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That site had a Benz lease for $327 and Benz' own lease is $339, heck you can have the $12.
Mercedes has huge incentives to unload these. Deny all you want, but it's true.
I know of a used one I am wondering might fit my purposes, online, but can't find one to sit in and check out in person. They seem to be pretty rare. Resale numbers suggest that they haven't held a strong dollar since the Genesis came out.
That's true if you have an 8th person riding. I doubt most people do.
I have leased cars before, have you?
Leasing is not always only about the monthly payment.
The MERC is for 27 months. BMW an LEXUS for 36 months.
All average 10k per year mileage allowance.
328i Msrp 38,350, 0 Down, Monthly $439, Total Cash 15804, Buy out 23130
ES350 Msrp 37405, 3839 Down, Monthly $389, Total Cash 17843, Buy out 22105
C300 Msrp 38350, 3379 Down, Monthly $339, Total Cash 12532, Buy out 27229
Does the Sonata sell on styling or value merits? I'd say the latter. Camry and Accord sell by the hundreds of thousands too, neither can be called inspiring in the styling department. Bread and butter sedans don't often sell on design.
Those Euro brands also nearly failed at home. Things sucked then, save for a handful of brands. Lack of dealer infrastructure in the US also did them in as much as crappy cars.
I don't know if MB quality really improved since Lexus came around. It was pretty awesome in the 1989 - fell apart due to Lexus pressure more than anything else...although it was rarely *that* bad. Now it is climbing back up, all while offering cars that drive better. However, I will thank Lexus for pricing pressure, lord knows what the cars would cost now without it. Genesis? I don't believe anyone cross shops it with a similar MB, even if someone said they did on TV. If I want an old 5er (which is what the Genesis mimics), I'll buy a used M5 for the same money.
BTW, your Lexus is older than any car I have.
A Ford dealer by my work has about 100 of them lined up in the back lot due to the recall. Ford is quietly buying them back...
I like newer Hyundais, but the XG is from before they really started improving. Output from the engine is ho-hum for its size (just 194hp), styling is dull, weight is higher than it should be, crash test performance was not good.
Hyundai has improved by leaps and bounds, but given how affordable they are, I'd stick with a much newer one.
We ARE doing it again, LOL.
June-July 2011. DC to NY, NY to DC, DC to Key West, and then back home.
Anyone familiar with Sanibel Island? We may stop there after Orlando.
:shades:
Better roads, perhaps. Wouldn't be a surprise. But what about roads in BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China)? These are where future growth will come from, and the infrastructure is nothing like that of the EU, though many new roads may be better.
My E55 ...
I forget yours is an AMG, that explains a lot. To be fair, a new AMG E-class costs nearly $90 grand. That certainly puts your comparisons in to perspective.
Does the Sonata sell on styling or value merits?
I'd say both. Plus, the stretched lights look you dislike may have been started by Peugeot, and I see a hint of it in the C-class taillights.
I've never factored in crash worthiness before. I guess it's because I am a pretty defensive driver out of necessity to keep alive on two wheels also, but there is no question you are pretty vulnerable to a T Bone in an intersection. Some things are hard to avoid.
I guess my expectations in a replacement car are a difficult niche to fill. Some of the things I want ( a really good seat, and very quiet going down the road) are usually packaged with a lot of other technological sophistication that I would like to avoid if I could. I am no fan of auto dual climate control, or sunroofs, yet I do want seat heaters. I would like to have keyless entry (easily covered) but I don't even need pwr windows. In fact I prefer a manual wind up one that is more resistant to freezing in the winter. I know the pwr window thing I will have to endure as even the most basic cars come with those.
My only reason to replace my present car, a CRV, is to try to find a more comfortable seat. And almost anything is quieter going down the road than a Honda. I am even ready to give up AWD, to help with the fuel bills and help finance the good (great) seat I'm looking for. Volvo used to be known for their good seats, but I don't think I trust their dependability record as a vehicle. MBenz, BMW (and other high-enders) also have good seats but they are beyond my budget. And within reason, I don't want the complexity of a car I can't work on myself. I just learned that some of these cars don't even have dipsticks anymore. I draw the line there.
I'm open to suggestions if anyone has any, and thanks again ateixeira.
It may be tough to get heated seats with no power windows.
You may want to consider adding aftermarket seat heaters to an existing car.
Interesting thing about the Sonata. In Hyundai's infinite wisdom, they don't offer heaters with the stick tranny. Not even as an option.
I am not one of those people that think the imports, (japanese), and domestic cars are alot closer in quality than some...I still would by a Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, or Subaru before I bought Chrysler Ford or GM, (still not sold 100% 0n Hyundai either)
I wasn't comparing my E55 to lower priced cars, I was saying it was especially harsh for such a car. New ones are more like 100K with normal options, and have more advanced suspensions. And on that note, the lower line E200 diesel I drove in Germany last year probably handles better than a similarly priced Lexus, even if a little slower off the line.
