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Toyota on the mend?



  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That late incentives surge helped them beat Mercedes, 247,907 to 245,192. That excludes Mini and Sprinter+Smart, of course.

    Lexus was 3rd.

    Interestingly, it's BMW first time at the top. Cadillac dominated until 1997, then Lincoln in 1998 (really?), M-B in 1999, and Lexus for the past 11 years. 6

    It wasn't a cheap fight, but they have deep pockets:

    Mercedes increased incentive spending in November by 39 percent compared with a year earlier, and BMW's incentives rose 25 percent

    From a GM rep:

    "They've been outspending us -- even with some relatively newer products," Kurt McNeil, Cadillac's vice president of sales, said in a telephone interview. BMW has offered $400 to $600 a car more than the General Motors brand, he said, and Mercedes' discounts exceeded Cadillac's by more than $1,000. "They've been bringing it from an incentive standpoint," he said.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    edited January 2012
    The Tsunami and the floods in Thailand

    So Hitler should not feel too bad about himself; he was beaten by the cold winter in Russia, not the Red Army...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2012
    Silly comparison.

    Hard to build cars under water and with no power.

  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    edited January 2012
    Silly comparison

    I don't think so.

    The mother nature played major roll in both Germany's lost in the east front and the Toyota's lost last year.

    But was the mother nature the only factor to blame? No.
    Could the lost have been minimized or reverted by better human decisions? Absolutely, in both cases.

    Had Hitler realistically assessed the Red Army's resilience and adopted a more achievable war plan, they might have won the war.

    Had Toyota realistically assessed the earthquake risk in Japan and adopted more diversified manufacturing bases, the quake damage at one single point would have been minimized.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    assessed the earthquake risk in Japan

    Noone saw that coming, though. It's not Cali.

    Plus, they already have been diversifying production. How do you think the Camry outsold the Malibu by more than 100,000 units?

    The strong Yen have forced them to diversify, and that's how 6 months after a major natural disaster, their sales were up. Already. Stunning.

    The quake after effects are felt for a long time afterward because the nuclear power plants were affected. They even shifted production to weekends to ease the burden on the grid.

    Japan was very resilient, actually. Look at this before/after photo: x-days/

    I don't think they are back to 100% strength, but they're close enough that US sales have grown for the past 2 months, and that's comparing pre-tsunami sales levels.

    Heck, December 2010 they piled on the incentives. To have increased sales 0.4% compared to that was rather incredible.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    Noone saw that coming, though. It's not Cali.

    I'm not sure "noone" means you or Toyota. Japan has more earthquakes than California.

    How can this not be in Toyota's planning?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You are way off.

    Per "The quake also shifted the whole earth's axis by 7 inches".

    According to, "Parts of Japan's coastline shifted 2.4metres".

    Nothing even close to this scale had ever happened before. Everyone was shocked.

    I challenge you - show me where you predicted this before it happened.

    {crickets chirping}

    Yeah, thought so.

    Also, the Hitler reference is absurd - his army did not recover after 6 months. It's not like Toyota died a fiery death. Market share bounced back to 13.9% in November and 14.3% in December, as supply recovered.

    Now *that* someone did actually predict in advance. Me. :shades:
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    edited January 2012
    I challenge you - show me where you predicted this before it happened.

    No one need to predict it; it's a way of life in Japan. There have been 24 earthquakes with magnitude 6.6 or greater in the past 20 years and 18 of them before the 3/11/11 quake. If you did not know it, that's fine. If Toyota management did not know it, then it would be too stupid.

    Here's the list:

    Date, magnitude
    1/1/12, 6.8
    7/10/11, 7.0
    4/11/11, 6.6
    4/7/11, 7.1
    3/11/11, 7.1
    3/11/11, 9.0
    3/9/11, 7.2
    12/21/10, 7.4
    2/26/10, 7.0
    8/11/09, 6.6
    8/9/09, 7.1
    6/14/08, 6.9
    7/16/07, 6.6
    3/25/07, 6.9
    1/13/07, 8.1
    11/15/06, 8.3
    8/16/05, 7.2
    3/20/05, 7.0
    10/23/04, 6.9
    9/25/03, 8.3
    5/4/98, 7.5
    1/17/95, 7.2
    12/28/94, 7.7
    7/12/93, 7.7
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    None of those resulted in damage anything like what we saw last year.

    If anything it just does to show the Richter scale alone does not convey the level of impact of a given natural disaster. It was the tsunami that followed, not the quake itself, that caused most of the damage.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    edited January 2012
    None of those resulted in damage anything like what we saw last year.

    Does a man have to learn that a gun can kill by pulling the trigger to his head?

    The 1/17/95 quake in Japan alone killed 6,434 (40% of the toll of last year); the 3/25/07, 1/13/07, 11/15/06, 8/16/05 quakes in Japan all created tsunami. It would be a fool not to learn from them.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They did learn, FWIW, that is how the Camry smoked the Malibu by 100,000 units in the USA.

    It's also how the Corolla won for small cars. Also how the Sienna won the minivan category.

