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Toyota on the mend?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I feel the same way about the C class from MB as the IS, GS & ES from Lexus. It is for people that just want a Luxury nameplate on their car.

    An example would be the Toyota Land Cruiser vs the LX570. A loaded Land Cruiser gives you more for a lot less money than the LX570. The only reason I can see for buying the Lexus is to park it in your driveway for the neighbors to see how foolish you are with money.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Or how much the buyer has to dish out up front...

    It's an aging design now and a huge seller...I bet its paid for...so maybe not as much is lost as one would think. And that sweetheart lease has to be a base base car - fake leather, no nav, maybe even a manual.

    No C-class wagon in NA anymore, hasn't been for several years.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    The GS is a nice car - even if it sold maybe 10 units last year - not so much a lower line car as an IS or ES. It's priced closer to E/5 etc territory too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    It's a diesel, huge torque and a good amount of hp for the size. Over 200hp, 0-60 around 8 secs and 150mph top end in a big boat, it will work. I don't know if we'll even see it in NA.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I don't see many of them, people on this continent still want the V8. I even see quite a few AMG variants.

    On this continent we don't get nearly as many lower variants - only the hybrid, and it still sells well. The Lexus being too isolated is what damns it in other markets.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Speaking of fake leather. I am not sure I am a fan of MB Tex. Is it better than cheapo leather?

    I am sure that MB would like to regain their title in the luxury market. I don't know if diluting the lineup is the best way. I know when we parked next to a little IS a few years ago, my wife was appalled at how far down Lexus had gone. Her statement. How can they call that a luxury car. To her the ES was not a luxury car. So Lexus has sold their name for numbers.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    You might not even be able to tell MB pleather from the real thing. It is pretty convincing. I don't think they call it "Tex" anymore, but is still used in everything below the S/SL. Heck, in Europe a base S doesn't have real leather either.

    I don't think MB is diluting anything - it has always made basic cars. Less than 20 years ago you could still get an S-class with a manual.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The original LS400 was a smash hit, but don't forget, the 2nd model Lexus sold was the ES250.

    Remember that car? That was really just a Camry in a tux.

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I remember the ES250 well. It was Toyota's way of getting rid of the best sedan they ever built. The Cressida. The Camry/ES has never reached that level.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Discounts seem pretty small to me, from Fitzmall.com:

    Just 3 Sequoias in stock:

    List $61,661.00, no-haggle price $57,105.00.
    List $57,105.00 for $53,039.00.
    List $57,105.00 for $53,039.00 (same price as #2).

    Same dealer happens to have a Chevy franchise, so we can compare apples-to-apples. They also have 3 Suburbans in stock:

    List $60,600.00 for $55,643.00.
    List $56,070.00 for $50,846.00.
    List $55,065.00 for $49,051.00.

    So what you observed when you bought your Sequioa is no longer the case - prices are higher than Chevy yet discounts are smaller.

    You got a bargain with great timing - no argument there.

    I'd compare with Ford Expedition but they don't have a Ford franchise. Koons Ford nearby has them for $46k-54k list. That means even at full list price an Expedition is cheaper than a Sequioa today. After wheelin' and dealin', much cheaper.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    best sedan they ever built. The Cressida

    You know what? We might be in agreement about that.

    Cressida shared parts with the Supra, and even had RWD.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's the 3rd award this month for the Swagger Wagon:

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/minivans-vans/1012_2011_toyota_sienna_se_vs_- 2011_honda_odyssey_ex_l_vs_2010_dodge_caravan_sxt_comparison/specs.html

    Note that Dodge is about to stuff the Pentastar V6 in its vans (overdue, but welcome) and a new interior as well. That should make the Grand Caravan competitive once again.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited November 2010
    I still to this day love the Cressida. I owned a 1987 and a 1991 (in reverse chronological order) and I loved them both.

    I love to still see them on the road, and take every chance to talk to a driver of one when I run into them on occasion.

    Trading in the 1991 Cressida for a 1992 Q45 was the biggest car mistake I have ever made. (ahem - a decision based mostly on the desires of the wife at the time, now the ex-wife.)

