size, rather than a one-size-fits-all standard.
Despite the tough talk, Obama's speech was interrupted 10 times for applause. But the Chicago Sun-Times noted that he is now being chauffeured to campaign stops in what they called "Secret Service gas guzzlers" instead of his flex-fuel Chevy Tahoe.
What this means to you: Obama doesn't pull any punches in Motown, but his plan is similar to the one proposed by the Bush administration.
What this means to me: He might earn my vote as he is offering REAL solutions with finacial assistance instead of lip service.
-Rocky
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120691
And yeah, executive pay is a domestic issue....there have been several reports on the subject, and I believe there is still some sort of Congressional investigation ongoing.
The international competition is driving changes...it just takes more time than everyone expects to see those changes.
The asians have a better business model as far as I can see.
Regards,
OW
Shinya Naruse, auto analyst with Nomura Securities in Tokyo, said toppling GM in global vehicle production is just the latest in Toyota's victories because it has already beaten GM in profit, which is more important.
"But it is a very visible step, and it's only a matter of time," he said. "It's difficult to give one explanation for Toyota's success but it's simply its ability to come up with attractive products that sell."
Regards,
OW
Well, it makes sense if you look at how most executives are compensated here. Primarily they're contracted for x number of years and x number of dollars, flat. "Bonuses" are written in too, and so aren't really bonuses. To fire the guy, a company has to pay extra on TOP of the contracted money, so they're out the cash whether they keep him on or not. The only part of the compensation that's tied to performance are the stock options, and those are vulnerable to manipulation (hence encouraging our wonderful theoretical exec to manipulate).
So in essence what we have is an employee who's pay is not tied to their job performance, and who will be paid the same amount whether or not they do a bad job or are even fired. Hence there isn't even an INCENTIVE to perform. Not too sure how they do it in other countries...anyone know?
Not even A-ROD makes that kind of money. Well Oscar DeLahoya came close last Saturday $25 million as my home boy Pretty Boy Floyd Mayweather Jr. from my hometown of Grand Rapids, Mi. laid the whippen stick on him. Floyd, owns quite a few domestic vehicles. Mainly blinged out SUV's :shades:
-Rocky
don't pay themselves more than 25% than the man underneath them.
-Rocky
I don't know if it was coincidence or not, but in 2002, Chrysler de-contented the Intrepid. And that was right around the time that the last Plymouth rolled off the assembly line. It was a white Neon, but I can't remember now if it was an '02 or an '03.
I used to consider Dodge a step up from Ford or Chevy because, well, once upon a time it was! But as time went by, Dodge started getting more models that competed with Chevy, while Plymouth would simply do without. Even back in the 70's, Plymouth never got a Monte Carlo type of personal luxury coupe. That was left to Dodge, with the Charger S/E and, later, the Magnum and Mirada. But then, by the 70's, Chrysler was getting really bad about badge-engineering cars, so there really wasn't much difference between a Cordoba and a Charger S/E, whereas there was still plenty to differentiate a Cutlass Supreme, Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, and Regal.
And some years, they really struggled to try to slap together some Plymouth models. For example, to make the 1980 Gran Fury, they basically took a Chrysler Newport, blacked out some parts of the grille, and slapped St. Regis taillights on it! I had an '89 Gran Fury, and the only way I knew to tell them apart from a Dodge Diplomat was to read the badging! Someone did point out to me though, that the Gran Fury used some blackout trim on the taillight assembly, while the Diplomat's was a lighter gray. And up front, it was just the opposite, with some parts of the Diplomat's grille blacked out, while it was just light gray on the Gran Fury.
Fire Rocket at Will!
Regards,
OW
That was the Diplomat S/E, which was the luxury model of the Diplomat. It had a pretty nice cloth interior, and may have had a few other features like standard air conditioning. I think it came out for 1985 and was offered through the end in 1989. The regular Diplomats still kept the traditional front-end, where the grille tapered out under the headlights and housed the turn signals.
-Rocky
Daniel, wrote a incredible article which I have to agree with him. :sick:
-Rocky
If you say you can't, you're DONE. No policy change or bail out can help.
If you say you can, you WILL!
No more excuses will save the big 3. My prediction is the same. They already are taking the first statement to heart and claiming fowl on CAFE.
Regards,
OW
can you back up this claim? Otherwise, please stop distributing this xenophobic nonsense. I work in a science department of a major research university. All our undergraduates pay tuition (which may be partially offset by scholarships based on need and/or academic merit).
There are no grants (that I am aware of) that give American (tax) money to students because they are foreign. Of course, some of the foreign students may come with money from *their* government.
On the other hand, *all* of our graduate students are supported by assistantships. We would love to bring in more American students but there are almost *no* applicants. It is very sad, actually.
Sorry for going OT, but it always irks me when somebody is propagating xenophobic rumors. And, btw, science and engineering graduates typically make $50k a year, not $25-35k.
>>>Well from what I understand their are special "grants" given to foreign students. It's kind of hard to be able to afford sending your child to a engineering school when it will set he/she/parents back six-figures while the foreign student has their education nearly paid for.
If you happen to be a foreign graduate student on a fellowship then use you will get a Stipend, not a Grant there is a differance, just like all the other graduate students for the work you do in research or teaching.
Perhaps that's the way it is where you are. I have been told the same thing years back in my corner of the world about both of our major universities in this immediate area. There are major problems.
>me when somebody is propagating xenophobic rumors.
Reminds me of long ago if one used a pronous "they" to refer to a group of people, the PR folks jumped all over that accusingly.
I'm done--back on topic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm glad someone understood about the foreign students. Lots of interesting info in your post. It all fits what I've observed. I recall several students complaining that their graduate students who led study groups or taught classes couldn't even be understood at the local univerisities. I haven't heard that as much since late 1990s maybe for 10 years in other words. I wonder what has changed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
>>>First, several governments pay the US university for the student to attend (I 100 % know this was true for several students from 1995-1999 for students from Thailand and Venezuela).
Of course, this is true (see my post). Fortunately, higher education in this country is still internationally competitive. Now, you have to tell me, why this is a bad thing. It brings extra money to the university (and the US as a whole - current account deficit anyone?) which can then hire more Profs etc. How would that displace American students?
>>> Second, most engineering professors are marginally competent. Their research proposals are total crap.
That's a pretty broad brush, don't you think... If the Profs are so bad, the foreign governments would be pretty stupid to pay for their students educated here. But no, this is of course a conspiracy to let foreigners take over the US.
If you disagree with my assessment of professor competence, tabulate the percentage of US affiliated based papers in the major science journals (Nature, Science, Applied Physics Letter, JACS, Cell, etc.) as a function of time. Of course, I'm sure I'll hear that it is a good thing in todays "globalized" world if the statistics aren't flattering to US universities. My point is that the timing of the bill that enabled US universities to profit directly from patents (1980) correlated well with the sliding US dollar and "globalization". Is this a coincidence or perhaps the training and then patenting of information at the university has enabled other countries (via highly trained foreign students that are actually PhD's in other countries going back to their home country after 4-6 years) that do not respect patent laws to "catch up" with US technology in one generation? Just a thought.
Apparently, he appreciates a big, fast car as much as those Detroit executives he criticizes.