    They have indeed hedged their bets. That is how they won those 3 important titles.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    edited January 2012
    They have indeed hedged their bets. That is how they won those 3 important titles.

    So you agree that mother nature is not everything....

    Like I said before, Toyota won some battles but lost the war to GM.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think Mother Nature would disagree with you...

    Toyota lost the battle in 2011 due to not one but two natural disasters (Thai floods also).

    The war in on-going and unlike Hitler, they're recovering very quickly.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    Toyota lost the battle in 2011 due to not one but two natural disasters (Thai floods also)

    Please click the 1st post of this thread; it was on 12/5/2005. Toyota's decline started then and mushroomed into a 20 million recalls. That was all BEFORE the quake and flood.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    That is extremely respectable mileage and a killer price.

    Shoot, imagine what this drivetrain would do in a small coupe like a front drive FR-S.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,922
    That's an interesting thought ...why can't a mainstream mass market priced hybrid not be boring or dorky looking? That unit in a FR-S looking thing would be a lot cooler.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2012
    First post date from this thread is totally irrelevant, note that the thread had a different name back then.

    If we look way back:


    URL if you cannot see the graph above: ta_share.gif

    We see that the current 14% or so market share maintains the majority of the strong growth they had. It was more like 8-9% for a very long time.

    Amazing recovery, really.

    So, is GM back to the 45% glory days? LOL
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Problem is, small coupes are trendy and do not sustain sales over time.

    Look at Eclipse sales. For a while they sold a ton, but if you graphed sales over time it pretty much takes a nose dive. I can't even tell you if they are still sold new.

    A practical hatch will keep selling. Toyota passed 3 million Prius a while ago.

    I think the Prius C might cannibalize a few regular Prius sales, but it spells absolute doom for the Honda Insight hybrid.

    53 mpg for B-segment money? It's going to fly off the lots.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Please click the 1st post of this thread; it was on 12/5/2005

    Looks like they had about 12, maybe 12.5% market share back then.

    Around 14% now and trending up.

    Impressive growth. :D
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,178
    Honda never got it with Hybrids. Always issues and lack of interest. I would think you would have to sell a lot to make any money on hybrids. I am not sure Toyota has done that well with the Prius. The big question, did the person that buys a Prius, cost Toyota a Corolla sale? Which generates the most net revenue?

    My guess in the case of Toyota and the Prius. It was all about raising their corporate mileage to sell gas guzzlers at a big profit.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,499
    >their corporate mileage to sell gas guzzlers at a big profit.

    That sounds like what is often throw against GM as a negative--selling larger vehicles at a profit!

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,178
    That is the reality. I doubt any of the automakers are thrilled to sell little tin cans like the Yaris. They do it for two good reasons. To get the entry level buyers and mitigate the mileage of the vehicles they will make a big profit on.

    My son in law likes the mileage he gets with his Yaris. He would much rather drive their GMC PU truck. Now that they both work from their home office the Yaris sits in the driveway most of the time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They've sold 3 million, and the Corolla is still the best selling small car, so it couldn't have hurt it much.

    Agree about Honda's half-hearted hybrid efforts. Go for the Gold, guys, not Silver.

    No doubt the only reason small cars exist at all in American is to help meet CAFE standards. Note how just about every manufacturer is right at the lower limit (few exceptions).

    If not for CAFE, I honestly think B-segment cars would not exist here.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,922
    Nothing wrong with using a few dorkmobile profits to subsidize a more attractivr smaller volume model.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, I could see a cuter coupe that went along with it, same drivetrain and all.

    Scion FR-S will serve the middle, so they could sandwich that with a Supra on the high end and a coupe based on an existing car at the entry level.

    At Honda, the CR-Z does nearly 3/4ths of the volume of the Insight.

    I'm not convinced that's enough, though, to justify a hybrid coupe. The Veloster is crushing the CR-Z in sales.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,922
    And just wait til the Veloster turbo is really available. Some thought the CR-Z would be the next CRX...hahahaha :sick:

    Toyota used to have a coupe lineup, but the brand was way more interesting at one time, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, saw the concept at NAIAS.

    Too extroverted for me, I'd rather see the same engine in a Rio5, but I bet it will sell well to a demographic younger than me, raised on Origami and Anime.

    Veloster could be the next CRX...the current model unfortunately is the HF model. :sick:

    Remember those? My roommate in college owned one. All of 62 horsepower! Gross, not net!

    Then again it got about 45mpg. Veloster does 40mpg. Adjusted down, too.

    The turbo could actually bring comparisons to the Si. Let's see.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,922
    edited January 2012
    Yeah a 200hp unit in a Rio would be pretty interesting.

    Anime isn't all new...I remember being sure to watch Starblazers when I was in kindergarten - the very early 80s. A lot of the new generation doesn't seem to like cars at all, and will be happy with a hand me down Corolla or something equally invisible. I don't know how car savvy the next demographic will be.

    I bet you could easily get an HF over 50mpg in highway cruising...just don't crash it.
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