Toyota on the mend?

210delray · July 2006

...I think this (Toyota recalls) is much ado about nothing.

Like the latest one, in which USA Today (I think) showed a photo of the current generation Prius, but when you read halfway down the article, you find that the recalled vehicles include the 2001-02 Echo and Prius, that is the prior generation.

mirth · July 2006

...this particular recall is much ado about nothing in the US, it's pretty big worldwide. And add it to a number of other major recalls from Toyota recently and I would say you had "something".

210delray · July 2006

...but I have had 3 Camrys (2 currently), and they are all by far the most reliable cars I've owned (along with my '98 Nissan Frontier), going back more than 3 decades.

scott1256 · July 2006

Sounds like management realizes there is an image problem building for the Toyota brand.

"The world-class quality that we've built is our lifeline," President Katsuaki Watanabe told a mid-year news conference dominated by questions over Toyota's recent quality woes.

"There will be no growth without an improvement in quality."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-07-20-toyota-quality_x.htm

nortsr1 · July 2006

supposedly hurting Toyota...it sure isn't showing up in their sales.

ron_m · August 2006

supposedly hurting Toyota...it sure isn't showing up in their sales.

Agreed. I believe that it is due to the longevity of Toyota's seemingly impeccable quality reputation up until the last few years. A lot of Toyota's recalls haven't affected vehicles that were sold in North America; which is a tremendous portion of their worldwide market share. There are countless numbers of people in the U.S. that still feel as though a bad Toyota is better than the best Ford Motor Co. or General Motors product. I'm not so sure that they aren't correct.

Toyota has always been pretty good about standing behind their products--with the one exception that I heard about recently where they tried to cover up a major design flaw that lead to a safety issue. The Japanese authorities are even involved in an investigative probe into the company over their reluctance to disclose information about the problematic vehicles. This particular issue definitely looks bad on the company, but I don't even think that this situation will taint Toyota's 'image' all that much in the U.S.--except with the die-hard domestic vehicle fans that already have their minds made up about Toyota and other "foreign" brands. All I know is that I am hanging on to my 2002 Lexus IS300, mainly due to the fact that it hasn't given me any trouble at all thus far. In fact, nothing that even remotely resembles a quality issue has cropped up yet. The only other car that I have ever owned that has been this good to me was also made by Toyota Motor Co. It was a new 1985 Toyota MR2. That little car turned out to be bulletproof--and I ran the absolute crap out of it for quite some time.

Ron M.

Karen_S · August 2006

A reporter seeks to interview current and former Texans with opinions about the recent Toyota recalls. Please reply to jfallon@edmunds.com by Tuesday, August 8, 2006 with your daytime contact info, a description of your Texas connection and a few words about whether you think the Toyota recalls will affect the Toyota brand.

rockylee · August 2006

I think it will affect Toyota some. However Toyota, is still percieved by most of the brain washed public that their cars are still flawless. Co-workers and friends of mine that aren't car buffs didn't even know Toyota had recalls until I told them. :surprise:

Rocky

mirth · August 2006

Co-workers and friends of mine that aren't car buffs didn't even know Toyota had recalls until I told them.

They probably didn't know Ford had recalls recently either. That's not a perception thing, it's a generation not reading the news thing.

rockylee · August 2006

I agree many people my age don't read the news as much as I or you do. They get most of their news from TV, or Radio, which doesn't make recalls a top story issue, especially when it's a company like Toyota. If it would of been GM, the story would of been a top story, and the bias media, would slam GM.

Rocky

scott1256 · August 2006

Rocky, this time the Toyota recalls are front and center in the news. IMO negative coverage of Toyota is just starting.

The press must have decided to cover Toyota's problems the way they cover the troubles of other auto companies.

Read the article linked below - it was published this week. A year ago you would have been more likely to see an ivory billed woodpecker than a newspaper criticizing Toyota so bluntly.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4178250?source=rss

rockylee · August 2006

scott,

Thanx for the link pal. It's about time somebody plays fair in the negative news game.

Rocky

scott1256 · August 2006

success means the media will now target it as an 'evil corporate monster' as with Microsoft, Wal Mart, GM, IBM etc.

Rather than having some lionized and some demonized, it would be nice to see more even media treatment of all.

By the way: I notice more positive press about GM these days than for many, many years. It seems the media is abandoning their 'everything about GM is evil' template, at least for the moment.

rockylee · August 2006

Well maybe the press is feeling sorry for GM, and years of abuse which alot of the times was over the top. I do think Rick Wagoner, does show some compassion and the job losses hit's at home in the long run. Perhaps people will someday wish again good things for their neighbors, instead of being hateful. :sick:

Rocky

logic1 · August 2006

is reporting (Article is available on line, but you have to be a paid subscriber to read it, sorry.) that Toyota is considering consolidating its product line in response to increased recalls.

