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Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

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Comments

  • toddbinflatoddbinfla Member Posts: 27
    As I stated, I do agree that as a track record of reliability, the Japanese autos are better than their American couterparts. What my point is, there is a bias in the media. How else can you explain how this site would give the 2003 Honda Odyssey a rating of 8.7 and say it is a perenial favorite when the transmissions were going dead in less time than fruit flies. Its not even commented on in the review! And this is for an established problem. Read the consumer reviews. There was a recall for the transmission for the Odyssey, Accord, TL and CL and MDX. All used the same defective transmission. Do we read about how you should look out for these models? No, they are still recommend higher than American models who didn't leave their drivers on the side of the road. What I would like to see is even handed writing by reviewers. If you are going to mention past problems with one model do it with all of them. I posted earlier a list of recalls, and Toyota and Honda were not 0. Hyundai actually had fewer than both of them. But we say Hyundai reliability has no track record as if 80's excels and elantra's have any bearing on the cars made today.
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    I had a chance to check out the Azera. Nice car, but not for me. The front seats are not very comfortable and have very limited adjustability even with power. The passenger seat has no tilt and i wouldn't want to spend much time there. The 500 does need the 3.5, but overall it's potentially a more liveable car. The Azera was selling for over $30,000. With my GM card, i could be in a Buick Lucerne CXL v-8 with comfortable dual power seats for 30,000.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Had a chance to drive the Lucerne the other day - very good car from GM, although the V6 lacked the power it needed, with respect to this class/segment at least. The V8, however, compensated; with output figures about the same as the V6s offered from such said above - Avalon, Azera and others...

    As for the price factor, you are comparing a loaded Azera to a middle-to-upper trim of Lucerne V8; in my opinion, the CXS trim, however, would be comparbably equipped.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Yep the Lucerne looks nice but unfortunately even the V8 Lucerne is slower than the Avalon and the Azera and the transmission is still the antiquated 4 speed. But I think the Lucerne is a better competitor to the Avalon than the Chevy Impala.

    Question for the Host: Is it still possible to add the Lucerne and the Chrysler 300 to the discussion ?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    honda's transmission recalls and replacements had to do with a cooling probelm that caused the failures - I thought it was well publicized and was one of the reasons that I ended up in an Avalon instead of a TL.
  • toddbinflatoddbinfla Member Posts: 27
    I think you made the right decision. My point is that if review the reviews, and this comes back to hyundai vs america vs japan, then you do not hear mention of past problems with cars from japan. Each model and year gets a clean sheet of paper. Each and every review I have seen about hyundai has somewhere in it an nod to the old, bad car days of hyundai. Its the same for american cars and vans. The only vehicles that seem to be bullet proof for america are trucks, but since i am not in the market for one, my experience is admittedly lacking.

    Other than the consumer reviews her on Edmunds, do the reviewers mention it?

    You were wise to move to another vehicle that year, but unlike Chrysler vans, Honda got a clear slate. Past reliability is always brought up with any other cars outside of Japan (except of course to reinforce the bulletproof reliability)

    NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 04V551000 regarding the honda accord. This affected 257000 accords. The airbag during installation could have been ripped. Dealers were to install a protective piece of equiptment to avoid this problem. This affected 2004 and 2005 accords.

