Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave

nastacio · September 2007

Like I said, 8-9 seconds from 0-60 is a good sprint. The lambdas also have sufficient mass and sound insulation to quell any unbecoming movements/noises caused by gear changes under full throttle.

My initial point was that more torque could benefit the lambda's in terms of mpg, which derailed into an unwanted V8 argument.

Add DSI to the current GM V6 or bore it out another 0.2 liter, keeping the same mpg target (or maybe an extra mpg) and the lambdas will be one step closer to 3-row CUV supremacy.

allmet33 · September 2007

More torque than it already has, or just make the available torque available at a lower rpm???

With the CUV segment really being young, which company would you say currently sports the crown???

nastacio · September 2007

There isn't a V-8 on the market that won't make you feel it in the pockets when you floor it for any reason!!! You can almost WATCH the fuel gauge go down when you do that!!!

Agreed, but given the same vehicle weight, a V6 making peak torque of 251 lb.ft and a V8 making 400 lb.ft, the V8 has to rev less to achieve the same torque numbers. On the flip side, the bigger engine consumes more gas per revolution, so there is an "optimal" point of revs vs. size where you get the best mileage.

Variable-valve timing affects that optimal point significantly, and in absence of data, I will not even try to sustain the case for a V8 being more fuel efficient than a V6 under certain conditions. However, bear in mind that while you are achieving the same 0-60 numbers flooring from 0-60 on a 3.6 V6, you wouldn't have to exceed 4000 rpm on a push-rod 5.3 liter V8.

Add variable cylinder management, and that V8 will sip gas like a 2.7 or 4 liter engine under sane driving habits.

allmet33 · September 2007

But don't they already have variable cylinder management for the likes of the Hemi??? The only time this actually works is when the vehicle is at cruising speeds or you're very light on the gas pedal. Under normal driving conditions for most...that won't happen.

chuckhoy · September 2007

Depends on what you are looking for.

Sheer space: Lambda wins hands down. Carry 7 easily and room behind 3rd row.

Economy: Freestyle (while it lasts) wins due to car-like mpg numbers

Driving: CX-9 (i guess, never drove one) based on what people are saying in these parts.

BTW: I have never had a lack of power issue with my Outlook. It accelerates up entrance ramps with ease. Once I got used to the bulk, it is an easy car to live with. There was an earlier post that said that it has to rev up to 5000 rpms to get up a driveway. I find that hard to believe unless the driveway needs a sherpa to get up normally. Must be a pain in the winter months.

nastacio · September 2007

More torque than it already has, or just make the available torque available at a lower rpm???

The GM v6 is a gem, it already peaks high (for a 3.6) at relatively low (3200 rpms). Now that I wrote that, I realize that if they already managed to move the VVT shift point above that number, more torque wouldn't help mpg.

As for the performance crown, I think the Highlander V6 3.5 is unbeatable. Toyota has been putting down some serious hp/mpg numbers with its V6 and V8 engines. Don't get fooled by peak numbers, they not only have those, but they also achieve those rpm numbers faster than other engines, almost, if not, Honda-like.

C&D clocked the 08 Highlander at 7 seconds from 0-60. That will leave not only the Outlook, but even a Saturn *Sky* in the dust.

allmet33 · September 2007

You know the other thing that may be an issue? The more I drive my Outlook, I realize the gas pedal has a very stiff feel to it. So it really SEEMS like you have to push it further down to make things happen. In reality, it just takes more effort to push it, which makes it seem like you're pushing it further.

nastacio · September 2007

That is some gas-saving engineering - even if unintended - right there :-)

allmet33 · September 2007

I guess if even saving an extra gallon or 2, huh? LOL

62vetteefp · September 2007

Brian MacDonald is one driver attracted by GM's new crossovers. An investment-fund manager in California, Mr. MacDonald has driven nothing but BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes for the past 20 years. But last month, with the lease on his Mercedes ML-Class winding down, Mr. MacDonald leased a $45,000 Enclave, the most luxurious of GM's three models.

