What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

snakeweasel · December 2005

1987 Dodge Omni

I had one of those but a 86. Yes it was homely but it was somewhat fun to drive. And you are right it handled the snow like you wouldn't believe, I never got stuck in the snow with that thing.

andre1969 · December 2005

bought a brand-new Horizon back in college. Can't remember now if it was an '89 or '90. It was almost totally stripped down, with the only options being an automatic tranny and an AM radio. For being such a stripper though, it had a few nice details. For instance, the cloth-and-vinyl interior was pretty tasteful, and much better than what you'd find in most strippers of that era. It also had an airbag. And a standard 2.2 4-cyl, in an era when many economy cars were still dealing with puny little sub-2.0 engines.

It wasn't very fast, though. My '69 Dart would blow its doors off, despite only having maybe 14 more hp (although probably around 60 ft-lb or more in the torque dept), an easy 700-800 lb more weight, and the added drain of an a/c belt and a power steering belt.

I don't know what ultimately happened to it. He got into an accident with it when it was about a year old, and his parents got pissed and took it away from him. He also flunked the U of MD, and moved out to someplace in West Va.

fintail · December 2005

My dad had a Horizon way back when I was quite small, the very early 80s. He kept it around for several years, especially for use in snow. He never had any real issues with the car that I've heard of, and he still raves about how good it was in the snow. It was replaced with an S-10 Blazer in 1985, a vehicle my dad still laments.

newowner1 · December 2005

oh by the way, what will be the next car?

currently, thinking the Mazda5, so GM, bring the Zafira over now! Ford bring the SAV concept over. Even better, build them here. Otherwise, we are going to the Japanese again since no domestic manufactures an MPV.

mariner7 · December 2005

They claim better quality, then it should not cost them to up their warranty.

The longer the warranty, the costlier it is for the manufacturer, unless the product is perfect and never fails.

reddogs · December 2005

Paranoia... take a look at anything bigger than a Bic pen and see where it is made, we have lost a huge size of our manufacturing base and are turning into a consumer nation that produces nothing except website designers. Americans wont take a job doing manual work yet they complain when Mexicans come in and do it, Americans wont skip their coffee breaks or water cooler time while Chinese workers come in on weekends and national holidays, or they waste their time waiting on the 'blue dot' to win them the lottery. We are being suppassed on every level and are starting to realize the problems created by it, and yet if anyone points it out they suffer from Paranoia....

lemko · December 2005

...bit Hyundai-Kia in the butt or do most original owners get the cars repo'ed before warranty work is required?

newowner1 · December 2005

Warranties are signals of the underlying quality of a car. Hyundai had to get out of the doghouse by signaling that their cars were of sufficient quality. To do so, they had to pay a "warranty premium" (i.e., not just matching the warranties of competitors, but to outbid them to offset the perception that there cars are inferior).

Domestics have the same problem in direct competition with the Japanese who they are losing market share to. So domestics should pay the warranty premium as well. It is not rocket sign, just the basics of the economics of assymetric information.

altair4 · December 2005

I had an '83 Plymouth Horizon. Front seats weren't bad, comfort-wise. The interior wasn't too bad, with a couple of mismatched panels. The rear seat was terribly uncomfortable and would only fold down as a single unit - no rear split.

Exterior - the paint was incredibly fragile and the front end of the car looked like it had been hit with a couple of rounds of bird shot from a shotgun. The paint was terribly chipped along any front edge (hood, fenders, wheelwells). It developed a rust hole at the base of the driver's side A pillar, which really made me question the structural integrity after about five years.

The timing belt broke before it's scheduled replacement time/mileage, but at least the 2.2 engine was a non-interference design, so no harm was done.

The real issue with that car was the front brake system. It would go through pads like you wouldn't believe. The problem was a poorly desinged caliper that would allow the piston to cock, essentially locking the front pads against the disc. I had the calipers replaced a number of times, to no avail. You could not get more than 15,000 miles out of the front brakes.

But even with all of that, I still nursed that car to it's tenth birthday and 150,000 miles (it was on life support pretty much for the last three years of it's life, until I finally signed a "DNR" statement!).

I compare this to a another hatchback we bought in 1987 - a VW Golf. Front seats were very comfortable, and I could sit in the backseat for hours without complaint. Plus the rear seat had a split feature which made it much more flexible.