    Never once in an accord review was this mentioned. Also on the consumer boards one of the responders stated that there was a recall for the transmission of the 2005's, can not confirm that though, because you NEVER hear about the bad stuff with Japan.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you must be reading different magazines than I do - the enthusiast mags. very rarely, if ever, talk about repair histories or problems with any brand unless, of course, it effected the car's performance during the time they had the car. They are simply evaluating a car's comfort, styling, and most of all, the car's dynamic capabilites - acceleration, handling, braking etc. Reference the most recent issue of MT testing the Avalon, Azera and the new Passat 3.6. Yes the Azera finished 3rd, but because to them, anyway, it is just a little too soft - more like a Buick - but did not say anything about Hyundai's past history, only that the car was a genuine leap in the right direction - which it certainly is. The Passat - didn't mention a thing about any of the reliability issues that VW and the Germans have been having - only that the tranny hunts for gears and the ride a little harsh. So they select the Avalon (in Touring trim) as a best compromise. My point is: MT and the other car mags will not generally trash a car around things like recalls and premature transmission failures - it would cost them too many advertising dollars.
    The consumer organizations, however, a different story - they will gather data on almost everything we buy, don't have an 'obligation' to affluent advertisers, and then simply compare repair histories. Although these organizations have their own priorities (eg safety over performance) how do you argue with what is consumer supplied informaion. And yes, that Honda tranny of 2003 is about the only noted problem area for those cars in the CR ratings, for example. As it should be. And yes, CR did do a story in the 06 Buying guide issue about how the quality gaps were narrowing between the US/Korean brands and the Japanese.
    As, I think it is.
    All in all, doesn't sound very 'anti-American' to me?
  • averigejoeaverigejoe Member Posts: 559
    There is another discussion which details the Buick Lucerne and LaCrosse in comparison with the Azera.

    averigejoe, "Hyundai Azera vs. Volkswagen Passat vs. Buick LaCrosse" #, 19 Nov 2005 11:28 pm

    You may be surprised at the prices and equipment levels of the three. Take a look.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    Azera Ultimate Pearl White for $26,941 on Ebay. You get another $1,000 off as a Hyundai owner= $25,941. About $8,000 off from a Avalon price. Type "Azera" on Ebay search. You will find a page from Great Lake Hyundai in OH.
  • sjhoopersjhooper Member Posts: 2
    Why do so many Americans care about some magazine editor's subjective opinion. The objective results of car performance are posted by every automobile manufacturer. Everything else is someone's OPINION. The definitions of fit and finish, road noise, seat comfort, drivability, etc. are completely different for most people. Do yourself a favor - drive the cars yourself before you buy and get the one the YOU want. Forget about opinions because yours is the only one that matters.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Thanks averigjoe for the link. :)
  • deaniedeanie Member Posts: 172
    Regarding those long warranties:
    They're long because automakers know the engine and tranny are some of the most reliable parts on the car. A/C commpressors, starter motors, alternators, computers and other electrical parts, etc are the parts that typically go bad after the 3/36 warranty expires.

    So, those warranties don't do much good but instill a false sense of security with people who don't realize that their warranty may not be of much use after the bumper-to-bumper term is over - especially for Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans whose engines/trannys easily go 150-200K miles between overhauls. My last Maxima (1996 SE) had 160K miles when I sold it and the engine/tranny ran like new.

    I read somewhere that one can upgrade the Azera's 10yr powertrain warranty to a 10yr bumper to bumper warranty for a fee. Now that's something to consider! Will such an upgrade make the Azera better/smother/more refined/etc than the Avalon? No, but it will most certainly make it cheaper to operate. I won't even compare reliability of American cars to the Toyota's long term reliability record.

    Anyone really interested in comparing the Av to Azera should read this months car mags - one of them (Motor Trend I think?) has a comparison test between the Av Touring, Azera and Volkswagen Passat. Great article.

    That Hyundai has improved from making cruddy unrelaible cars to a well built fairly reliable cars in the last 5-10 years speaks volumes about Hyundai's understanding how important quality and reliability is to our market, and how inept American automakers are at comprehending the same.

    Germany needs a lesson in reliability too. Chryslers haven't improved in reliabilty with the infusion of Mercedes juice - they just drive better and have better build quality, but reliability of Daimler Chrysler is still sorely lacking.

    If Hyundai continues on its path for another 5-10 years while improving quality and reliability to match the best Japanese automakers, they may earn my dollar in the future. But not yet.
    Regards to all,
    Deanie
  • deaniedeanie Member Posts: 172
    Hi:
    Detroit won't put modern engines into their cars because they're so hung up on the short-term savings of using cheaper-to-produce pushrod engines. As such, they're way behind the learning curve on building potent and desirable overhead cam engines. This is exemplified by V6 Avalons (and soon 07 V6 Camrys) being virtually as quick as a V8 300C, but with insanely higher fuel economy.

