Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
As for the price factor, you are comparing a loaded Azera to a middle-to-upper trim of Lucerne V8; in my opinion, the CXS trim, however, would be comparbably equipped.
Question for the Host: Is it still possible to add the Lucerne and the Chrysler 300 to the discussion ?
Other than the consumer reviews her on Edmunds, do the reviewers mention it?
You were wise to move to another vehicle that year, but unlike Chrysler vans, Honda got a clear slate. Past reliability is always brought up with any other cars outside of Japan (except of course to reinforce the bulletproof reliability)
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 04V551000 regarding the honda accord. This affected 257000 accords. The airbag during installation could have been ripped. Dealers were to install a protective piece of equiptment to avoid this problem. This affected 2004 and 2005 accords.
Never once in an accord review was this mentioned. Also on the consumer boards one of the responders stated that there was a recall for the transmission of the 2005's, can not confirm that though, because you NEVER hear about the bad stuff with Japan.
The consumer organizations, however, a different story - they will gather data on almost everything we buy, don't have an 'obligation' to affluent advertisers, and then simply compare repair histories. Although these organizations have their own priorities (eg safety over performance) how do you argue with what is consumer supplied informaion. And yes, that Honda tranny of 2003 is about the only noted problem area for those cars in the CR ratings, for example. As it should be. And yes, CR did do a story in the 06 Buying guide issue about how the quality gaps were narrowing between the US/Korean brands and the Japanese.
As, I think it is.
All in all, doesn't sound very 'anti-American' to me?
averigejoe, "Hyundai Azera vs. Volkswagen Passat vs. Buick LaCrosse" #, 19 Nov 2005 11:28 pm
You may be surprised at the prices and equipment levels of the three. Take a look.
They're long because automakers know the engine and tranny are some of the most reliable parts on the car. A/C commpressors, starter motors, alternators, computers and other electrical parts, etc are the parts that typically go bad after the 3/36 warranty expires.
So, those warranties don't do much good but instill a false sense of security with people who don't realize that their warranty may not be of much use after the bumper-to-bumper term is over - especially for Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans whose engines/trannys easily go 150-200K miles between overhauls. My last Maxima (1996 SE) had 160K miles when I sold it and the engine/tranny ran like new.
I read somewhere that one can upgrade the Azera's 10yr powertrain warranty to a 10yr bumper to bumper warranty for a fee. Now that's something to consider! Will such an upgrade make the Azera better/smother/more refined/etc than the Avalon? No, but it will most certainly make it cheaper to operate. I won't even compare reliability of American cars to the Toyota's long term reliability record.
Anyone really interested in comparing the Av to Azera should read this months car mags - one of them (Motor Trend I think?) has a comparison test between the Av Touring, Azera and Volkswagen Passat. Great article.
That Hyundai has improved from making cruddy unrelaible cars to a well built fairly reliable cars in the last 5-10 years speaks volumes about Hyundai's understanding how important quality and reliability is to our market, and how inept American automakers are at comprehending the same.
Germany needs a lesson in reliability too. Chryslers haven't improved in reliabilty with the infusion of Mercedes juice - they just drive better and have better build quality, but reliability of Daimler Chrysler is still sorely lacking.
If Hyundai continues on its path for another 5-10 years while improving quality and reliability to match the best Japanese automakers, they may earn my dollar in the future. But not yet.
Regards to all,
Deanie
Detroit won't put modern engines into their cars because they're so hung up on the short-term savings of using cheaper-to-produce pushrod engines. As such, they're way behind the learning curve on building potent and desirable overhead cam engines. This is exemplified by V6 Avalons (and soon 07 V6 Camrys) being virtually as quick as a V8 300C, but with insanely higher fuel economy.