    The crushed velour seats they used are among the most plush seats ever sold in a mass market auto. They were soft, thick, and luxurious to a ridiculous degree.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A buddy of mine still daily-drives a beater Cressida. I'll have to ask him how many miles it has. It would not surprise me if it was over a quarter million.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    Who knows what numbers WSJ is using. Maybe just like the LA times they're using North American sales for some, USA only for other makes.

    That's a very funny comment!

    Just a little more search, I found the reason for the discrepancy. The higher MB sales number includes the MB Sprinter minivans.

    Here's the link to the sales number break down:
    MB sales

    Here's the link to the MB Sprinter:
    MB Sprinter

    Sales numbers are black and white; there's no reason to accuse Wall Street Journal and LA Times as sloppy journalists without a base.

    So MB is still No. 1, and it has the momentum (faster growth) to increase the lead.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    You're about a day and a half behind:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efda853/11081#MSG11081

    It's a fast thread, try to keep up!

    Sprinter is not a luxury car, Mercedes themselves agrees, so Lexus is in fact the #1 luxury brand in the USA.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    Even Mercedes knows they are #2, their luxury sales posted on their web site.

    “December is a big month,” said Dietmar Exler, vice president of Mercedes-Benz Financial USA. “There will be some programs, but there will be nothing stupid just to be No. 1.”

    http://www.ashfire.net/mercedes-nothing-%E2%80%98stupid-planned-to-top-lexus-in-- - luxury-race.html

    I'm not sure a $300/month C-class lease doesn't already qualify as doing something stupid to try to win over the #1 spot, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If Lexus is not discounting more than the others why can I get an ES350 2010 model with over $6300 off of MSRP and over $2000 below invoice. And the local dealers have them on their lots. Those numbers from Edmunds TMV.

    I don't see any 2010 Mercedes "C" class in San Diego dealerships. And you can lease a $35k Lexus HS 250h for $339 per month according to

    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/best-car-deals/Lexus-Deals/
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    Sprinter is not a luxury car

    We are talking about luxury BRAND sales here. It'd be very subjective if you start picking which models are not luxury cars and which ones are. Those low Lexus models can be easily dismissed too.

    So Mercedes is the No. 1 luxury BRAND in the US.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    over $2000 below invoice

    At about $2200 per car in incentives that leaves the dealer with a $200 profit, plus the holdback.

    Sounds about right to me.

    The Lexus lease is 10% higher than the similarly priced entry C class, so again, lower incentives there, too.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Here we go. How can a company that makes trucks, taxis, "executive" class, A class and smart cars be a luxury brand? :D:D

    If you go that route, Lexus is more of a luxury brand than Mercedes.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lexus lease is 10% higher than the similarly priced entry C class

    I guess that means Lexus is well aware of what their cars will be worth after a 3 year lease. :blush:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Look at your own chart, from the link you provided:

    image

    You see a total for Passenger Vehicles, then they list the Sprinter separately at the bottom with an asterix.

    Not only is it not a luxury vehicle, it's not even qualified as a passenger vehicle!

    Mercedes acknowledges this, why can't you?

    Link one more time for those in denial:

    http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/corporate-news/mercedes-benz-ca- rs-worldwide-sales-increase-14-percent-in-october-2010/

    NAFTA 21,000 +1.4 205,100 +15.4
    - of which U.S. 18,400 +0.9 178,100 +15.9

    Source: MERCEDES
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wrong again, residuals are similar, both earn 4 stars from ALG:

    https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx

    The ES, IS, and C-class all fall in the same category.

    Mercedes offers a $300/month lease because they have TWICE the average subsidies compared to Lexus.

    Face it - they are giving away C-classes in trying to catch up to Lexus.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    of infinite head room in the back seat!

    image

    Some of these are pimped out pretty nice, though.

    Steelies are the new chrome wheels.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited November 2010
    The Edmund website listed Sprinter as a passenger vehicle together with the rest of the MB models:

    MB vehicles go to page 3
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    You are very good at maneuver data or picture!

    Sprinter is a $40k van, not a cheap car.
    Sprinter
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    How can a company that makes trucks, taxis, "executive" class, A class and smart cars be a luxury brand?

    Who mentioned trucks, taxis, executive class, A class and smart cars? They are not in the MB USA sales numbers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    The Edmund website listed Sprinter...

    But Mercedes does not. When in doubt, you go with what the people who make the car say:

    http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/about/history.php

    They call it a commercial van.

