Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

averigejoe · February 2006

In that first article, the Lucerne cost about $10,000 more than the ohter 2 cars mentioned, Avalon and Grand Marquis.
For that extra money it better be a pretty nice car!

zodiac2004 · February 2006

Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. I drive about 30,000-60,000 miles (3-6 years of driving) before I either sell or trade in. Since I drive low miles and take care of vehicles, leasing makes sense UNLESS the car I want to lease has a low residual value. It appears that the Azera falls into that category. Most resale indexes list Hyundai as a 1 or 2 on a scale of 5 in resale value. If the vehicle depreciates a lot, I will be paying higher than average lease payments based upon the vehicles new value. In other words, I would get a LOT less car for the money leasing a car that doesn't hold its value.

If you trade/sell your cars in 3-6 years, there is no way a Hyundai is going to be cheaper than a Toyota.

If you negotiate right, the higher purchase prices for the Toyota will be definitely worth it in lower maintenance costs and higher resale.

People may say Hyundai is on par with Toyota in terms of quality these days, but the professionals who deal with cars everyday still believe the opposite. And the market still views Hyundais with suspicion.

It will take years of consistently building cars of high quality to gain that reputation - and building 1 or 2 model years of good cars (if you believe Hyundai is) can't make up for a decade of producing junk.

ikces81 · February 2006

That is why hyundai is launching 7 new models in 24 months or so...
Also the resale value is determind by the supply and demand, if a 5 year old azera costs 10k and a similar avalon cost 15k+, it means there has to be alot of ppl willing to pay more than 50percent for a similar car (assuming the azera's reliability is proven).

ikces81 · February 2006

here is a good article on resale values, its on the australian market, but the basics are the same...

link title

even thou the toyota does retain higher resale values, its not significantly better in terms of initial price paid. Also the toyota resale values wont get any better, but the hyundai ones definiatly should increase.

captain2 · February 2006

right on the mark - if that Azera is bought at $28k and a comparable Av XLS at $32k, but 5 years down the road the Azera residual is $10k, while the Toyota is $16k - which car is then the better value? Leases will always be based on the new cost - the residual value (with assummed mileages and vehicle conditions) that divided by the term (in months) - plus that high interest rate, of course. That difference will, of course, become negligible for those of us that keep cars for a longer period and/or well into 6 digit mileages - at which point, if history holds, the Toyota should be cheaper to maintain.
The Azera may turn out to be a great car which should, if true, adjust that resale index upward - until that point - the car (as well as anything else) is, as you say, only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it.

snakeweasel · February 2006

if that Azera is bought at $28k and a comparable Av XLS at $32k, but 5 years down the road the Azera residual is $10k, while the Toyota is $16k - which car is then the better value?

Would you believe me if I said the Azera? taking into account taxes on the extra $4,000 the extra payment on the Avalon would be over $80/month. Invest that extra $80/month and you could more than make up for the $6,000 difference in the resale values. When looking at this sort of thing you have to look at the time value of money. $4,000 today is worth more than that 5 years from now.

ricwhite · February 2006

I think we can debate back and forth whether the Azera or Avalon is more costly. But I think the point is . . . it's very close. Those that say the Azera is "much cheaper" are missing other factors which affect cost over the term of ownership or lease. It is not "much cheaper."

Resale value may improve for Hyundai, but it will not skyrocket overnight. And if somebody is looking to lease an Azera, they will be basing the residual value on conservative older value indicators which are currently quite low -- thus raising the lease cost substantially and making it much more even with the more expensive Avalon (or other cars such as the Acura TL).

Azera may hold up very well with performance and features with those other vehicles but the "cost" of ownership is also fairly even. You can't use the "much cheaper" argument to tip the scales in favor of the Azera since it's not accurate.

ctalk · February 2006

Actually, I was wondering, since a lot of people seem to say the Azera is, "much cheaper."
How do they know?
What pieces of information are they relying on to support this statement? (It may very well be much cheaper, but I'm wondering how people calculated the difference)

Like you stated, did they include the other factors that contribute to ownership cost? If they didn't, how can they say it is much cheaper.

wolverinejoe80 · February 2006

ricwhite · February 2006

That's all fine and dandy, but did you notice the HUGE mistake -- They put the steering wheel on the right. How could they miss that! That's a pretty big mistake, if they can't even put the instruments and steering wheel on the correct side of the car. It really doesn't matter how good the car looks if they can put it together correctly.

tinydog1 · February 2006

It is all fine and dandy, just the way it is. Hyundai builds both left and right hand drive vehicles depending on market. They sell the Azera (Granduer) in the U.K., Japan and Australia. Right hand drives, remember.

barnstormer64 · February 2006

I'm pretty sure he was being facetious.

