Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

bhmr59 · June 2006

I was in Phoenix in mid-March and asked Enterprise for an Azera preferably, or a Sonata. The people in the office (20ish) hadn't even heard of an Azera and said they didn't have any Sonata's.

With all the talk of Hyundai fleet sales, I couldn't get one when I asked.

The base Azera SE is loaded with features, although not as many as the Limited/Ulti. What additional features are you looking for in a $25K MSRP car?

joe97 · June 2006

Azera has very little units sold to fleet, AFAIK.

As for the Sonata, even subtracting fleet figures, which are not released on a monthly basis, its estimated figures (retail customers only) still meet 150K units/year goal. Obviously at the end of the day, all sales are counted, and 200K+ units this year is well within reach.

The purpose of fleets for the Sonata, as stated by Hyundai, is brand recongition more than anything.

Back to Azera:

Azera takes home "Best Luxurious Car For A Nonluxury Price", as well as AutoPacific Vehicle Satisfaction Award for a large/luxury car and overall in all car categories.

http://www.hyundainews.com/hyundainews/corporate87.htm
http://www.hyundainews.com/hyundainews/corporate85.htm

sundevils · June 2006

You can also display the outside temperature (in lieu of the compass heading) on the rearview mirror.

alpha01 · June 2006

Fair enough, but I've had 5 different rental Sonatas from Hertz in Milwaukee and 1 Azera since January. I'm not sure what that indicates, but I know the Sonata was running at a very high fleet sales percentage in the first quarter of this year- 30% through March.

Those awards are commendable, FWIW. Hyundai certainly has come a long way, has it not??!

~alpha

joe97 · June 2006

Agreed

I was working the math the other day. For the latest May sales figure, Hyundai moved ~17K units (of Sonata) in the US - taking 30% into account, that would mean a little over 5K units went into fleet, and the remainng 12K units were retail for the month.

So on average, 140-150K should move through retail this year - on par with the original target of 150K units/yr (but this number is estimated for combined sales) - adding another 55-65K through fleet (estimate), we are looking at over 200K units sold for the Sonata for FY2006 (not bad considering all of the circumanstances; for one, it exceeds the target by a wide margin).

I recall AutoNews said Hyundai officials wanted to get as many "butts" in the Sonata as possible

which essentially translates into "the more exposure, the better". Frankly, the results have been great, as far as I can tell - more and more consumers are now favorable toward the Sonata (and Hyundai, for that matter); and with only a minority group of people still put off Hyundai competely.

fsmmcsi · June 2006

I finally drove an Azera limited with the Ultimate package today. It is amazing how much nicer the interior looks in reality than in photographs. Anyone who has any interest in cars and large sedans and who has not actually gone to see and drive one is really missing something.

First, the interior makes the interiors of the Five Hundred/Montego looks even worse than they already seem. I once drove a Chrysler 300 and then a Montego, and the Montego seemed especially cheap in comparison. The Hyundai interior is also significantly nicer than the GM cars on the ancient W-body platform (Impala, Grand Prix, and Century) and the Lucerne.

Second, the smoothness, quietness, and power of the drivetrain are exceptional and quite a surprise for a car at the price shown on the window sticker. At least on this first drive, I was unable to provoke any torque steer or other bad charateristics of front wheel drive.

Third, the car does lack a few things:

1) The leather on the seats in not perforated, so will be too hot most of the time in southern California. Besides perforations, cooled seats would be a feature fully in line with the character and equipment levels of this car.

2) A navigation system and Bluetooth are also quite glaring omissions, although it seems reasonable to expect that they will be offered on the 2007 model. Does anyone here know when the 2007 model will be out?

3) The lumbar support in the seat is too low for me (6' 1"), and only adjusts in and out, not up and down as does the system in the fancy version of the Buick Lucerne and Cadillac DTS. My wife also had the same complaint about the passenger seat (she is 5' 10").

The latest JD Power ratings for this car are also very, very impressive.

Unfortunately, the dealer I visited in Irvine, CA had a very pushy salesman who kept pushing a lease, even after being told that I pay cash for cars and drive 35,000 to 40,000 miles per year. He also did not know the options and equipment on the cars. Hyundai needs to get rid of such salespeople if they expect to suceed.

