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Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala
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Comments
IMO, the sales manager at the dealership will order cars for the lot equipped with options the average buyer ( who is not really very well informed ) desires and will likely pay extra for. Maybe you don't buy a car to impress other people, but a lot of people do.
You may have a good point here. I checked four local dealers only found a handful of XL models and none had SC. Really surprised me, I guess I am so used to seeing the XL come in at just under 30K I assumed SC when in reality they are all equipped with moonroofs instead. I know when I was shopping the Touring and XLS all had SC installed (in a package that includes heated seats) I am in southern NJ just outside Philadelphia.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
But one problem with the Avalon Limited with ESC was that they would have to get one from another dealer and it was very far away. So, not as good a deal. Then I had to take my fourth choice color and options I did not want.
Ended up with an Azera and got my first choice in color and options. Of course, it was also about $5,000 cheaper comparably, or better, equipped.
What I get out of that is, carmakers know the public wants the safety features, so they hold them hostage to higher trim levels, useless sunroofs, etc, and make 'em pay for everything to get the one thing they really want.
"they hold them hostage to higher trim levels" manufactures! :surprise:
Time for someone in charge at those 'other' companies to wake up and smell the roses.
If you remember it was the same way for ABS. I think GM was one of the first manufacturers to make it standard on base model vehicles.
P.S. I like my sunroof!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I think to an extent almost all cars today are "safe" Airbags, crumple zones, etc. IMO SC does not make a car any safer, its makes it more likely for someone doing something foolish to get out of trouble. There is a common misunderstanding that SC helps a vehicle handle better. It doesn't. Actually, on a test track it probably takes over before the actual limits of the car.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The biggest problem with Explorer rollovers were that people were driving at high speeds on hot roads in vehicles with high center of gravities on tires that were severly underinflated. IMO that doesn't make the SUV " poorly designed ", or the tires " crappy ".
When Ford began investigating what was going on, they surveyed every vehicle ( not just Explorers ) that came into their dealers for service, and found a very high percentage had less than 20PSI in the tires. Yeah, they could have had a more perfect design, and spec'd a higher recommended tire inflation, but tire inflation is ultimately an owners responsibility.
I guess people would rather get a " Big Gulp " at fillup than spend time checking their tires.
Don't forget that people have different ideas for value - it isn't just features per dollar.
Maybe because for whatever reason the news media didn't pick up on the others and blow it out of proportion.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is Ford we are talking about here. The same manufacturer that rushed the 500 into production with an anemic outdated powertrain. They just don't "get it" I agree put the SC in and call it done. No matter what its merits many people seem to want it in their cars. At this point Ford needs to do whatever to sell cars, it certainly wouldn't hurt. I am sure there is some option that they could have cut to make SC standard and keep the base price close to what it is now.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The only time I have actually turned it off, other than just to test how much it really did affect the car, was when I got a LOT of tar and rocks on my front tires and decided to "burn" them off. With it off you can get some serious wheel spin, if you want.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Volume doesn't help if the incremental profit isn't there.
Apparently most other vehicles were less likely to roll over if the owners abused the tires and didn't inflate them properly.
But that doesn't mean, necessarily, that these vehicles were designed with this in mind . . . they could've just gotten lucky that their design didn't lead to the same number of problems as there was in the Explorer.
Take ten lbs off that recommended pressure and they're into more of a danger area than if the spec'd pressure was in the 30 to 35 PSI range to start with.
The whole deal brings to mind the Audi " unintended acceleration " problem which almost destroyed that company's presence in this country.
The media latched onto that one, too. 60 Minutes had a mechanic rig up an apparatus in the transmission that caused the car to speed up to almost 40 MPH. Drivers complained their cars were " possessed by demons ". In fact, the main cause was the seat to pedal relationship, and drivers were hard on the accelerator rather than the brake. IMO it was driver error. The result - now we all have to have our foot on the brake before shifting out of Park.
We have mandated airbags because people wouldn't buckle up, and we're going to have low tire pressure sensors because people don't check their tire pressure.
True, any good business model would have to balance profit in relation to volume. However, IF Ford would start to sell more, and create demand, they wouldn't have to offer crazy rebates and financing which would in time yield higher profits.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
We have mandated airbags because people wouldn't buckle up, and we're going to have low tire pressure sensors because people don't check their tire pressure."