I don't see any real styling merits to the Sonata. It's a Korean interpretation of a CLS, and Asian styling knockoffs are rarely beauties. Nobody stretches lights like a few Asian makes, who have been aiming to connect the headlight assemblies with the A-pillar or front door for a while now. The CL also has slightly wraparound lights, but they don't aim for the door or pillar as some brands do.
I'd love to see what a modern version of 80s MB engineering would look like. Actually, I think you can find it in the lower spec Euro cars today. I was feeling a definite W123-124 vibe in that diesel I drove last year. There is such a thing as too much gadgetry and weight.
They said they were going to test a Hemi-equipped model to see if it behaved in the same manner.
What's that, a mulligan? Or do they just not go after the domestic brands at all? What gives?
Historically, CR has gone after Suzuki (Samurai), then Isuzu (Trooper), then Toyota (Lexus GX). Ford got a pass when the Escape rolled over in crash tests, and now a Jeep is getting a 2nd chance if not a free pass.
The 3 imports got a giant "DO NOT BUY" warning.
And the funny thing is people say CR is biased in favor of Toyota. Imagine that!
Not directly, but that is your yardstick.
Really, nothing from Asia competes with the AMG E-class or its German equivalents, not until the tuned GS ever appears anyway.
Conversely, some people find certain vehicles big (say, a mid-size SUV) but I'm so used to my minivan that I find those tight inside.
We agree about the upcoming GS-F (?) being among the first to try to challenge the big AMG sedans.
Toyota had some soul once. Maybe they can bring it back.
I sat in an IS-F at the "Taste of Lexus" event that toured around the country. Fabulous seats, but we didn't get to drive it.
I don't think Toyotas necessarily need soul, in other words a lot of people need beige carpeting and paint. I bet you have some in your own home.
Ferrari red and BRG are exiciting colors, sure, but I wouldn't paint more than one wall those colors.
Toyota once had a nice line of RWD cars, many of which existed with a manual, and cool trucks. Not so much of that lately. They've catered well to the beige market, but I'd rather have beige flooring than a beige vehicle.
Plus, who is the poseur? Your aunt in the ES who just wants space and comfort, or the Yuppie who buys an M3 automatic because he can't drive stick, and then complains about the stiff ride all the time? IMHO the Lexus owners is at least being honest with herself. To me that M3 buyer is the poseur.
Better yet - it's the guy with the 328i that buys the little ///M sticker (the best selling part in the BMW catalog, ironically). Have you seen Lexus F stickers on an ES? I haven't.
Funny thing is while I am an enthusiasts, I tend to follow Colin Chapman's theory of "adding lightness" to make a car more fun, so I've always liked sporty cars that are also small/light - CR-X, Miata, Elise, etc.
Thing is, besides that Elise, there aren't many european sports cars under 3000 lbs. Did you know a Porsche 911 is now longer and heavier than a Corvette Z06? In the late 70s 911 faithful would have called the 'vette a pig, now look.
What happened? Even a VW GTI hits the scales at over 3000 lbs. Huh?
Here's the new Benz SLK - it has become a bigger, heavier, GT instead of a sports car:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/03/leaked-2012-mercedes-benz-slk-revealed-ahead-- of-schedule-w-vid/
I'd rather sample an FT-86.
Or this:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/06/rumormill-honda-planning-turbocharged-non-hyb- rid-cr-z/
Hope it's true. A real CR-X successor would be sweet.
I know there are hot hatches in Europe, but when are we going to see some of those here?
Yes, but that's because there isn't any 'F' in an ES, whereas every 328i comes with a little bit of ///M.
Lexus is trying to be two things at once, which will always hurt it in the eyes of enthusiasts - it is trying to compete with the Buicks, Acuras, and Volvos of the world with the FWD models, which are mostly just rebadges of Toyotas with some frou-frou and a badge thrown in to make the owner feel special, and meanwhile it is also trying to compete with the Europeans with the rest of the models, where performance is mostly lagging the Euro competition.
Enthusiasts will never give any respect to a luxury brand that is half full of Acura/Buicks - just look at how little love Buick, Acura, and Volvo get from performance fans.
But for Lexus this does result in lots of sales, because the A/B/V end of the line is the cheaper end, and it is where more than 3/4 of the sales are.
That's why the LFA is such a huge waste of money and energy for Toyota, and why the F-line is questionable too. Until they split off their FWD snoozer models into a separate brand and reserve the Lexus name for the serious models, their image will be muddled and few will really believe in their new "performance" line. Reference Cadillac prior to the early '00s.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't see any real styling merits to the Sonata. It's a Korean interpretation of a CLS, and Asian styling knockoffs are rarely beauties
....and OMG! I couldn't agree more! The Hyundai folks have done a totally typical Korean makeover of a good-looking European car here, with the usual results, and it BLOWS MY MIND that so many people think this car looks good. I thought it looked bad in pictures, then I went to the auto show and it looks even worse in person.