The Five Hundred and Montego do have better crash test results and offer the added safety of all wheel drive, but the Azera is still as safe or safer than all of the other cars I have ever owned, so these aspects of the Ford products do not, for me, make up for their shortcomings. The new exterior styling and new engines and transmissions on the Five Hundred and Montego will only bring them up to the performance level of the Hyundai, and perhaps not to the same level of quietness and smoothness. The Ford products do have a somewhat larger trunk, but not enough so to make a different for more than a tiny percentage of potential buyers.

metamel · July 2006

Oldbloke, How do you still like the Azera? Any gas mileage numbers to report, and are the leather seats too hot in the summer? Also, how is the dual-climate control working? I've been thining of buying one or the Avalon, just like you, doing a similar gas-cost trade off. Any info or feedback that you could provide would be helpful.

rj123456 · July 2006

Check out the Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ if you want the perforated/cooled seats.

pat · July 2006

Just fyi. the Avalon Limited has perforated/cooled seats as well.

oldbloke · July 2006

I still am quite happy with the Azera. I recently drove 475 miles almost all interstate at 70-80 mph, mainly 70, and got 27.3 mpg. Most of my driving is interstate or secondary (55 mph) roads with perhaps 10-15% "around town". I've done 1935 miles and average is 24.7 mpg based on my total fuel purchases. I haven't found the leather seats too hot in summer and also use the A/C on auto set at 73F, which both my wife and I find quite comfortable.
No troubles of any sort after 3 months and 1935 miles. I haven't tried the dual climate control. Must admit I wonder how effective this is on any vehicle because of no partition between occupants.

barnstormer64 · July 2006

The dual climate is actually quite effective (never tested it in an Azera, but in Freestyle and Five Hundred). What it mainly does it to affect the temperature of the air that's directly blowing onto the driver/passenger. This can make a HUGE difference in how cold/warm one feels, even if the air temperature in the car is the same.

chilliwack · July 2006

I live in California (Bay Area) and we recently had a wicked hot spell. I found that the leather seats did not get too hot, although I have the grey leather. Now black leather is another story. :shades:

lfagius · August 2006

I have a 2005 Mercury Montego Premier AWD, and yes, I have driven the Avalon. Several times. As a matter of fact, as a person hired to shop different car dealers in the area, I have driven the Avalon several times, as well as most of the Five Hundred & Montego's competition.

I'm glad I bought the Montego. Is Avalon faster? Yes. Who cares. For all the pissing and moaning about the Five Hundred/Montego being under-powered, the fact is that it's not only more than adequate, it feels faster than the 1996 Taurus I traded in (same Duratec DOHC V-6), and delivers 3 to 4 MPG better than my old Taurus, and this is comparing an AWD Montego to a FWD Taurus, with the same V-6. And the Montego enters the Freeway on ramps and passes just as well as the not only the '96 Taurus I traded in, but the 2004 Sable loaners car I had for three days from a local Lincoln-Mercury dealers, also equipped with the Duratec V-6.

Seating position in the Avalon, compared to the upright position in the Five Hundred/Montego, isn't appealing at all. Too low, and piss-poor visibility. Handling? Nothing great. Five Hundred/Montego's Volvo derived chassis delivers a smooth ride with very solid handling.

Trunk room? The Avalon is a joke. What trunk? I can barely get a weeks worth of groceries in the Avalon's trunk. The Five Hundred/Montego's trunk? I routinely go to Costco and Target, stopping at Meijer on the way home for the perishables. Plenty of trunk room - biggest trunk of any sedan on the market.

The seating position and room of the Five Hundred/Montego is superior, the trunk capacity of the Five Hundred/Montego is superior, the Five Hundred/Montego has AWD AND gets better gas mileage in AWD than the Avalon gets in FWD. And Consumer Reports rates the quality of the Five Hundred/Montego HIGHER than the Avalon.

