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What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??



  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    And Range Rover is ????.....Did you see the Sport version of RR ??? I can see your point pal, but I do like the vehicle and respect DC for making it. Heck we just gotta test drive one and see for ourselves. ;)

  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,687
    That is probably what people said about the muscle cars in the '60s - a small/mid family sedan with weak brakes and handling is no place for a powerful engine.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    Well thankfully the Jeep has Frisbee size brakes ! ;)

  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,687
    I don't think I would buy one, but I think it is pretty cool.

    It seems really "American" in a good way.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    I can see exactly what you are talking about, and that's why I personally like it. I however wished it went a step further in interior technology and refinement. Regardless it will be a must have for many jeep buyers ;)

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,047
    is really nothing new. A few years ago, before the Hemi came out, Jeep offered a 360 Magnum in the Grand Cherokee, a beast that would launch it from 0-60 in around 7 seconds.

    Just as long as the chassis, wheels, and brakes are upgraded accordingly. And in many cases they are. Many of those old musclcars were bad because you often had to purchase the non-engine upgrades separately. For example, as late as 1973 I think GM offered the GTO and other similar cars with 9.5" drums all around. Now a '73 GTO was down to like 230-250 hp, so it wasn't as brutal as something like a '69 Judge, but a 4000 lb car with a big block using drums that small just scares me. I had a '69 Dart with a slant six, 145 hp (110 net), that weighed just under 3,000 lb, and its brakes weren't much smaller...9" all around.

    My '57 DeSoto has drums all around, and weighs about 4000 lb, but it has 12" drums, and also has dual wheel cylinders up front for more even distribution of the brakes. Chrysler was usually pretty good about brakes though. Often their midsized musclecars got full-sized copcar brakes, a sharp contrast from GM, which would put small Corvair brakes on their midsized musclecars! :surprise:
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,585
    Can't say I ever saw a sport version of the RR. That being said the Jeep has a rather high center of gravity and has other SUV characteristics that means you have to be very careful with it if it can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds. Plus if you do any type of off roading you might have a difficult time with the high amount of HP.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • bhw77bhw77 Posts: 101
    I don't think so - but this a wrong place to discuss it...
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,294
    The 1960s: Mom and Dad, one car:

    1961 Chevrolet Biscayne - wrecked in an accident with a grocery delivery truck in 1970.

    The 1970s: Mom and Dad, several cars:

    1968 AMC Javelin - wrecked in accident in February 1974 when my Dad was on his way to work.

    1970 Ford Torino two-door hardtop - wrecked by hit-and-run drunk driver in a 1972 Pontiac LeMans. The guy owned a local deli and paid for the accident out of his own pocket.

    1965 Pontiac GTO convertible - Purchased by Dad on impulse. Good God, I loved this car! We kids loved riding around in it with the top down. Mom hated the car for she was afraid Dad was cruising for younger women in it! Dad caved into Mom and sold it for peanuts in 1976.

    1972 Ford LTD Country Squire - a bad car. Dad was forever tinkering with this car and it rusted with a vengeance. One night Mom and Dad were all dressed-up to go out to dinner. The beast refused to start and Dad is out there in his good suit fumbling around under the hood while swearing so profusely, he'd make Joe Pesci in "Goodfellas" blush. Dad finally gave up and borrowed Grandpop's ultra-reliable 1974 Chevrolet Impala sedan.

    1978 Ford Granada coupe - The 1972 Ford LTD was a gas pig and Dad was concerned about fuel economy following the 1973-74 fuel crisis. This car was much smaller and had a 250 cid inline six versus the huge 400 V-8 in the LTD. This car turned out to be rather trouble-free aside from an issue with the door windows. The beancounters at Ford thought it was a good idea to save money using cheap plastic brackets with the windows pop-riveted in place. In a few years, these brackets broke and the glass collapsed into the door unable to be raised. Ford owned-up to it and issued proper metal replacements for free. I learned to drive in this car. My younger brother wrecked it in 1984.

    The 1980s: Mom, Dad, Bro, and myself all get cars:

    1981 Ford Thunderbird Town Landau - a mediocre car with a puny 255 cid V-8 that generated more squeaks than thunder. Despite this, the car turned out to be rather trouble-free. It was passed to my sister, brother, and eventually ending up in my hands when my brother bought my 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue in 1993. I sold it for $400 in 1994 as it looked like it had gone through Hades and back.

