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Toyota on the mend?

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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is an extension of last year's recall: it names more years with potentially bad ball joints. That must have been one HECK of a huge truckful of bad parts! :-P

    Tundra and Toyota have taken a beating with this ball joint recall. The new model had better be spotless in terms of recalls and launch glitches, what with all Toyota has staked on its success.

    lemko: is there anything that great about the Tundra? Indeed, has anyone said so? It is now a seven-year-old model, which in the last year has needed the highest cash incentives in Toyota history to sell. Considering its age, the incentives aren't such a terrible thing, but it's no diamond in the rough or anything. I like it, very carlike ride and interior considering it's a truck, but I like the Chevy full-size trucks too.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually it looks entirely different than before. In addition it's the biggest truck on the road outside of the HD's and SD's.

    It has the biggest towing capacity, the most safety features, the most advanced transmission and the most room inside. The hauling capacity is right in the middle of the F150 and new TOTY Silverado. The Tundra has better Fuel Economy than the F150 and is similar to the Silvy's.

    Ford has nothing in a 'normal' truck that can tow and accelerate like the Tundra. The 6.0L in the GMT900's is competitive but it's limited to on a few cab/chassis configurations. GM's 5.3L is outclassed even by the Ford old engine.

    What the Tundra has done is make the detroiters look at their full lineup and decide if they want to put their best effort ( read money and investments ) into every vehicle or just to specialize in a few spots.
    .. GM has a couple of good engines but you can't buy them for all models;
    .. Ford has old technology in it's relatively weak 5.4L. It has nothing bigger to offer to a 1/2 ton pickup buyer.
    .. The 5.7L HEMI is good but the RAM skimps on some options like 4Wheel ABS and it has very light hauling capacity.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    On the flip side, all the GM gas engines except the smallest have available DOD, and what's the latest on Toyota's potential diesel engine for the new Tundra? Last I heard it was delayed. Will there ever be the hybrid model that they said for sure they would have as recently as two years ago?

    I understand that they have eyeballed this segment and decided that fuel economy should be a low priority based on consumer demands, but this is Toyota, not Ford. Fuel economy should be a priority regardless of the competition, even if it means going the extra mile with the gas engines. I would LOVE to see a diesel, but I am sure it's not happening this year. And probably not next either, to judge by the news.

    Or at least let's plunk a monster-sized electric motor and some batteries in there - who cares about weight, it's a full-size pick-up after all. It's already heavy. HSD could do wonders for the city rating. That and some taller gearing (it IS a 6-speed auto after all) for better highway ratings would be an important improvement.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Reports on some of the truck sites, and Edmunds own report in the comparo today, seems to indicate that the DoD on the GM's is of very very little benefit - maybe under 5%.

    AFAIK the diesel Tundra is still in the works, within 24 months (?), after the initial launch of the gasser Tundra is completed. It's adds excitement to the rollout of this beast.
    .. blow everything away in the initial comparo's;
    .. get established at an increased sales level( 200K ? );
    .. fire a second volley with a diesel and more cab/bed configurations;
    .. establish a new level of increased sales ( 300K ? );
    .. refresh and ( add a hybrid option ? ) and increase sales again ( 400K ? )
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    TOKYO — Increasing media speculation over Toyota Motor's plan to construct a new small-car plant in India by 2010 appears to be missing the whole point of the exercise: to figure out how to out-Chinese the Chinese.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119560

    Rocky

    P.S. Looks like we might see some Japan-E class of cars. :surprise:
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    As a company tries to overtake another to become number one they begin to look more and more alike. For the most part the consumer doesn't care because the vehicle is nothing more than a machine. It doesn't matter who makes the machine only that the machine works. Betting that the number one company is supplanted by the number two or three or even the number four company doesn't take a rocket scientist it will sooner or later happen. Will the world as we know it change? Not much we will simply have a new target to complain about as they fail to meet our specific needs. Toyota has moved to become the generic car company for years. Today they define vanilla to almost every automotive enthusiast. They make cars the consumers seem to be interested in and leave the specialty cars to others. As long as that formula works why should we expect them to change. Recalls were a main topic with people when Honda and Toyota didn't have any. Once they do have them people either are surprised or suddenly decide they aren't all that important.