grandaddy · February 2006

There is an excellent tool on the Edmunds main page to figure this out. Down near the bottom of the page. You can check any vehicle and compare them all. I compared the Lexus RX400H and the RX330. The hybrid cost a lot more to own. Interesting.

pat · February 2006

True Cost to Own^SM (TCO)

ricwhite · February 2006

According to Edmund's predictions of depreciation, the Hyundai Azera loses 32% of its value in the first year alone ($9262) which is WAY more than any other vehicle in its class. Because of that, the cost per mile of ownership over 5 years at $0.64 is much higher than an Avalon ($0.56) or a Ford 500 ($0.54) or Chevy Impala ($0.58). I guess if you want an Azera, the best bet is to wait a year or two after it loses half of its value and grab one for 13 grand or so.

wolverinejoe80 · February 2006

edmunds is completely wrong. azera isn't XG. you will noticebly see korean cars will hold their value. not as good as toyota's and camry's, but much better than domestic cars.

also, edmunds probably got those number assuming azera limited is 29.5k(current msrp). but hyundai will sell it at 27k in summer.

abfisch · February 2006

ricwhite:

You are probably right statiscally. However, with the exception of once, I have never had a car for less than 10 years or 100K. My last Honda Civic was sold at 236K, everything worked and I got a reasonable price. My 02 Avalon has 78K and I have no plans on selling it or getting rid of it, until I hit above 250 or 300K. Too some of us frugal folks, especially who pay for it ourselves and not from another business, it is all about missing the 4 year intervals of buying new cars. The more intervals ya miss, the mo money you have for retirment. Toyota's reputation would be attractive to some who might want to keep cars for this length of time.

Although, if I do Total this car, that Azera model is much more attractive.

abfisch

captain2 · February 2006

think you are probably right only because I think Hyundai has improved quality to a point that it is superior to what 'Detroit' is foisting on the American public - but keep in mind that the Azera (just like the Avalon last year at this time) is a totally new car and will be subject to some teething problems (again, just like the Avalon has been) - so it is too early to tell if the Azera will be good enough to reverse that 'Korean' car perception that does exist - and hold value as you suggest.
Hyundai, however, is not yet Toyota (or Honda or Nissan)in terms of quality and fit/finish. Avalon pricing has eased just a bit (last year at this time you were paying very close to sticker) and will likely become even more of a 'bargain' with the new V6 Camry out soon. For those of you considering the Azera - hope that Hyundai can keep its prices up - as this would be an indication that depreciation problem may be minimized.

toddbinfla · February 2006

I had an opportunity to drive an 06 Sonata v6 as a rental from florida to connecticut. Here are some impressions and hopefully they will carry over to the Azera. First I thought the seats were VERY comfortable and I have a bad back from an auto accident a few years ago. Second, the layout of the interior is logical and easy to get familiar with. Third the 6 had more than enough torque for any situation we encountered and I had a hard time keeping the speed under 80. It was quiet, and averaged 26 miles to a gallon for 1300 miles of highspeed highway driving (a good testament to its horsepower and drivetrain. The HVAC controls were excellent and the stereo functioned well and sounded good enough for a non audiophile.

All in all this car was as good as any on the road, it already had 16k on the clock and not an on intended noise was heard.

I sold hyundais in the mid 80's when the best thing that could be said about them was that we had a car for every payment, right down to 112 a month. Now, anyone who thinks that any (japanese too) brand is significantly better than the 06 hyundai's is holding on to bias or has buried their head in the sand.

Try one out (hertz has them to rent) then post a response, I am interested to hear what you think.

toddbinfla · February 2006

It is difficult to use KBB or NADA when determining the reamining value for a vehicle. While KBB is better overall at determining a price close to what a dealer will likely buy your car for (and a trade in is a purchase by the dealer), NADA is far out of that ball park. You also have to prognosticate that 4 years from now there will be a ready supply of people who want a 50 - 70k miles anything that is out of warranty and a trade in. What is the stigma here? Do any of you go to a dealer and even with a Car Fax report feel completely confidant in buying a used car off a dealers lot? I sold cars and I wouldn't even if I was the one who took in the trade.

As far as arguing residual, that is based on financial companies trying to use the past to determine the future and influence car buyers decisions today. Take for example the Honda Civic, a car with a very good reputation. Not many people will dispute that statement. Now when you are driving over the next few days look for them, what will you see? 18 to 25 year olds driving around with lowered suspensions, modified engines and exhusts, modified interiors and some exterior colors or modifications that defy explanantion. (A rear wing? Can someone with an aerospace engineering or automotive engineering degree explain to me how a 5 foot rear wing helps a car at urban driving speeds?