"If someone had told me a few months ago I'd be driving a Buick, my reaction would have been 'no way, no how,' " says Mr. MacDonald, 46 years old. The Enclave, he said, offers the roominess to haul around his three young children and the styling and interior comforts he was accustomed to with the Mercedes. Because the Mercedes ML sells for about $30,000 more than the Enclave, his monthly payment on the Buick was almost $300 lower.
But it is an uphill battle. About two-thirds of the vehicles GM sells through its dealerships go to customers who trade in GM vehicles, according to data from the Power Information Network, a division of J.D. Power & Associates. Only a fraction  less than 3 percent  go to people trading in vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. or Honda Motor Co.

The three new crossovers do much better. Half of all Acadias and Outlooks go to customers who trade in GM vehicles; about 20 percent go to people trading Asian-brand vehicles. For the Enclave, the numbers are slightly lower but still better: 44 percent of all trade-ins are non-GM brands; 14 percent of the trade-ins are Asian vehicles.

saturn_comm · September 2007

Our data shows that Outlook has a 57 percent conquest rate as measured by trade-ins. In other words, for those purchasing/leasing an Outlook and trading-in a vehicle, 57 percent traded-in a non-GM vehicle.

chuckhoy · September 2007

I would say that is astoundingly good. I was not a conquest. I traded in a Saturn for an Outlook. With the service and reliability I have gotten from Saturn in the past, they are going to be my first place to look for future cars.

Man, I sound like a homer shill.

allmet33 · September 2007

Me and my wife would be in that 57 percentile, we traded in an X-Terra for our Outlook.

However, I can see those not wanting the mini-van (Relay) or the older Vue, stepping up into something like the Outlook. Especially if they like the service they received being previous Saturn owners.

nastacio · September 2007

I think an absolute measurement of success is market share, which is not to say that the lambda's are not winning there.

gleppert · September 2007

Any Outlook owners having issues with the driver's seat? Purchased the vehicle the end of February and haven't enjoyed driving it since - in fact, I'm beginning to hate driving it!

The lack of support in the wide seats and the curvature of the center console into the accelerator are the main issues. Three days after purchase, I developed a pain in my right hip, leg and lower back that I have yet to resolve. I am completely distracted with the discomfort and am seriously thinking of trading it in - ouch!!! - barring some resolution.

Does Saturn's stellar customer service include buying back the vehicle at a reasonable price??!!

allmet33 · September 2007

Wow...didn't any of this jump out at you when you took the test drive??? Please don't tell me your idea of a test drive is one time around the block and back into the lot! I have seen this a lot lately where folks take a short cruise around the block and then they are back in the sales office signing paperwork.

Are you talking XE or XR, I ask because it could be the difference between cloth or leather seats. I have an XR and the leather seats are very supportive and quite comfortable. To date, the longest I've spent behind the wheel at any one given time period is about 2 hours. I'm looking forward to the trek down to the in-laws (4 hour drive to NC).

People, do yourself a favor...if you're serious about buying a vehicle, ask them to allow you to take it home so you can haven an opportunity to drive it where you normally drive to see if it suits you. If not take it home, allow for an extended test drive period that will accomodate you spending some quality time with the vehicle.

Considering you've had the vehicle going on 7 months, you're way beyond a buy-back program (1st 30 days...maybe).

Maybe you should go test an Enclave or Acadia and see if you have the same issues in either of them. Good luck!!!

nastacio · September 2007

A short test-drive is somewhat unforgivable for a Saturn. The dealer let me keep the car from Saturday 1PM until Monday 1PM. I drove 100 miles on it, anywhere from a 30 minute drive to visit friends to a grocery store visit.

True to Saturn's premise, no questions asked or pressure when I returned the keys.