Kinda gives Toyota a leg up, I think - makes their styling look a little better by comparison.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I disagree. If it doesn't have an M from the factory, adding a fake sticker is no different than a giant wing on a Civic.
Lexus is trying to be two things at once
On that I agree, but I think it could still work. It's just been a half-hearted effort so far. Great engines (Lotus-worthy) but no manuals to go with them. All-or-nothing suspension tuning, too.
The next IS and GS are crucial, very crucial, to Lexus pleasing enthusiasts. And I'm not just talking about the F models, either.
The new twist is it brought the 4 door coupe look to the affordable segment, and sales have skyrocketed.
OK, fintail says it's competing with dull cars, but look at the previous Sonata - and sales are up from that dull car, way up.
Look at the Passat CC - no such success.
If it were not for the wannabe SUV RX, that looks for all intents and purposes like a Faberge Egg, Lexus would not have much to brag about on the sales front. 63% of their sales are the RX and fancy Camry ES. Both vehicles prove there are a lot of old people out there with lots of money to waste.
I am assuming that Lexus was trying to compete with the ML from MB when they built the RX a year later. I cannot come up with a single aspect the RX excels over the ML. I guess people buy them because they are CHEAP with a Lexus emblem.
Plenty of brands have poseurs driving all models. I see plenty of [non-permissible content removed] trying to race around in likely leased IS models of various spec (but never an F of course, as these are like hens teeth) just as I see them in leased 328, A4, G37, and C300s. There's a certain demographic who buys such cars no matter the brand,especially here.
One reason you might not see a fake F badge on a Lexus is few know the line even exists. It's not exactly dominating the worldwide tuned production car market like M/AMG/S-RS have done for eons.
SLK has always been kind of a cruiser more than a real sports car either, other than the rare tuned variants...doesn't surprise me. It was never meant to be a Miata.
Americans generally don't like hatchbacks, especially from weird brands.
In 20 years people won't be looking back at it as a piece of great design. It's a knock-off with an uglier front.
I think that entire segment are somewhat like Faberge eggs - RX/ML/MDX and so on. No thanks.
If I wanted a SUV I'd be after a grey market diesel G-Wagen. Now that's an SUV.
You'll need to go to evil socialist Europe to get a diesel Allroad. The ones sold here were very problematic. A co-worker of mine has one of the last ones sold here (they still make them for Europe) - likes it a lot, has had very few problems...but he tells me his mechanic tells him his car is miraculously good compared to most. I think the average Lexus owner would cringe or cry at the thought of fueling up at a stinky diesel pump :shades:
I just like that size and looks of the older Allroad. Have never driven or owned one. It does not have that gawdy Audi radiator that I don't like. That kills the Q7 diesel for me.
"aesthetic maintenance facility" - nice turn of phrase. Must remember it.
You really hate the ES, eh? LOL
Keep in mind the ES is built in Japan, and measured quality is higher than the Camry. It also gets a unique engine, interior, exterior, etc.
That's not really fair - Lexus doesn't try to make the ES sporty. It's less sporty than their own Camry, intentionally.
Some people want a big, comfy sofa.
I agree more with criticisms against the IS and GS because those models ARE supposed to be sporty. They need better suspension tuning and more manual transmissions. Let's see how Lexus updates those.
I think we'll look back and say this Sonata was a turning point for Hyundai.
"Great" design? That's a mighty high standard to apply to a mainstream family sedan.
Still, the Sonata will do for Hyundai what the original Taurus did for Ford. Interesting enough to draw attention, and a successful design as well.
The original ML was body-on-frame, but isn't the new one softer, and now unibody? They softened it up to compete with ... guess who? The segment leader you hate.
If you want an off road truck on that platform go for the new Grand Cherokee. Just be willing to accept that the stability control is as bad as the Lexus GX' used to be.
You were critical of the Lexus GX, now the question is, would you give the Jeep a free pass for the same problem?
That formula worked, can we blame them? Lexus has maintained the #1 spot for how many years now? If it ain't broke....
Also, doesn't M-B sponsor fashion week? They'd kill to steal all those designer handbag customers away from Lexus. An ML was never an enthusiast car anyway. No wonder the newer ML is less trucky and a lot more Lexus-like.
Yes, from day one. It replaced the best car Toyota ever built. The Cressida. It was the beginning of the end for a decent car company. The Camry may sell in the millions to those that do not know any better. It is still sub par to the Cressida. The dumbing down of the car market. My ex wife had a Cressida she loved. When she wrecked it the insurance company would not pay the price to get another one so she ended up with a Camry she did not like. I looked for a replacement the whole time we were married and no one wanted to sell their Cressida.
Cressida sales peaked in 1985 at about 45k sales. That's actually not bad volume, but the last generation only peaked at about half that rate, 24k sales in 1989.
The Lexus ES is on pace to do about 47k sales this year, and has sold consistently well.
If anything, the Lexus GS should perhaps be seen as the spritual successor to the Cressida, though, being RWD.
Cressida could even be had with a 5-speed!