I don't have a problem with putting my foot on the brake before shifting, actually I think after awhile it has become second nature. Airbags do help and have certainly gotten better with the "dual stage" sensors to accomodate smaller people. The tire pressure monitor isn't just for people that don't check pressure. What if along the highway you picked up a nail and started to lose pressure? If you are on the road for a long ride the system should notify you before the tire gets low enough to heat up and cause a blow out.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I just read a post on the Avalon 08 forum from a gentlemen that was claiming to have paid 'sticker' for his new Avalon - something that happened regulary when the 05 came out as well. And then we wonder why Toyota makes so much money, the Avalon holds it resale values so well, and Toyota seemingly has the money to mfgr generally 'better' cars. Also makes you wonder how long it's been since Ford (or any 'US') mfgr could say the same thing. A lesson to be learned?
Charging a lot for new models keeps prices of old models up.
Of course, there are the many billions in health care costs that Ford owes. Add to this higher current salaries,executive pay, retirement, etc. and you can see how hard it is for the Big Three to compete. Why do you think they build new plants in the anti-union South?
But this does not negate the problem that the Big Three have not paid as much attention to quality as they should have.
overall probably a fair statement (Lexus excluded), but with a coupla caveats - first Toyota has done an admirable job maintaining what it could of its 'legendary ' reliability in spite of meeting rather insane (and unforecasted I believe) growths in demand and secondly most of the other mfgrs have improved to a point that that 'reliability' should only factor in a buying decision when that buyer is expecting 150k (or more) ( or 10 years) out of his/her purchase - very unusual these days. In short it is easy for Ford/GM to produce competitively reliable cars when they have a lot of time (and largely must spend that time because of those union contracts) and in fact those cars must use parts and pieces from yesteryear (financial considerations?) where real new model problems were generally addressed a long time ago. Had either company did what Toyota did do with the Avalon 3 years ago, I think there is a very strong possibility that this reliability gap that is shrinking would instead be widening.
I broke a cardinal rule (never buy a truly new car in its first year of production) with the purchase of my 05 Av, have been rewarded with 60k troublefree miles, and would NEVER have even considered it with something other than a Honda, Toyota, and/or Nissan product. And that, more than any other reason, is why I along with many many others will spend a bit more money on cars made by those particular mfgrs.
I actually LIKE this idea (though not as a federal mandate). It's much easier to check your tire pressure on a routine basis this way.
Now if they'd make it so I could push a button to air up the tires . . .
The current styling of Toyota Avalon and Lexus ES and GS just does not appeal to me.
My Camry was excellent, but have a friend who had a 2003 Camry SE-problems with a part on the engine melting, sunroof "struts" breaking, etc. at about 40,000 miles and Toyota would not repair any of it. He got an Acura (3rd one).
Check out Consumer Reports annual car issue, esp. the reliability of the Lexus GS.
Will admit that when Toyota realized it was losing quality a year or two ago, they did slow down the assembly lines and increase inspections.
Toyota has made great cars and comparively speaking still does, but the competition is heating up.
Also, if the tires are rotated, it cancels the TPMS and you have to re-set it.
Also, Fix-A-Flat will destroy the TPMS sensors.
I've been all over the place researching what car to get. Should I get a "fun" car like the Infiniti G35, a totally practical car like one of the hybrids, or one that will suit the family well with comfort for long trips.
I had never considered Hyundai products, but, due to a recent thread, went to test the Sonata, which I wasn't a big fan of, especially due to its interior design. However, the Azera piqued my interest. Liked the interior/exterior design much better. Went for a test drive and it's moved to the top of my list for a variety of reasons. It has room, is comfortable, has all the amenities that I might want, is reliable (so far in its early history), has the warranty, has plenty of power, and looks to my eyes to be quite attractive, especially with the black exterior/tan leather interior.
The price is amazing. The dealer, knowing that I wouldn't be buying for a while, tried to tempt me with the Limited for about 23K, including destination, but not tax/license.
When I look at other cars, for instance the Avalon or new Accord, I couldn't get nearly the car for that same amount. It's not ever close. Money isn't my only consideration, but, geez, I liked the ride in the Azera more than the Accord or the Avalon. It's almost a no brainer for me.