I am secretly hoping my wife will find fault on our pre-ordered CX-9 before it arrives, because I really wanted an Outlook or Enclave - and they are cheaper too :-)

Or maybe I could just make up some story about reading stories of blown-up CX-9 engines in the Internet forums... :-)

62vetteefp · September 2007

How different are the Outlook and Acadia? Been driving the Acadia for 3 months/6000 miles and love it including the seats.

bhaynes · September 2007

did you buy any of these
i am looking at getting an enclave but thinking of buying it from the states where i am told they are abot ten grand less for some reason
thanks

joeblack1 · September 2007

Interesting that you should mention that. It seems like a lot of the new cars have consoles that invade the area where I would want to naturally relax my right foot into. I have knee problems that get much worse when I drive cars like that. That is one reason why I am keeping my 98 Suburban for now. It is nice and open in the middle, and I can just let my right foot relax without holding it more straight up and down. I wasn't going to mention this because I thought I was the only one who had a problem with it. I did drive the Acadia and did not find it very good for me in this regard. I had similar problems with the CX-9. I wish I could find one that actually that had more foot space. If anyone else has noticed, please let me know.

One thought is that if you get under there, you may be able to remove pieces of the console and free up some space. I did this with another car.

gleppert · September 2007

Took a 30 minute test drive in traffic and then had the vehicle for 6 hours on a Saturday afternoon and took it for several drives, including a 30- and 40-minute jaunt. Had no issues regarding comfort. The longest trip, 3 days after purchase, was 1.5 hours. Developed the pain that I thought would be alleviated by changing the positions on the power seat. Nothing works!!

Never had such an issue in any vehicle in 30+ years of driving so I never thought after I bought, "Gee, I hope in 3 days my leg and back don't start hurting."

I have the XE. Sat in leather XR in showroom. Seats appeared to be identical to my XE but maybe I'll take an XR for a few days. I was told the 2008s would be in soon but I doubt that GM made any changes to the seats.

I'm fairly certain the problem is unique to me but thought perhaps that others may be experiencing some discomfort and may have found a reasonable solution.

Mea culpa! I'm SOL and next time I'll know better. Maybe I just wanted the vehicle to work out since it was ideal for our family and I think one of the best values out there.

allmet33 · September 2007

I can tell you, the leather seats in the XR are a bit firmer. I test drove the XE initially and I just couldn't seem to get comfortable in the seat. However, in our XR...I'm fine.

You must have some huge feet or something. I'm 6'2", 215 lbs and I wear a size 12. I don't have an issue with the center console crowding the gas pedal at all.

Maybe you should consider a seat cushion, I know you can find them of varying firmness. Don't know what to tell you about the console issue.

Another good value out there is the Hyundai Veracruz. I test drove one yesterday just to see what it was about. The only issues I had with it were, not as much space behind the 3rd row seat as the Outlook, the 3rd row isn't as easily accessible as the Outlook and captain's chairs aren't an option.

The other thing that threw me off a bit with the Veracruz was the driver's seat seemed too high. However, to be honest...it's no higher than in the Outlook, but the side windows are lower, so it makes it seem like you're sitting up higher. I guess after driving the Outlook, it just felt weird, that's all. On the plus side, great seat comfort, throttle response to the gas pedal is very good, manual mode on transmission much easier to use, great Infinity sound system, ride comfort comparable to the Outlook. Fully loaded, a Veracruz will run you around $36K. I've seen Outlooks go for just over $41K fully loaded.

62vetteefp · September 2007

I can tell you, the leather seats in the XR are a bit firmer. I test drove the XE initially and I just couldn't seem to get comfortable in the seat. However, in our XR...I'm fine.

The cushions are the same. Leather does not give like cloth and will make the seats feel firmer.

allmet33 · September 2007

Okay...I didn't say the cushions were different. I just stated that the leather seats felt firmer than the cloth ones...that's all.

62vetteefp · September 2007

Just agreeing with you and saying why

allmet33 · September 2007

Oh...okay, my bad.

gleppert · September 2007

Thanks, maybe I'll try the leather seats.

I don't have Shaq-size feet! The problem is that the console encroaches on the foot well. My foot, like probably most people, has a natural tendency to move outward. I can't do that because of the console which causes my foot to turn inward which is probably tweaking my hip joint and causing the pain.