So the Avalon is a bit faster? Again, I ask, who cares?

iluvmysephia1 · August 2006

have to compete with Dale Earnhardt, Jr. while driving around America's highways, biways and city streets. This nation is stocked with mindless dorks who are know-it-alls who know next to nothing about anything. Sounds like the Montego was the right choice and also a much better looking rig than the hideous looking Avalon.

nimimi · August 2006

I suppose if the 500/Montego were to be pushed up all hills and coast down the other side, they just MIGHT come close to the mileage of the Avalon (which has a much bigger engine, of course). But, if you go with the EPA numbers, the Fix Or Repair Daily products don't even come close!

barnstormer64 · August 2006

Fix Or Repair Daily?

Clearly, YOU haven't driven a Ford lately. :P

snakeweasel · August 2006

But, if you go with the EPA numbers, the Fix Or Repair Daily products don't even come close!

They don't?????

The Avalon gets 31 highway 22 city and a 25 combined rating, the 500/Montego gets 29 Highway 21 city and 24 combined per EPA figures. For all intents and purposes thats pretty much the same.

nimimi · August 2006

Hey, I like the pun! I sold my 1996 Taurus and, quite frankly, it was extremely reliable.

The mileage to which I was referring was the 19/25 MPG rating for the AWD products since the writer was raving about the AWD mileage being better than the Avalon's FWD mileage.

captain2 · August 2006

the much anticipated 3.5 V6 will first appear in a new Lincoln MK at 268 hp/258 ftlbs (the same ratings as the Avalon). Assumming the 500 gets the same engine, that engine doesn't have teething problems, and that engine sports the same sort of economy as the current 3.0 gets - then, it will be very competitive to things like Avalons and Azeras.
The design and assembly of the car are both really good, it is a 'spaceship' in comparison - as a 'Volvo' would be. Ford's mistake was bringing out the 500 without a more capable engine.

barnstormer64 · August 2006

I sold my 1996 Taurus and, quite frankly, it was extremely reliable.

I had a 1989 Taurus, a 1996 Taurus wagon, and a 2002 Taurus. All were extremely reliable.

I kept the '89 for 11 years and the '96 for 8 years.

I sold the '02 after less than 4 years, but ONLY because I was so impressed with my 2005 Freestyle that I had to get the 2005 Five Hundred when the employee pricing came out in July of that year.

I've NEVER kept a new car for that short a period of time before.

barnstormer64 · August 2006

Ford's mistake was bringing out the 500 without a more capable engine.

The 3.0 is a perfectly "capable" engine in the Five Hundred. Nothing wrong with the 3.5, I'm sure . . but unless you're going to tow something, it's essentially overkill. Not that overkill isn't nice sometimes.

However, in the current economic environment, I have to wonder if Ford wouldn't have done better to redesign the 3.0 to get even BETTER gas mileage, rather than coming out with the 3.5 . . and, yes, I do realize that the 3.5 was being designed well before the current "oil price crisis".

exalteddragon1 · August 2006

The five hundred is a better car than the avalon in all respects (did you look at the saftey issue, isn't the 500 the only car to get 5 starts without side airbags?) exept for performance.

However, this does not mean that the avalon sucks. Its a foreign car, and the domestics hurt themselves for lacking the viagra induced responses to union aggression in the face of faling share and increasing foreign penetration of our market.

Therefore many will buy the avalon, just like they used to in the 60's, 70's and 80's, just because its foreign, and that means its better. Now things are leveling off. If you like your avalon fine, its not a bad car, but unless your drag racing ford really did a great job with the 500, not in terms of style, but in terms of cost effective, and practical transportation for those who do not want SUV fuel economy but need the space.

nimimi · August 2006

From what I have been reading, Ford will soon discontinue the 500 style because (1) sales have not been good and (2) they really wanted the Fusion all along and they don't really want two Ford cars competing with each other.

barnstormer64 · August 2006

I don't believe that rumor is correct. In fact, I believe that the 500 is going to become a hybrid (or at least a hybrid option available) around 2010.