    Once and if Toyota gets to be the top manufacturer look for them to be more interested in playing it safe and less interested in being innovative. It is simply the natural order of things. We already see it. (My opinion only)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Hehehe:"Once and if Toyota gets to be the top manufacturer look for them to be more interested in playing it safe"

    Gawd, could they PLAY it any safer than they already do? There isn't an ounce of daring anywhere in the Toyota or Lexus lines. Maybe there's an ounce or two in the Scion line, I dunno. :-P

    Toyota will need to rethink its Tundra expansion goals, I think, because their initial idea was simply to finally have a truck to keep Toyota-loyal people from buying domestic once it was full-size truck time. They probably could get to 200K annual sales on that basis, but Toyota buyers are going to be less likely to buy a full-size truck with the gas prices going up and up IMO. Plus getting to 250K or 300K annual sales I think is going to be a real stretch, even with HD, diesel, and hybrid models.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    It seems the "good American" toyota is worried about US wages getting too high...........

    http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...SS01/702080429

    http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...SS01/702080430
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    That is simply the price that has to be paid to do business in the US. When you are a small company people and the government may be willing to cut you some slack but when you get big you get the same treatment as everyone else. US companies are required to play by the rules in Japan even if they don't care for them the Japanese will just have to do the same here.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Engineering talent base will be tapped for road ahead

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070314/AUTO01/703140422

    Rocky
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Proposed tarrifs on their cars because the US Gonvernment might push an extra tarriff on imports.

    Weakening the yen-again another thing that the government in Michigan is heavily pushing because the economy in Detroit heavily relies on the Domestic's 2.5 business, a business that Toyota is eating heavily into.

    Proposition of unionizing the Kentucky plant with the UAW.

    In consclusion, Toyota sales numbers may look great but their rest of the year(which is only 3 months in) has not been good at all and started bad with all those recalls.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Huh?

    1) Tariffs on Asian imports are a thing of the past. As a matter of fact there is an FTA with Thailand pending that would eliminate the 'chicken tax' on trucks opening the door to a flood, deluge, tsunami of imported trucks from Thailand. Pop quiz: What country is the No 2 truck producer in the world?... ( answer below ).

    2) The problem of weakening the yen is that it does exactly the opposite of what's intended. Explanation available if requested.

    3) Proposal to unionize KY. The net effect will be zero if it was ever successful.

    4) What does this statement mean? Sales numbers are increasing every month faster than the entire industry but.. there are changes possible in the future??? OK that sounds about normal.
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    Answer: Thailand.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    The thing here is that these are proposed tariffs. They won't get past that.

    Assuming there is proposed action on the value of the yen again it does not mean its happening. Who do we owe the most to for floating the bonds that keep us going? Japan. Yes, China is now the biggest buyer but Japan is the biggest owner.

    Again the proposed Unionization of the Kentucky plant is just that.

    I will add that one of these days there will be a successful unionization of a foreign plant on domestic soil and we'll see what happens. If the UAW then cuts a great deal expect loads more of it. If they don't you are looking at one plant for a long time.

    I am sure that Toyota, Nissan and Honda are all wishing that first plant on each other.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...was the old VW plant in Westmoreland County, PA unionized?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The JV plant in Fremont CA where Toyota makes the Tacoma, Corolla, Matrix and Vibe is a UAW plant.

    It sure doesn't seem to be hurting the Tacoma from being the top small truck in the market or the Corolla from being the top small auto in the market. Unionization is just another issue to consider. GM makes some great vehicles with union workers why shouldn't Toyota be able to do so as well? It does, the Tacoma and Corolla.
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    On the issue of unions: All of the plants in Europe are unionized plants making cars that run the gamut from the most reliable to some of the worst.