I'm using an orthopedic cushion and have another seat cover on top. Helping a bit, but it isn't large enough to cover the entire seat so my legs still droop and have no support under the front.

Because I'm elevated due to the cushions the area is even more reduced. Another issue is the steering wheel/column. Calling it a tilt steering wheel is a misnomer. It doesn't tilt, it SLIDES up and down! To accommodate the down position the steering column extends several inches downward between your legs. My knees bump into it and it makes it a bit cumbersome to climb in and out.

Regarding the Veracurz, seen a few but haven't been in one. For me, high seats would be better because I'd have more support under my legs as I do with our Odyssey. Because the Outlook sits high off the ground, the seat can only go so far up without your head going thru the roof. For me, without the height and support, I'm sitting ON the seat, not IN it!!

chuckhoy · September 2007

Would cranking up the lumbar support help? On my XR, the lumbar support can be adjusted for both how much it sticks out and where it is located vertically.

I have taken mine on a 6+ hour road-trip and it was as comfortable as a seat could be. My butt starts to hurt sitting in any chair for more than an hour. It had enough thigh support. I did adjust it a few times during the trip because as I sit for prolonged periods of time, different positions are more comfortable than others.

Sorry about the problems. Nothing can make a car more misreble to own than one that makes you, physically, hurt. It's too bad.

allmet33 · September 2007

Honestly...if the problem is your foot angle, the seating won't change that. That would seem more an orthotic issue than anything else. I've looked at the center console, it doesn't curve in towards the gas pedal, it's just really close to it, but I have noticed that I have room to wiggle my foot side to side without hitting the console at all.

You don't have the power seats, do you? I know in the XR, you can adjust the angle of the seat by raising the front end and lowering the rear end of it. If you have that ability...try doing that.

Maybe the XE is different, but the steering wheel in our XR both tilts (up and down) and telescopes (back and forth). Maybe you have a defective column.

I can't speak on the footwell area of the Veracruz as I wasn't paying attention to that, but I didn't have any issues with my feet down there at all. The seating seemed to be a bit more accomodating than the Outlook, but I find the Outlook's seats to be comfortable too. As I stated before, I don't think the seats in the Veracruz actually sit higher, the lowness of the side windows makes it seem as such. I will say, the view from the Veracruz is more open. Oh yeah...the side view mirrors are terrific compared to the Outlook's! LOL

Maybe you should go test drive one and see what you think. You might be able to trade your Outlook in and end up getting a bit back (depending on your financing).

gleppert · September 2007

I do have the lumbar support but adjusting doesn't affect my hips, leg or back.

I do have power seats and have experimented with each position 100X over!!

The steering column is not defective, that is how it is engineered. My definition of tilt is that you have a single fixed pivot point and the steering wheel should move in a semi-circular arc without moving the pivot point. In the Outlook, the pivot point isn't stationary inside the dash so to speak. The steering wheel moves up and down as does the pivot point. The arc or angle of the wheel never changes, it just slides up and down. If it actually tilted, the distance of the top, or bottom, of the wheel would change in relation to its distance from the dash. When you tilt up, the top of the wheel would be closer to the dash. Tilted down, the top of the wheel would be further from the dash.

Working on the problem and trying to make it tolerable. As to comfortable, probably not in the cards! Getting too old and too many physical breakdowns I suppose. Little things are making a big difference!!

allmet33 · September 2007

Man...I'm sorry to hear it.

The steering colum does actually pivot, it's just the way the shroud is designed, you can't see it. I know when it's at it's lowest position, the top of the steering wheel is away from the face of the dash. When it's at it's highest point, the top of the steering wheel is closer. You can also see the angle of the wheel change as it goes up too. When it's down, it's almost verticle.

Good luck.