    1968 Buick Special Deluxe - my first car, purchased for $650 in August 1981 when I was 16. This car began my lifelong love affair with GM as it turned out to be an excellent car that was still running in 1992. I gave this car to my brother when I bought my second car when I was 19.

    1979 Buick Electra Park Avenue - my second car, purchased in May 1984. It was a drop-dead gorgeous, ultra-reliable, very luxurious car that became the unfortunate victim of an accident outside Phoenixville, PA several years later. It was easily one of the best cars I've ever owned. I desperately miss it!

    1987 Dodge Omni - Dad purchased this homely little car for Mom. We kids laughed at this ugly little flivver, but Mom cherished it. This car was cheap to buy, cheap to service, and cheap to repair. It could tackle harsh NE winters that would frighten many modern SUVs. Mom finally sold the car to some local kid after 17 years. He can still be seen driving it to this day! Omni truly did do it all!

    1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic - this was my first new car. I purchased it a few days after graduating from college. I was out of the house and on my own after the purchase of this car. Two years and 62K trouble-free miles later, I replaced it with my 1989 Cadillac Brougham.

    1989 Chrysler LeBaron coupe - Dad had passed the T-Bird to my siblings and replaced it with the LeBaron he bought after one test-drive. Apparently, the dealer offered him such a bargain, Dad couldn't pass it up. This car turned out to be rather trouble-free and was just as easy to maintain as my Mom's Omni. For a while, the family seemed to go through an unusual Mopar period. In addition to the Omni and LeBaron, I had my Chrysler Fifth Avenue and my sister later bought a 1987 LeBaron coupe. Anyway, Dad was able to tow a trailer with the LeBaron from NE Pennsylvania to Starkville, MS when my sister started college at Mississippi State. There was no plroblem despite the car's small 4-cylinder plant.

    The 1990s: Mom, Dad, and Sis have cars:

    1991 Ford Aerostar minivan. The LeBaron was too small, even for a shrinking family. Dad bought a new Aerostar van and took this vehicle through Hades and back. It later suffered a collapsed valve which Dad repaired. He offered to sell me the van a few years ago, but it would've just cluttered the street in front of my place as I have little use for a minivan.

    1987 Chrysler LeBaron coupe - my sister's first car. I know little about this car as my sister was away at college most of the time she owned this car. The only thing I remember is that the headliner fell at some point and her boyfriend tried to put it back up with a spray adhesive that turned the gray fabric yellow! Yuck! My sister currently drives a huge 2003 Ford F-150 as she is a veterinarian for large animals.

    1997 Mercury Mystique - it wasn't long before both my sister and brother were out of the house, on their own and married. The minivan was no longer necessary so Dad got this small white sedan. I recall him telling me he hads some issues with the OEM tires, but that was about it. Dad still drives this car as a beater.

    The 2000s: Mom and Dad on their own:

    2003 Subaru Outback - Once again Dad caves into pressure from Mom. Mom is a victim of Subaru's marketing as she loves actor Paul Hogan. I think she believes the "Crocodile Dundee" character is a real person. She once said, "If Crocodile Dundee can thunder through the Australian wilderness in that car, it must be good!" The car has had several issue with the brakes, something I noticed when I first drove the car after Dad purchased it. They were repaired under warranty and I believe the problem is now solved.

    2004 Chevrolet Aveo - Mom finally retired the Omni. Dad knows this car is really a Daewoo Kalos, but it was dirt cheap. Mom has this thing for these tiny little cars I don't get. So far, I've heard of no problems.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,585
    1987 Dodge Omni

    I had one of those but a 86. Yes it was homely but it was somewhat fun to drive. And you are right it handled the snow like you wouldn't believe, I never got stuck in the snow with that thing.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,047
    bought a brand-new Horizon back in college. Can't remember now if it was an '89 or '90. It was almost totally stripped down, with the only options being an automatic tranny and an AM radio. For being such a stripper though, it had a few nice details. For instance, the cloth-and-vinyl interior was pretty tasteful, and much better than what you'd find in most strippers of that era. It also had an airbag. And a standard 2.2 4-cyl, in an era when many economy cars were still dealing with puny little sub-2.0 engines.