    All of the plants in Canada are also unionized, and, as I understand it, all of the "Foreign" plants in Detroit are unionized.

    The issue is more about how management approaches the hand they are dealt than whether or not the plants are unionized.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    The Freemont plant is not long for this world.
    With toyotas new taco plant in bc mexico which is
    next door to the plant that makes the beds (and other
    stuff) for US produced taco and tundras............
    I don't see the "terroist toyota" paying those $pendy
    union wages much longer...............

    BTW: Isn't the Vibe now assembled in mexico?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    LOL..how much misinformation can be contained in one post?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    The Freemont plant. It indeed shows that Toyota can operate in a UAW environment if they want to.

    You know what I wonder? GM is there making good vehicles in that plant but has not moved other plants to imitate it. This strikes me as how they started Saturn which was an initially great idea that they let hang on the vine because they didn't know what to do with it. They are now blending it in as a wide range division but without that single brand design - the are rebadging.

    I don't mean to say that GM is wrong with what it is doing with Saturn now under these conditions. It's a question of why didn't they start expanding with the initial acceptance,
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "2) The problem of weakening the yen is that it does exactly the opposite of what's intended. Explanation available if requested."

    Yes please explain.

    "4) What does this statement mean? Sales numbers are increasing every month faster than the entire industry but.. there are changes possible in the future??? OK that sounds about normal."

    Yeah sales are increasing faster than the industry but Toyota has recalled alot of cars this year and their recalls have went up by alot in the past few years even though they(their recalls)were down last year from 2005 figures.
    .
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "The JV plant in Fremont CA where Toyota makes the Tacoma, Corolla, Matrix and Vibe is a UAW plant."

    I thought the Corolla was made in Canada but I could be wrong.
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    My understanding is that it is made in several plants in and out of the US as is the Honda Civic. In any event, all plants in Canada are Unionized plants.
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    1) Weakening the Yen against the US dollar makes the imported Toyotas cheaper to buy in US dollars, which, if price is an issue, means more will be sold. I can buy 20% more of an imported Toyota at 120 yen to the dollar than I can at 100 yen to the dollar.

    2) The recalls were mostly for very superficial issues and will be significant only if the trend continues for an extended period.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    "2) The problem of weakening the yen is that it does exactly the opposite of what's intended. Explanation available if requested."

    Yes please explain.


    Right now the Yen is about 120 Y/ US$. The UAW would like it to go to 100/US$ or even 90/US$. What this does is is make imports less attractive. Say a vehicle costs 2,400,000 Yen to make in Japan. When it's imported to the US at 120/1 it costs $20000. If the currency was 100 Y / US$ then that vehicle would cost $24000 when imported here. The manufacturer would have to take a lesser profit or raise prices to keep the same margin as before. This is all good in the view of the UAW and the domestic manufacturers.

    However the concept of unintended consequences arises.

    This happened from the late 70's through the late 90's when the currency ratio went from 360 Y / US$ to the current level of 120 Y / US$. This was great for us manufacturers because imports cost 3 times what they did back in the 70's. It allowed all US manufacturers to be protected and to thrive all throughout the last 20 years of the century. ( c.f. massive profits at GM/F/C ). What also happened though? Well in the 70's there were no Asian transplant facilities here in the US. Now there's one or two new ones every year. Why?

    Well when the currency was devalued from when the US$ could buy 360 Yen to now where it can only buy 120 Yen this makes the cost of US labor, and trees and land and coal and steel and orange juice and EVERYTHING one third the price of what it would have been before. The cost of US labor is discounted by 67% so it makes all the sense in the world not to produce overseas but to build new facilities here in the US. These facilities do not hire UAW workers! Unintended consequences.