62vetteefp · September 2007

My definition of tilt is that you have a single fixed pivot point and the steering wheel should move in a semi-circular arc without moving the pivot point. In the Outlook, the pivot point isn't stationary inside the dash so to speak. The steering wheel moves up and down as does the pivot point. The arc or angle of the wheel never changes, it just slides up and down. If it actually tilted, the

The new Outlook and various other GM vehicles are now using the cheaper system of tilt ~~wheel~~ column used in the japanese vehicles. The pivot point is much further forward (near firewall) than the old Saginaw Tilt Wheel from the past (pivot located just forward of wheel). As you say it is really meant to be set in the driving position and left there. The Saginaw system was meant to be moved easily up and out of the way when exiting the vehicle.

Why is the japanese way cheaper? Lot cheaper to manufacture and also much easier to design w/o worrying about column accordianing. (chest intrusion)

allmet33 · September 2007

Makes sense to me!

nastacio · September 2007

I have two Japanese vehicles (Nissan and Honda,) and had an issue with the Outlook steering-wheel angle that was new to me: it was low, even at its highest setting.

I had to lower the seat more than I would like to and tilt the wheel all the way up.

62vetteefp · September 2007

Thats different than the original issue started here. I have not noticed it not going high enough but I will check and see if it is at the highest setting now for me. I am pretty sure my seat is all the way up. But I am only 5'10".

I do know I can put it down so far that the gages are actually above the top of the rim!! Did that on a long trip to give me a slightly different hand to wheel orientation. Just playing around.

nelsoncm · September 2007

Last summer, I traded my trusty Saab station wagon for a Jeep Grand Cherokee (finally succumbing to the SUV craze) and developed such bad hip and back pain on my right side (the "driving leg" side) that after 2.5 months, I went back to another Saab wagon and lost a ton of $$$$ in the process. I'm short, the pedals sat off to the left and the seats sat high in the Jeep. Even with adjustable pedals, I couldn't make the car work for me. In shopping many vehicles before running back to Saab, one dealer said to me of my plight "sometimes, a car just doesn't fit you." And he was right. Sad part is, my hip never did fully recover from the contorting I had to do reaching the brake pedal in that stupid Jeep. If you're in pain in your vehicle, and you know it's the car, get out of it! Good luck!

62vetteefp · September 2007

Well I looked and yes, the wheel is up as high as it goes. But it was the perfect position for me. Seat was all the way up to. So if a 6'2" person had the seat all the way up, the wheel would probably be slightly blocking the top of gages. Of course I would think the seat could be lowered for that tall of a person but with all that headroom and the higher door sills they may put the seat all the way up.

gleppert · September 2007

Just curious! When did your pain start? Mine started after a 1.5 hour trip 3 days after purchase. Decided a seat adjustment would take care of it but it never did. Never experienced it during the test drives. I'm fairly certain I would have as I feel it the instant I climb in now. Spent 10 days in Miami in May driving a rental and had no problems. Came home, jumped behind the wheel of the Outlook, never got out of the neighborhood before I started feeling that characteristic twinge of hip and back pain.

I really would like to drive the vehicle, but wouldn't hesitate to get rid of it if I wasn't going to take a bath in trade. So much for value!! Looks like your dealer's adage, "Sometimes, a car just doesn't fit you" just went up by one!!!

seloo · September 2007

Based on this board, this car gives me an uneasy feeling.

- Safety problems with rear crash data

- Poor rear visibility

- Seat problems

- Fixed Pricing!!!

I think I will pass.

chuckhoy · September 2007

- Safety problems with rear crash data
As near as I could tell, it has not been tested yet in a crash-test setting. The only test that was done was an isolated test on the headrest. That is not very conclusive to me.

- Poor rear visibility
I think it is a symptom of the size and type of vehicle it is. You would have the same problems from a CX-9, big SUV, minivan or other large vehicles that sit high off the ground.

- Seat problems
One person. Pretty much everyone else has not had a problem. I think they are comfy.

- Fixed Pricing!!!
Yes, because it is a Saturn. If you like to haggle you can get an Acadia or Enclave. They are the same as the Outlook for the most part.

I think I will pass.
That is up to you, but you will not find a CUV with more cargo space. The only other alternative is a minivan or big SUV.

nastacio · September 2007

I agree, most of these sins are shared by other CUVs, but the fixed pricing is what gets me.