    It wasn't very fast, though. My '69 Dart would blow its doors off, despite only having maybe 14 more hp (although probably around 60 ft-lb or more in the torque dept), an easy 700-800 lb more weight, and the added drain of an a/c belt and a power steering belt.

    I don't know what ultimately happened to it. He got into an accident with it when it was about a year old, and his parents got pissed and took it away from him. He also flunked the U of MD, and moved out to someplace in West Va.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,973
    My dad had a Horizon way back when I was quite small, the very early 80s. He kept it around for several years, especially for use in snow. He never had any real issues with the car that I've heard of, and he still raves about how good it was in the snow. It was replaced with an S-10 Blazer in 1985, a vehicle my dad still laments.
  • oh by the way, what will be the next car?

    currently, thinking the Mazda5, so GM, bring the Zafira over now! Ford bring the SAV concept over. Even better, build them here. Otherwise, we are going to the Japanese again since no domestic manufactures an MPV.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    They claim better quality, then it should not cost them to up their warranty.

    The longer the warranty, the costlier it is for the manufacturer, unless the product is perfect and never fails.
  • reddogsreddogs Posts: 353
    Paranoia... take a look at anything bigger than a Bic pen and see where it is made, we have lost a huge size of our manufacturing base and are turning into a consumer nation that produces nothing except website designers. Americans wont take a job doing manual work yet they complain when Mexicans come in and do it, Americans wont skip their coffee breaks or water cooler time while Chinese workers come in on weekends and national holidays, or they waste their time waiting on the 'blue dot' to win them the lottery. We are being suppassed on every level and are starting to realize the problems created by it, and yet if anyone points it out they suffer from Paranoia....
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,294
    ...bit Hyundai-Kia in the butt or do most original owners get the cars repo'ed before warranty work is required?
  • Warranties are signals of the underlying quality of a car. Hyundai had to get out of the doghouse by signaling that their cars were of sufficient quality. To do so, they had to pay a "warranty premium" (i.e., not just matching the warranties of competitors, but to outbid them to offset the perception that there cars are inferior).

    Domestics have the same problem in direct competition with the Japanese who they are losing market share to. So domestics should pay the warranty premium as well. It is not rocket sign, just the basics of the economics of assymetric information.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    I had an '83 Plymouth Horizon. Front seats weren't bad, comfort-wise. The interior wasn't too bad, with a couple of mismatched panels. The rear seat was terribly uncomfortable and would only fold down as a single unit - no rear split.

    Exterior - the paint was incredibly fragile and the front end of the car looked like it had been hit with a couple of rounds of bird shot from a shotgun. The paint was terribly chipped along any front edge (hood, fenders, wheelwells). It developed a rust hole at the base of the driver's side A pillar, which really made me question the structural integrity after about five years.

    The timing belt broke before it's scheduled replacement time/mileage, but at least the 2.2 engine was a non-interference design, so no harm was done.

    The real issue with that car was the front brake system. It would go through pads like you wouldn't believe. The problem was a poorly desinged caliper that would allow the piston to cock, essentially locking the front pads against the disc. I had the calipers replaced a number of times, to no avail. You could not get more than 15,000 miles out of the front brakes.

    But even with all of that, I still nursed that car to it's tenth birthday and 150,000 miles (it was on life support pretty much for the last three years of it's life, until I finally signed a "DNR" statement!).

    I compare this to a another hatchback we bought in 1987 - a VW Golf. Front seats were very comfortable, and I could sit in the backseat for hours without complaint. Plus the rear seat had a split feature which made it much more flexible.

    The body panels were very well matched and showed no rust until after the car had been in two significant accidents (the repair of both cost just under the "totalled" value of the car). The replacement panels rusted - both were salvage parts. Don't know why.

    The paint on the car was well-executed from the factory (Westmoreland, PA).

    The brakes lasted 67,000 miles before any pads or linings were replaced.

    Downside was the radiator had to be replaced due to leakage. Heater core was replaced under a recall (but was not leaking).

    Performance was better than the Horizon, but I could chalk that up to the Horizon being an automatic and the Golf being a 5 speed.