Would you buy this car? Based on residual value, as the arguement has been going most of you would run right out and do so. I would not.

I am 38 and I appreciate a larger more comfortable car now than when I was 10 years younger, but if I were in the market for a car, a 3 or 4 year old anything would not be my car of choice.

toddbinfla · February 2006

Just ran a quick tally of all passenger cars from 06 and 05 model years for defects on the NTSB site. When you say Hyundai is not on par with the Japanese Brands take a quick look at this. (Note these are totals of all passenger cars effected by a recall. I did not take the time to differenciate between major and minor issues. I did not have time to include chevy or buick.)

The list is from Worst to Best:

Ford 1,145,055 passenger cars.

Chrysler 985,678 passenger cars (a 14% improvement)

Toyota 302,203 passenger cars (74% on ford, 70% on Chrysler)

Honda 299,931 passenger cars (74% on ford, 70% on Chrysler, 1% on toyota)

Hyundai 271,789 passenger cars (77% on ford, 73% on chrysler, 11% on toyota, 10% on honda)

VW 116,734 You get the point, although VW sold the fewest vehicle of all of these manufacturers.

Check out he recalls, while Avalon's were VERY minor, and the 500's was significantly more dangerous, when discussing build quality, it is the media who will not review the facts and continues to distort the overall superiority of Japanese branded automobiles. The raw numbers do not support this claim.

To 05 Sonata and XG350 were very good cars, neither had a recall, the 06 sonata has no current recalls (yes its still early), the elantra is the culprit for hyundai. But this board is not about the Elantra.

Japanese brands cannot hide behind the claim that they make cars that are significantly better than everyone else any longer. Better than american brands, yes. Better than Korea, not any more.

Korea is now the Japan of the 80's and Japan is fast becoming the detroit of the 80's (without the bad build quality overall). In 10 years China will be breathing down the necks of Korea and Japan.

But I am getting off point a little. You cannot predict the future in regards to potential value of a car, if you could, I would par up with you in Vegas and we could make some huge money, Buy the car that works for you today. If today, the Avalon is worth the price for you, buy it. If you want to save some money today, but the Azera. Non of us knows what will happen in 3 to 5 years anyway (we could be driving only hybrids or green fuel alternatives in 5 years) and that would mean that all the supposed residual value in the world will not help you. Besides in 5 years with increasingly dwindling world oil reserves, it is very likely that larger cars will be an excess no one will be able to afford to run. We may all be in Smart cars or xA's or something similiar getting our 80 miles to the gallon in little commuter rides. :surprise:

snakeweasel · February 2006

Would you buy this car?

A few years ago I was in the market for a new car and was looking at what Honda had. My wife was interested in an SUV and the salesman took me out back to see a CR-V that they had for sale real cheap. I looked at the thing and almost died laughing. Yes it was completely riced out. Body modifications, interior modifications, lighting effect, special paint job, even had a wing. :confuse:

The salesman told me that they got it from another dealer in a swap and didn't know what they were getting. This guy started off with offering to me for $5 or $6K off of sticker. I basically told the man that they would have to pay me to take it off their hands.

snakeweasel · February 2006

The list is from Worst to Best:

This could be a little misleading since we don't know the sevarety of the recalls. I would think that a manufacturer with 250,000 recalls for minor things (say the glove compartment pops open when you hit a big bump) is better than a manufacturer that has 50,000 recalls because of something serious (say engine fires).

Or what about the odds of the recalled item failing? say that the car is recalled for engine stalling, which is better 100,000 recalls when only 1 in 25 cars has the issue or 75,000 recalls where every other car has the issue?

My favorite is when my dodge was recalled in the 80's. The reason? Dodge forgot to stamp the little horn icon on the steering wheel.

toddbinfla · February 2006

LOL!!!!

That the point in a perfect sense. I know I'll get flamed for what I previously wrote because, lets be honest, no one is going to buy an Avalon, Camry, 500 etc and modify the c##p out of them. Although I would not be suprised to see a few rolling on 24's

The point is, any modifcation to a car will effect the car in the long run. Small tires artificially increase registered speed and engine effort, which in turn wears an engine out quicker, and depending on set up can effect the odometer as well, large tire do the opposite, lowering the odometer perceived milage by a small margin. Over 5 years this could be a large amount of unknown miles. Larger wheels and tires are also often heavier than stock, so while the engine may be lower in rpm for a given speed, increasing speed is a little harder on the engine due to increased overall weight.