    What America needs to do is put a freeze on all spending on any car development that does not focus on improving build quality, real reliability, and implementing OHC engines. They should forget spending on styling, updates and even pull back on advertising a bit. This will hurt sales and market share for a year or three (but its happening to the big 3 anyway each year), but they'll emerge with product more likely to be bought by more discerning customers of Japanese branded cars.

    I'd love to buy American branded cars, but they just don't measure up. Imagine a 300 C, Ford, etc that had the long-term reliability/build quality of Honda/Toyota - that's a car I'd buy. Until then, America will sell cars based on discounts, superficial styling, and marketing - not true quality and reliability. And if that day does not come soon, the Big three will be comprised of Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
    Regards,
    Deanie.
  • averigejoeaverigejoe Member Posts: 559
    Check the weights of the Avalon, Camry and v8 Chrysler 300. Also compare low end torque of the motors and overall gear ratios.
    Overhead cam motors are not necessarily better. The U.S. makes the best pushrod v8 motors in the world, and they have been doing exactly that for a long, long time.
    But heavy, high horsepower and torque cars usually do burn more gas.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    If you only need 2 seats, the Corvette, with a pushrod v8, is the best widely available high performance car in the world, and a real bargain too!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    averigejoe - have to agree with deanie on this one - while the US mfgrs. do indeed know how to make pushrod engines (largely because that is all they have done since the 50's) the penalty for this ancient technology is efficiency. The GM 3.8 V6 around since the mid 50's started life as a 'Buick 231' and has not changed substantially since - and it has been a good engine in terms of durability and even in terms of economy when combined with some long gearing (circa '95 LeSabre, for example) - but, at 200 hp, 250 ft/lbs. of torque not close to what an Avalon can do power wise although almost as good with fuel. The Ford 3.0, on the other hand, a disaster from day one, and Chrysler's track record (pre MB) just as bad.
    The American manufacturers will have to change this displacement as a 'cure' attitude and substitute some real technology if they are to remain competitive. In this $3.00/gallon world combined with cars that now can outperform about anything made in any era, don't think they have a choice. The consumer maybe just a little too smart to be spending their $ on something like a 300C with some rather serious reliability issues, and maybe 16 mpg vs. those same $ spent on things like Avalons/07 Camry, TLs/Accords, G35/Maximas/Altimas etc., all of which (V6s) will come very close to running with the 300C, save maybe 10 mpg, and have a much higher build quality to boot!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    If you are referring to the Ford "3.0" you could be referring either to the 3.0 Vulcan pushrod or the 3.0 Duratech.

    For either engine, you are wrong that they were disasters from day 1. The 3.0 Vulcan, when first introduced in the original Taurus, (1987 model year was it?) was a very state of the art engine. One of the first with multipoint fuel injection and an electronic ignition system on a mass market car. The Japanese at that time were still largely using distributors and super complex carburetors. Yes the 3.0 Vulcan is an obsolete engine now, but is wasn't when introduced.

    Same goes for the 3.0 Duratech. When introduced in 1996 it was pretty much state of the art.

    With current enhancements of variable valve timing(on Fusion versions) and 6 speed transmission on Fusion or Five Hundred or the CVT transmission option on Five Hundred, the 3.0 Duratech drive train is not really behind the curve compared to much of the competion, expecially when you are talking AFFORDABLE cars.

    Neither engine has been a "disaster", and in fact have been quite reliable.

    Much of the competition's higher horsepower ratings come at very high rpm's which are rarely actually used in any real world driving situations.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually both - both engines pushrod, low output/efficiency, and rough as a cob at any rpm over 4000. And one of the reasons that Ford products have had consistently low ratings. And the reason, that an otherwise intelligently designed car (thank you Volvo), the 500, will never be more than a Hertz rental or fleet car. Read something very recently that Ford is finally discontinuing the engine in favor of a 3.5 at about 250 horse with some of those dreaded overhead cams etc. that may make it competitive to those more powerful and economical engines available from others. If they don't go out of business first....
  • jntjnt Member Posts: 316
    My observation on the backend styling of the Azera:

    It seems to me every car company now is adapting the BMW's controversial high deck styling (aka. Bangel 's butt after BMW's chief designer Chris Bangel). I am seeing it on the Azera also. In addition, the old and droopy tail light of the older Honda Accord is now on the Azera.