The body panels were very well matched and showed no rust until after the car had been in two significant accidents (the repair of both cost just under the "totalled" value of the car). The replacement panels rusted - both were salvage parts. Don't know why.

The paint on the car was well-executed from the factory (Westmoreland, PA).

The brakes lasted 67,000 miles before any pads or linings were replaced.

Downside was the radiator had to be replaced due to leakage. Heater core was replaced under a recall (but was not leaking).

Performance was better than the Horizon, but I could chalk that up to the Horizon being an automatic and the Golf being a 5 speed.

We got 120,000 miles out of it before a third accident (none were our fault) finally gave it a premature death.

carguy58 · December 2005

In the past few pages I have heard about somebody getting a repaired filled 03 Accord and a 03 Lemon Ford Expedition. The Accord is a first year model as was the Expedition I believe. Also, any manufacturer can build a lemon. My Mom had a Pontiac that was a lemon and yet she has bought 3 other Pontiacs after that lemon. Honda can build a lemon, VW can build a lemon and any manufacturer can build a lemon. On a side note since the 03 redesign the Expedition is rated horribly by Consumer Reports. The Previous Expedition had average reliability mostly in CR's reliability ratings.

I am mostly a Honda and Mazda guy. I just don't like the way Gm cars look(with some exceptions.) In the mid to late 90's Ford made styling mistakes with the 96 Tarus and the mid 90's Escort(I'm not sure what year that Escort came out however.) They are getting better however with their styling of late. I should also note I seen a poster with a 2000 Focus with brake problems on this board. That was a first year model too. However I have seen the Focus's reliability ratings on the trouble spot for "brakes" and its still under average but overall buid quality has improved. Consumer Reports says build quality on the Focus has improved since the 00 model and they even rated it over the Mazda 3, 01-05 Civic, and Toyota Corolla however the 2006 Civic wasn;t tested in CR's last issue to top the Focus yet.

fintail · December 2005

I grew up in a dry arid area that had more snow than rain, maybe that helped preserve the car.

For a 5 or 7 year old the backseat seemed fine LOL. I remember it was a lowline car, with highback vinyl bucket seats and an AM radio, stick of course. He still talks fondly about it, and I remember he'd drive it at what seemed very fast - 75 or 80, which was probably stretching it for such a car. Before he bought the Blazer my dad test drove a more luxurious model - an Omni, which was probably new at the time. I remember it was silver with a burgundy velour interior, and I believe it was an automatic. But the Blazer seemed cool and trendy to him, so he chose it...and it rusted and fell apart within 5 years. That was the last GM car he owned.

snakeweasel · December 2005

oh by the way, what will be the next car?

Well for us the next car will be the wifes (Lord willing and the creek don't rise). She wants a rag top so it will most likely be a Mustang (most likely) or a Sebring, of course she wants to see what the Tiburon convertible will be like.

As for me I like the Sonata and the Milan for a replacement, but others may make the short list if I look around a bit.

carguy58 · December 2005

"Even some of the Honda technicians have openly admitted the major quality differences between the Japanese and US-built Hondas."

I have an 02 Acura CL with no problems so I don;t notice any bad build quality of a car that Honda made in the US. In my opinion cars built in Japan you can get a bad built a car. Don't get me wrong cars built in Japan like Mazda's and Lexus's are pretty reliable but a Toyota or Honda built in the US is built pretty good too.

altair4 · December 2005

You could crank up the Horizons, no doubt. Back in the mid-eighties, I did a run across a large section of Pennsylvania in 4.5 hours in that car when one of my parents was hospitalized, on trip that normally took closer to 6 hours! The speedometer only went up to 85 and I was well above that at times, based on how long I could coast before the needle dropped from the "buried" position. Gotta love a good overhead cam engine for high speed runs. I had a CB radio and worked it constantly the entire trip. Probably didn't hurt that I was in such a non-descript vehicle, either.

snakeweasel · December 2005

My Omni pretty much did the same thing, the needle would actually go all the way around past the odometer. More than once I had it on 5 or 10 for the second time. It seemed to do pretty good at high speeds for an econobox.