    Not just a world leader in premium passenger cars, Mercedes-Benz is also the world's largest manufacturer of commercial vehicles

    Besides passenger cars, they build OTHER things, that aren't passenger cars.

    Straight from the horse's mouth.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sprinter is a $40k van, not a cheap car.

    Allow me to correct you:

    Sprinter is a $40k van, not a car at all.

    Why do you think they badged it as a Dodge at first?

    They didn't want the Mercedes name on a delivery truck with steelies on it.

    Price is up there, but same for an E-450 Ford and that's not a luxury car, either.

    Mercedes may be the luxury badge that sells the most non-luxury cars that aren't cars but instead commercial vehicles.

    Lexus is winning the luxury sales race in the USA.

    Pretty clear to me.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Face it - they are giving away C-classes in trying to catch up to Lexus.

    I guess that is fair. After all that is how Lexus broke into the luxury market, by dumping their vehicles on the US market for under cost. Are we sure that MB is not making any money on those C class leases?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lexus is winning the luxury sales race in the USA.

    Would not gross sales be a more realistic figure than vehicle numbers? You cannot compare two ES350s to one S550. or two C class to one LS460. That is where numbers sold means little from my perspective of return on investment. Which means the ultimate figure should be net profit.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited November 2010
    ateixeira, this debate becomes unnecessarily long. Let's separate the facts from the opinions so we can agree on the facts and keep our opinions. There's no way we can change our opinions; but attacking the facts like calling Wall Street Journal and LA Time sloppy (for mixing US and NA sales numbers) is just not mature.

    Here are the facts we can all agree:

    YTD Mercedes US sales including Sprinter is 184431; excluding Sprinter is 178080.
    YTD Lexus US sales is 183529.

    So if the Sprinter number counted, MB is No. 1; if not counted, Lexus is No. 1.

    Whether the Sprinter should be counted as luxury vehicles or not, it's an opinion. It's quite obvious what yours and mine is. Here are some opinions from other industry media:

    The ones counted the Sprinter:
    Wall Street Journal
    LA Times
    Forbes
    Bloomberg
    etc

    The ones not counted the Sprinter:
    Bloomberg
    Business Week
    Forbes

    So you can tell even the same media can not agree among themselves.

    Let's leave the opinions here and stop the arguments; and agree on this statement based on facts:

    There are more Mercedes sold than Lexus this year in the US.

    OK?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2010
    I mentioned trucks, taxis, smart cars, etc. because you said "Mercedes is the No. 1 luxury BRAND in the US."

    Lots of people would say Tiffany or Maybach is a luxury brand. As far as I know Tiffany and Mayback don't make shiny things to compete with Timexes and Camrys.

    So the S-Class may be a luxury vehicle, but the whole brand?

    We've been having this debate around here for a decade now, thus my "here we go again" comment. No one here can even agree on the definition of luxury, much less whether a particular brand qualifies under that moniker (i.e. Volvo?). Next we'll cue up Shania Twain's hit. :)

    Back to Toyota eh?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Mercedes is a manufacturer

    Lexus is a brand
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ok, so you're saying that Mercedes isn't a brand? Therefore it can't be a luxury brand?

    No? Ok, what's the luxury vehicle division of Mercedes? Surely they have a separate brand since they wouldn't want anyone to confuse an S Class with a smart car. That would be like Hyundai coming out with an Equus without a separate brand. No one would want to buy one.

    I guess Toyota figured it out with their luxury vehicle division called Lexus.

    I think I got it. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    good point. Toyota sold some of the cars they call Lexus in the USA as Toyotas in Japan. When you take into consideration that most vehicles sold at the Lexus dealerships in the USA are actually rebadged Toyotas with a bit of foo foo added for the name conscious car buyer. If you took away the fancy Camry and fancy Highlander it would not leave many vehicles sold as Lexus in the USA.
  • ctlctl Member Posts: 129
    I think it is related to the "NA No. 1 luxury car brand" debate

    Even though it is more about bragging right than anything else, let's get the definition straight.

    - It is about "NA luxury car brand", so only the passenger cars sold in NA under the brand counts

    - It is brand, not manufacturer. So Sprinter, MB commercial trucks etc. doesn't count. Same reason that Toyota cars or commercial trucks doesn't count as Lexus, MINI doesn't count for BMW, VW doesn't count for Audi, Bentley/RR doesn't count for BMW/VW.

    No question that in terms of revenue (total car dollars transaction), and also the "prestige" factor, MB is still higher than Lexus. Probably it would be MB > BMW > Lexus. But that's not the ranking criteria here.

    In terms of pure number, not to defend Lexus, but they are lagging mostly because 1. the recall scandals. 2. 3 aging models (GS/IS/ES).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited November 2010
    Mercedes doesn't have a luxury division - it has models with luxury variants, and a highline range (S/SL/CL/etc).

    MB was known for engineering excellence, driving prowess, and build quality, from day one. Hyunda was not. Both firms pre-merger (1926, not 1999) made big expensive cars, and more ordinary middle class cars. MB never had to branch out into the highline, the "everything" brand strategy was almost always there.

    Lexus is a nonentity in the world outside of NA.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    You missed his point entirely!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    RX and ES, as the most Toyota of Lexus, have to make up the bulk of sales indeed.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Well if we went by your standards, then the only true luxury vehicles we should be getting are MB's and BMW's. I guess we can live in the fact that half of us would be spending our time watching our MB's and BMW's go up on tow trucks going off to the dealer to be fixed often. Yeah, that's real luxury we can believe in :sick:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2010
    And here I thought BMW was a performance brand, not a luxury brand.

    And come to think of it, isn't Daimler the manufacturer and Mercedes is the brand?
  • ctlctl Member Posts: 129
    That's not true any more, wrong info for a few years now

    Lexus is in NA, Europe, Asia, Japan, everywhere. There is no longer co-exist re-badge like before. Toyota has been cleaning up, they are not stupid, or they won't be where they are today :)

    Lexus is a nonentity in the world outside of NA.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I was just going to post that but you beat me to it. Thanks for correcting some of the inaccuracies the Toyota/Lexus bashers have been spewing!
  • ctlctl Member Posts: 129
    edited November 2010
    BMW is a performance brand only in the marketing universe. :) I don't think their exec's or share holders care under what category (luxury/sport) that revenue was from, as long as they can keep it coming :)

    And here I thought BMW was a performance brand, not a luxury brand.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited November 2010
    They are offered in Europe, but barely sold. Spend an hour in a ritzy section of London, Paris, Rome, Zurich, Berlin, etc etc etc and see how many Lexus you see. Compare that number to the Euro highlines. As I said, a nonentity.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Are we sure that MB is not making any money on those C class leases?

    According to Edmunds it's made in Germany, and we both know the Euro is much stronger than the dollar.

    That lease is 218 Euros, so I think it's safe to conclude Mercedes is losing money on those.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    The ones not counted the Sprinter:
    Bloomberg
    Business Week
    Forbes

    You forgot the most important source: Mercedes-Benz!

    You also left out Automotive News.

    I'll issue a challenge: since you disagree with Mercedes, write them a memo and ask them to state their sales with Sprinter sales included from now on.

    Good luck with that. Let us know how that goes. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    RX and ES, as the most Toyota of Lexus, have to make up the bulk of sales indeed.

    Correct, but similarly the C- and E-class make up the bulk of Mercedes-Benz sales. More than half.

    So now let's look at prices (I'm using Edmunds as a source for all prices):

    C-class: $33,600 and up
    E-class: $48,050 and up
    ES: $35,175 and up
    RX: $37,625 and up
    RX hybrid: $42,685 and up

    So the RX is a bit cheaper than the E-class, but the cheapest car here is the C-class, and remember those $218/month leases are what it driving that volume (my guess is about a quarter of Benz sales happen at a loss).

    Also remember Benz has more than DOUBLE the incentives per vehicle, well over $4 grand per.

    Those who think the S-class is killing the LS, keep in mind that it's a fresher than the Lexus and Mercedes builds 5 powertrains for it vs. 2 for Lexus, and YTD sales are 11,512 to 9,489.

    So with 250% as many powertrain variations to manufacture they get 21% more S-class sales.

    That's good, but honestly, I think they should have a much bigger lead. 2 different AMGs? A hybrid? Two other engines? Lexus does nearly as well with just one V8 and a hybrid based on that same V8.
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