    Overall this is great for the economy and it shows. NA auto production has jumped by over 40% from 1985 to the present. However UAW membership has fallen from 1.5 million to 500,000! Unintended consequences.

    Overall the US Govt has done a fantastic job for the US economy, unfortunately it's been at the expense of the unionized labor force in the case of the auto industry.

    Yeah sales are increasing faster than the industry but Toyota has recalled alot of cars this year and their recalls have went up by alot in the past few years even though they(their recalls)were down last year from 2005 figures.

    Here are the actual figures from a report in the Detroit News. Link: Summary of Recent Recalls - Detroit News

    Maker : GM ... DCX ... Ford ... Toy
    2004 .. 10.8 ... 5.8 ... 5.8 .. 1.1 ( Millions of vehicles )
    2005 ... 5.0 ... 1.1 ... 6.0 .. 2.2
    2006 ... 1.6 ... 2.4 ... 1.7 .. 0.8
    Totals 17.4 ... 9.3 ... 13.5 .. 4.1

    There is really nothing that can be gathered from these stats because recalls all relate to vehicles made in the past. One bad year ( GM ) skews all the figures.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Plant does NOT assemble the matrix. Its made in Canada !
    The Vibe is assembled in mexico ?..........
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    That was a very good response on the Yen. However I think the statement that no import plants are unionized is inaccurate and needs clarification. My understanding is that all of the Canadian plants are unionized, most all of the Northern US plants are unionized, and most all of the Southern US plants are non unionized. This follows the same pattern as other industries in those regions.

    Additionally, the idea that the US has done very well on managing the economy will not hold up under scrutiny. It has done well for the wealthy and privileged - it has betrayed American workers and the poor.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Currently producin Corollas, Tacoma and Vibe (but not Matrix.)
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "That was a very good response on the Yen. However I think the statement that no import plants are unionized is inaccurate and needs clarification. My understanding is that all of the Canadian plants are unionized, most all of the Northern US plants are unionized, and most all of the Southern US plants are non unionized. This follows the same pattern as other industries in those regions."

    To go further into it I think the plant in Normal, Illinois that makes the Mitsubishi Galant, Mitsu Outlander, Mitsu Eclipse, and Endeavor SUV is unionized I think. They used to make the Chrysler Sebring in that plant but I;m not aure if they do anymore since Chrysler and Mitsu's relationship has dissolved basically.

    Also the plant that has had the Mazda 626/Mazda 6 is unionized I think to by the UAW because Ford owns that plant.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    So what that means is their is $2,000-$13,000 artificial profit advantage for the Japanese resulting in Billions extra in profit. Yeah it's good for the consumer but bad for the domestic workers and especially my union brothers and sisters at the UAW as the playing field from this creates an even more un-level playing field. :cry:

    Rocky
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You will have to explain this more rockylee. It doesn't apply at all to vehicles made here in the US unless you're talking about 'paper profits' which all analysts know mean little or nothing.

    Are you speaking just about imported products or all import and transplant products? That's two entirely different subjects.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Kd,

    I was just talking about imported products pal. ;)

    Rocky
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    rockylee: So what that means is their is $2,000-$13,000 artificial profit advantage for the Japanese resulting in Billions extra in profit. Yeah it's good for the consumer but bad for the domestic workers and especially my union brothers and sisters at the UAW as the playing field from this creates an even more un-level playing field.

    Even if we do accept those figures - which I treat with a healthy dose of skepticism, as I can guess the source - we still have about 17 million new car buyers benefiting, versus about 350,000 U.S. auto workers hurting. And 17 million is much bigger than 350,000.

