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Toyota on the mend?



  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,179
    I feel the same way about the C class from MB as the IS, GS & ES from Lexus. It is for people that just want a Luxury nameplate on their car.

    An example would be the Toyota Land Cruiser vs the LX570. A loaded Land Cruiser gives you more for a lot less money than the LX570. The only reason I can see for buying the Lexus is to park it in your driveway for the neighbors to see how foolish you are with money.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,962
    Or how much the buyer has to dish out up front...

    It's an aging design now and a huge seller...I bet its paid maybe not as much is lost as one would think. And that sweetheart lease has to be a base base car - fake leather, no nav, maybe even a manual.

    No C-class wagon in NA anymore, hasn't been for several years.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,962
    The GS is a nice car - even if it sold maybe 10 units last year - not so much a lower line car as an IS or ES. It's priced closer to E/5 etc territory too.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,962
    It's a diesel, huge torque and a good amount of hp for the size. Over 200hp, 0-60 around 8 secs and 150mph top end in a big boat, it will work. I don't know if we'll even see it in NA.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,962
    I don't see many of them, people on this continent still want the V8. I even see quite a few AMG variants.

    On this continent we don't get nearly as many lower variants - only the hybrid, and it still sells well. The Lexus being too isolated is what damns it in other markets.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,179
    Speaking of fake leather. I am not sure I am a fan of MB Tex. Is it better than cheapo leather?

    I am sure that MB would like to regain their title in the luxury market. I don't know if diluting the lineup is the best way. I know when we parked next to a little IS a few years ago, my wife was appalled at how far down Lexus had gone. Her statement. How can they call that a luxury car. To her the ES was not a luxury car. So Lexus has sold their name for numbers.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,962
    You might not even be able to tell MB pleather from the real thing. It is pretty convincing. I don't think they call it "Tex" anymore, but is still used in everything below the S/SL. Heck, in Europe a base S doesn't have real leather either.

    I don't think MB is diluting anything - it has always made basic cars. Less than 20 years ago you could still get an S-class with a manual.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The original LS400 was a smash hit, but don't forget, the 2nd model Lexus sold was the ES250.

    Remember that car? That was really just a Camry in a tux.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,179
    I remember the ES250 well. It was Toyota's way of getting rid of the best sedan they ever built. The Cressida. The Camry/ES has never reached that level.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Discounts seem pretty small to me, from

    Just 3 Sequoias in stock:

    List $61,661.00, no-haggle price $57,105.00.
    List $57,105.00 for $53,039.00.
    List $57,105.00 for $53,039.00 (same price as #2).

    Same dealer happens to have a Chevy franchise, so we can compare apples-to-apples. They also have 3 Suburbans in stock:

    List $60,600.00 for $55,643.00.
    List $56,070.00 for $50,846.00.
    List $55,065.00 for $49,051.00.

    So what you observed when you bought your Sequioa is no longer the case - prices are higher than Chevy yet discounts are smaller.

    You got a bargain with great timing - no argument there.

    I'd compare with Ford Expedition but they don't have a Ford franchise. Koons Ford nearby has them for $46k-54k list. That means even at full list price an Expedition is cheaper than a Sequioa today. After wheelin' and dealin', much cheaper.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    best sedan they ever built. The Cressida

    You know what? We might be in agreement about that.

    Cressida shared parts with the Supra, and even had RWD.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That's the 3rd award this month for the Swagger Wagon: 2011_honda_odyssey_ex_l_vs_2010_dodge_caravan_sxt_comparison/specs.html

    Note that Dodge is about to stuff the Pentastar V6 in its vans (overdue, but welcome) and a new interior as well. That should make the Grand Caravan competitive once again.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    edited November 2010
    I still to this day love the Cressida. I owned a 1987 and a 1991 (in reverse chronological order) and I loved them both.

    I love to still see them on the road, and take every chance to talk to a driver of one when I run into them on occasion.

    Trading in the 1991 Cressida for a 1992 Q45 was the biggest car mistake I have ever made. (ahem - a decision based mostly on the desires of the wife at the time, now the ex-wife.)

    The crushed velour seats they used are among the most plush seats ever sold in a mass market auto. They were soft, thick, and luxurious to a ridiculous degree.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    A buddy of mine still daily-drives a beater Cressida. I'll have to ask him how many miles it has. It would not surprise me if it was over a quarter million.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    Who knows what numbers WSJ is using. Maybe just like the LA times they're using North American sales for some, USA only for other makes.

    That's a very funny comment!