    Other than that, Areza is very nice looking and well done vehicle inside out. I have no doubt Hyundai will sell quite a few of Azeras in the months to come. It will give people reasonable alternative to Avalon (still goofy styling), Ford 500 (too conservative) or Buick Lucern

    jt
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Now I know you don't know what you are talking about. The 3.0 Duratech is a 24 valve dual overhead cam V-6. It is not a pushrod engine, and as adapted in the Fusion and Mazda 6, it is also a variable valve timing engine. Ford is absolutely not discontinuing the 3.0 Duratech. You are confusing it with the 3.0 Vulcan pushrod V-6, which is basically being discontinued.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Amazing, isn't it? Maybe it's only the hopelessly CONFUSED who buy those foreign jobs and diss the American cars. ;)

    The Duratech 3.0L was an amazing engine when it was introduced in the '96 Taurus . . . and it's still a pretty darned good engine today.

    Hopefully the new 3.5L will be as reliable and trouble-free.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Yes, and also check out where Captain2 has also been posting besides this board. Had to take his Avalon back 6 times for an oil leak...........
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    True - my Av an early 05 and certainly a violation of that age old axiom - don't buy a truly new model car in its first year of manufacture. Even applies to Toyotas, but as I noted in my posts and referencing the eventual TSB a relatively minor design problem involving a drain hose. Since been fixed, of course, and while I found my dealer about as diligent as could be reasonably expected, I am disappointed with the general level of training on what was a totally new engine that is rightfully becoming the basis for many Toyota and Lexus products. And yes, my Avalon, one of those rare vehicles, that I actually look forward to driving every day - absolutely love the power, the quiet, the size, and most of all the economy.
    You guys are either missing (or ignoring) my point, however. Just like deanie, I would have no problem buying any 'Detroit' product - if all other factors were equal. But, they are not - and the drivetrains are the major reason why. The American manufacturers, for some reason, have never been able to build a smaller displacement performance engine and I contend that this is the primary reason that GM and Ford are in such finanicial trouble today. The US car market was handed over to the Japanese (and Europeans) way back in the 70's when all the Big 3 could do had names like Pinto, Vega, and Omni and were well behind (in all respects) of other names like Civic/Accord, 510, Corolla/Corona etc. Now the problem is even worse - that perennial cash cow of the American mfgrs, the trucks and SUVs are beibg discounted to the point of absurdity and GM, Ford, and Chrysler have very little presence in the car market anymore. In the meanwhile, here comes little ole upstart Hyundai/Kia - who has figured out how to build an engine finally - and can offer a Sonata that blows the doors off a Fusion, or an Azera that outbuicks Buick. Now there's a company that the Japanese needs to keep an eye on...
    Recently saw the 500SE advertised at $18k (about $2500.00 under invoice) and $30k F-150s advertised at 10 grand off.
    This can not be good for Ford or any other manufacturer that is forced to do things like this to move inventory. Don't imagine that Hyundai will be needing to do anything approaching this to sell Sonatas/Azeras, and Toyota has certainly been able to get almost whatever it wants for the Avalon. As deanie noted, GM and Ford are backed into a corner that the consumer expects high discounts on their products - to the point that quality has to suffer and technology lags - all because there is no money for them to do any different!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Recently saw the 500SE advertised at $18k (about $2500.00 under invoice) and $30k F-150s advertised at 10 grand off.

    Just one of the reasons I don't mind buying Fords. If one is stupid enough to make a decision (vs. a Toyota/etc) by using MSRP, then one deserves what he gets.

    The smart buyer knows what each dealer will typically sell at (true "sales price"), and compare those values. The even smarter buyer will know to wait for a truly good deal like one of those specials. I typically don't do the latter, because it rarely ends up being a car with all the options and color that I want.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    "In the meanwhile, here comes little ole upstart Hyundai/Kia - who has figured out how to build an engine finally - and can offer a Sonata that blows the doors off a Fusion"

    Well, there you go again.