What America needs to do is put a freeze on all spending on any car development that does not focus on improving build quality, real reliability, and implementing OHC engines. They should forget spending on styling, updates and even pull back on advertising a bit. This will hurt sales and market share for a year or three (but its happening to the big 3 anyway each year), but they'll emerge with product more likely to be bought by more discerning customers of Japanese branded cars.
I'd love to buy American branded cars, but they just don't measure up. Imagine a 300 C, Ford, etc that had the long-term reliability/build quality of Honda/Toyota - that's a car I'd buy. Until then, America will sell cars based on discounts, superficial styling, and marketing - not true quality and reliability. And if that day does not come soon, the Big three will be comprised of Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
Regards,
Deanie.
Overhead cam motors are not necessarily better. The U.S. makes the best pushrod v8 motors in the world, and they have been doing exactly that for a long, long time.
But heavy, high horsepower and torque cars usually do burn more gas.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
If you only need 2 seats, the Corvette, with a pushrod v8, is the best widely available high performance car in the world, and a real bargain too!
The American manufacturers will have to change this displacement as a 'cure' attitude and substitute some real technology if they are to remain competitive. In this $3.00/gallon world combined with cars that now can outperform about anything made in any era, don't think they have a choice. The consumer maybe just a little too smart to be spending their $ on something like a 300C with some rather serious reliability issues, and maybe 16 mpg vs. those same $ spent on things like Avalons/07 Camry, TLs/Accords, G35/Maximas/Altimas etc., all of which (V6s) will come very close to running with the 300C, save maybe 10 mpg, and have a much higher build quality to boot!
For either engine, you are wrong that they were disasters from day 1. The 3.0 Vulcan, when first introduced in the original Taurus, (1987 model year was it?) was a very state of the art engine. One of the first with multipoint fuel injection and an electronic ignition system on a mass market car. The Japanese at that time were still largely using distributors and super complex carburetors. Yes the 3.0 Vulcan is an obsolete engine now, but is wasn't when introduced.
Same goes for the 3.0 Duratech. When introduced in 1996 it was pretty much state of the art.
With current enhancements of variable valve timing(on Fusion versions) and 6 speed transmission on Fusion or Five Hundred or the CVT transmission option on Five Hundred, the 3.0 Duratech drive train is not really behind the curve compared to much of the competion, expecially when you are talking AFFORDABLE cars.
Neither engine has been a "disaster", and in fact have been quite reliable.
Much of the competition's higher horsepower ratings come at very high rpm's which are rarely actually used in any real world driving situations.
It seems to me every car company now is adapting the BMW's controversial high deck styling (aka. Bangel 's butt after BMW's chief designer Chris Bangel). I am seeing it on the Azera also. In addition, the old and droopy tail light of the older Honda Accord is now on the Azera.
Other than that, Areza is very nice looking and well done vehicle inside out. I have no doubt Hyundai will sell quite a few of Azeras in the months to come. It will give people reasonable alternative to Avalon (still goofy styling), Ford 500 (too conservative) or Buick Lucern
jt
The Duratech 3.0L was an amazing engine when it was introduced in the '96 Taurus . . . and it's still a pretty darned good engine today.
Hopefully the new 3.5L will be as reliable and trouble-free.
You guys are either missing (or ignoring) my point, however. Just like deanie, I would have no problem buying any 'Detroit' product - if all other factors were equal. But, they are not - and the drivetrains are the major reason why. The American manufacturers, for some reason, have never been able to build a smaller displacement performance engine and I contend that this is the primary reason that GM and Ford are in such finanicial trouble today. The US car market was handed over to the Japanese (and Europeans) way back in the 70's when all the Big 3 could do had names like Pinto, Vega, and Omni and were well behind (in all respects) of other names like Civic/Accord, 510, Corolla/Corona etc. Now the problem is even worse - that perennial cash cow of the American mfgrs, the trucks and SUVs are beibg discounted to the point of absurdity and GM, Ford, and Chrysler have very little presence in the car market anymore. In the meanwhile, here comes little ole upstart Hyundai/Kia - who has figured out how to build an engine finally - and can offer a Sonata that blows the doors off a Fusion, or an Azera that outbuicks Buick. Now there's a company that the Japanese needs to keep an eye on...