Knowing Ford's luck, this can only mean that gas will be $1.00 per gallon in 2010. :surprise:

captain2 · August 2006

a couple of things:
1) you may consider the Avalon a car with a foreign name, but it is not by any stretch a 'foreign car'. It was designed in the USA, is built in the USA from US made parts. Which is more than I can say for that MORE foreign car with an American name, the Five Hundred. Yes, Volvo did do a good job with the 'S80/500' design, and those European Haldex AWD systems, suspension compnenents etc.
2) whatever reasons that folks have for buying things like Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans is only because history has shown them to be better built - a simple basis in fact- although the gap is certainly closing.

captain2 · August 2006

what do think would've happened a couple of years ago Ford had introduced the 500 not only as the safe, well designed space box that it is - but it is now also substantially more powerful with an additional few mpgs. Multiple car of the year awards, certainly - several hundred thousand more sold, certainly - and lastly, and perhaps the most vitally a car that is good enough and in-demand enough that Ford could command higher prices for it. Kind of what happened with Chrysler and the 300s.
This is why Ford made the mistake in putting the 3.0 DT in the 500 - not because it is a terrible engine but because the car is good enough that it needed a GREAT engine. Maybe the new 3.5 will be better, but it may be too little too late for the 500.

barnstormer64 · August 2006

Well, I compared the Magnum to the Freestyle, and the 300 to the 500, and the clear winner was the Ford product.

Sure, slamming the accelerator on the Hemi's was fun . . but hardly worth the cost and poorer design of the vehicles.

Of course, I smile when people buy the Hemi's . . after all, I'm in the oil business. :surprise:

donl1 · August 2006

I traded a Five Hundred LTD AWD for a 300C AWD and got a much better car...IMO. From the steering wheel coming down where it belongs when you turn the key until you pull the key and the wheel goes up it's a better driving experience. And jumping on the hemi...well that's a bonus.

donl1 · August 2006

I traded a Five Hundred LTD AWD for a 300C AWD and got a much better car...IMO. From the steering wheel coming down where it belongs when you turn the key until you pull the key and the wheel goes up it's a better driving experience. And jumping on the hemi...well that's a bonus.

barnstormer64 · August 2006

From the steering wheel coming down where it belongs

Funny, but I prefer the steering wheel right where it is on the Five Hundred . . and I put my seat very far back.

I've NEVER understood those who want the steering wheel so close to them.

exalteddragon1 · August 2006

I don't think ford will stop the 500. Its been selling well, and it does not compete with the fusion. The 500 is a much bigger car and its price goes way above the fusion.

Fusion
18K - 25K
500
20K - 29K

there is some overlap, but basically a loaded fusion is a spartan 500. The two cars target totally different people and so its a good think, plus the MKS will come out soon part of the 500 and montego architechure.

as for the avalon bieng more domestic than ford. I laugh at you. Sure the 500 uses volvo components, but ford owns volvo, and the 500 is made here, and the profits stay here, supporting the US middle class, and current ford employees, as well as indirectly many other businesses.

The fact that toyota started making cars here is a good thing, since they could not justify such high market share otherwise. Don't be fooled, its still a japanese company.

captain2 · August 2006

First of all, Ford USA doesn't have any profits from 'US' operations - Ford Europe does better. And you had better check your math, for whatever portion of the profit does go back into Japan, there is much, much more than that stays here in the form of jobs, parts supplier profits, taxes etc. - as opposed to that money/jobs staying in Sweden or in the case of that Fusion you are talking about, staying in Mexico. As the 'US' manufacturers close plants and leave this country (and the UAW)as fast as they can, it is the 'foreign' mfgrs. that are currently opening plants, creating jobs, and doing more overall to help our overall economies. Just ask somebody in Ky, Al, Oh, or Tenn. and then, go ask somebody that just got laid off or put on restricted hours in the Detroit area somewhere.

captain2 · August 2006

PS - don't be fooled - there are very few cars anymore that are truly American, Japanese, German, or whatever. Do some research - even the Avalons for the Japanese market are assembled in Japan from parts exported from this country. Buick is opening plants in and is starting to bring in parts from China of all places. Chryslers, by your 'where do the profits go argument', I guess must be a German mfgr., or maybe you don't understand what the Crossfire, for example, really is. Flag waving is fine, and wanting to support our own economy is admirable - but buying anything just because it has an American brand name may not really be doing that at all. Times are a'changin'.

quietpro · August 2006

Flag waving is fine, and wanting to support our own economy is admirable - but buying anything just because it has an American brand name may not really be doing that at all.