bumpy · December 2005

bit Hyundai-Kia in the butt

Nope. In fact, Hyundai got a nice payout from their warranty fund last year. One thing that doesn't get much attention is that auto warranties in the US have to be guaranteed by a separate, dedicated cash fund based on some sort of formula (probably past warranty claims). That cash fund requirement, and the loss of extended-warranty sales, is probably what keeps GM warranties so timid.

inajoong · December 2005

went to a Hyundai/Pontiac dealer last week to check out the Azera. In the back lot i noticed that 90% of all the stock were Hyundai w/ only about 10% Pontiacs... Maybe its time to redesign the Grand Prix.

altair4 · December 2005

What did you think of the Azera?

gmfan · December 2005

I rented a Ford Focus while in Orlando, and that was a good little car. It did not shift harsh like a lot of four cylinder vehicles have done in the past, torque was good meaning no revving needed to get in moving. Not bad. I never did floor it (yes, I know you are supposed to run rentals), so I don't know how the drivetrain would act under heavy acceleration.

xrunner2 · December 2005

Notice that your folks switched to foreign vehicles (Subaru, Aveo). What do they say it would take to get them back into a real American cars again? What kinds of American cars do you think that they are interested in?

euphonium · December 2005

Rent and view:

"Pearl Harbor" and "The Longest Day" or "Bataan"

ontop · December 2005

Hey - I test drove the Azera over the weekend. Don't see what the big is with this car. Nice enough but it wasn't anything special. Maybe if I could have it for the weekend and give it a good workout it would grow on me. But...

I came away from the test drive realizing the Sonata was the better Hyundai for the $. Same room up front, probably just as quick, better gas mileage, and REBATES !

lemko · December 2005

My Dad would probably be interested in a Ford Fusion or the Five Hundred. I always thought he wanted a F-150 truck, but is worried about the fuel economy. He really isn't too happy with the Subaru. My mother has no preference. She will take anything as long as it is small, cheap, and has four wheels. She's one of the few people who thought the AMC Pacer was a great car.

fljoslin · December 2005

Don't get me wrong cars built in Japan like Mazda's and Lexus's are pretty reliable but a Toyota or Honda built in the US is built pretty good too.
When I got married my wife owned a 1990 Mazda Protege LX. It was fun to drive, but junk. I assume that it was built in Japan. Had to replace the radiator and window regulator very early on and at least one axle. Had other power window issues and a variety of other problems. The final straw was a rear caliper locking up. I was just about to get on the Freeway and noticed that as I shifted gears (5 speed) the car slowed down even though I was going down a hill. I pulled into a parking lot to see what was going on and the passenger rear wheel was red hot. I jacked up the car and pulled the wheel off, but could not get the rotor to turn. The car was undriveable. Got a 70 mile tow home on a flat bed tow truck and had to give the Mazda gas to drive it off the tilted bed. I wonder what would have happened if I had pulled onto the freeway instead of checking? To add insult to injury, the car was new enough that most of the parts had to come from Mazda and were very pricey. The caliper was after market, but was over $100 in 1994.

nwng · December 2005

that would only disuade me from buying mitsubishis :P

aw shoot, I watched Saving Private Ryan the other day, should i dump my boxter AND my 745iL too?

altair4 · December 2005

I had a '92 Protege LX. My wife still misses that car. Ran it for 10 years and 160,000 miles before I gave it to my brother-in-law who ran it another 15,000. Slow leaking radiator (B-I-L never checked anything under the hood) resulted in a overheat and warped head. Great little car that handled well and never left us stranded.

snakeweasel · December 2005

Maybe Southerners can watch "Glory" or "Gettysburg" and not buy anything from Detroit. Or maybe Northerners could watch those movies and not buy anything made in the south.

asafonov · December 2005

I read an article by Joel Spolsky, a software wiz/enterpreneur, that I think is relevant to the question on the thread:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/11/18.html

Answering the question why movie theaters charge the same price no matter how popular or unpopular a movie is, he writes,

"...pricing sends a signal. People have come to believe that you get what you pay for. If you lowered the price of a movie, people would immediately infer from the low price that it's a crappy movie and they wouldn't go see it. If you had different prices for movies, the $4 movies would have a lot less customers than they get anyway. The entertainment industry has to maintain a straight face and tell you that Gigli or Battlefield Earth are every bit as valuable as Wedding Crashers or Star Wars or nobody will go see them."