    And a good portion of the hardship experienced by the 350,000 is self-inflicted, as their union clings to outmoded work rules and job classifications, tolerates a much higher daily absentee rate in domestic factories (10-12 percent at GM, Ford and Chrysler versus 1-2 percent at the transplants, according to Fortune) and has refused to make meaningful co-payments for health benefits (as virtually everyone else does).
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I think Toyotas troubles are a bit far fetched. The Tundra appears to be doing very well in it's segment, I have seen a few of them here in N.E. already. In fact, my boss is looking at one to tow his EVO track-car this spring and that decision was influenced by another guy here at work who bought on last month. Word is definitely getting out about how awesome the new T-100 is.

    Another buddy of mine is even more proof that the Tundra has hit the sweetspot for truck buyers. He is a service manager for a GMC-Pontiac-Buick dealer in NH and just this past weekend he brought by a new Tundra. That means something when a GM employee buys an "evil"-Toyota truck to drive to and from work in!

    Don't worry though GM fans, his wife has a Suburban to drive around so GM is still in the family (for now) ;)

    I'd say that Toyota is doing just fine, and I bet 2007 is going to bring a few more success stories (based on past history of the models) with the redesigned Corolla and Highlander. The volume of those (2) alone could put Toyota over the top in worldwide sales so how could that be "Troubles"? :blush:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    So the bottom line is the dollar and just because 350,000 workers are insignificant to 17 million vehicles sold you'd rather get that extra cheap deal on your camcord at the expense of good people. This type of mentality is why we are failing. "As long as my pocketbook is good screw everyone else" You will cry foul when you no longer can afford to live because our money is worthless but then you will have to look yourself in the mirror and your ideology on life. :sick:

    Rocky
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Rocky,

    I won't dispute those numbers on imported vehicls ranging from the Fit/Yaris at $10000 or so to the Land Cruiser at $53000+.

    Aditional questions arise then...

    Do the profits from these vehicles end up back in Japan?
    or ..
    Are they just 'reported' back to Japan as profit with the actual moneies kept here to finance new investments?

    Unless we work at Toyota's HQ there's no way of knowing.

    But then the question arises 'How to go about weakening the US$ and strengthening the J-Yen?'. then.. 'How much?'

    I believe that from your prior posts from the UAW that they would like to weaken the US$ vs the Yen by about 20% which would make imports 20% more expensive.

    The occurence of 'unintended consequences' then arises. Weaken the US$ by 20% and that will make investment here in the US even that more attractive. Overall this is good for the US economy in that it attracts new investment and increases our output. It may not be very good for Michigan though. It might be very good for Arkansas or N Carolina or Mississippi though.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You will cry foul when you no longer can afford to live because our money is worthless but then you will have to look yourself in the mirror and your ideology on life

    Now here is precisely the problem facing the UAW proponents of this 'currency' question.

    In order to accomplish what you want, to strengthen the J-Yen vs the US$ thereby raising the prices of imported and eliminating their 'excess profits from currency manipulation' the only way to do this is to make the US currency worthless ( actually worth less ).

    The UAW wants the Japanese yen to be moved from 120 Y/US$ to under 100 Y/US$.

    What this means in laymens terms is that right now the US$ can buy 120 JY. The UAW wants the US$ to be 'worth less' so that in the future it can only buy 100 JY. To take this to the logical extreme then the best for the UAW would be that the US$ should become actually worth nothing.

    This would eliminate all imports of every kind.

    You cannot have a strong US currency and fight imports at the same time. It's mathematically impossible if you only use currency manipulation.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I don't want to neccessarily weaken the dollar anymore kdspyder, but I think Japan, should have to give the true value of it's currency as they buy other currency to keep the yen really low. This is not a democrat ideology from me as many independents and even a few republicans have admitted this is a problem. Ross Perot, saw this as a problem back in 92' also. Many folks laughed at him but the unions nor I laughed at Ol' Ross, as when the unions crunched the numbers they saw Ross Perot as right. Their was some economist that saw benefits of NAFTA, a weak yen/yaun, that many thought would create even more jobs here in the U.S.