Of course one can always go and buy something else, but in our area the situation is a bit curious. The Buick dealer is right across the street from the Saturn dealer, and very soon, the Enclaves will enter the rebate/haggling zone, offering a supposedly upscale version of the Outlook at a lower price.

As for the rear crash data, I don't think manufacturers actually rear end their cars, but only measure the headrests and simulate the effects of a rear collision putting the front seats on a sled. Some claim that the lambdas fared so poorly on the measurement that no one bothered to put the seats on a sled, but I could not find any concrete information about it.

As for facts regarding a supposed Outlook deficiency, the 2nd and 3rd row headrests are not adjustable.

allmet33 · September 2007

Wow...you're basing your conclusion on the postings of one or two people???

Do yourself a favor and go test drive one of the Lambda vehicles for yourself to see if you have any issues with it.

I truly don't think the rear visibility is poor, it's just a vehicle that sits up higher off the ground. If you consider it to be bad in one of these, what do you think a full sized SUV would be like? Honestly, it's nothing a back up camera couldn't fix. Personally...I don't have an issue with the rear visibility.

To be specific, there are no problems with the seats themselves. It's more an issue of anatomy for the drivers.

Fixed pricing??? Where have you been, that's been Saturns niche since day 1. If you want to haggle the price, then go after the Acadia or Enclave, or any of the other CUV's on the market if you're looking for one.

nastacio · September 2007

Where have you been, that's been Saturns niche since day 1.

How did they ever move things like the Ion and the Relay? $5K factory rebates?

stever · September 2007

If you want to haggle the price

Or take a trade-in with you.

nastacio · September 2007

Hmmmm....are you implying that Saturn may overestimate your trade in for slow selling vehicles?

txbricklayer · September 2007

My wife and I took an Enclave test drive today---nice. Checked the sticker afterward----approx. $37K. But there was a hand written add-on for 'market conditions'---$4,000.
This dealer is in Houston. No, thanks.

nastacio · September 2007

Give it 6 months - if you can - otherwise you are going to lose those 4k and some more.

chuckhoy · September 2007

That is why I think that a comparably equipped Outlook is probably the better deal right now in some areas. The no-haggle plus the $1,000 incentive probably makes it a better deal.

mchappell · September 2007

My wife and I have noticed a couple of changes in the design of front seats since we bought our Suburban in 2000. First, the seat cushions seem to be getting shorter, front-to-back, which causes pressure points mid-thigh. Second, and most critical to us, is the fact that manufacturers seem to think that you can never have enough lumbar support. We are 40 and 41, and have never had a problem with any seats in any cars we have owned or driven. However, starting with a Honda Odyssey we bought new in January '06, we have noticed the two problems mentioned above. The Odyssey's seats caused my wife so much pain, that we had to get rid of it after 2 months. We did not take an extended test drive since we had never experienced this problem in the past. The only seats that we didn't have any lumbar issues with were in an '06 Caravan and the '06 Hyundai's (Sonata, Azera, Entourage). Heck, we rented a Grand Marquis for a couple of days, thinking the seats would be like a big comfy couch (you know, for all of the old people

). It was the worst of the bunch, and we returned it early.

Is there, indeed, an industry-wide move to make auto seats more orthopedically 'correct'? Is our posture so bad that these 'correct' seats cause us more harm then good?

We are now in an '07 Outlook. I'm still not thrilled with the lumbar support, as it's only the 'least-bad' of everything we looked at that met our needs. I think the only saving grace is the fact that the Outlook lets you move the lumbar up and down, as well as in and out. I just wish it would move in a little more.

Prior to the last 18 months, I had never given any thoughts to seats. Now, I think about it every time I drive. I'd really like my Suburban back, even with the high gas prices. (and yes, we did look at new Suburbans - they weren't nearly as comfortable or roomy as our 2000, IMO).

Mark

stever · September 2007

are you implying that Saturn may overestimate your trade in for slow selling vehicles

Never tried it, but why not? Shouldn't be too hard to finagle the numbers to bump up the value of your creampuff.

Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles