What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

reddogs · December 2005

What will it take for customers to come back and buy cars from the BIG 3 again.

For 2005, Ford reported a third quarter loss of $203 million, or 10 cents a share. This includes a pre-tax loss of $1.2 billion for the North American automotive operations.This is after recovering from previous years loses, when Ford lost $5.6 billion. Ford cut costs, closed plants, eliminated marginally profitable models, trimmed its workforce, restructured its finance company.

DaimlerChrysler AG said its domestic vehicle sales fell in November, hurt by lower demand for both Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler Group automobiles.The company's overall volume last month dropped to 178,182 units from 183,112 the year before, a decrease of 6.6 percent.

GM just announced their biggest first-quarter loss since 1992 at $1.1 billion and a report from financial analysts on Friday has outlined a restructuring for the ailing company. The report called for GM to eliminate 20,000 to 30,000 jobs in North America and close 4 plants. It also outlined GM dropping at least one brand and a restructuring.

Ford has been losing sales the last few years but has come back with the hot selling Mustang and the F-150 series truck line.

Chrysler has had some uneven performancer in sale but it has Daimler to lean on and seems to be going in the right direction with its "fresh" designs and Hemi powered trucks but that can change with the price of gas at the pumps.

GM seems to have no clue as to what to do to stop the slide , cutting workers and closing factories as it restructures itself. It has overpriced its cars with poor designs and no real distinctions between the brands.

What advice can we as consumers and car buyers, who see all this very clearly, give to the Big 3 so that they start making more cars we want or change in a way that makes their products better able to compete for our car buying dollars.

We changed from buying GM, Ford and Chrysler to other brands because we found something in the other cars that we liked that they were missing.

What is it the Big 3 need to do in their cars that would make us want to buy them whether it be pricing, design, marketing, dealer presentation, lot layout, anything to make us come back and buy American and feel good about it..

lemmer · November 2005

I don't think any intelligent economist would project your scenario, but it sounds like a good movie.

I would like to see GM go bankrupt and emerge as a smaller stronger company that concentrates on what they do well. I think part of the appeal of Honda and Toyota is that they don't make anything that plain sucks. If you know nothing about cars, whether you need a minivan or an economy car or something in between, you can show up and fine a great choice.

GM is so hit or miss. How can the same company that makes a Suburban make a Rendezvous? What is the genetic strand that holds those two SUVs together? One can seemlessly step from a Corolla to a Camry or even a Scion TC to a Highlander. Can the same be said for the baby step from an Aveo to a Cobalt?

It is like they are throwing darts blindfolded.

au94 · December 2005

Design, price and value for the price are the big hitters for me.

In the past 12 months I have bought 2 vehicles. Last December, I chose a 4Runner over an Explorer, the only domestic I considered. I found both to be pleasing to MY eye and were priced reasonably competitive. I chose the 4Runner because I liked the look just a little better and felt like I got a better deal. Honestly it was just that "gut feeling" that said get the Toyota over the Ford. I have owned an Explorer before aand had no problems with it. This could have been an influence on my decision..."been there done that."

In August, we purchased my wife a Volvo S40. We really liked the Caddy CTS, but they have sucessfully priced it out of the near lux market as you can never find the base 2.8 model on dealer lots. While Saab is a GM product, we were scared of the reliability. Those are the only 2 domestics that were considered. We just did not feel like there was an offering form GM, DC or Ford that offered the style and performance of the Volvo.

To my eye, no Chevy's are appealing. Buick's just not me, I'm 34. Some Pontiac's look ok, then I get a look at that famous GM interior. I like the direction Cadillac is going with their designs, but it does not take long for them to get expensive. Yes, I know they are trying to compete with BMW, Lexus etc.

DC has some interesting stuff out there, but not intersting enough for me to buy. I like the 300, the Charger, Durango and Dakota, but I'm not sure if I'd still like it a year from now.

As for Ford, the Fusion looks good on the outside, I've not seen the indside. Still like Ford trucks.

andre1969 · December 2005

is not so much that the domestic brands even suck, for lack of a better term. It's that even when they're good, there's usually a Japanese or European equivalent that's just a little bit better, and enough to sway the buyer away.

A good example is the Chevy Malibu. Not a bad car, although a bit homely, and I never could get used to the numb electric steering that just seemed slow to respond. And they even cleaned it up with the '06 restyle to where I can finally bear to look at it. It gets decent fuel economy, is fairly roomy and comfy, and not a bad performer. But a Camry or Accord just seems to improve on the Malibu in just about every respect, and when comparably equipped, really aren't that much more expensive. Then, throw in the quality reputation and the improved resale value that goes with that, and the Malibu becomes a bit of a hard sell.

john_324 · December 2005

I like the Malibu Maxx version myself. It's quirk-ily cool...if it were available with a manual, I'd consider one if I needed a more utilitarian vehicle.

proteus456 · December 2005

What would it take to buy "American"?
I assume, not counting the Toyota and Honda cars that have more US content than many domestics?

Very simple. I would have to see a mid-size luxury car, with a HIGH QUALITY interior, modern powertrain, decent city mileage, and great design and engineering throughout.

I have a '97 Audi A4, and have yet to see any US car that even comes close. The Ford 500 was a joke, in terms of interior quality. Cheap, hard plastics, noisy engine, lousy road feel, poor ergonomics.
The Cadillac CTS felt cheap, and unrefined. Again, US manufacturers MUST spend some money on interior quality, noise and vibration damping.

Yes, I know trucks are popular. I know the majority of "Red Americans" love their Ford F150 Dump/Gravel/Pickup trucks. Domestic manufacturers are truly the "Wal-mart" of the car world. Cheap, reliable, basic transportation.

For the rest of us, who are willing to pay more for quality at the "Target and Costco" of the car world...we have Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, BMW, Acura/Honda...etc

proteus456 · December 2005

How to fix the problem?
Pick a "high end" domestic car brand....say, Cadillac.
Throw out almost the existing GM parts bin, especially the interior parts. Buy an Audi, or VW, and carefully study the interior materials. Note the soft-touch plastics everywhere, the lack of exposed metal, the extensive insulation. Note the well built, dampened switchgear,real metal, or heavy ABS plastic.

Now look at the exterior. Note the lack of significant gap between body panels. Look at the clean lines.

Note the modern powertrain. Remove any moronic notions about using live rear axles, pushrod engines, or any junk like that. Independent multilink suspensions and modern OHC engines please. Modestly size ones. Nobody needs a frickin V8 anymore, when a modern V6 can put out 300+ hp.
A V6 Northstar type engine would do nicely. Of course, make SURE ABS, skid control, airbags everywhere, etc are all standard. AWD would be nice too. Go ahead and BEAT the competition by offering nice factory AV systems. German AV systems suck currently ($1800 Mercedes cellphone anyone?)

Actually, the Cadillac CTS came pretty close. Just completely redo the interior, make sure all safety features are standard, revamp the quality, and sell it for $35k. Give me a good lease on it...
Domestic leases SUCK! due to the very low resale value compared to foreign cars.

Then, I'll be glad to buy one.

jlawrence01 · December 2005

For the rest of us, who are willing to pay more for quality at the "Target and Costco" of the car world...we have Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, BMW, Acura/Honda...etc

I normally avoid retailers as I generally have everything I need or want. However, about once a year, I head to Walmart, Costco, Sams Club, and Target to see what the buzz is all about.

Bsically, they all sell the same imported junk. And most of the stuff is pretty much the same. And the people that work in those places look pretty much the same (if you can find an employee somewhere).

Costco and Target stores look prettier and the people who shop there seem not to mind paying 5-10% more to pay for the wider aisles and the extra overhead.

But why? I am buying the same Lipitor, the same Hamilton Beach toaster that **might** pop the toast up at the same time, and the same Coca Cola. (I will admit that the endless display of big screen TVs at Costco does give you more of a "wow" factor.)

Personally, I can't see spending big money on a "driving machine" when most of my driving consists of short drives between lights in town plus five miles on country roads. It is not like you can ever really take a car out in Chicago and really feel much of the difference.

The brand that you drive fundamentally has more to do with status than anything else. One of my clients just built one of those monster mansions outside of Chicago for about $3M ... a real surprise as I thought he would buy a lakefront condo when he retired. "Why did you build it?" ... "Because I can."

carlisimo · December 2005

Fair enough. But the domestics are even more behind in making good city cars!

andre1969 · December 2005

if you're worried about something small and nimble then yeah, the domestics are behind because for the most part, they don't make really small cars.

Jlawrence has a good point, though. When it comes to just point A to point B transportation, there really isn't a whole lot of difference between cars. If you put me behind the wheel of some AMG Benz, it wouldn't get me to work or back home any quicker than my Intrepid because of one little thing. Traffic lights. The great equalizer. Oh sure, I could take off quicker if I was the lead car at the light. Only to get caught by the next red light.

Heck, in my situation even having a reliable car isn't all that big of a deal. I only work 3 1/2 miles away. If the damn thing breaks down I'll just walk the rest of the way! Heater cuts out? Well, half the time it wouldn't get hot until I pulled into the parking lot at work anyway, so no big deal. Radio quits working? I can deal with the silence for 6 or 7 minutes. Gives me a chance to listen to all the sounds of impending doom the car may be emitting! :P

jlawrence01 · December 2005

Last year, I hired another CPA to do some work from me. The guy drives a Porsche. He said he bought it because "the car is a lot safer than the Lincoln Continental I was driving".

"How's that?"

"The ride was so boring that I was afraid that I would fall asleep at the wheel."

Yeah, right. It was a STATUS purchase.

Andre - I have a dozen + cars coming off lease in the next year including a few cream puff low mileage. However, since the old beater keeps going and going, I am starting to wonder whether I'll buy another car.

carlisimo · December 2005

Uh... I think I'd fall asleep driving a Lincoln Contintal as well. If it was a status purchase though... well, that's another problem American brands have. All of their premium brands have been dragged through the mud, and they're not quite the same after coming out of it.

If he got the Porsche because it's more fun to drive, that's not good for American brands either.

artg · December 2005

All my cars are American, but the majority around these parts are not. Probably for much the same reason a U.S. Airline would buy Airbus over Boeing--they perceive a high quality product that fits their needs falling within their budget.
There are so many Subarus and Volvos in this county because buyers perceive them (real or not) as long-lasting and reliable.
Catch-up in build and material quality takes a while; changing perception takes much longer.

au94 · December 2005

"is not so much that the domestic brands even suck, for lack of a better term. It's that even when they're good, there's usually a Japanese or European equivalent that's just a little bit better, and enough to sway the buyer away."

Andre--Excellent summation!!

reddogs · December 2005

It has all the right things, looks, history, power, sleek design, nice selection of colors yet when I say anything to 'de boss' she holds back.....(I previously had a 1971 MACH I and she had a 1967 red Mustang so we both like Mustangs)....

After reading this mornings news I can't say I blame her..
The Wall Street Journal has that Ford may close five plants. The automaker is likely to shut North American facilities that employ about 7,500 workers.

"Ford Motor Co. is likely to close five plants that employ about 7,500 workers, or about 6 percent of the company's North American work force, the Wall Street Journal reported Friday.

Citing two people familiar with Ford's (Research) product plans, the paper said the company was likely to shut assembly plants in St. Louis, Atlanta and St. Paul, Minn., as well as an engine-parts plant in Windsor, Ontario, and a truck-assembly plant in Cuautitlan, Mexico.

The plans to shut the plants were still being formulated and were subject to change, the Journal added.

Ford, facing a deepening financial crisis, has promised to unveil a radical restructuring in North America early next year."

I want that Mustang badly but I also want the company to be around for parts and service, just take a look at the problems at Delphi for GM. It just gives you a knot in your stomach when your getting ready to put down $20,000 or more for a 2 door car that may be restructuring itself into bankruptcy or selling out like Chrysler.......

lemko · December 2005

I believe the domestics excel at building city cars. I'm not talking about tiny nimble little microcars. I'm talking about big, heavy, durable cars that can take the punishment of the harsh urban environment, potholed streets, and insane traffic. My domestics have held up admirably for decades among Philly's tough streets. This is one huge factor that leads me back to domestics year after year. You will see a lot of big GM, Ford, and Chrysler vehicles still plying the streets long after their foreign competition has simply been pounded apart or collapsed into piles of iron oxide after a few NE winters and the oceans of road salt.

nippononly · December 2005

I am convinced that very fact is why many people in the last decade have bought trucks for their next vehicle instead of buying a new car. It is one reason why I prefer my truck: the road is a lot less able to beat me or my vehicle up when I drive. :sick:

john_324 · December 2005

I think these are very good good points.

I'm of the mind that U.S. car companies could profitably pursue the "Crown Vic" niche...simple, wear-like-iron vehicles that forgo bells and whistles in favor of durability and longevity. I mean I really think your average driver would trade his "On-Star" system for doors that close with a reassuring "thud" like they did in the old days...

I know plenty of people who want nothing more out of a car than something that will take heeps of abuse and still keep going, like some automotive Terminator.

nippononly · December 2005

Cars have become rather more fragile over the years in their transition to unibody designs and "just enough" engineering philosophies. And since they have now put most of their former weight back on in their quest to be as tight as a drum for less body flex (something a frame will soak up in a BOF car), and as they have gained multiple subframes to insulate the riders from the road, it seems like they should just forget it and go back to the durable BOF designs of yesteryear.

Of course, Ford is in the best position to exploit this idea, as it still has the CV/GM Panther platform. But they also have the recently designed, very expensive Five Hundred/S60 platform for their larger cars, which has received much praise, damped only by lack of enthusiasm for the small engine. What to do, what to do?! :-P

merc1 · December 2005

Yeah but they're only a few Domestic cars like that left and they aren't where the market is. Those past cars you speak of may still be on the road but their condition was terrible. There are still lots of older GM cars around but they are the junkiest things on the road inside and out. True then can take abuse, especially older American cars with live axles and what not, but they're obsolete and the few remaining cars like that from Ford have proven to be death traps in the case of the Crown Vic.

This is precisely why the domestics are in the shape they're in. They've got to make a Japanese style car in quality and refinement with an American/Euro twist (like styling or fun to drive) to survive IMO. Or go totally American in flavor with some help in engineering like the Chrysler 300, thus making people want to actually drive and proud to own an American car again. They've got to take some chances in design and think outside the usual box, especially GM.

What is your opinion on the GM canceling their next generation RWD cars to bring the next generation SUVs/Pickups to the market during a time of decline for SUVS?

M

andre1969 · December 2005

with the Panther bodies is their styling. They've actually undergone some significant revisions over the years, but by and large their styling isn't that much different from what it was in 1992.

Some of the notable improvements along the way include a revised rear suspension for 1998. It didn't go independent, but went to something called a Watts linkage, or something like that. I don't know what that means, but it's supposed to be an improvement over the old coil spring setups of the old days. For 2002 they went to a hydroformed frame that was more rigid than the old one which was just multiple parts welded together. They also went to a rack-and-pinion steering setup.

So in many ways, the car is pretty modern. It just looks old! It's a shame that Ford didn't find a way to capitalize on this platform and make a few more spinoffs, like what they did with the Fox (Fairmont) platform from the late 70's. That humble Fairmont spawned everything from Mustangs and T-birds on up to mid-sized LTDs and Marquises, and even the Continental sedan and the Mark VII.

If Ford would go with a fully independent rear suspension for the Panthers, like they did on the RWD T-bird/Cougar from 1989-97, they could then move the gas tank forward and put it under the back seat, where it is on most other cars nowadays. That would take care of the exploding gas tank issue.

lemko · December 2005

...American car manufacturers no longer make American cars - just poor copies of European and Japanese ones. Why buy a copy when you can get an original?

reddogs · December 2005

Wow!, that is a very strong statement, I would put some qualifiers, or define what "poor copies" you are talking about, or at least give some examples as that is a broad paint brush that you are using on the Big 3.

Ford has come quite a ways and made great progress in its latest models. Take a look at the latest Insurance Institute top 10 safest cars as rated in crash tests by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

"The Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego, when equipped with optional side airbags, earned a Gold "Top Safety Pick" award for large cars from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The Audi A6 was given the Silver award for large cars.

The Five Hundred and Montego are corporate "twins," stylistically different versions of the same car.

Vehicles that received Gold awards earned "good" ratings --the best possible -- for front-, side- and rear-impact protection. Vehicles that were rated good for front- and side-impact protection and "acceptable" for rear-impact protection earned Silver awards."

anythngbutgm · December 2005

Kudos to Ford for this. :shades:

nwng · December 2005

cause they came from the s80 platform

lemko · December 2005

...maybe it's not so true today, but most certainly was in the past. Remember the Chevrolet Celebrity Eurosport? It was a little Euro, a little sporty, but not much of either. How about the Plymouth Acclaim? Nobody was going to confuse it with an Accord. The most cynical example was the Cimmaron. I wouldn't dare call it a Cadillac, though some morons decided to taint the once-great Cadillac name with this piece of trash. No sane or sighted person was going to confuse it with a BMW 3-Series or Mercedes 190.

Cadillac is now probably the closest domestic make to European sport sedans though the FWD DTS seems to be the odd man out. Buick is trying to match Lexus and seems to be on its way. I'd dare say the LaCrosse is nicer than any CamCord and the Lucerne on par with the Avalon. The Chevrolet Impala destroys both the Camry and Accord in my opinion.

Ford? Well, the Five Hundred is nice, but it looks like a warmed-over Passat. The Fusion is truly nice and most promising. The Mustang - that is truly an American car and really what I'd want. The Mercury Grand Marquis, Ford Crown Victoria, and Lincoln Town Car are old-school American cars I still find desirable.

Chrysler - they've really come around with the awesome 300-C and Charger. They've got a lot of work to do with their lesser offerings. The Neon SVT still is not a Civic contender. The Sebring and Stratus are antiquated. The Crossfire is nice, but not marketable. The Viper is the closest competition to a Corvette.

nippononly · December 2005

the advent and sales success of the 300 should help Chrysler a lot in selling the new Sebring due out next summer. I think. They just better do a number on it: outstanding looks are a prerequisite from this company, and better than average power (which shouldn't be hard to do given the two main domestic competitors are at 200 hp and 0-60 in the 8-9 second range).

Maybe the Americans should just cancel 4-cylinder engines in their midsizers. With Hyundai coming up fast and the Japanese pretty much dominating that part of the market, it is a waste of time. If the domestics could call the V-6 their base engine, it might skew some business their way. Especially if they could improve the mileage numbers. Sebring could set a precedent in this regard.

andre1969 · December 2005

the standard V-6 route with the Malibu from 2000-2003. I don't know if it helped much or not. I was thinking though, that when they went to a standard 4-cyl and optional V-6 for the '04 Malibu, it would turn off a lot of buyers.

I have a feeling that 4-cyl engines will still be around in Malibu-type cars for awhile yet. They help out with EPA and CAFE averages, even if that doesn't always reflect on the real world. The government doesn't care what kind of mileage YOU get out of your car, just so long as the car on the treadmill in the lab-controlled environment gets good ratinsgs!

I haven't heard much of the upcoming Sebring, but isn't it supposed to be derived from the Mitsu Galant platform? I thought I'd heard that they changed that to the Lancer, but wouldn't that be too small for a Sebring/Stratus type of car?

nippononly · December 2005

the same thing Ford is doing right now with the Focus platform, stretch it to serve the next car class up in size.

So there will be the Lancer platform (although I don't know if that is what they will be using for the Caliber? I think it is) and then the stretched Lancer platform for the Sebring/Stratus.

The little crossover from Mitsu goes on the new platform next year too, doesn't it? And the upcoming car-based Jeep after that?

This would have been the start of a great formula for platform-sharing and cost-saving, but now that Mitsu has been completely cut loose from DCX, I suppose the sharing in this manner will stop after this one, which was already in the cooker when the split happened.

nippononly · December 2005

I have heard many times here that "Americans shop power and drive torque". If this is indeed true, then the domestics could try making high-torque engines standard to woo back some of the buyers.

Of course, I am not sure how true it is, given the number of 4-cylinder Accord and Camry buyers there are every year, but it would certainly be a way for the domestics to offer uniquely American cars.

andre1969 · December 2005

with a 4-cyl Camry or Accord is that they gear them just right, and the transmission works with the engine in such a way that it makes the best of the available hp.

A couple years ago I drove a Dodge Stratus SXT with the 4-cyl. It's a 2.4 DOHC unit with 150 hp, which on paper at least, seems like it should be close to the 4-cyl in the Camry or Accord. However, that Stratus was just a wretched little car when it came to performance, refinement, etc. It sounded like an old tractor motor, and was horribly slow. The Stratus just felt like a cheap, small car that was stretched out to pass as a bigger car.

I think the EPA ratings for the 4-cyl Stratus are like 22/30. Pretty lame when you figure the Camry/Accord are more like 24/34. I think the Malibu's up there, too, although I've heard that in the real world the V-6 Malibu gives up so little in fuel economy that you might as well just go with it.

Even on the Stratus, the 2.7 V-6 doesn't do much worse for economy, EPA-rated at 21/28. What I can't figure out though, is why it was rated 1 mpg better on the highway for the Intrepid, a car that outweighed it by several hundred lb? :confuse:

PF_Flyer · December 2005

Maybe what it will take is NOT hearing bad market reports, which is what we're talking about in the Why does Wall Street hate the domestic automakers? discussion.

Nobody wants to buy ANYTHING that's constantly being talked about as if it's on its deathbed.

nippononly · December 2005

" What I can't figure out though, is why it was rated 1 mpg better on the highway for the Intrepid, a car that outweighed it by several hundred lb?"

Well, it HAS to be gearing, I would think. The next revision is the perfect time for Chrysler to put the Stratus/Sebring back on the map they fell off, what, about four years ago? Or more? Wait, were they ever ON the map? :-P

It's funny that everyone knows what a Malibu is, yet Stratus/Sebring is a no-name when Malibu isn'texactly a vast improvement over a Stratus. It would help though if Chrysler didn't sell like NINETY FIVE PERCENT of the S/S twins to rental fleets.

Which brings me to a separate point: the domestics HAVE to stop selling vast quantities of their overproduced models to rental fleets. It would be better for brand perception if they would just take them out behind the factory and burn them. Might be better for the bottom line too, since most fleet sales are made at a loss.

lemko · December 2005

...that Mopar fans would remember that the Chrysler Sebring used to be the Plymouth Satellite Sebring back in the day. If GM did such a thing we'd have the Buick Malibu.

pony_pirate · December 2005

Last Honda Accord EX I bought, manufactured, btw, in Tenn., had a quarter inch step-off between the body and the driver's door. While the car was still under warranty, i.e., relatively new, the power window in that door failed (went up very slowly), the cable for the heating knob broke (and was improperly repaired), and the passenger door squeaked like mad, which the dealer was unable to repair. Honda is supposedly, at least according to Consumer Reports, one of the most reliable cars made.

carlisimo · December 2005

I think you'd agree that you were unlucky as a Civic buyer. Maybe among the unluckiest 5% (I made that number up).

Of course then the question is... if you had bought a Neon, Focus, or Cavalier, would you have also gotten one of the worst-built 5% of them? (In other words I'm saying the bad luck resided in you rather than the car :P )

Better luck with your next car, whatever it may be.

And maybe a lesson to all: buy a car you'll like even if it doesn't turn out to be reliable!

pony_pirate · December 2005

I bought an Accord EX, fully loaded, not a Civic. I now also own a Mustang GT Premium and so far there have no serious problems (only one very minor problem).