    Yes many jobs were created in the short-term but gradually those jobs were replaced by no jobs or low paying jobs and all the good paying jobs especially in manufactoring and some service sectors went over sea's. We lost alone almost 4 million manufactoring jobs and those don't include the millions more that would of been added over time to our economy.

    I don't know what the ultimate fix is for making the Japanese and chinese to give the true value of their currency? We could see a trade war created as we might manipulate our currency further making European imports ultra expensive but the Japanese have annouced a couple weeks ago they feel their currency is over valued still and want to manipulate even more. I predict the Japanese will manipulate their currency even further as the Bush administration won't care because they have other issues to deal with and domestic issues aren't at the top of the priority list right now. This is the perfect time if the Japanese are going to do this to do it it now while we are a sleep at the wheel. I know some members of congress are making noise about this including a few running for the 08' presidency. I as a democrat was happy to see Duncan Hunter, make noise about this issue and hope he gets the republican nomination as he see a problem. He could end up with my vote if my party nominates the wrong person for the job. I fear Duncan, doesn't have the money from the big donors to last? :sick:

    kdspyder, I know you and I often disagree but I'm very happy you and I can agree on this issue which is very important one that we have a problem. I'm not claiming to have the answers but that is why I pay tax dollars to my government officials of both party's to solve these hard problems. ;)

    Thanks,

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    What's the answer pal ? I don't know what we can do to solve this issue but put pressure on the Japanese to give a more realistic value to their currency so we don't lower ours any further making some imports way to expensive to own?

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    At this point, Rocky, it is time for you to read up on the Plaza Accord.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In answer to both your posts...

    The solution that you are proposing is the same. Let's agree that by mutual consent that the Japanese govt 'agrees' to give a 'realistic valuation' of their currency.

    What this means in real life terms is that they begin to buy the Yen on the currency markets and selling US$. They are unloading their stockpiles of TBills etc and buying back their own currency the Yen. This accomplishes the goal of making the Yen more attractive because they are buying it up. It's the same as a company buying back it's stock to drive up the price. It's done all the time.

    But what did they use to accomplish it? They took their stockpiled US$ units and dumped them on the market to pay for the Yen. This additional supply of US$ drives down the value of our currency - making it 'worth less'.

    Thus now our US$ can only buy 100 yen and imports are 20% more expensive.

    But.... now our buildings and orange groves and beef and steel and autos and houses and land and labor are also 20% less expensive. Say you were an investor. Today you are looking to invest in the US with a labor cost of 3600 y/hr( $30/hr ) and a fixed investment of 600 Million Yen ( $5 Million ). Tomorrow you wake up and find that your currency is 20% stronger than yesterday so now it looks to you that to buy that $30 of US labor it's only going to cost you 3000 yen/hr out-of-pocket and your required investment is only 500 Million Yen iso 600 Million Yen.

    Bingo!!!! We hit the lottery!!!

    We save 100 Million Yen right away and then we save 600 Y/hr for every hour worked. How fast can we build in the US?
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    "And a good portion of the hardship experienced by the 350,000 is self-inflicted, as their union clings to outmoded work rules and job classifications, tolerates a much higher daily absentee rate in domestic factories (10-12 percent at GM, Ford and Chrysler versus 1-2 percent at the transplants, according to Fortune) and has refused to make meaningful co-payments for health benefits (as virtually everyone else does)."
    ==========================================================

    What a bizarre and misinformed attack on your fellow Americans. Are you signing up with Al Quida as well? Your misinformation is far more deadly and destructive to this country than a hundred collapsed buildings at the hands of nut jobs.

    As you well know the transplants are also significantly union shops here and in Canada. The difference, if any, (listening to Fortune is like listening to child molester who want a preschool built next door), can be attributed to management.