I believe that the signals that car shoppers were/are getting are (1) many/most domestic cars are inferior because manufacturers and dealers are so desperate to push them, and (2) some brands and models (BMWs, TL come to mind) are sold as sticker so must be really awesome vehicles.

inajoong · December 2005

I haven't test driven it yet, but i was able to compare it to a Buick Luscerne, as it was sitting side by side. Azera at 30k and the Buick at 40k, there wasn't that much difference. The Hyundai actually has better standard features and cooler toys(rear sun shade, mass LED tail lights, better curves). Let's just say that the Buick is not worth 10k more. In fact, i think the Hyundai is a better car period.

As far as Sonata being better than the Azera $ for $, I agree, but then so is the Camry vs Avalon and the LaCrosse vs Lucerene. You're just paying for a little more room and a litte more prestige.

inajoong · December 2005

go check out the azera forum. ther are a few who have bought it.

blueguydotcom · December 2005

believe that the signals that car shoppers were/are getting are (1) many/most domestic cars are inferior because manufacturers and dealers are so desperate to push them, and (2) some brands and models (BMWs, TL come to mind) are sold as sticker so must be really awesome vehicles.

On what planet is a TL or a 3 sold at sticker? BMWs go for $500-1k over invoice. Same for TLs.

ontop · December 2005

TLs here in the good ole Southeast are going for about $2K under invoice. About to buy one. Considered the 330 but @ invoice is about $10K more than the TL. I still got kids in braces and a wife finding herself by going back to school (ye haw).

Gotta have some sanity and I think the TL will rescue me from the looming wrist slash.

I don't think Acura is desperate....

calidave · December 2005

Would GM sell more cars if they offered "Factory Delivery"??? (like the Euro companies do)

gtee · December 2005

Of course you are free to think all Fords are crap, just as my friend will probably never trust Honda again. But, I think this would be an enormous generalization and short-sighted of either of you.

I don't think that all Fords are crap. I simply related my experience with Ford Expedition that I own. There are many people here claim that the quality of domestics are just as good as imports. I simply told my story about a crappy 2003 Expedition that I have.

Ford Expeditions made before 2003 had average reliability according to Consumer Report. After the redesign the reliability went to way below average. I had a 1997 model that was great. I think that there is no excuse for taking a proven design and changing it to make it worst.

I also can see how it happened. Jacques Nasser wanted to move Ford products up market. Something like what Mr. Piech wanted to do at VW. The 2003 Expedition had Independent Rear Suspension made from Aluminium instead of solid rear axle of prior model. The 4.6l engine block was made from Aluminium instead of iron saving 60lb in a 5400 lb vehicle. All of these changes made Expedition more expensive to build. When Ford realized that they could not charge more for it, they decided to cut costs were they could.

One of the best cost cutting moves was to produce seat frames from unpainted steel saving $5 per car. Now every engineer worth his/her salary knows that raw steel will rust. So seat frames started to rust and Ford had to replace each one. It cost Ford about $500 per car to replace seat frames with painted ones. Imagine you spend $45k on Lincoln Navigator and 6 months later the seats inside the truck start to rust. That gives you a nice fuzzy feeling about the quality of the car that you just purchased.

Bad reliability also reflects in resale value of a car. You can look at Ford Expedition vs Toyota Sequoia. In 2003 Ford Expedition EB cost the same as Toyota Sequoia SR5. They were both about $30k after all rebates and incentives. I know because I priced both of them when I was buying the truck. After three years Toyota SR5 is worth at trade in at least $19K or 63% of purchase price. Ford Expedition is worth about $15.6K or 52% of purchase price.

I want to be patriotic and every thing but not when it costs me more then $3K and endless trips to the Ford dealers. So this year I decided to show my patriotism in a different way. I purchased a bunch of Chinese made fire works and had a great 4th of July party. Now that is true patriotism.

gtee · December 2005

You want to go to Flint Michigan or Pontiac Michigan to pick up your car?

1487 · December 2005

The reasoning I see on here gets worse and worse as time goes on. Now my understanding is that people who dont blindly worship at the altar of the imports are detroit locals who love the UAW and the Big 2.5. That is beloney. I can tell that the majority of the arguments made here came straight from the pages of some uninformed media source. I for one, dont live near detroit, nor am I connected to the domestic auto industry. I also am college educated for those who believe only uneducated people consider non-import vehicles.

The notion that Toyota was focusing on hybrids while stupid Detroit was worrying about trucks is crap. Toyota has been beefing up its truck lineup over the last few years and before the run up in gas prices people were saying Toyota/Nissan were poised to end the Big 3s dominance in the truck market. Once the prices went up everyone forgot about the Sequoia, Armada, Tundra, 4Runner, PAthfinder, Pilot, etc. and declared tha "old, slow" detroit was focusing on has been trucks while ignoring the huge hybrid market. Toyota and Honda have innovated in this segment, and they deserve credit for doing so. That said, it's silly to act like Toyota knew oil prices would double in a one year span. If they knew that they wouldnt have spent hundred of millions developing a new V8 pickup to go head to head with the domestic trucks. Toyota happened to be in the right place at the right time and they are benefitting from that. In the 90s all of the Japanese missed the boat on SUVs and no one had much to say about it, nor did anyone in the press give props to GM and Ford for anticipating and cashing in on the SUV craze. Matter of fact, Toyota and Nissan just got their complete lineups in showrooms shortly before the big declines began for large body on frame SUvs. Many companies miss trends and arrive late to the party. The Germans were late to the "quality counts" party and the Japanese and Germans were late to the SUV party. The Germans are even later to the hybrid party and they have just recently acknowledged that they need to embrace the technology in America to stay competitive.

Another thing I dont get is why so many here are concerned about the way vehicles are marketed. In my opinion Honda and Toyota have some of the lamest ads on the market. Not that GM or Ford do much better, but I personally dont look to buy vehicles based on who has the best TV commercials. With all the information available in mags and on the net, I dont see why people would need to base their decisions on ads.

Back to innovation, I have yet to see any convincing arguments for the notion that the Japanese lead the industry in innovations. Comments like "they make reliable cars" or "they lead in customer satisfaction" are cute, but dont address the point. I am talking about true innovation meaning being first to market with clever ideas and technology. I give them hybrids, VTEC (maybe) and a few other things. As I said before, they dont lead styling, safety, interior innovation, 6 speed (or greater) transmissions or performance in most categories.

Another thing I am tired of reading about is the records sales of Honda and Toyota. The suggestion seems to be those record sales indicate that the big 3 are going under as ToyoHonda thrive. Never mentioned is the fact that Honda, Nissan and Toyota are constantly expanding their lineups into new segments. 10 years ago, none of these companies had real trucks or SUvs in their lineups and Honda/Nissan didnt have pickups. The more segments you enter the higher your sales are going to be, it's commons sense. When you hear about these year over year increases, it's important to remember those increases are not coming with the same number of vehicles as the year before. Toyota is going to keep adding models until they begin to cannibalizing their own sales just like GM and Ford. It may take a while to get to that point, but it's inevitable. It's already started with the 2007 camry/Avalon/Es330.

tagman · December 2005

Often, a person will not buy an American car because their whole view of American in general is negative enough to not buy a domestic car. Innovation is not always seen as American anymore. Kodak film is now replaced, in part, by Fuji film. Kodak cameras are now replaced by Sony cameras. RCA and Zenith televisions are now replaced by Sony, Hitachi, Toshiba, Fujitsu, and Mitsubishi, Panasonic, and Samsung televisions. Many general items we use in our daily lives are now made in Asia, often China now, but still an Asian import. The county's political history also affects the view of America. Our health system is getting challenged, and our roads and highways are in terrible shape. Our standings in the world with regards to education are slipping, and even our jobs are being sent beyond our borders by big business. There is a perception that "foreign" is sometimes cheaper and better-built. There is a percieved "value". To buy an American car, for many is to buy something that represents America itself, and America looks to many people I'm afraid, as a country that is somehow compromised . . . not at its peak, perhaps. America is challenged and dealing with issues. I am not saying that these are wrong, but I am saying that it affects people's perceptions of America and, therefore, their perceptions of American cars.

blueguydotcom · December 2005

Gotta admit, this is partially my bias against getting an American car.

1. The cars aren't fun to drive- never driven an American car and thought "wow, what a blast."
2. They don't have decent roadfeel - isolated and numb, wallowing in corners and swallowing road irregularities with no feedback seems to be how they're designed.
3. They can't seem to marry sport and luxury perfectly - this is challenging for most makes.
4. They're American and thus designed for Americans - wide seats, cupholders, oversized sheetmetal, too much heft - essentially what the people want. This is becoming an issue with Japanese cars too as they're designing more and more for typical American desires.

No offense intended but I live and own property in the USA because my family is here. I'm not here out of any loyalty to the government or its people.

I will reiterate the only way to get buyers again:

1. Pick a segment and build a better car or a car near on par with the segment leaders.
2. Price it with a MSRP several K lower (compacts 3k, midsize 4-6k, entry lux 6-8k, luxury 10-15k) than that segment's leader.
3. Do not discount below invoice unless the segment leader does too.

Thus a competitor to a Honda Accord EX V6 should offer the same or better performance, ride, handling, build quality, interior materials and sell for 22-23k MSRP.

A Civic competitor should be loaded at 16-17k MSRP.

A 325i competitor should start at 26k with tons of features and end up loaded (navi, radar/laser cruise, comfort access, active steer) at 33-34k. The 330i competitor should top at maybe 36-37k.

Etc, etc.

lemko · December 2005

...all this self-hating is self-destructive. It's as if the whole country has been suffering from low self-esteem since the early 1970s. I still love America and its products. I think the baby-boomers did all this with their anti-establishment bull and essentially screwed my generation. "Ewww! A GM car! That's so establishment, man! Buy a VW or Toyota and be cool like me!"

kdhspyder · December 2005

In the 90s all of the Japanese missed the boat on SUVs and no one had much to say about it, nor did anyone in the press give props to GM and Ford for anticipating and cashing in on the SUV craze. Matter of fact, Toyota and Nissan just got their complete lineups in showrooms shortly before the big declines began for large body on frame SUvs

You actually missed the key point of my prior message. The absence of the Japanese from the Big Rig market through the 80's and 90's was a negotiated agreement back in the early 80's. It expired in 2002 or 2003.

In my opinion Honda and Toyota have some of the lamest ads on the market.

Marketing as you know from your college education is more than just ads. Marketing is identifying a buyer, making a product that buyer might want, pricing it for that buyer, and then getting the message out in the form of ads. The Big 2+C have done a horrible job of this lately, with the possible exception of a couple of autos and their truck business. Their marketing now consists of 'Please take it at any price' or 'Wouldnt it be great if we were all back in the 60's with these cars?'

Toyota is going to keep adding models until they begin to cannibalizing their own sales just like GM and Ford. It may take a while to get to that point, but it's inevitable. It's already started with the 2007 camry/Avalon/Es330.

I generally agree with your statement here as all busineses get to a point where growth is much more difficult or the given market has matured. Then .. well India and China come to mind .. where demand could be 10-20 times greater than it is here for the next 50-100 years.

The highlighted part of your statement though goes back to marketing. There is a natural progression in these three vehicles that is very coordinated and supportive. A product line to be solid throughout.

2007 Camry - As always it will attract 400000+ buyers but only as a 4c - plus a few buyers for the V6. This is the marketing I'm speaking about. The normal Camry buyer will never, ever consider the 3.5L V6.
2006 Avalon - However there are a many loyal Avy owners and potential conquest sales from Buick, Chevy and Ford that will consider the new Avalon. These are generally economy buyers of luxury vehicles. The Lexus/BMW/Acura/Caddy label is too snooty.
Lexus ES - OTOH there is a group of buyers who'd never set foot in a Toyota store. 'What could they have that I'd possibly want? Besides I can get a Lexus for a few thousand more.'

A more likely scenario is that there might be a different vehicle for each 10% difference in buying budget; similar vehiclea perhaps but enough differentiation not to get blurred. The Scions are in no way similar to the Corolla/Matrix which are much smaller than the Camry/RAV which are not as luxurious as the Avalon/Highlander.. then you're into the Lexus line( see above about the Lexus vs Toyota buyer ).