I think this is one more example of something I and some others here and elsewhere have argued elsewhere: Designing and manufacturing mass market automobiles is not easy. The only way to do it well is to limit wherever possible the number of things that can go wrong.

GM, Ford and to a lessor extend Chrysler pre-merger, used to approach the market with a shot gun. Any possible product niche was exploited, lest someone else get market share. The gremlin in this was always going to be quality.

Honda and Toyota rose to prominence in the US on a business plan that had them using two (Honda) and three (Toyota) basic platforms respectively. It worked. Keeping things simple meant keeping them good.

Toy lately got the market share bug big time. It started using the tried and true GM and Ford method: make something every possible piece of the market could ever want. The result is quality glitches.

I think as consumers we have to ask ourselves: do we want something uniquely designed for our particular lifestyle, or do we want to find a way to make a tried and true design work.

Honda never went away from the limited platform model. GM is slowly adopting the model. Ford may be doing so as well. I think Toy has decided it does not want to leave either.

nippononly · August 2006

It's a toughie, isn't it? We do want the reliability, we don't want recalls, but if every manufacturer achieves those goals by maximizing component and platform sharing among its own models, the result is a bland market with little variety.

Look at Toyota, even with all the recalls: it makes like 19 models that all drive exactly like a Camry (Scions excepted), even the trucks. This was intentional on their part, of course, but it doesn't lend much "pizzazz" to their line-up. Ford is rapidly going to the same model - the next five years will see the culmination of that process - and in doing so I think it will achieve the same goal, except for the Mustang. Ick.

Funny to me is that the Scions are the least recalled of the Toyota models, and yet they are the exceptions to the "sameness" rule. Of course, their volume is also lower, which makes QC a little easier to rein in.

logic1 · August 2006

Funny to me is that the Scions are the least recalled of the Toyota models, and yet they are the exceptions to the "sameness" rule. Of course, their volume is also lower, which makes QC a little easier to rein in.

The Scions are tried and true as well though, aren't they? I understand Toyota has been using the platforms for a number of years before putting the cool little hatches and coupe on top.

But yeah, the choice is somewhat stark. GM, Ford (and a host of other makes long since dead) used to change models almost every other year. And they would make all sorts of really different creatures. But that was a culture where new car buyers would happily tell you they expect to sell before the thing reaches 50k miles.

If you want to go beyond to overarching socio-economic factors, compare a detailed map from the mid-1960s with one from today. One reason people did not worry about quality and reliability so much was they did not have to travel anywhere near as much as today.

priggly · August 2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5285196.stm

priggly · August 2006

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2006/08/25/toyota-recalls.html

jetjockg · August 2006

The reason the American public doesn't know about the poor quality of Toyota cars is because very few people know about it. TV,radio and local newspapers are reluctant to say bad things about a company that pays them ALOT of money for advertising. We have to call our local media and tell them whats going on. Spread the word! What have J D Powers and Consumer Reports been doing the past two years giving glowing reports about Toyota???

larsb · August 2006

What on earf are you talking about ? Toyota makes great cars, and have for years, and tey will keep it up....People who own or have owned Toyota cars know thhis to be true.

jetjockg · August 2006

Go to http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c6927/816 The truth is finally out. There is an ever expanding list of articles explaining how Toyota has increased it's recall rate 43 fold. Thats the 2002 rate times 43! This occurred mostly because they fired most of their experienced engineers. At the above address you will find the editorials and comments by Toyota owners

iluvmysephia1 · August 2006

Toyota fired most of their experienced engineers?

Why would they do that-to save money? Why does Toyota need to save money, either? I mean, how much money did they make last year? 10 billion dollars, or numbers somewhat in that ballpark?

Come on, Toyota. I hope they haven't fired their most experienced engineers or Toyota is going to get worse before they get better. Pay some close attention to this, it might just get hairy for everyone's favorite.

210delray · August 2006

No, Toyota didn't fire their most experienced engineers. You won't find a shred of evidence in that thread, because it's simply not true.

These recalls are being blown out of proportion too by those who'd like to bring Toyota down.

For example, the recall concerning stalling of Echo and Prius cars amounts to a relatively small number of 35,000 or so in the US, and these are 2001 and early 2002 models.

The FJ Cruiser recall was limited to only 9000 units. And the problem was their tires were damaged by improper installation onto the wheels. I've used a tire mounting machine, and I know it's easy to damage the bead area of the tire if you're not concentrating on the job.

Finally, let's take my personal examples: I've had a total of 3 Camrys in the last 9 years (2 currently). The '97 (which I sold in '04) was recalled ONCE, for a possible loose steering wheel. The '04 was also recalled ONCE, for possible improperly installed (twisted) side curtain airbags. Turns out on this one, my particular car was okay once the trim panels were removed to inspect the airbags.