Sure the larger percentage of drivers out there are unlikely to modify a car other than change tire type (snow, all season, brand) but will likely retain the basic size pxxx/rxx etc. But how do you know? I took a very good looking 6 year old chevy pickup in on trade on a durango once. I delivered the durango to the borrower at thier home (anything for a sale), on the way back to the dealer a seal let go and by the time I got back it was smoking like a cheech and chong movie. The truck was phycally beautiful, but the buyer screwed us. (Thats why dealers don't really trust buyers, and you can see it when you walk in, they have to try to sell or wholesale the c**p car you drove in on that you think is worth NADA retail

'Yes sir I know you want me to discount my new with 3 miles Intrepid by $5,000 becuse you think thats the mark up, and I know you want $5,000 for your 7 year old altima with 125,000 miles, faded paint, old tires and spotty service record, but I don't think my sales manager would do that today.' Those of you who have ever sold a car no that happens more often then not. Those of you who buy know it to.

My mother in laws 1999 Buick Century has only 30,000 miles on it. Everything works as new. It has leather interior and rides pretty well. She looked into trading on a Lacross, she was offered $3,000 for her car :confuse:

Why? Because thats what KBB said it was worth, and the dealer knew he was stealing a car from an old lady and would turn around and mark it up to $7995 and make some huge money. Fortunately she walked out. Residual value is only good for taxes and accountants who do them. Buy the best value you can get for your money today and leave it at that.

toddbinfla · February 2006

Exactly true, the 06 Toyota recall for the Avalon is because an information sticker is listing the wrong information regardin tire inflation. According to the lawyer inspired language of the NTSB this could result in improper inflation of tires which could lead to failure and a potential accident.

I was not trying to make a severity claim, (the 500 was recalled for mounts on the fuel tank, much more important than a sticker), rather the media almost never reports recalls of Japanese brand automobiles and trucks while it 'seems' that every recall of an american or european car or truck does get some print.

The most laughable are the avoidance maneuver test conducted by the 'INSURANCE' institute for highway safety. (note this is a testing lab funded by parties who are very interested in what vehicles are purchased, and by whom, you notice the news reports always speak about cost of repair rather than safety, like those 5 mph rear bumber tests on SUV's, yeah they take damage but not injury to passengers. The damage is a negative to the insurance company not the driver, thats why they rate poorly.)

These avoidance tests, you know the outriggers on suv's, are supposed to illustrate the inherent instability of an SUV. Duh! An SUV his a shorter, narrower wheelbase with a higher center of gravity, suspension designed to soak up potential off road conditions, and 2 thirty foot poles further raising the center of gravity! :P

Of course they are not handling like cars! They were not designed to be. I owned an 87 full sized Jimmy with 32's and an 8" lift. It did not drive between the cones just right over them with out hitting any

But I never thought I could take a corner fast in it, and in heavy traffic I was always much more alert than most people around me (I did not want to hit some kid in a civic with a 3 ton truck.)

The media is amored with all vehicles Japanese or German, not to say that the last 15 to 20 years have not given them good reason to do so. If you look at Road and Track (which I like to read), they did a comparison of 30 thousandish convertables, and commented on the Chrysler using outdated SLK suspension systems, which a year earlier in the SLK were a fine example of suspension in a small convertable. What happened in a year? Sure the new SLK uses a more advanced set up but did the old setup get worse or was it the fact that the car said Chrysler on it?
Whose to say, but when you really take the time to read the words used in a review you can see the bias.

Example: Import: delivers the same level of refinement we have come to expect from XXXXX

Domestic: we were suprised by the quality of the plastic materials used, they feel softer and less cheap than before

captain2 · February 2006

did the same - had an LX Sonata for about a week when out of town. Was really impressed with the new engine, smooth and quiet, good power and a great improvement on the old 'crap' 170hp V6. Interior fit and finish, however, thought was still well behind the Japanese - and where do you think Hyundai came up with that 'wood' - Jupiter? But, overall much improved - guess we'll have to see how well it holds up - the fact remains that the Camry, Accord, and Altima all hold enviable positions in terms of long term reliability and resale values. The Azera - haven't driven one yet - but understand it is a 'soft' car much more like a Buick. And you may be right - the Japanese offerings may not be significantly better - time will tell - but expect Hyundai's established 'cheap car' reputation to continue to hurt the car's value.

toddbinfla · February 2006

www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recall

check out this web site for recall notices.

Just looking at 06 / 05 and started 04 before giving up and posting the link I found 588,677 toyota vehicles with safety recalls. These were Camry, Avalon, Corolla, Tundra and Tacoma as well as the Lexus ES330.