A product tailored for each segment which addresses the needs and desires of each group. This is the heart of marketing. Not ads.

kdhspyder · December 2005

Yep times change.
Whether one likes it or not, it is one world now. GE, Microsoft, GM all the large corporations recognize it and accept it. Why rail against it and wish for times past when things were different. They are not going to go back. Life goes on. Wishing to return to the past is like screaming for the wind to stop.

Accept, adapt and move on. We are actually very strong because we do adapt. If we stand still we will be run over by the new Monsters of Capitalism - India and China.

imidazol97 · December 2005

>world with regards to education are slipping

Now that sounds like something from a media guru. What basis do you have for judging the education? We have more and more people attending colleges and community tech schools for advanced training than ever before. That's even to a degree where it's a fault. So how is the education level less?

callmedrfill · December 2005

And your point is? :confuse:

Are you mad because the Japanese HAVE EARNED a better perception than the Big 3? I'm guessing that's your point.

Since the early 70's oil embargo, the US has actually nailed the marketplace's wants and needs 4 times. In 30+ years! They are:

1. The minivan
2. 1986 Ford Taurus
3. The 1990 Ford Exploder
4. Chrysler 300C

Notice how GM is not represented!

Otherwise, they have rested on there laurels, or regressed amid viable competition.

My question to you, 1487, is what has the Big3 done with all the money they made in the SUV-era? They DOMINATED (except for luxury SUV's, like the RX330) the last 15 years, and now we get Cobalts, Focus, and Colorados as our ROI?

Outside of a few homeruns, the US has done nothing for the marketplace, unless you count losing market share, making truly forgettable products, and moving with glacier-like speed to any changes in the industry.

GM has NO excuses WITH 6 DIFFERNT BRANDS to work with...

Wait a minute!!! :mad:

I just wrote this post last week!! :mad:

Alright, new rule. When someone writes an accurate, poignant post for this forum, read it. Then advance the forum off of that.

Ok, 1487? Read the recent posts before filibustering with more anti-Japan sentiment.

You could tell us what the US has done FOR the industry in the last 30 years?

That post would be both short and sweet

, I mean.....interesting.

DrFill

bumpy · December 2005

GM does offer factory delivery for the Corvette, but that's about the only thing they have worth making a road trip for. Do you really want to go to Ohio just to get a Cobalt?

ergo · December 2005

I think people should be required to test drive "the competition". If this would happen, the market would change significantly. It would respond to buyers wants.

Instead, most people just nameplate shop. It's a travesty.

Ask you friends and family...most never test drove the rest of the vehicles in their class.

blueguydotcom · December 2005

I know they test drove the japanese, european and if possible korean nameplates. But all of the people I've helped buy - over 8 people in two years - refused to even test American cars.

kdhspyder · December 2005

Another thing I am tired of reading about is the records sales of Honda and Toyota. The suggestion seems to be those record sales indicate that the big 3 are going under as ToyoHonda thrive. Never mentioned is the fact that Honda, Nissan and Toyota are constantly expanding their lineups into new segments. 10 years ago, none of these companies had real trucks or SUvs in their lineups and Honda/Nissan didnt have pickups. The more segments you enter the higher your sales are going to be, it's commons sense. When you hear about these year over year increases, it's important to remember those increases are not coming with the same number of vehicles as the year before.

Your facts are correct except one little detail. It's nearly a zero sum game. The additonal vehicles that are creating record numbers month over month are coming from someone else's pocket. That's why it's significant. 200000 additional midsized vehicles will enter the market this year at bargain basement prices with top-of-the-line features. Where will these 'new' buyers come from and who would have gotten them if these 200000 new units didnt exist.

Next year there will be 400000 new Big trucks on the market where will the buyers for these come from? There are only 3 options.

rockylee · December 2005

Well snakeweasel, now you can say you have
http://www.landroverusa.com/us/en/Vehicles/RangeRover_Sport/Overview.htm

Rocky

kdhspyder · December 2005

Expect to see a revival of Chrysler's Imperial alongside Dodge's Challenger prototype at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit in January

Can we just all go back to the 70's when everything was right with the world?

townhome · December 2005

You just wrote the exact thought I had this morning, except I thought that Americans have been hating America since the mid 1960's.

You have the answer to this topic thread -- What will it take for consumers to buy American again? They are going to have to start liking America again; start thinking that American ideas and products are good.

What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

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