    Per good old Edmunds own tests:
    Fusion V-6 Automatic: 0-60 in 8.0 seconds
    1/4 mile in 15.8 @89.16 mph
    600 foot slalom 61.4 mph
    60-0 in 124.03 feet

    Hyundai Sonata V-6 Automatic: 0-60 in 8.2 seconds
    1/4 mile in 15.7 @89.6 mph
    600 foot slalom 55.7 mph
    60-0 in 128 feet

    Only in 1/4 mile did Hyundai win any of these tests. The others Fusion won, and in the handling category, 600 foot slalom, Fusion won fairly handily.

    Neither one would blow the doors off the other, except maybe in the twisties where Fusion had a definite edge.

    Facts please, rather than generalizations based on cars of the 70's. By the way, those Japanese cars of the 70's quickly turned into rustbuckets on wheels in any climate where they used salt in the winter, and they weren't very reliable either and they were expensive to repair. The only advantage they had back then was they were inexpensive to buy new.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    MRSP certainly means nothing buying anything - but actual selling prices are certainly determined by the consumer's perception of value. The Avalon XL will sell for something about $24k and may not cost a whole lot more to produce than that SE selling at $18k. Evidently, there are a lot of folks out there who perceive it to be worth the extra $6k. The point is that Toyota, in this case, making a bunch of money, Ford not - and it will not be a good thing for this country when (or if) the major automakers go belly up or we taxpayers have to subsidize them. I would much prefer to see that the consumer thought the 500 to be WORTH 3 or 4 thousand more, money that Ford could take and turn around and improve their products and their powertrains. As it is right now - don't see that happening - Ford and GM simply can't afford it!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I would much prefer to see that the consumer thought the 500 to be WORTH 3 or 4 thousand more

    It's not . . but then neither is the Avalon. :P

    Some people prefer to buy their diamonds at a retail jewelwer, too, instead of going to a discount jeweler and paying 50% of the "50% off sales price" of the retail jeweler.

    money that Ford could take and turn around and improve their products and their powertrains

    There's already the new 3.5L coming out, and the new 6-speed tranny, as well as improvements in the Duratech 3.0L in some vehicles, as well.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I wouldnt trust edmunds.com times worth a lick. In EVERY OTHER PUBLICATION out there, from Motor Trend, to Car and Driver, to Consumer Reports, to Consumer Guide, the Fusion V6 is spanked by the Sonata V6.

    I am very suspect of the numbers in the Sonata v. Camry. v. Accord test-those were the slowest numbers that I've seen all three of those models post.

    If you're going to compare vehicles, its best if you can find a comparison test under which the vehicles were likely tested in the same types of weather conditions, and best, using the same test driver.

    With that said, in the December issues of Car and Driver and MT, the Sonata, in a test against the Fusion, beat it, unequivocally. Again, in the March issue of Consumer Reports, the Sonata V6 beats the Fusion V6 soundly in all acceleration tests.

    ~alpha
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The Sonata runs in the low 7's, the Fusion gets closer to 8 - but it is not just that - the Sonata's engine smoother, more eager to rev etc. - all-in-all more refined. And it is a fun car to drive!
    The Sonata/Azera engines not quite up to the Toyota 2GR, the Nissan VQ, or the Honda V6s, but pretty darn close. Ford and GM would do well to buy their engines from Hyundai.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Toyota, or any other manufacturer of a high demand vehicle, could care less what you, me, or any individual, thinks its car is worth. They have more than enough folks lined up willing to pay the $24k - they know what it is worth because that is what they are getting. When supply catches up with or exceeds demand, then they care and likely will reduce prices. Fully expect that Avalon pricing will ease somewhat - something called the 07 Camry.
    Purchase decisions based on discounts as opposed to value will certainly keep you in 'Detroit' cars for some time to come!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Purchase decisions based on discounts as opposed to value

    I don't buy on discounts, I buy on price/value.