While the recalls are not nearly as rampant as detroit iron, my point with industry bias, and its effect on the public in general, ignores the fact that there are ever any problems with Toyota (I name them only because I looked them up, check out the listing for the 2003 Odyssey minivan and the transmission problems they had which were also felt by the CL, TL, Accord and Pilot.) These manufacturers enjoy favorable press like Saddam did from his information minister. Its just that when you look in the backround you see the M1 tank sitting on the corner. Tercels and Corolla's were inexpensive tranportation using inexpensive materials to save money and hold costs down. Were they cheap? Hyundai Accent and the last year or two of the Excel were inexpensive transportation using inexpensive materials to save money and hold costs down. Were is the difference? A sub 10k car will be a cheap car. Hyundai does not build Excel's anymore, nor do they build scoop's. I had an excel that except for replacing a clutch at 75,000 miles ran trouble fee for years. I had a tercel whose motor blew up at 82,000 miles, does that mean the excel was a better car? Or does that mean that the person who owned the tercel before me did not take good care of it? Whose to say, but the excel ran to almost 150,000 miles before I sold it. Yes it was cheap and plastic and made in 1987 but back then it was a $6,500 car. Once upon a time Toyota made cheap cars that rotted away rapidly, do they still have that reputation? No. Stop living in the past with all things not Toyota or Honda (early cvcc) or Nissan (B210 anyone) and realize that cars made today are within a percentage point or two of their competitors and judge them fairly and honestly on that standpoint.

Reading these posts reminds me of the death of the Camaro and Firebird. Two cars able to outperform almost anything else on the street, a great value for thier performance, able to be bought as convertables, and except for not being named Civic fantastic cars. Put a stock Si versus a Stock SS and guess which one wins. But hey public perception fueled by the media and entertainment industry said the Civic is the it car. Now to get the same performance out of a Civic you pay 20k for the car and 10k for the engine and another 4 to 8k for the suspension and other modifications and once your done you have a car as fast as a 6 year old camaro or firebird you can find for 8 to 12k. Where o where is the sense?

The insurance industry kills the pontiac fiero, only to not do the same thing to the mr2. Why?

Hyundai builds a car that almost all of the automotive press says is equal to the Avalon, and gives the ES a run for its money in feature content and all anybody has to say is, but hyundais past quality is a joke. Are we afraid to admit that just maybe the vaunted Japanese car companies can be matched by someone?

captain2 · February 2006

Had the opportunity to do some business with a multiple dealership owner a few years back - had existing Toyota and Nissan dealerships and now was adding a Ford place in the same 'village'. Dealers make money only because of the service and used car depts. New car sales are acutally net money losers if you properly portion overhead, construction and utility costs, and commissions. This gentlemen was excited to finally get the Ford logo - wonder why?
So use the KBB/NADA if you wish, but they certainly mean nothing to that dealer taking it in on trade - he is looking to turn it over at profit margins that would make a jewelry saleman blush and probably for more gross dollars profit than he could make selling the car new! Residual value estimates do, however, provide the basis for lease cost, another number that can be manipulated to satisfy those folks that 'buy' by payment size.

snakeweasel · February 2006

The insurance industry kills the pontiac fiero, only to not do the same thing to the mr2. Why?

What really killed the Pontiac Fiero was that it was a piece of junk. I knew a few people that had one and not one of them had the original engine in it. One person I knew had just over 60K miles on his car, but he was on his third engine. :sick:

toddbinfla · February 2006

I was not aware of that, I had a tennis coach who had one but did not complain of any problems, it was new however. I did know a guy who had a samurai and under the hood is an information sticker that says that the engine is good for only 40,000 miles.

alan_s · February 2006

History repeats itself.
In 1968 everyone laughed at my Dad when he bought a Toyota and used derogatory terms describing it as "J#p Cr#p". It was rock solid and ran over 100,000 miles without a problem before he bought another one. After a couple of years nobody was laughing.
The point is that Hyundai is now where the Japanese were 25 or 30 years ago. They have a sound product and the people who buy the cars now will enjoy the lower-cost hidden secret until the rest of the community wakes up. In the meantime, Japanese quality has slipped and they are riding on reputation. Toyota is watching Hyundai very closely.
In a few years the Hyundai jokes will be as old as the double-barrel carburetor, and no doubt there will be future emerging competitors on it's tail.

tinydog1 · February 2006

I am sold on Hyundai quality and reliability. My friend just hit 100K miles on his 2002 Sonata LX and has had only one minor problem. I was sitting next to a new Lexus LS430 the other day and noticed most of the trim around the windows and body side moldings did not line up and thought this is the opitamy of HIGH quality????? Everything on my Azera and XG lines up perfectly. As for Toyota, my sister has had major trans problems with both her Tundra and 4 Runner.

toddbinfla · February 2006

Killing some time last night I wanted to give the Avalon owners a fair shake. The posts on here from those owners convey a high regard for the quality of the car they drive. And admittedly the current recall for the Avalon is for a really insignificant item.