The downsides were that the Azera seemed to recognize road irregularities more than even my present Accord. Hopefully, the 2008's will address this issue. I don't really want navigation or a moonroof, so the fact that these aren't incorporated into the car doesn't really bother me. Moonroofs are an option and navigation soon will be. I'd also like a CD changer rather than a single disc unit, but, at the price of the option, wouldn't do it, in that I listen primarily to talk radio.
No doubt, my mind could waiver quite a bit as I get closer to actually buying, but, for now, the Azera heads my list. This from someone who wouldn't even consider a Hyundai product a few months ago.
believe this to truly be the case in the specific example of the Toyota V6, but this is an engine which might possibly the best V6 out there at any price is a good example of what can be done with some R&D money - something Toyota has plenty of, and is seriously in short supply over at Ford/GM/Chrysler.
That, is a diplomatic way of saying Azera has a lousy and noisy suspension system, which is my biggest compliant. Other than that, you'll be hard pressed to find the combination of features, warranty and price from ANY manufacturer, especially Honda/Toyota.
But I was surprised. On my test drive, it was like it was braille reading the road. Other than that, it seems so well thought out.
Do you know if they're doing anything to correct the problem?
NEW EQUIPMENT HIGHLIGHTS FOR 2008
· 17-inch alloy wheels now standard on GLS
· Bodycolor rocker panels added to GLS
· GLS Premium Package (includes leather heated front seats and sunroof)
· Side mirror turn signal indicators standard on all Limited models
· Power sunroof standard on all Limited models
· Infinity® audio system standard on all Limited models
· LG navigation system available on Limited trim level
· Suspension enhanced for improved ride and handling
· Azera SE discontinued
Sounds good. Hopefully, it will live up to expectations. Like the part about improved handling as well, although I would expect it to be slight.
While Azera isn't a sports sedan, it definately is not a Buick. And this is coming from someone who is NOT in the Buick demographic (I am a 33 year old Male).
Also from their test:
And when they do, our Touring-edition (more firmly suspended) Avalon is a better sport(ish) sedan than you'd think, though our clocks report it to be a half step behind the Passat and Azera in absolute slalom and skidpad pace. Like the Azera, it's perilously nose-heavy with a 61/39 front/rear weight distribution, but Toyota's stability system turns out to be a particularly cushy catcher's mitt, grabbing wayward chassis gyrations without a stinging rebuke back to the driver.
PS - drive a Lucerne - even the optioned out CXS ($40k) version I drove was 'tighter' than the Azera Ltd. I tried, and the Avalon Touring I own is not even on the same planet in that respect (it admittedly makes some 'ride' compromises )even though it too is no 'sports sedan' (except possibly in straight line performance).
As for SC why on earth wouldn't they disable it when testing these cars (it can be done with a crazy set of commands). As has been said before the system MUST kick in slightly before the actual physical limits of the cars. Having said that Toyota must have some of the most paranoid lawyers of all time. No switch to disable the TRAC/VSC, no scrolling radio data, the "I Agree" screen on the nav system the list goes on. Its OK with me though... the 2GR makes up for all that!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
they generally do (if they can), as is apparent these days with those little asterisks in the skidpad/avoidance test results that indicate 'SC inhibited' in most of the publications. But do you really think that MT (in this case) is going to go thru the trouble of 533 (TIC estimate) brake/parking brake applications to turn it off on an Avalon when this procedure is not even in the owner's manual and Toyota plainly has no intention that we, the owners, should ever do such a thing?
My point really was that if the Azera can achieve a higher speed on a skidpad it is because Hyundai had enough foresight to understand that there are times that perhaps SC/TRAC SHOULD be shutoff - but, these results are not indicative in any way of even comparable handling characteristics. The Azera does feel (and drive) the way the Buicks used to, from my perspective not a good thing. And, yep, these 'TV lawyers' will continue to get more and more out of hand if we allow them to continue to work on commission!
PS you forgot to mention those nasty cupholders that Toyota takes car to admonish us NOT to use for beverages (of any sort). Wish I had the yellow ink concession at wherever Toyota has its manuals printed!