As a 20-year Honda driver, as someone who has friends/relatives with Toyota's, Lexus's, and Acura's (and BMW's and Mercedes's), including Toyota hybrids, I will say Japanese (and German) cars have no soul, none at all. The Mustang incites an emotional response, positive or negative, which the bland Japanese (and German) cars just don't.

I respect, but by no means like, the Porsche. The Vette is a much more beautiful and satisfying machine, even if just a tad inferior in performance.

I used to own a VW fuel-injected fastback and have ridden in lots of Beetles: Impression: mere transportation. The Audi is just a jacked-up VW, as far as I'm concerned, and just as ugly, to boot.

The only good thing I have to say about Mercedes is that it is a solid and heavy car, good for long-distance highway travel, otherwise b-o-r-i-n-g, stodgy (and poorly rated by Consumer Reports for reliability). The sports models are ugly and poor performers.

My first car was a Volvo. What a piece of cr_p!!! (My brother had a similar unhappy time with his.)

The Jag sports car is an overpriced underpreformer, not even worth the consideration, only bought by elderly men with too much money, out to impress the world, hungover with memories of the XKE.

A neighbor has a brand-new Nissan Z. My GT can leave him in the dust, although, I will admit, his Z can probably handle twisty roads a bit better than my GT can.

carlisimo · December 2005

My bad about the Accord. It was probably better than an equally-lemony Grand Am would've been.

As for the Mustang... you have to expect it to be more interesting than an Accord. But try an MR2, a Miata, or a WRX. Probably not your type, but they have 'feeling' in a similar way Mustangs do. Whereas the bland Japanese family cars are way more interesting and fun to drive than the bland American family cars we've seen, before the DCX bunch, and whatever comes off the Mazda6 platform.

pony_pirate · December 2005

I work away from home, so not only get driven to work in a wide variety of cars, but myself drive a wide assortment of rentals once there. I'd rather take a long trip in a Lincoln Towncar than a Mercedes. Yes, the Accord and Camery are probably the most serviceable and durable all-round cars, against which the Malibu or Taurus are no match; but when you're looking at cars for more than mere reliable cost-effective transportation, American cars compete very favorably with foreign cars. Yes, to each his own: Passion for a particular car is a subjective, personal thing, but, sorry, the Miata, WRX, BMW roadster, or Nissan Z, no matter how cleverly "engineered," just don't ring my bell the way the new Mustang or Corvette do. It's like Americans get rock and roll, while the rest of the world imitates it.

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swedishiron1 · December 2005

A big draw back for domestic cars for me is that none of them seem to take rollover protection that seriously. They have caught up in most safety aspects except rollover protection and rear end protection. I dont know of a single domestic vehicle that actually states it has a roll cage. I own a Volvo with 278,000 miles and have had very little problems with it. I just got rid of another one with 340,000 miles on it (it finally burnt a valve - keep in mind i NEVER had the valves adjusted per maintenance schedule). I feel like I get my moneys worth out my Volvo's. I have friends with Fords that put new engines and transmissions in before hitting 100,000 miles. I have never had a Volvo tranny fail and the only engine issue has been a burnt valve on very high mileage ones that admittedly I dont maintain properly.

I am tired of seeing donestics fight againt almost every single proposed safety legislation. Obviously they don't care that much about the safety of their consumers. The gains they have made in safety I think are really driven more by market demand then care for the occupants of their products since they lagged behind for way too long. How many domestic convertibles have a true rollover protection system ?

reddogs · December 2005

Why not just get a M1 Abrams Tank if you feel you need a true rollover protection system? Volvo have very little appeal or any kind of style to make them a choice amoung car buyers, other than that, they are a great car........

Q:When does a Volvo have very little problems?
A:When its towed behind a RV.........

anythngbutgm · December 2005

Where did you get an Accord that was built in Tennessee??? :confuse:

lemmer · December 2005

Based on the sales at GM and Ford, the real "rock 'n roll" American must be a dying breed.

I think the problem is that most people want merely cost-effective transportation for their daily commute. Even if that wasn't true, is a Malibu or Taurus realy more exciting that a Camry or Accord?

anythngbutgm · December 2005

Not an Accord, especially since it is available with a proper gearbox (stick) for both the peppy and smooth 2.4 or muscle car quick 3.0. Both Coupe and Sedan.