    We got 120,000 miles out of it before a third accident (none were our fault) finally gave it a premature death.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    In the past few pages I have heard about somebody getting a repaired filled 03 Accord and a 03 Lemon Ford Expedition. The Accord is a first year model as was the Expedition I believe. Also, any manufacturer can build a lemon. My Mom had a Pontiac that was a lemon and yet she has bought 3 other Pontiacs after that lemon. Honda can build a lemon, VW can build a lemon and any manufacturer can build a lemon. On a side note since the 03 redesign the Expedition is rated horribly by Consumer Reports. The Previous Expedition had average reliability mostly in CR's reliability ratings.

    I am mostly a Honda and Mazda guy. I just don't like the way Gm cars look(with some exceptions.) In the mid to late 90's Ford made styling mistakes with the 96 Tarus and the mid 90's Escort(I'm not sure what year that Escort came out however.) They are getting better however with their styling of late. I should also note I seen a poster with a 2000 Focus with brake problems on this board. That was a first year model too. However I have seen the Focus's reliability ratings on the trouble spot for "brakes" and its still under average but overall buid quality has improved. Consumer Reports says build quality on the Focus has improved since the 00 model and they even rated it over the Mazda 3, 01-05 Civic, and Toyota Corolla however the 2006 Civic wasn;t tested in CR's last issue to top the Focus yet.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,973
    I grew up in a dry arid area that had more snow than rain, maybe that helped preserve the car.

    For a 5 or 7 year old the backseat seemed fine LOL. I remember it was a lowline car, with highback vinyl bucket seats and an AM radio, stick of course. He still talks fondly about it, and I remember he'd drive it at what seemed very fast - 75 or 80, which was probably stretching it for such a car. Before he bought the Blazer my dad test drove a more luxurious model - an Omni, which was probably new at the time. I remember it was silver with a burgundy velour interior, and I believe it was an automatic. But the Blazer seemed cool and trendy to him, so he chose it...and it rusted and fell apart within 5 years. That was the last GM car he owned.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,585
    oh by the way, what will be the next car?

    Well for us the next car will be the wifes (Lord willing and the creek don't rise). She wants a rag top so it will most likely be a Mustang (most likely) or a Sebring, of course she wants to see what the Tiburon convertible will be like.

    As for me I like the Sonata and the Milan for a replacement, but others may make the short list if I look around a bit.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "Even some of the Honda technicians have openly admitted the major quality differences between the Japanese and US-built Hondas."

    I have an 02 Acura CL with no problems so I don;t notice any bad build quality of a car that Honda made in the US. In my opinion cars built in Japan you can get a bad built a car. Don't get me wrong cars built in Japan like Mazda's and Lexus's are pretty reliable but a Toyota or Honda built in the US is built pretty good too.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    You could crank up the Horizons, no doubt. Back in the mid-eighties, I did a run across a large section of Pennsylvania in 4.5 hours in that car when one of my parents was hospitalized, on trip that normally took closer to 6 hours! The speedometer only went up to 85 and I was well above that at times, based on how long I could coast before the needle dropped from the "buried" position. Gotta love a good overhead cam engine for high speed runs. I had a CB radio and worked it constantly the entire trip. Probably didn't hurt that I was in such a non-descript vehicle, either.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,585
    My Omni pretty much did the same thing, the needle would actually go all the way around past the odometer. More than once I had it on 5 or 10 for the second time. It seemed to do pretty good at high speeds for an econobox.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    bit Hyundai-Kia in the butt

    Nope. In fact, Hyundai got a nice payout from their warranty fund last year. One thing that doesn't get much attention is that auto warranties in the US have to be guaranteed by a separate, dedicated cash fund based on some sort of formula (probably past warranty claims). That cash fund requirement, and the loss of extended-warranty sales, is probably what keeps GM warranties so timid.
  • went to a Hyundai/Pontiac dealer last week to check out the Azera. In the back lot i noticed that 90% of all the stock were Hyundai w/ only about 10% Pontiacs... Maybe its time to redesign the Grand Prix.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    What did you think of the Azera?
  • gmfangmfan Posts: 188
    I rented a Ford Focus while in Orlando, and that was a good little car. It did not shift harsh like a lot of four cylinder vehicles have done in the past, torque was good meaning no revving needed to get in moving. Not bad. I never did floor it (yes, I know you are supposed to run rentals), so I don't know how the drivetrain would act under heavy acceleration.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Notice that your folks switched to foreign vehicles (Subaru, Aveo). What do they say it would take to get them back into a real American cars again? What kinds of American cars do you think that they are interested in?
This discussion has been closed.