    Having spent some time in management I can say that they are more absorbed in lining their own pockets and treating their workers like garbage than they are about building cars, or anything else that we used to build here. When you find yourself on the street as we "race to the bottom" in part by destroying unions that built this country, you will be looking around for someone to help you out and we will all have been used up and buried by then. Tick, tock, tick tock my friend!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I read it and learned a little bit but most of it I already knew not in detail but knew from watching economist, news, internet.

    So the bottom line is their is strong trade restrictions with the Asians. The Eurpeans due buy our goods but not in the volume needed to off-set the Asian trade deficit. Our major Asian trading partners have major structural restrictive barriers set in place to make it impossible for U.S. manufactors to export american made products. This is something I've been arguing with brightness, over but he says they have free open markets free of these barriers. So who's right him or Wikipedia? ;)

    So I read it gave you my brief $0.02 and I'm curious what does it tell you bumpy?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    hypnosis44,

    He will be covered up in newspapers as one poster put it next to Toyota workers that are fired. Hey many of us will be shairing the same cardboard box so we will have plenty of one on one time to rehash the past with grbeck. ;)

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    what does it tell you bumpy?

    That the trade imbalance between the US and Japan is rooted primarily in disparate cultural attitudes on both sides of the Pacific, and currency manipulation and/or browbeating won't change that. Devaluing the yen is not a silver bullet for anyone.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Okay, but how do we fix it since the Japanese/Chinese are enjoying this luxury of dumping cheap imports on our shores making our manufactors uncompettive even if they offer a quality product ?

    If you can answer that question without disturbing the peace I'll nominate you for the Nobel Prize. :P

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The answer is that you don't. You get in by "consulting" for the makers of cheap imports, building up an affinity for your "value-added" products among wealtheir consumers, and finding under-utilized markets that you can quickly move into. This, of course, doesnt help the UAW much.
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    "You cannot have a strong US currency and fight imports at the same time. It's mathematically impossible if you only use currency manipulation."

    ============================================================

    Maybe you do not need a "strong" US currency as you have stated it. What is the definition of "strong"? These are all relative terms without a bench mark anywhere in the universe! Maybe our currency is twice as strong as it should be, maybe only half as strong.

    One consequence of these currency fluctuations over the long haul will be to create a crises and a full blown need for, finally, a universal currency which will at least make the mechanism more transparent.

    Examples of this logical progression are the Euro in current times, and the dollar after the American revolution when there were 14 currencies in play in the newly formed Union.

    In the meantime....
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    "The answer is that you don't. You get in by "consulting" for the makers of cheap imports, building up an affinity for your "value-added" products among wealtheir consumers, and finding under-utilized markets that you can quickly move into. This, of course, doesnt help the UAW much."
    ===========================================================

    Lots of jargon straight out of Fortune magazine and then a recommendation for surrender. Americans used to be tough and resilient; now we say die.

    What the UAW along with the AFL and the SEIU group can do is organize workers at those offshore plants to even the playing field. What can also be done is for the US and all developed nations to launch a concerted effort at the UN to steer the market place toward long range goals of survivability and to minimize exploitation in anti democratic regions.

    Fortune will not understand the meaning of the post - its values are purely greed and self absorption - it recognizes no others.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    hypnosis44,

    atleast we have another poster roaming these forums that gets it !!!! ;) BTW- Good Post Pal :)

    Rocky
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Previously Rocky was bemoaning a 'worthless' currency.

    I've posted this chart several times in the past and it's amazingly descriptive.
    St Louis Fed Res US$ vs Japanese Yen
    Since the late 70's and especially since the Plaza Accord the US Currency has fallen by 67% versus the Japanese Yen. This means that US manufacturers and US labor were 3 times less expensive than their Japanese competitors in the world market place.

    How much of an advantage do we need?

    Actually manufacturers all through the 80's and 90's got fat and happy, shareholders got fat and happy, state / local governments got fat and happy and unions got fat and happy. They also allowed more flexible, leaner and lower cost competitors to come into their home market and now they are too old and slow and arthritic to react very quickly.
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