Nice. :shades:

andre1969 · December 2005

were pretty strong contenders when they came out for 1995, and in many ways blurred the distinction between the compact and midsized car. Back then the Contour/Mystique were billed as drivers cars with excellent handling, but the Sebring (Cirrus back then) and Stratus more than held their own, with great handling, nice interiors, and a roomy, comfortable interior. They pretty much relegated GM's N-bodies and the Contour Mystique to rental car status. Unfortunately, by the time the 2001 models came around, what needed improving wasn't improved enough (engines, transmissions) and what was already pretty good (interiors) was downgraded, and suddenly they became the darlings of the rental fleets. In the years between 1995 and 2001, the Camry had been redesigned and was about to be again, the Accord had been redesigned, the Altima was about to score a home run the following year, and GM was back in the running with the Malibu. Ford pretty much gave up this segment, letting the Contour/Mystique fade away, although now they're back with the Fusion.

And while the Sebring/Stratus restyle for 2001 just wasn't enough, it's really showed its age of late, in the face of just about every other car in its class. IIRC, the only areas where the Sebring/Stratus still get praise are in above-average handling, and excellent braking. And IMO, I think the cars look good, with their clean, sleek, low-slung styling. But they're just not that comfortable or sophisticated, and just about every other car on the market is better.

I hope they score a big hit with the redesign, although I'm a bit leery of the idea of having a small car stretched out to pass off as a bigger one. You might get the interior room of a bigger car, but often when you do that, you still end up with a car that feels fragile, and can't hide its small car underpinnings. 1993 Imperial, anyone?

Guess I'll just have to wait and see how the end product turns out.

lemmer · December 2005

I rode in a Stratus rental the other day, and it was like a flashback to the early '90s. It made a Taurus look modern and luxurious by comparison. Maybe they should box it up, and give it a hemi.

dino001 · December 2005

Why not just get a M1 Abrams Tank if you feel you need a true rollover protection system?

This kind of attitude exactly got them to the trouble they're now. Car is just a can on four wheels with and as long as it has power windows and leather, it screams $3000 cash back, it will sell.

lemko · December 2005

...he could've got a lemon Accord. Even all-stars can have a bad day. The Accord is made in Ohio. I believe Nissans come from Tennessee. Chrysler let the Stratus/Sebring get too long in the tooth. It looked modern in 1996, but looks old hat now. It looks odd against exciting products like the 300 and Charger. Has anybody seen the cool Challenger concept?

littlez · December 2005

If consumers don't give GM or Ford products a try soon, there will not be a domestic vehicle left to buy. (That kind of scares me.) The current batch of GM and Ford products, though not all of them, are pretty good competition for those who will give them a try.

I happen to like Ford products and just saw a recent statistic I thought was interesting. The F 150, Mustang, Five Hundred/Montego, Freestyle and now Fusion/Milan, Zephyr and Explorer/Mountaineer, the most recent new vehicle (model) launches from Ford have been, for the most part, trouble-free (no major problems).

Could this be the "new" Ford?

veliger · December 2005

A good example is the Chevy Malibu. Not a bad car, although a bit homely, and I never could get used to the numb electric steering that just seemed slow to respond. And they even cleaned it up with the '06 restyle to where I can finally bear to look at it. It gets decent fuel economy, is fairly roomy and comfy, and not a bad performer. But a Camry or Accord just seems to improve on the Malibu in just about every respect, and when comparably equipped, really aren't that much more expensive. Then, throw in the quality reputation and the improved resale value that goes with that, and the Malibu becomes a bit of a hard sell.

I don't know what world you check prices in, but we got a loaded Maxx out the door for around 17K including everything. Take away my 3700 in GM Card rebate and we would still have been under 21K, out the door. A comparably equipped CamCord would have been at least 4 - 5K more, and would not have the versatility of the hatchback. The reality is the Malibu is very competitive with the CamCord, for at least $4K less in actual transaction price.

What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

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