    I don't see the extra value in any Camry/Accord/Avalon/etc over my Five Hundred.

    I can't help it if the yuppies of the world are blind.

    And, oh yeah, I make more than most of them anyway, so it's not an issue of lack of money.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Hahaha yea, Toyota Avalons and Camrys are popular with yuppies. Oh, please do tell us another one- Im feeling ill today and you made me laugh.

    ~alpha
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    and glad to hear you've been entertained - but let me just observe that I've never really seen an instance where sarcasm makes the point to the recipient that the person employing it wants to make. Instead, it just seems to create defensiveness and then no one hears anyone from that point forward.

    just an observation ... :blush:
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Hahaha yea, Toyota Avalons and Camrys are popular with yuppies. Oh, please do tell us another one

    Well, considering I live and work around lots of them, and I see what they drive, I can say they're fairly popular. Granted, some insist on the gold-plated Lexus, instead.

    Suffice it to say that I haven't had any complaints when others ride in my vehicles, or even drive them. But they'd still rather spend more money for the Acuras/Toyotas/etc. of the world.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that decision, nor is there anything wrong with their vehicles. But I certainly don't see anything worth paying the extra money for.

    Now, if I were trading in my vehicle every couple of years, then I suppose I could see the extra value in those vehicles. But then, I don't see the value in trading in a vehicle that frequently. I tend to drive them for at least 8 years before I even consider getting rid of them.

    I've got other things I'd prefer to waste my money on (like 50 grand worth of digital SLRs and lenses). And FWIW, the lenses hold value better than any Lexus, but those digital bodies depreciate faster than anything Detroit makes. :P
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Oh, pat, it was all in good fun! I've just never considered the Avalon or Camry to be yuppie cars, and a look of the buyer demographics of these vehicles seems to corroborate that.

    ~alpha
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Yes they do attract yuppies, but on the low end of the scale (or yuppie wannabes).

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the age demographic for the Avalon (64) has historically been one of the highest in the industry. It has gone down a few years recently with the intro of the '05 - so yes there are some 'yuppies' as you call them understanding that the new Avalon is no longer an 'old folks car'. Don't know the statistics for the 500 but I would bet that the age demographic every bit as high as the Avalon. 'Yuppies' don't generally buy big full size sedans (SUVs and 'sports' sedans, perhaps) with Toyota or Ford (or anybody's) nameplates. Don't see a whole lot of younger folks out buying the Azera either - it being possibly the best Buick that GM never built!
    Heavy discounts on the front end of a car purchase certainly effect resale value down the road, so if that Avalon is costing a few thousand more it should also be able to hold a higher resale at least equal to that difference, otherwise it would make less sense from a strictly financial point of view. Some 'Blue Book' research will support this. With the popularity of leases, think there are very few that keep cars 8 years these days. But, if you do, point taken - that resale difference will shrink to almost nothing - except that you are betting that out-of-warranty repair costs don't also make up some of that initial savings.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    except that you are betting that out-of-warranty repair costs don't also make up some of that initial savings.

    So far that hasn't been an issue with the Fords I've owned, compared to the Hondas and Toyotas my brothers have owned.

    You'll have to forgive me for using the term "yuppie" (never liked it anyway). What I meant was "well paid indiviuals".

    Perhaps on the coast you'll see more of those types buying Mercedes or BMW . . . down South, I see a lot more of them buying Toyotas or Lexus or Acura (and a few Hondas).
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    With the popularity of leases, think there are very few that keep cars 8 years these days.

    Probably so. But then they aren't very fiscally smart. ;)

    Then again, if I were *really* fiscally smart, I'd buy two-year old domestics coming off of leases to take advantage of the depreciation, and THEN keep the car for 8 years.

