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Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

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Comments

  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Way back before airbags were mandated by the government, General Motors made them an option - I believe they were around $250. Guess what, very few people wanted them enough to pay the extra money. Same thing with ABS.
    IMO, the sales manager at the dealership will order cars for the lot equipped with options the average buyer ( who is not really very well informed ) desires and will likely pay extra for. Maybe you don't buy a car to impress other people, but a lot of people do.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    Hey Grad,

    You may have a good point here. I checked four local dealers only found a handful of XL models and none had SC. Really surprised me, I guess I am so used to seeing the XL come in at just under 30K I assumed SC when in reality they are all equipped with moonroofs instead. I know when I was shopping the Touring and XLS all had SC installed (in a package that includes heated seats) I am in southern NJ just outside Philadelphia.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • bobber1bobber1 Member Posts: 217
    When I was shopping for my new Taurus, I wanted stability control on the base model. It was an option, but when I did a local dealer search almost none of them had it included on the cars on the lot. They all had convenience packages, but few safety packages. The reply I got from the dealers was the Taurus is really safe car without stability control. I don't disagree, but some families are going to want the safest car possible which in my book includes stability control
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    I looked at the Avalon, but really didn't like it all that much.
    But one problem with the Avalon Limited with ESC was that they would have to get one from another dealer and it was very far away. So, not as good a deal. Then I had to take my fourth choice color and options I did not want.
    Ended up with an Azera and got my first choice in color and options. Of course, it was also about $5,000 cheaper comparably, or better, equipped.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    Take that example above about the 2% of Avalon XL's that have ESC.

    What I get out of that is, carmakers know the public wants the safety features, so they hold them hostage to higher trim levels, useless sunroofs, etc, and make 'em pay for everything to get the one thing they really want.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    A perfect example of why we bought our Azzy over and above those
    "they hold them hostage to higher trim levels" manufactures! :surprise:

    Time for someone in charge at those 'other' companies to wake up and smell the roses. ;)

    :)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "so they hold them hostage to higher trim levels, useless sunroofs, etc"

    If you remember it was the same way for ABS. I think GM was one of the first manufacturers to make it standard on base model vehicles.

    P.S. I like my sunroof! :)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "The reply I got from the dealers was the Taurus is really safe car without stability control"

    I think to an extent almost all cars today are "safe" Airbags, crumple zones, etc. IMO SC does not make a car any safer, its makes it more likely for someone doing something foolish to get out of trouble. There is a common misunderstanding that SC helps a vehicle handle better. It doesn't. Actually, on a test track it probably takes over before the actual limits of the car.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    relatively speaking - sure. But it is contradictory for Ford (in this case) to promote the heck out of what they would like you to believe is the 'safest' car in its class, to offer SC as a $500.00 option while it is standard on the Taurus X and will be federally mandated by the 2010 models anyway. It would seem that if Ford is expecting us to accept it as a 'new' car, then it should be equipped to at least meet governmental requirements for a lousy 2 model years. Kinda like mfgrs bragging on tire inflation monitors, something also recently added by our erstwhile government and also a 'knee jerk' reaction to some poorly desgned SUVs with crappy tires
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    'knee jerk' reaction to some poorly desgned SUVs with crappy tires
    The biggest problem with Explorer rollovers were that people were driving at high speeds on hot roads in vehicles with high center of gravities on tires that were severly underinflated. IMO that doesn't make the SUV " poorly designed ", or the tires " crappy ".
    When Ford began investigating what was going on, they surveyed every vehicle ( not just Explorers ) that came into their dealers for service, and found a very high percentage had less than 20PSI in the tires. Yeah, they could have had a more perfect design, and spec'd a higher recommended tire inflation, but tire inflation is ultimately an owners responsibility.
    I guess people would rather get a " Big Gulp " at fillup than spend time checking their tires.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Of course the Azera has traction control and vehicle skid control standard. Just another reason why the Azera is the value leader for full sedans.
  • bobber1bobber1 Member Posts: 217
    You're right and I never quite figured out why Ford replaced all those tires. In my opinion it's one of the biggest mistakes they ever made.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Depends on where you place value. If on features alone, then it sure does win.

    Don't forget that people have different ideas for value - it isn't just features per dollar.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    while I am on record as putting a big fat question mark over these governmental requirements for supposed 'safety' systems in all vehicles and I happen to agree that it was likely not Ford's fault for all those Explorer rollovers, I only then ask the obvious question - why was this ONLY a problem with the Explorer specifically - if not somehow a design issue? There are certainly many many Explorer 'clones' out there made by a number of different mfgrs.that logically should have suffered from the same sort of problems.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    although I 'tested' a Sonata that didn't seem to have terribly invasive TC/VSC settings (would suppose the Azera must be the same), there are those among us that might just downgrade the Azera because TC/VSC is the only way it comes. Beauty will always be in the eye.....
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    I only then ask the obvious question - why was this ONLY a problem with the Explorer specifically

    Maybe because for whatever reason the news media didn't pick up on the others and blow it out of proportion.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    It also has the advantage of an off switch.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    nonsense - and not because the 'media' didn't make 'a big deal' out of it. The whole Explorer incident cost Ford millions (if not billions) not to mention almost destroying what was one one the largest tire mfgrs in the world - do you really believe that if Ford or Firestone/Bridgestone could have cast any doubts on what the media was largely attributing to vehicle and/or tire designs, that they wouldn't have? They could have simply commissioned one of these now infamous 'Ford Challenges' with let's say a Blazer (or Cherokee) with similarly underinflated tires, and come up the the result they wanted - an obvious 'solution' - throwing the competition under the bus as well. IMO, the fact that they didn't lends some creedance to the 'design flaw' claims. I still don't understand how these overpaid lawyers ever 'proved' negligence on Ford or Firestone's part, however!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    jaymagic - realistically ,yourself as well as other Azera drivers will always be driving with the thing on (its default mode). Since it is going to require a conscious decision(and step) to disable it - the only time I can imagine doing such a thing is when the road conditions are really really bad OR you, for some reason, want to get a little 'wild and crazy' in which case it is better for the rest of us that you didn't have that switch in the first place...
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "It would seem that if Ford is expecting us to accept it as a 'new' car, then it should be equipped to at least meet governmental requirements for a lousy 2 model years"

    This is Ford we are talking about here. The same manufacturer that rushed the 500 into production with an anemic outdated powertrain. They just don't "get it" I agree put the SC in and call it done. No matter what its merits many people seem to want it in their cars. At this point Ford needs to do whatever to sell cars, it certainly wouldn't hurt. I am sure there is some option that they could have cut to make SC standard and keep the base price close to what it is now.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I am forced to admit there is much wisdom in your statement, captain ;)

    The only time I have actually turned it off, other than just to test how much it really did affect the car, was when I got a LOT of tar and rocks on my front tires and decided to "burn" them off. With it off you can get some serious wheel spin, if you want.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    The media always finds something and attaches itself to it like a pit bull, a flavor of the month sort of speak. They tend to blow these things all out of proportion and bad things can happen because of it.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    At this point Ford needs to do whatever to sell cars

    Volume doesn't help if the incremental profit isn't there.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I only then ask the obvious question - why was this ONLY a problem with the Explorer specifically - if not somehow a design issue?

    Apparently most other vehicles were less likely to roll over if the owners abused the tires and didn't inflate them properly.

    But that doesn't mean, necessarily, that these vehicles were designed with this in mind . . . they could've just gotten lucky that their design didn't lead to the same number of problems as there was in the Explorer.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    I do recall that there was some reason with the Explorer design that caused Ford to recommend a lower than normal inflation pressure - something like 26 or 28 PSI.
    Take ten lbs off that recommended pressure and they're into more of a danger area than if the spec'd pressure was in the 30 to 35 PSI range to start with.
    The whole deal brings to mind the Audi " unintended acceleration " problem which almost destroyed that company's presence in this country.
    The media latched onto that one, too. 60 Minutes had a mechanic rig up an apparatus in the transmission that caused the car to speed up to almost 40 MPH. Drivers complained their cars were " possessed by demons ". In fact, the main cause was the seat to pedal relationship, and drivers were hard on the accelerator rather than the brake. IMO it was driver error. The result - now we all have to have our foot on the brake before shifting out of Park.
    We have mandated airbags because people wouldn't buckle up, and we're going to have low tire pressure sensors because people don't check their tire pressure.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "Volume doesn't help if the incremental profit isn't there"

    True, any good business model would have to balance profit in relation to volume. However, IF Ford would start to sell more, and create demand, they wouldn't have to offer crazy rebates and financing which would in time yield higher profits.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "The result - now we all have to have our foot on the brake before shifting out of Park.
    We have mandated airbags because people wouldn't buckle up, and we're going to have low tire pressure sensors because people don't check their tire pressure."

    I don't have a problem with putting my foot on the brake before shifting, actually I think after awhile it has become second nature. Airbags do help and have certainly gotten better with the "dual stage" sensors to accomodate smaller people. The tire pressure monitor isn't just for people that don't check pressure. What if along the highway you picked up a nail and started to lose pressure? If you are on the road for a long ride the system should notify you before the tire gets low enough to heat up and cause a blow out.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    they wouldn't have to offer crazy rebates and financing which would in time yield higher profits.
    I just read a post on the Avalon 08 forum from a gentlemen that was claiming to have paid 'sticker' for his new Avalon - something that happened regulary when the 05 came out as well. And then we wonder why Toyota makes so much money, the Avalon holds it resale values so well, and Toyota seemingly has the money to mfgr generally 'better' cars. Also makes you wonder how long it's been since Ford (or any 'US') mfgr could say the same thing. A lesson to be learned?
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Very complicated situation. To some extent Toyota/Lexus is riding on its reputation, which was fairly earned. However, reliability in last few years has not been as good. Many, but not all, Toyota or Lexus dealers will only knock a couple of hundred off an Avalon or Lexus, whereas other dealers, such as Hyundai, knock off thousands.
    Charging a lot for new models keeps prices of old models up.
    Of course, there are the many billions in health care costs that Ford owes. Add to this higher current salaries,executive pay, retirement, etc. and you can see how hard it is for the Big Three to compete. Why do you think they build new plants in the anti-union South?
    But this does not negate the problem that the Big Three have not paid as much attention to quality as they should have.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    reliability in last few years has not been as good
    overall probably a fair statement (Lexus excluded), but with a coupla caveats - first Toyota has done an admirable job maintaining what it could of its 'legendary ' reliability in spite of meeting rather insane (and unforecasted I believe) growths in demand and secondly most of the other mfgrs have improved to a point that that 'reliability' should only factor in a buying decision when that buyer is expecting 150k (or more) ( or 10 years) out of his/her purchase - very unusual these days. In short it is easy for Ford/GM to produce competitively reliable cars when they have a lot of time (and largely must spend that time because of those union contracts) and in fact those cars must use parts and pieces from yesteryear (financial considerations?) where real new model problems were generally addressed a long time ago. Had either company did what Toyota did do with the Avalon 3 years ago, I think there is a very strong possibility that this reliability gap that is shrinking would instead be widening.
    I broke a cardinal rule (never buy a truly new car in its first year of production) with the purchase of my 05 Av, have been rewarded with 60k troublefree miles, and would NEVER have even considered it with something other than a Honda, Toyota, and/or Nissan product. And that, more than any other reason, is why I along with many many others will spend a bit more money on cars made by those particular mfgrs.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    and we're going to have low tire pressure sensors because people don't check their tire pressure.

    I actually LIKE this idea (though not as a federal mandate). It's much easier to check your tire pressure on a routine basis this way.

    Now if they'd make it so I could push a button to air up the tires . . . :D
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Had a 2003 Camry XLE V6 and traded up to an Azera at 67,000 miles. Just didn't like the Avalon inside or out and hard to get ESC. Also, dealer offered very little off on a Limited and very little for my car compared to Hyundai.
    The current styling of Toyota Avalon and Lexus ES and GS just does not appeal to me.
    My Camry was excellent, but have a friend who had a 2003 Camry SE-problems with a part on the engine melting, sunroof "struts" breaking, etc. at about 40,000 miles and Toyota would not repair any of it. He got an Acura (3rd one).
    Check out Consumer Reports annual car issue, esp. the reliability of the Lexus GS.
    Will admit that when Toyota realized it was losing quality a year or two ago, they did slow down the assembly lines and increase inspections.
    Toyota has made great cars and comparively speaking still does, but the competition is heating up.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    I have TPMS on my wife's RAV4 and appreciate it. However, I do not believe it actually measures it accurately to within one or two pounds as we should. That's why I still check mine periodically.
    Also, if the tires are rotated, it cancels the TPMS and you have to re-set it.
    Also, Fix-A-Flat will destroy the TPMS sensors.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    suggest a high degree of correlation between 'newness' of product lines, production numbers - and any perceived (or real) incidence of problems. Using Toyota as the 'fall guy', it must also be noted that every vehicle starting all the way up at FS PU trucks and only excluding the Mexican built Corolla are new and reengineered vehicles since 2005- let 'Detroit' try that and we would have bodies in the streets - literally.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Sorry, I am having trouble understanding what you are trying to say.
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    Even though my Accord has only 25K on it, I'll be buying a new car in the next year. The Accord will go to my youngest daughter who, by then, will have her license.

    I've been all over the place researching what car to get. Should I get a "fun" car like the Infiniti G35, a totally practical car like one of the hybrids, or one that will suit the family well with comfort for long trips.

    I had never considered Hyundai products, but, due to a recent thread, went to test the Sonata, which I wasn't a big fan of, especially due to its interior design. However, the Azera piqued my interest. Liked the interior/exterior design much better. Went for a test drive and it's moved to the top of my list for a variety of reasons. It has room, is comfortable, has all the amenities that I might want, is reliable (so far in its early history), has the warranty, has plenty of power, and looks to my eyes to be quite attractive, especially with the black exterior/tan leather interior.

    The price is amazing. The dealer, knowing that I wouldn't be buying for a while, tried to tempt me with the Limited for about 23K, including destination, but not tax/license.

    When I look at other cars, for instance the Avalon or new Accord, I couldn't get nearly the car for that same amount. It's not ever close. Money isn't my only consideration, but, geez, I liked the ride in the Azera more than the Accord or the Avalon. It's almost a no brainer for me.

    The downsides were that the Azera seemed to recognize road irregularities more than even my present Accord. Hopefully, the 2008's will address this issue. I don't really want navigation or a moonroof, so the fact that these aren't incorporated into the car doesn't really bother me. Moonroofs are an option and navigation soon will be. I'd also like a CD changer rather than a single disc unit, but, at the price of the option, wouldn't do it, in that I listen primarily to talk radio.

    No doubt, my mind could waiver quite a bit as I get closer to actually buying, but, for now, the Azera heads my list. This from someone who wouldn't even consider a Hyundai product a few months ago.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    rather simple, pretty much every vehicle you find on Toyota/Lexus lots are or were new designs no later than 2005, primarily to the line wide adoption of the 2GR drivetrain while those "American" mfgrs are still using 10-50 year old drivetrain vintages. Take the Lucerne, for example, both the vintage 3.8 or even the slightly more current, Northstar are both established designs and logically would have fewer 'teething' problems. Don't
    believe this to truly be the case in the specific example of the Toyota V6, but this is an engine which might possibly the best V6 out there at any price is a good example of what can be done with some R&D money - something Toyota has plenty of, and is seriously in short supply over at Ford/GM/Chrysler.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 801: "The downsides were that the Azera seemed to recognize road irregularities more".

    That, is a diplomatic way of saying Azera has a lousy and noisy suspension system, which is my biggest compliant. Other than that, you'll be hard pressed to find the combination of features, warranty and price from ANY manufacturer, especially Honda/Toyota.
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    Yes, I was being diplomatic. :)

    But I was surprised. On my test drive, it was like it was braille reading the road. Other than that, it seems so well thought out.

    Do you know if they're doing anything to correct the problem?
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 804: The following is from a recent press release for '08 Azera. See below (suspension)

    NEW EQUIPMENT HIGHLIGHTS FOR 2008

    · 17-inch alloy wheels now standard on GLS
    · Bodycolor rocker panels added to GLS
    · GLS Premium Package (includes leather heated front seats and sunroof)
    · Side mirror turn signal indicators standard on all Limited models
    · Power sunroof standard on all Limited models
    · Infinity® audio system standard on all Limited models
    · LG navigation system available on Limited trim level
    · Suspension enhanced for improved ride and handling
    · Azera SE discontinued
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    Hey, thanks.

    Sounds good. Hopefully, it will live up to expectations. Like the part about improved handling as well, although I would expect it to be slight.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    as an Avalon Touring owner, it is the 'Buick' soft (and sloppy) suspension that would keep me from considering the Azera. It is like Hyundai was trying to outdo the Buicks except, of course, that even the new Buicks don't drive like the Buicks of the past. A mistake on Hyundai's part not to offer a 'Touring' or 'sports' trim.
  • chrisa222chrisa222 Member Posts: 17
    I do not consider the Azera to have a "sloppy" suspension, ESPECIALLY compared to an Avalon. Have you guys read the reviews of these cars? Azera had faster slalom speed than Avalon. I will try to find the numbers and post them.

    While Azera isn't a sports sedan, it definately is not a Buick. And this is coming from someone who is NOT in the Buick demographic (I am a 33 year old Male).
  • chrisa222chrisa222 Member Posts: 17
    Avalon vs. Azera... 600-foot slalom Azera 63.8MPH, Avalon 61.9 MPH (Motor Trend)

    Also from their test:

    And when they do, our Touring-edition (more firmly suspended) Avalon is a better sport(ish) sedan than you'd think, though our clocks report it to be a half step behind the Passat and Azera in absolute slalom and skidpad pace. Like the Azera, it's perilously nose-heavy with a 61/39 front/rear weight distribution, but Toyota's stability system turns out to be a particularly cushy catcher's mitt, grabbing wayward chassis gyrations without a stinging rebuke back to the driver.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    IMO it is - just like the non-Touring trims of the Avalon. The best 2 reviews I can think of that put things in a proper perspective are the $30k sedans comparo in CD back in the summer of 05, and then a more up to date effort pitting the Azera, the Av Touring, and the Passat (by MT?) about a year later. All these comparos incidentally 'won' by the Avalon, along with CRs 'highest' rated sedan (06) at that time (in softer XLS trim). The Azera, as noted in that MT comparison, is indeed in the same zip code, and certainly can compare favorably if initial cost is a paramount consideration.

    PS - drive a Lucerne - even the optioned out CXS ($40k) version I drove was 'tighter' than the Azera Ltd. I tried, and the Avalon Touring I own is not even on the same planet in that respect (it admittedly makes some 'ride' compromises )even though it too is no 'sports sedan' (except possibly in straight line performance).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    we've been thru this before, stability control systems are no 'friend' to things like slalom speed tests and results- particularly when the system can not be effectively disabled as on Toyota/Lexus products so equipped. From a drivers perspective, a demerit on the Avalon's side for sure, but more a result of silly stability control 'interference' (or non-interference as the case may be) - doubt very seriously that these test speeds would be the same if both vehicles competed with the stability control system 'off', Toyota's (or Toyota's lawyers) preference for more 'conservative' yaw sensor settings?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    There is absolutely no way that the Touring Avalon is not firmer than the Azera. My XLS is even a touch firmer from what I can remember from my test drives. The Touring Avalon was actually knocked for having too hard a ride in on of the comparison tests you mentioned.

    As for SC why on earth wouldn't they disable it when testing these cars (it can be done with a crazy set of commands). As has been said before the system MUST kick in slightly before the actual physical limits of the cars. Having said that Toyota must have some of the most paranoid lawyers of all time. No switch to disable the TRAC/VSC, no scrolling radio data, the "I Agree" screen on the nav system the list goes on. Its OK with me though... the 2GR makes up for all that!

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    I agree, Captain. I, too, prefer a sportier suspension. I'm hoping that it will move that direction in 2008.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    As for SC why on earth wouldn't they disable it when testing these cars (it can be done with a crazy set of commands
    they generally do (if they can), as is apparent these days with those little asterisks in the skidpad/avoidance test results that indicate 'SC inhibited' in most of the publications. But do you really think that MT (in this case) is going to go thru the trouble of 533 (TIC estimate) brake/parking brake applications to turn it off on an Avalon when this procedure is not even in the owner's manual and Toyota plainly has no intention that we, the owners, should ever do such a thing?
    My point really was that if the Azera can achieve a higher speed on a skidpad it is because Hyundai had enough foresight to understand that there are times that perhaps SC/TRAC SHOULD be shutoff - but, these results are not indicative in any way of even comparable handling characteristics. The Azera does feel (and drive) the way the Buicks used to, from my perspective not a good thing. And, yep, these 'TV lawyers' will continue to get more and more out of hand if we allow them to continue to work on commission! :(

    PS you forgot to mention those nasty cupholders that Toyota takes car to admonish us NOT to use for beverages (of any sort). Wish I had the yellow ink concession at wherever Toyota has its manuals printed!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    hope they do as well, it shouldn't require much - sway bar resizing, firmer struts/shocks, stiffer springs (not necessarily all of the above)but would logically have no impact on price one way or the other. But, despite 33 year old protestations otherwise would also think the Azera is more likely to be viewed by its owners as the same boulevard cruiser that the Avalon owners view their cars.
This discussion has been closed.