That's it!

jetjockg · August 2006

The attached article describes what I said about the lack of qualified engineers.I am not trying to bring down Toyota. They are doing it themselves by not talking to their customers and not publishing their actual recall statistics.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4178250?source=rss

andy82471 · August 2006

To me recalls don't matter much as long as the company is proactive and taking care of their customers well, which FORD and GM hasn't done well in the past. As long as a car won't leave me stranded on the middle of the road I am satisfied; and Toyota is more likely to not get you stranded than the domestics.

krony · August 2006

I do agree with andy82471 in the sense that the true measure of any manufacturer is how they take care of customers when problems occur. In some senses Toyota could use this to build on their quality perception is they take care of their customers.

One can look at GM, Ford and Chrysler quality of the 70's and 80's and can see how Toyota, Honda and the others picked up customers fed up with buying sub-par quality. Today the Big 3 quality is inline with the industry but their quality perception still is a drag.

explorerx4 · August 2006

i very rarely see any car stranded on the side of the road.
one thing that bothers me is that for example, when honda has a transmission issue they repair and guarantee for a 100k. to me that is a cop out. their supposed reputation is to last for multiple 100k's.

nippononly · August 2006

So when Chrysler and Jeep owners in the 90s had transmission failures time and time again between 50 and 100K or even earlier, Chrysler shouldn't have had to do anything about this problem for their customers because their rep was NOT that they lasted for multiple 100Ks?

Ditto Ford owners with the engines with problematic gaskets, and on and on?

Just wondering how far to extend that line of thinking. Indeed, Toyota and Hondas have the rep of lasting well beyond 150K miles in many cases, and I have experienced that repeatedly, but they have NEVER warranted their vehicles to match that rep. I don't think a manufacturer should be called upon to warrant ther vehicles to the extent of their "rep". It's a rather nebulous concept.

nippononly · August 2006

If they removed your post, they will have sent you an e-mail to let you know. And that's usually because you broke one of the TownHall rules.

c2rosa · August 2006

Last year in the U.S.  its largest market by volume  Toyota recalled 2.38 million vehicles, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. That's more than the 2.26 million it sold. I guess they're mortal after all....

scott1256 · August 2006

delay some new models so they can get quality problems under control.

It seems like there were reports of freezing all new model releases across the board. They have decided not to do that.

"Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe denied yesterday that the company had decided to delay models across the board. He said the development of individual vehicles would be decided on a case-by-case basis.

"We try to affirm each process," Watanabe said at a demonstration of new safety features west of Tokyo. "And in that process, some may be delayed, and some may be on time." "

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.toyota26aug26,0,2689624.st- ory?track=rss

andy82471 · August 2006

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/autos/content/aug2006/bw20060825_776515.htm

AUGUST 25, 2006

Autos
By Matt Vella

Toyota's Cuts: No Bleeding Likely
The announced production delays underscore quality problems but probably won't have a major impact on revenues

Just as domestic auto manufacturers, most notably Ford, are desperately trying to accelerate turnaround plans, Toyota (TM) may be ready to slow down a bit. The company's president said on Aug. 25 that the delay of some future models could be on the table to provide additional time to iron out reputation-dampening quality issues.

The Japanese giantwhich nabbed second place in July behind General Motors (GM) by outselling Ford Motor (F) in the U.S.said potential delays would be decided on a model-by-model basis and would not affect products across the board. But the public admission of fault is emblematic of a long-coming shift in company posture toward quality issues.

An ongoing series of high-profile recalls has focused industry attention on the potentially troubling underside of Toyota's trailblazing growth. In the U.S., the market many see harboring the most potential for future growth, Toyota recalled 2.38 million vehicles last year and 628,000 so far this year, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

In Japan, meanwhile, the number of recalled vehicles has jumped 56% since 2002, to more than 1 million in 2006. Published reports have suggested that another six-figure recall could be waiting in the wings in the U.S.

SALES STILL STRONG. The recalls and quality reports have yet to affect Toyota's bottom line. The company's financial position is stronger than ever.

In the first half of this year, global sales rose 10.4%, to 4.26 million, while GM's fell 2.3%, to 4.60 million. Toyota's operating profits account for one-third of the combined global profits of all the world's auto makers. What's more, executives are sitting on nearly $20 billion in cash reserves.

Industry observers and analysts say that while some accounts of the effects on the company's sterling reputation for quality have been exaggerated, Toyota is seriously auditing its design and production processes to curb future quality issues. Joe Langley, a market analyst with the Northville (Mich.) market research firm CSM Worldwide, says: "There's no doubt that they've been publicly shamed by it. There is a fire, but they're putting it out."

Toyota's mea culpa, consisting of public apologies in Japan and today's announcement of potential corrective strategies, indicates increasing frankness vis-à-vis quality issues. Wes Brown at Iceology, a Los Angeles consumer research firm, says: "This is Toyota trying to be proactive, cognizant of public sentiment. If they want to maintain good sentiment, they realize they can't be so secretive anymore."