    Somehow, I just can't bring myself to do that. Probably because I'm convinced that much of the appearance of domestics having more issues than foreign cars is the fact that those who buy the domestics (to save money) are also so cheap that they don't maintain the vehicles as well. I'd rather have a vehicle I've owned from day one that I know was well-taken care of.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and FWIW - my previous several personal drivers - [2] Crown Vics, {1] Caprice, [1] Aerostar, and [3] Suburbans - and all reasonably reliable (except the Aerostar), comfortable, and ran them all past 100k!
    just in case, that you thought my anti-American bias is some sort of disease!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Well, maybe there is hope your disease can be recovered from! Maybe you should join FCBA (Foreign Car Buyers Anonymous) :)

    Let's see, how much have I spent for non-routine or non- wear item maintenance and repairs on my 2000 Taurus SES Duratech (that has 24 valves and dual overhead cams by the way) at 55K miles and nearly 6 years? Exactly $0.00 to date.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually I am the area chapter founder - my wife's and kids cars - all Nissans - and also never in the shop!
    you sure don't drive much - down here in Texas where we jokingly measure distance in 'sixpacks' - I am good for 30-40k/year!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Yeh, but let me assure you a Wisconsin winter and tons of road salt and the resulting potholes will put a lot more age on a car than a lot of highway miles in Texas!

    They still let your drink while driving in Texas?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    age and driving conditions certainly as much as an influence on car wear and tear as miles.
    actually, I was certainly referring to sixpacks of Coke. But, until about 5 years ago or so, it was 'legal' to be drinking something else while driving. Since we have an inordinate number of pickup trucks down here, you used to be able to estimate vehicle mileage by the accumulation of aluminum in the truck beds!
  • chilliwackchilliwack Member Posts: 189
    Domestic automakers need to treat their customers better. We own a 1987 Ford Windstar van. The buying experience was horrific, and each trip to the service department meant standing in line behind a bunch of pissed off people who weren't getting service. There is usually one or two heated arguments going on at the front of the line.

    And when your vehicle is ready, it is not clean, there is some fluids spilled under the hood, there are grease marks and those filthy paper floormats left behind, etc. Forget about a follow up phone call to make sure you are satisfied with your experience. If the buying, service experience was up to par with some of the import brands, I am sure more folks would buy American.

    My father-in law had a Nissan Maxima. He would make an appointment and there was someone waiting for him when he got there, and when the car was returned, it was detailed. Then they followed up a few days later with a phone call.
    He later bought a Dodge product. Nasty experience from start to finish, not to mention a poor quality vehicle.

    Not a hater, just a realist who works hard for my money.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    That seems to be an issue with the individual dealers not the manufacturer. I owned Dodges when I took it into the dealer for work there was no wait and the service manager eagerly and completely explained everything to me while we were at my car so he could show me what he was talking about.

    One time I took my sisters toyota to the dealership for service and pretty much ignored and then given the run around.

    So I could say that Japanese automakers need to treat their customers better. But I wont seeing that its a dealer issue not an automaker issue.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Exactly. It's a local dealer problem, not a manufacturer problem.

    I've always had great service at the Ford dealerships I've been to.

    Contrast that with the poor service I had when I was shopping on the local Toyota lot. At least the Dodge dealer was nice!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    those comment cards and surveys actually very important to the dealers. Had the experience of doing some work for a dealer that had Ford, Nissan and Toyota all at the same location. Was telling me all about how new car sales were a losing proposition and how he made a fortune in used cars and service. New car apportionments are based not only on dealer volume but also rather heavily, as it turns out, with customer satisfaction. Which is why, I guess that salesman is all over you to fill out a favorable comment card (he gets a few bucks if you do) or that the service dept. is calling you after the fact to make sure you are happy. Pretty much all the mfgrs. work this way, very self-defeating for any dealer/service dept. to be anything but nice.
  • aspen4aspen4 Member Posts: 22
    Any discussions on gas mileage.Heard it's not very good.
    Some one mentioned the lights on the dashboard cannot
    be dimmed at night. Can't believe that on a car in that
    price range.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Which vehicle are you talking about?

    If it's the Five Hundred, you can definitely dim the lights on the dashboard.
  • chilliwackchilliwack Member Posts: 189
    The Azera dash lights can be dimmed. Just not all the way to an off position. In regards to my previous post regarding customer treatment, point taken. I was ignored twice while car shopping at an unnamed Acura dealer. Told the manager he lost a sale and left.
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