    Just a little more search, I found the reason for the discrepancy. The higher MB sales number includes the MB Sprinter minivans.

    Here's the link to the sales number break down:
    MB sales

    Here's the link to the MB Sprinter:
    MB Sprinter

    Sales numbers are black and white; there's no reason to accuse Wall Street Journal and LA Times as sloppy journalists without a base.

    So MB is still No. 1, and it has the momentum (faster growth) to increase the lead.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    You're about a day and a half behind:

    It's a fast thread, try to keep up!

    Sprinter is not a luxury car, Mercedes themselves agrees, so Lexus is in fact the #1 luxury brand in the USA.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    Even Mercedes knows they are #2, their luxury sales posted on their web site.

    “December is a big month,” said Dietmar Exler, vice president of Mercedes-Benz Financial USA. “There will be some programs, but there will be nothing stupid just to be No. 1.” - luxury-race.html

    I'm not sure a $300/month C-class lease doesn't already qualify as doing something stupid to try to win over the #1 spot, though.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,179
    If Lexus is not discounting more than the others why can I get an ES350 2010 model with over $6300 off of MSRP and over $2000 below invoice. And the local dealers have them on their lots. Those numbers from Edmunds TMV.

    I don't see any 2010 Mercedes "C" class in San Diego dealerships. And you can lease a $35k Lexus HS 250h for $339 per month according to
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    Sprinter is not a luxury car

    We are talking about luxury BRAND sales here. It'd be very subjective if you start picking which models are not luxury cars and which ones are. Those low Lexus models can be easily dismissed too.

    So Mercedes is the No. 1 luxury BRAND in the US.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    over $2000 below invoice

    At about $2200 per car in incentives that leaves the dealer with a $200 profit, plus the holdback.

    Sounds about right to me.

    The Lexus lease is 10% higher than the similarly priced entry C class, so again, lower incentives there, too.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    Here we go. How can a company that makes trucks, taxis, "executive" class, A class and smart cars be a luxury brand? :D :D

    If you go that route, Lexus is more of a luxury brand than Mercedes.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,179
    Lexus lease is 10% higher than the similarly priced entry C class

    I guess that means Lexus is well aware of what their cars will be worth after a 3 year lease. :blush:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Look at your own chart, from the link you provided:


    You see a total for Passenger Vehicles, then they list the Sprinter separately at the bottom with an asterix.

    Not only is it not a luxury vehicle, it's not even qualified as a passenger vehicle!

    Mercedes acknowledges this, why can't you?

    Link one more time for those in denial: rs-worldwide-sales-increase-14-percent-in-october-2010/

    NAFTA 21,000 +1.4 205,100 +15.4
    - of which U.S. 18,400 +0.9 178,100 +15.9

    Source: MERCEDES
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Wrong again, residuals are similar, both earn 4 stars from ALG:

    The ES, IS, and C-class all fall in the same category.

    Mercedes offers a $300/month lease because they have TWICE the average subsidies compared to Lexus.

    Face it - they are giving away C-classes in trying to catch up to Lexus.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    of infinite head room in the back seat!


    Some of these are pimped out pretty nice, though.

    Steelies are the new chrome wheels.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    edited November 2010
    The Edmund website listed Sprinter as a passenger vehicle together with the rest of the MB models:

    MB vehicles go to page 3
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    You are very good at maneuver data or picture!

    Sprinter is a $40k van, not a cheap car.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    How can a company that makes trucks, taxis, "executive" class, A class and smart cars be a luxury brand?

    Who mentioned trucks, taxis, executive class, A class and smart cars? They are not in the MB USA sales numbers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2010
    The Edmund website listed Sprinter...

    But Mercedes does not. When in doubt, you go with what the people who make the car say:

    They call it a commercial van.

    Not just a world leader in premium passenger cars, Mercedes-Benz is also the world's largest manufacturer of commercial vehicles

    Besides passenger cars, they build OTHER things, that aren't passenger cars.

    Straight from the horse's mouth.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Sprinter is a $40k van, not a cheap car.

    Allow me to correct you:

    Sprinter is a $40k van, not a car at all.

    Why do you think they badged it as a Dodge at first?

    They didn't want the Mercedes name on a delivery truck with steelies on it.

    Price is up there, but same for an E-450 Ford and that's not a luxury car, either.

    Mercedes may be the luxury badge that sells the most non-luxury cars that aren't cars but instead commercial vehicles.

    Lexus is winning the luxury sales race in the USA.

    Pretty clear to me.
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