With all the talk of how much money each American car sold puts into pension and health coverage (last I heard was approx $2K), I would say buying "American" puts a LOT more money into our economy, even if that is into bloated health care expenses.

Sure, it may not be the most efficient way to put money into our economy but it's getting there just the same.

captain2 · August 2006

read somewhere that GM pension obligations PER CAR is $2500, an amount about equal to the amount of money they lose on every car they currently sell. GM lost $10 billion last year. Ford loses a similar amount per US vehicle, but their US losses are offset by profits overseas. In any case, both companies are at fault in negotiations with the UAW; and until they can get a handle on their labor costs they will continue to have problems - the major reason why the US brands are moving out. The UAW better wake up, they may not have anybody left to collect dues from - soon!HOWEVER, Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Hyundai also fund pension and health care programs for their US employees - just not to the ridiculous extent that GM/Ford/Chrysler have to. The idea that putting that kind of money into a retirement program for someone who happened to work the assembly line for 20 years at GM, retired at 50 and now makes a handsome portion of his salary (and paid healthcare) for doing nothing is, to me, a real problem in this country. Retirement programs like this should only be for the police officers, firefighters, military personnel and teachers - not the autoworker.

captain2 · August 2006

and, you are not considering the corporate taxes that both GM and Ford will not have to pay for many years to come (corporate losses are carried forward) even if they do turn it around and start making some money. Toyota (worldwide)apparently made the same $10 billion that GM lost - a good portion of which is in the coffers of Toyota USA (a US corporation) and a not insignificant tax bill - for our erstwhile government to put back into our economy in whatever wasteful fashion they see fit! And the same can be said for those other 'foreign' mfgrs. who have located production facilites here and have figured out that it is possible to make some money producing and selling cars in this country.
I'll stick with my original contention - the Avalon and car like it are every bit as 'American' as those few cars that continue to be produced by the US brand Cos. in this country and more 'American' than the many that are not - despite the funny sounding names!

deminin · August 2006

When we were looking for a new car a few months ago, we looked at and drove several...all those mentioned in this forum title, and many others. My favorite was the Infinity G-35, but since we live way out in the country, some 125 miles from the nearest Infinity dealer, I had to pass on that car. We settled on a 2006 Impala LTZ. It has gobs of power, a tight suspension that corners great, and we are getting 26 to 28 MPG. In the 10+ months we've had it, it has been to the dealer once....to get the brakes recalibrated to meet police specs. So far, the only complaint I have on the LTZ is that they have the speed governed to 113 MPH...What a bummer...this beauty would easily hit 130 or better, and do it with good control.

quietpro · August 2006

Shame on you...don't you know only Japanese nameplates are cool these days. You are only allowed to be humbled by your Chevy purchase and pledge your future support to all things Japanese...simply for being Japanese. They are infallible!

deminin · August 2006

Fortunately, I've reached that point in my life where I no longer feel the need to impress other people with my vehicle choice. I could write a check for all but the most expensive cars out there, but I am more concerned with receiving good value for my money. If someone wants to look down their nose at me and my Chevy, I can just smile and tell them that I paid cash, and the car runs great.
I stopped by the dealership a couple of weeks ago to buy a bottle of touch-up paint to fix a small rock chip. I noticed that the mechanics were not very busy, and seemed to be waiting for some work to roll in. Compare that scenario to the number of recalls and troubles being reported on the Foreign makes, and I figure I made a good choice.
If I go to the "troubles" discussions in this forum, I find a few Chevy owners talking about a little wind noise, and a couple who are having trouble figuring out how to run the AC controls properly (they are a bit confusing, at first). I'll take those kinds of troubles over blown engines and transmissions, every day.

oilcan2 · August 2006

Just a quick note about the UAW made cars,about 23 years ago
a 1 year laid off uaw worker helped me move some furniture in chicago,he had no incentive to go back to work because he was recieving 100% of his pay,this point has nothing to do with the title discussion but that left a bad taste in my
mouth concerning American cars.
I think the bottom line here is if the American brands were
at least equal in inovaton and quality of the other brands
we would be buying them.