So I checked out the complaints section: It appears there is an issue with the computer control of the transmission. There are multiple complaints about the same issue on the NTSB site, some pleading with the NTSB to get involved. Dealers are at a loss on how to repair the issue because mechanically the transmissions are fine. They appear to have shift problems, lack of gear change, sudden gear change, hunting for gears, delayed engagement of gears pulling away from a stop. Fortunately no one has been injured, and I am sure that Toyota will do everything they can to repair these cars as quickly as possible.

On another note. Regarding owner surveys. People like to tout the survey, especially the CR survey's as a true indicator of car quality. But are they really. In my experience I have found that (I'll be politically correct) people who are chronologically challanged, tend to not respond to the suveys they receive. Also, and again this is just in my experience not a blanket claim for all, do not want to be negative about things. My mother in law is not afraid to speak her mind. She had a Buick Le Sabre that was about 3 years old and had only 16,000 miles. The AC went out. Did she complain? No, when I asked her about it, her attitude was: 'well it wasn't their fault, and they said it would be fixed under warranty'. Would she report this on a survey, no. She was happy with the service manager, they treated her well, and she bought another Buick.

Most of her friends are the same way. I doubt the median age of an Avalon buyer is much different from the median age of a Le Sabre buyer. These individuals are less likely to have a negative comment, unless an incident happened in the very recent past (a week or so). If the problem was fixed, it is no longer an issue.

Does CR report how many people respond and what their ages are? Do any of the magazines or survey companies? I would be curious to see how the percentages stacked up.

Even this site has a lot of people complaining about the Avalon shift issue.

Don't ever forget that perception is reality, people still love Bill Clinton even though he is a filanderer, adulterer and a liar. But hey, he smiled and played the sax, so he must be ok.

Toyota, Honda, Acura, Lexus, Nissan, and of course Mitsubishi have mechanical issues, fit and finish issues and recalls, just like everyone else. But hey, thier from Japan so it must be ok.

alpha01 · February 2006

is the new 6A. Unfortunately, I feel that current purchasees will be out of luck. That said, I didn't notice a downshift issue in the Avalon to be more present than in our 05 Legacy, also with electronic throttle control, which I believe causes the problem in Toyota's 5A.

Regarding the 6A that tha Avalon should be receiving for the 07 MY... Toyota's press release (of the New Camry) states:

"Harnessing this engine's output is an all-new six-speed automatic transmission that uses 21 percent fewer parts than the conventional five-speed automatic transmission it replaces. This new transmission, which can be shifted sequentially, relies upon a newly developed gear train that uses a Ravigneaux-type compound planetary gear for reduced size, weight and friction.

This new transmission also uses a quick-response, low-friction clutch pack for enhanced fuel economy; an ultra-flat, low-inertia torque converter for high transmission efficiency; a set of high-response, low-slip clutch packs and new electronic and hydraulic control systems that incorporate an intelligent shift control that learns driver's driving style and selects gears based on that style.

As a result of this development, transmission kickdown response was cut to 0.5 seconds, more than twice as fast as the response of the transmission this new one replaces."

So, apparently the 6A will offer kickdowns twice as fast as the (in my opinion) dumpy, but not unsafe, 5A.

~alpha

zodiac2004 · February 2006

I was sitting next to a new Lexus LS430 the other day and noticed most of the trim around the windows and body side moldings did not line up and thought this is the opitamy of HIGH quality?????

Did you know the amount of crash damage the Lexus had sustained?

Either that, or you are overdue for a visit to your opthalmologist.

It's one thing to compare an Azera to an Avalon, and quite another to an LS 430.

captain2 · February 2006

Don't think that too many people would argue that as we age we tend to become less tolerant - not more as you suggest. Furthermore, the older you are the more financially able you will generally be - making that person perhaps even a little more 'disagreeable' - money does have a way of making a person used to getting his/her own way. Think you supposition is all wrong, except that it logical that the older we get the less likely we might be to fill out silly surveys - except possibly for those that are actually retired and may have little else to do.
An industry bias for Japanese cars! Don't you think that CR or any other automotive publication/surveyor in this country would just love to be able to say 'go out and buy the 500 - it is a wonderful car backed by Ford and its history of building superior cars is second to none..." Of course, they would - just that they can't! Say that about Toyota and Honda certainly, Nissan is close, and indeed Hyundai may be paying a high price for past problems - we just won't know if this will change for awhile.

snakeweasel · February 2006

Don't you think that CR or any other automotive publication/surveyor in this country would just love to be able to say 'go out and buy the 500 - it is a wonderful car backed by Ford and its history of building superior cars is second to none..." Of course, they would - just that they can't!