Recently saw the 500SE advertised at $18k (about $2500.00 under invoice) and $30k F-150s advertised at 10 grand off.
This can not be good for Ford or any other manufacturer that is forced to do things like this to move inventory. Don't imagine that Hyundai will be needing to do anything approaching this to sell Sonatas/Azeras, and Toyota has certainly been able to get almost whatever it wants for the Avalon. As deanie noted, GM and Ford are backed into a corner that the consumer expects high discounts on their products - to the point that quality has to suffer and technology lags - all because there is no money for them to do any different!
Just one of the reasons I don't mind buying Fords. If one is stupid enough to make a decision (vs. a Toyota/etc) by using MSRP, then one deserves what he gets.
The smart buyer knows what each dealer will typically sell at (true "sales price"), and compare those values. The even smarter buyer will know to wait for a truly good deal like one of those specials. I typically don't do the latter, because it rarely ends up being a car with all the options and color that I want.
Well, there you go again.
Per good old Edmunds own tests:
Fusion V-6 Automatic: 0-60 in 8.0 seconds
1/4 mile in 15.8 @89.16 mph
600 foot slalom 61.4 mph
60-0 in 124.03 feet
Hyundai Sonata V-6 Automatic: 0-60 in 8.2 seconds
1/4 mile in 15.7 @89.6 mph
600 foot slalom 55.7 mph
60-0 in 128 feet
Only in 1/4 mile did Hyundai win any of these tests. The others Fusion won, and in the handling category, 600 foot slalom, Fusion won fairly handily.
Neither one would blow the doors off the other, except maybe in the twisties where Fusion had a definite edge.
Facts please, rather than generalizations based on cars of the 70's. By the way, those Japanese cars of the 70's quickly turned into rustbuckets on wheels in any climate where they used salt in the winter, and they weren't very reliable either and they were expensive to repair. The only advantage they had back then was they were inexpensive to buy new.
It's not . . but then neither is the Avalon. :P
Some people prefer to buy their diamonds at a retail jewelwer, too, instead of going to a discount jeweler and paying 50% of the "50% off sales price" of the retail jeweler.
money that Ford could take and turn around and improve their products and their powertrains
There's already the new 3.5L coming out, and the new 6-speed tranny, as well as improvements in the Duratech 3.0L in some vehicles, as well.
I am very suspect of the numbers in the Sonata v. Camry. v. Accord test-those were the slowest numbers that I've seen all three of those models post.
If you're going to compare vehicles, its best if you can find a comparison test under which the vehicles were likely tested in the same types of weather conditions, and best, using the same test driver.
With that said, in the December issues of Car and Driver and MT, the Sonata, in a test against the Fusion, beat it, unequivocally. Again, in the March issue of Consumer Reports, the Sonata V6 beats the Fusion V6 soundly in all acceleration tests.
~alpha
The Sonata/Azera engines not quite up to the Toyota 2GR, the Nissan VQ, or the Honda V6s, but pretty darn close. Ford and GM would do well to buy their engines from Hyundai.
Purchase decisions based on discounts as opposed to value will certainly keep you in 'Detroit' cars for some time to come!
I don't buy on discounts, I buy on price/value.
I don't see the extra value in any Camry/Accord/Avalon/etc over my Five Hundred.
I can't help it if the yuppies of the world are blind.
And, oh yeah, I make more than most of them anyway, so it's not an issue of lack of money.
~alpha
just an observation ...
Well, considering I live and work around lots of them, and I see what they drive, I can say they're fairly popular. Granted, some insist on the gold-plated Lexus, instead.
Suffice it to say that I haven't had any complaints when others ride in my vehicles, or even drive them. But they'd still rather spend more money for the Acuras/Toyotas/etc. of the world.