captain2 · August 2006

i>They are infallible
No, not nearly. My Avalon, a totally new design in 05, has suffered from its share of QC issues - but, then again, it (and the Azera) are the the only cars in this group that really are 100% new with something more than just a smidgen of innovation and techinical superiority.
Ford just announced the closing of 14 plants, and the loss of tens of thousands of jobs as they seek to right their ship. GM is doing the same. And both close US plants as they move production into Mexico, Canada and the far east. So, if you really wish to 'pledge your future support, to all things 'foreign' buy those 'American' brands - the longer you wait the better the chances you have of getting the world's first Chinese Buick!

snakeweasel · August 2006

Unfortunately that view is widely held. I know many people that own Japanese makes that think their cars are super reliable (even when they have their cars in for warranty work) while everything else id just junk.

My sister who just happens to be a Toyota groupie told me when my car had its first thing go wrong after over 120K miles that that was what I got for buying junk and that I should have gotten a more reliable Toyota like hers. All this while her car had three things go wrong with it in the first 50K miles.

deminin · August 2006

Unfortunately, I have to agree with much of what you say. The trend in recent years is for more American brand cars to be made abroad (my Impala was made in Canada), and more foreign nameplates being made here. At the same time, it seems that quality and reliability of the US brands is increasing, while many of the foreign brands are slipping. Check out one of the more popular discussions on Edmunds titled "2007 Camry woes".
If one searches for the answer as to why this is happening, about the only logical conclusion is the quality of the American Worker. In the past 40 years, we have witnessed the "dumbing down of America". Since ethnics and equality became more important than excellence in our schools, we have been turning out millions of students who are qualified for little other than flipping hamburgers at McDonalds. Couple that with a generation of parents who have given their kids everything but a solid work ethic, and we have a sure recipe for mediocre performance in the workplace. Its little wonder that employers are using so much illegal Mexican labor. At least those people show up for work on time, and do something productive while they are there. Until the American educational system restores excellence to the classroom, and the American worker shows a good appreciation for his/her job, our industries will continue to slide towards that of a 3rd world nation.

pat · August 2006

Lets get back to comparing the actual vehicles that are the subject of this discussion. I'm thinking the Automotive News & Views board is where you want to be looking for discussions about the states of the various manufacturers.

Thanks!

captain2 · August 2006

after all these cars have been around for awhile, IMO:
- Five Hundred, an intelligently designed car that could be so much more if it had a heart. Has been taking a beating in comparison tests because of a dearth of HP from a rough engine and a somewhat reluctant 6 speed. BUT, a really good deal right now if the 3.0 DT is enough for you. OR, wait for the 3.5 which should end up in the 500 by next summer - identical HP/Torque to what is in the Toyota should make it a lot more entertaining and capable ride. Figure that the new 3.5 will not be as bulletproof as the 15 year old 3.0, however.
- Impala, the depreciation leader of this group and also the least expensive to buy and own. The V8 SS the best acceleration of the group at the expense of some torque steer and some rather serious FE penalties. The V6s and fit/finish are unremarkable, at best.
- Azera, intially at least, the best bang for your buck, although depreciation does figure to be close to what the Impala is. Soft riding car not available with any sort of suspension upgrades, and subpar FE primarily due to weight. Decent (and competitive) drivetrain and a vast improvement over the old XG. May be especially good value for those that tend to keep cars a longer time - minimizing the influence of the poorer resale value and adding the value of the longer warranties. Jury is still out on long term reliability.
- Avalon, winner by a comfortable margin, of every comparison I've ever seen done with any selection of (reasonably priced) full-size sedans tested by both the consumer and enthusiast rags - and it is justified. Simply the best combination of power, comfort, and FE available for any car this size. BUT, for whatever resale value advantages it does have, it is also costing that much more to drive it off the lot. AND, probably no better than most other cars in its category when it comes to reliability, as Toyota struggles to keep up with demand (and some of the consequences of all the technology) in what was a 100% new car back in the winter of 05.

gohawaiian · August 2006

"as Toyota struggles to keep up with demand" (for the Avalon)
Is the Avalon actually a hot seller for Toyota? I thought that its substantial premium over a Camry and the fact that you can shop for a Lexus in the Avalon's upper price range were combining to hurt Avalon sales - hence the big discounts off Avalon's MSRP that many buyers have reported. I don't see a lot of Avalons on the road in my city. Has anyone heard a dealer say whether the Avalon is a very successful model, in terms of sales?