They can't or they won't? I take any car magazines reviews with a grain of salt and I don't trust CR to tell me the time. Right, wrong or indifferent there is a certain bias out there that will not go away any time soon.

tinydog1 · February 2006

Wow, the person who just bought the Lexus must have just been suckered into buying a brand new wrecked vehicle. It still had the paper tags on. The only thing I was comparing is fit and finish. For 60k+ I personally would expect the entire vehicle to be flawless.

champion3 · February 2006

I have an o6 avalon 0 to 60 in 6.3sec 99mph quarter mile.I drove a 500 before buying the avalon no power and no room for my right leg flat against the console and wood grain on the dash looks like a prison tray. Have owned 5 fords and their quality has gone from good to none. Thats why their in finacial trouble. Only way the 500 will out run the avalon is if it is pushing it.

barnstormer64 · February 2006

Don't you think that CR or any other automotive publication/surveyor in this country would just love to be able to say 'go out and buy the 500 - it is a wonderful car backed by Ford and its history of building superior cars is second to none

Nope. In fact, I think they intentionally go out of their way to trash good American vehicles.

barnstormer64 · February 2006

Only way the 500 will out run the avalon is if it is pushing it.

Funny you should say that, as I just outran three today. LOL

My point being, few USE all that power, even after they buy it.

joe97 · February 2006

Drove all four listed. Below is how I would rank based on my experience:

1. (tied) Hyundai Azera / Toyota Avalon (slight edge to Azera)

3. Chevy Impala
4. Ford 500 (needs the 3.5 to be more competitive)

barnstormer64 · February 2006

Ford 500 (needs the 3.5 to be more competitive)

Most of the other cars need better DRIVERS to be more competitive.

captain2 · February 2006

In fact, I think they intentionally go out of their way to trash good American vehicles.
WHY - what's the motivation - there is still a very large portion of auto buyers in this country that bleed red, white & blue. If Ford or GM had come up with Azera, the 'press' would be awash with all kinds of glowing reviews and awards. Speaking for myself, I would love to see a competitive quality American made/designed car (that classification blurring because that's exactly what the Avalon is, for example - while many of the 'Detroit' products are made in Canada/Mexico etc.. Chrysler has enjoyed quite a honeymoon with the 300 with the automotive press esp. the 'C' - until recently it turns out to have some reliability/quality issues - same for the LaCrosse - and the 500 - decent in most respects until you open the hood. But, I guess, what you folks are telling me is that this is all a figment of somebody's imagination and bias?Statistics continue to indicate that the 'Japanese' (keep in mind that the Av was designed in Calif. and is built in Ky., the Accord is built in Tenn. (I think), most of Nissans in Ohio etc. etc) do a better job at manufacturing an automobile and there is some evidence that even the Koreans are improving to a point that should shame the Big 3. Maybe we should all just ignore this, and spend our $30k on inferior products?

barnstormer64 · February 2006

Chrysler has enjoyed quite a honeymoon with the 300 with the automotive press esp. the 'C'

It's a "sports sedan" . . and anything with that much horsepower is going to have a honeymoon with the auto magazines.

I've driven one . . and it has NOTHING on the 500 . . . other than the Hemi, of course.

barnstormer64 · February 2006

But, I guess, what you folks are telling me is that this is all a figment of somebody's imagination and bias?

Yep, it sure is. My brothers have driven Hondas and Toyotas for years . . yet we all have the same kinds of "issues" with repairs and repair frequencies and costs. Which is to say, not a lot, but no perfect cars, either.

captain2 · February 2006

never said the Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans of the world were 'perfect' - but certainly less 'imperfect'. The 300C is only slightly quicker than the Avalon at the penalty of several MPG, the 3.5 V6 actually a better engine choice(thank you MB) that is far superior to that 1970 vintage mixmaster Ford engine. Despite the RWD the 300 (with any engine) is not a 'sports sedan' and neither are the Avalons, Azeras, TLs, 500s, Maximas, Impalas, LaCrosses/Lucernes etc.. Ford made a big mistake with the 500 - what could have been, isn't - simply because of the drivetrain. If little ole (historically) technologically challenged Hyundai can make the improvements they did with the Sonata and Azera engines - why can't Detroit??? Put the Hyundai 3.8 in the 500 - then, you would have something.

slider7 · February 2006

Yeah! What ever happened to the good ol' days when wealthy American corporations bought out their competitors and then shuttered them permanently!

toddbinfla · February 2006

Missed the fun this weekend, I could get to a computer to save my life. I will grant you that there has been an edge in reliability that has been fundamentally Japanese for a good long time. However, based on what I read, the automotive press has a short memory when it comes to Japanese cars.