Not that there's anything wrong with that decision, nor is there anything wrong with their vehicles. But I certainly don't see anything worth paying the extra money for.
Now, if I were trading in my vehicle every couple of years, then I suppose I could see the extra value in those vehicles. But then, I don't see the value in trading in a vehicle that frequently. I tend to drive them for at least 8 years before I even consider getting rid of them.
I've got other things I'd prefer to waste my money on (like 50 grand worth of digital SLRs and lenses). And FWIW, the lenses hold value better than any Lexus, but those digital bodies depreciate faster than anything Detroit makes. :P
~alpha
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Heavy discounts on the front end of a car purchase certainly effect resale value down the road, so if that Avalon is costing a few thousand more it should also be able to hold a higher resale at least equal to that difference, otherwise it would make less sense from a strictly financial point of view. Some 'Blue Book' research will support this. With the popularity of leases, think there are very few that keep cars 8 years these days. But, if you do, point taken - that resale difference will shrink to almost nothing - except that you are betting that out-of-warranty repair costs don't also make up some of that initial savings.
So far that hasn't been an issue with the Fords I've owned, compared to the Hondas and Toyotas my brothers have owned.
You'll have to forgive me for using the term "yuppie" (never liked it anyway). What I meant was "well paid indiviuals".
Perhaps on the coast you'll see more of those types buying Mercedes or BMW . . . down South, I see a lot more of them buying Toyotas or Lexus or Acura (and a few Hondas).
Probably so. But then they aren't very fiscally smart.
Then again, if I were *really* fiscally smart, I'd buy two-year old domestics coming off of leases to take advantage of the depreciation, and THEN keep the car for 8 years.
Somehow, I just can't bring myself to do that. Probably because I'm convinced that much of the appearance of domestics having more issues than foreign cars is the fact that those who buy the domestics (to save money) are also so cheap that they don't maintain the vehicles as well. I'd rather have a vehicle I've owned from day one that I know was well-taken care of.
just in case, that you thought my anti-American bias is some sort of disease!
Let's see, how much have I spent for non-routine or non- wear item maintenance and repairs on my 2000 Taurus SES Duratech (that has 24 valves and dual overhead cams by the way) at 55K miles and nearly 6 years? Exactly $0.00 to date.
you sure don't drive much - down here in Texas where we jokingly measure distance in 'sixpacks' - I am good for 30-40k/year!
They still let your drink while driving in Texas?
actually, I was certainly referring to sixpacks of Coke. But, until about 5 years ago or so, it was 'legal' to be drinking something else while driving. Since we have an inordinate number of pickup trucks down here, you used to be able to estimate vehicle mileage by the accumulation of aluminum in the truck beds!
And when your vehicle is ready, it is not clean, there is some fluids spilled under the hood, there are grease marks and those filthy paper floormats left behind, etc. Forget about a follow up phone call to make sure you are satisfied with your experience. If the buying, service experience was up to par with some of the import brands, I am sure more folks would buy American.
My father-in law had a Nissan Maxima. He would make an appointment and there was someone waiting for him when he got there, and when the car was returned, it was detailed. Then they followed up a few days later with a phone call.
He later bought a Dodge product. Nasty experience from start to finish, not to mention a poor quality vehicle.
Not a hater, just a realist who works hard for my money.
One time I took my sisters toyota to the dealership for service and pretty much ignored and then given the run around.
So I could say that Japanese automakers need to treat their customers better. But I wont seeing that its a dealer issue not an automaker issue.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I've always had great service at the Ford dealerships I've been to.
Contrast that with the poor service I had when I was shopping on the local Toyota lot. At least the Dodge dealer was nice!
Some one mentioned the lights on the dashboard cannot
be dimmed at night. Can't believe that on a car in that
price range.
If it's the Five Hundred, you can definitely dim the lights on the dashboard.