captain2 · August 2006

Toyota sold about 100,000 Avalons in its first full year 05-06 about 3 times what they sold the year before. Certainly pales in comparison to the 400-500k Camrys sold - but, then, that would be the No.1 seller in the country. And no they haven't had to discount them, any price even a few hundred OVER invoice is still good after several months at selling close to sticker. 'Big discounts' you mention - not happening AFIK. Same kind of thing going on with the Camry and the ES350 right now - both smaller cars - but, because they are new models, a well optioned Camry V6 will come pretty close to Avalon Touring territory ($28k). The ES is tough to get out of a dealer lot for under about $40k with the option packages normally put on the car - a number even an Avalon Limited has trouble getting to.
As far as the dealers go, it wasn't until well into this year that they were even able to get any - most buyers had to order their Avs and wait several weeks. When was the last time a US branded car had these kind of problems?
And yes, Toyota's Georgetown, Ky. plant was working overtime for awhile (and probably still is) making more cars than they ever have. And sales continue to increase...

wamba2000 · August 2006

captain2, nice assessment of the models compared. As an Azera owner for a couple months, we are very pleased with the ride, construction quality and overall comfort. No it doesn't handle like a BMW, but never intended to.

I looked at the Camry and Avalon, but could not justify the price necessary to buy one. My dealer also had a "take it or leave it" attitude, which I took to mean that I would have a struggle to make any kind of deal.

The Azera will likely work for us as we will own the car for a bunch of year (wife drives it and her commute is 6 miles roundtrip) and the longer warranty takes some of the fear about reliability off the table.

Could be we made a really good deal...or not. Time will tell.

gohawaiian · August 2006

Whoa! - that's a whole lot of Avalons (roughly 1 for every 4 or 5 Camry's.) I'm amazed to learn that! Here in Hawaii, from the time that the current Avalon model was introduced, I would estimate that the Lexus ES model has outnumbered Avalons on the road by a factor of 5 to 1. That also never ceases to amaze me. BTW, '06 Avalons here were selling over the summer for about 10 or 11% below list, which I considered to be a pretty good discount on a Japanese vehicle, as they tend not to offer hefty rebates like the U.S. automakers.

captain2 · August 2006

10-11% off is right about dealer invoice for the base models and a few hundred over with some option packages. A good price for an Avalon and not something you could have done a year ago.

Doesn't surprise me about you seeing more ESs in Hawaii, a place where the 'L' might mean more to some folks. The Avalon outsold the ES by better than 2:1 in 2005 - but keep in mind that is comparing an all new, more powerful (and economical) Avalon with a 'lame duck' ES330. Would imagine that the ES350 is experiencing the same sort of increase now that the Avalon did a year earlier, so the difference is now less - the ES may be the smaller Camry based car - but both it and the new Camry will poach some Avalon sales. The Avalon is not Camry based anymore. In size, at least, the Avalon is closer to the LS.

There is a 3-4% dealer holdback on Avalons now, but no rebates or financing incentives. The kind of thing that the manufacturers don't have to do with a high demand car.

Your 'as they tend not to offer hefty rebates' is right on with most the Japanese branded manufacturers and underscores a point - when you shop for a Ford, Chevy, Chrysler etc. the consumer expects high discounts and low rate finance programs. Saw an ad in yesterday's paper, promising a $5000.00 discount + on the Ford 500 - somewhere about 20% and over 10% below invoice. How much money do you suppose that Ford is making on that sale? Well, the answer is they are not, they are instead losing about 2 grand PER CAR - and the same can be said for GM - except worse. And the point being - until the 'American' mfgrs. can figure out a way to make a profit, they will continue to lag behind those mfgrs. that do. All it takes is money to develop and produce better cars!

Now whether a loaded Avalon XLS that stickers for $35k, and you drive out for $32k, is really worth the extra 7 grand or so vs. that loaded 500 Ltd. that stickers for $30k but you can drive out for $25k - that would be up to the buyers and the subject of lively discussions on forums like this.

Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

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