Case in point, I just looked up the Mitsubishi Galant ES review on this very website. For those of you living under a rock, Mitsubishi covered up large scale problems and recalls with their automobiles a few years back. There is not a single mention of past mechanical issues in the review, not a mention of hidden previous warranty repair issues either. As far as edmunds is concerned the new Galant is much better than the previous version, but still not in the Camry/Accord league.

Now lets switch over the Chyrsler Town and Country (by the way I did not search for reviews to compare, I picked Mitsubishi because of their history, and picked a Chrysler at random), here is verbatim one part of the opening few paragraphs "These minivans have been Chrysler's biggest success story of the last two decades and have always been at or near the top on the segment's sales charts. But these corporate darlings have had their share of problems, as various mechanical woes have tarnished their reliability reputation. Although quality has improved greatly in the last five years, the current generation has had its share of repair issues, and an extended warranty would not be a bad idea if you're planning to keep the van beyond its basic 3-year/36,000-mile warranty period.
"

Chyrsler sells more minivans than any other manufacturer, I worked at a Dodge dealer in Florida, we sold tonnes of them. Very few came back for problems, in fact the only one that came back for me was one which had the power sliding door on the drivers side. The motor shorted and had to be replaced. That was it. Out of about 150 vans that I sold over my career. Does Chrysler build the perfect car? No. But, this example is exactly what my point is, When a Japanese manufacturer builds a product with problems (the transmissions of 2003 for Honda), the press seems to trip over themselves to make excuses or hype the fact that this is an aberation in a long line of wonderful vehicles and may mention the problem with the next years review, to point out what an improvement they are. American manufacturers get no honeymoon, and (sorry ladies by my wife does this to me), like a spouse that will never forget what you did 5 years ago, the press will beat to death mistakes made by American manufactures.

To comment on slider7's comment from above, most american companies have less reserve capital available to simply, buy and dash. GM has huge capital expenditures paying retired workers. Ford, with weakening sales and a bland product line, must cut huge amounts of jobs and factories.

When will Ford realize that they should shutter Mercury? When will GM either make brand specific models or shutter another brand. Chrysler at least had the courage to close down plymouth, which other than the prowler sold rebadged Dodge vehicles with less features.

The real success for the Japanese manufacturers has been clear product lines. Toyota / Lexus, other than early in the history of Lexus when the ES 250 was a thinly disguised Camry, there has been a clearly defined line were Toyota badged cars end and Lexus cars begin. Has been, because Toyota is falling into the American trap of styling an entire product line with to many of the same elements so you do not differentiate between a new Camry or Solara and an ES 300 from the front. Honda has Acura, Nissan and Infinity. You see the point. Over at GM? They should stick with Caddilac as a luxury brand, Pontiac as the performance end (no minivan, suv, or sedan), GMC should build the Trucks, and chevy should build the entry level and family cars and suv's. That does leave Buick in a lurch, but other than having a midlevel product, say 30,000 to 40,000 they do not offer much that cannot be made up in other vehicles.

Hyundai is doing it smart, build one brand, buy into the second (Kia), take your original brand upscale and leave the newcomer to champion the value flag.

One other thing that these boards are forgetting in the vs. argument is that if the azera is just behind the Avalon, and the Sonata is just behind the Camry/Accord, isn't it still a better deal and logical purchase to get a 10 year warranty on the drivetrain rather than a 3/36 or even a 5/60?

Those of you saying that you keep cars a long time, I would think you would appreciate the added protection.

captain2 · February 2006

And as I mentioned earlier there is still a large segment of the buying public that would prefer to buy that Big 3 product if the actual vehicle values now and down the road were the same.
But, you don't address what I think is the real issue here - if the American mfgd. products are being unfairly treated by the media - WHY - there is no logical reason they should - actually, the reverse should be true given where the advertising dollars can come from. And, the consumer magazines that don't get money that way - guess they must be accepting deposits into Swiss bank accounts from the Japanese. I'd contend to you that C&D in that comparison test (Optima, 500, 300, Maxima, Avalon) would have loved to be able to rate either of two US products ahead of the Avalon - it would have been to the mags. benefit to do that.
Your comments regarding the probelms created by a lack of product line differentiation are spot on except that it has been well illustrated that multiple branding what is ostensibly the same product is THE way to profit nirvana. Witness what Nissan has done with the FM platform, and compare, if you will, the financial condition they are in now vs. where they were 10 years ago. Johnson & Johnson been doing this for years - with toothpaste! It works.
Actually think that Detroit's problems are more a result of a continuing failure to respond to ever changing auto market - wasn't it really those abortions called Vegas and Pintos that allowed the Japanese to establish themselves in the US back in the 60's and 70's - and the fact, that for some reason, the US manufacturers have never been able to build a good smaller displacement engine!

Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

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