GROWING PAINS. Analysts familiar with Toyota's production procedures say the problems may indicate strains on human resources within the company, a result of unyielding growth. Langley notes: "They've been so taxed, they haven't been able to send as many people to work with suppliers before launches."

Speculation about delays that could stretch Toyota's famously short production cycles by three, six, or even 12 months revolve around the coming versions of the Avalon sedan, Sienna minivan, and Solara sports coupe. But analysts point out that those cars are due in the three- to four-year time frame and that sales of current versions are still healthy.

Toyota has confirmed the delay of some highly anticipated models due much sooner, though. A new version of the hot-selling Corolla small sedan has been set back twice, partly on the unexpected strength of Honda's competing redesigned Civic.

Toyota's Tundra pickup truck, finally poised to take on Ford's bread-and-butter F-Series, was delayed into next year. Brown says: "They're looking at the process, asking if it's design, engineering, a combination, or quality checks of cars coming off the line."

GOOD NEWS. Likely most important to company officials, analysts, and consumers alike is that recalls have yet to affect significantly Toyota's standings in quality surveys. Neal Oddes, director of product research and analysis at Westlake Village (Calif.)-based J.D. Power and Associates, says that his research shows Toyota improving initial vehicle quality by about 15% since 2003.

Although Toyota still trails Porsche, Lexus, and Hyundai in the rankings, two of the best five brands at the top of the list are built by the company. "I'm sorry, but as far as Toyota's concerned, I've only got good news for you," jokes Oddes.

Toyota's reserve of goodwill with the American auto-buying public may indeed still run deep. It appears that, to maintain those reserves, the company is beginning to acknowledge publicly nagging recalls and quality problems. After all, admission is the first step on the path toward recovery.

Vella is a reporter for BusinessWeek.com in New York

andy82471 · August 2006

GOOD NEWS. Likely most important to company officials, analysts, and consumers alike is that recalls have yet to affect significantly Toyota's standings in quality surveys. Neal Oddes, director of product research and analysis at Westlake Village (Calif.)-based J.D. Power and Associates, says that his research shows Toyota improving initial vehicle quality by about 15% since 2003.

So despite what the naysayers are saying about TOYOTA's supposed slip in quality, the reality is that it is still better than the rest in terms of quality. As long as Toyota keeps doing well in JDP and CR survey, it is unlikely their reputation is going to suffer.

logic1 · August 2006

Why all bold?

Do you think we are unable to follow your point unless you blare it at us.

andy82471 · August 2006

No, the bold is because it is from an article and not my personal point of view.

Kirstie_H · August 2006

OK... but it does make it harder to read. Thanks for posting the article, though!

andy82471 · August 2006

You are welcome Kirstie

. I just thought it was important to have a fair and balanced discussion about the issue.

logic1 · August 2006

Italics and/or quotation marks do the job without hurting the eyes.

Kirstie_H · August 2006

Now that the "Posting 101" lesson is over, let's return to Toyota quality - thanks!

anythngbutgm · August 2006

Well, visiting other forums outside of Edmunds you'd think GM was on its way back to 60% market share and Toyota is about to go out of business. This recent spat of recalls is certainly giving fuel to that fire... :mad:

nippononly · August 2006

if Toyota INTENTIONALLY slows down its own sales growth now to be sure of its quality control. For instance, it has been widely speculated that Toyota will pass GM in global sales in the next couple of years, but if Toyota slows down, GM may continue its reign for a while longer...

andy82471 · August 2006

That is unlikely. Unless Toyota slows down drastically and GM increases its output significantly. Most analyst agrees either sometime next year or 2008 is when Toyota topples GM.

scott1256 · August 2006

So despite what the naysayers are saying about TOYOTA's supposed slip in quality, the reality is that it is still better than the rest in terms of quality

Actually, J.D. Power has Toyota ranked 5th for dependability and 4th for initial quality. This is still better than most brands.

All these recalls will affect Toyota's image. We have seen similar situations in the past with GM, K Mart, IBM and others. When a corporation has any sort of trouble the media has a way of making every problem a news event.

mirth · August 2006

...you want to slice it, Toyota slowing down its product development cycle to conquer quality gremlins is not good. Toyota has been touted as a model of efficiency because of the advanced tech they use to speed up their cycle to 2 years or so as opposed to everyone else's 3-4 years. Apparently, it's not quite up to snuff - the simulators are missing things.

Toyota's still on top, no doubt. But they are taking a step backwards while everyone else is going forward.

logic1 · August 2006

I don't see as being bad or good.

It is just a fact of the business in automobile manufacturing. Making autos is complex. Engineering is complex. There are multiple suppliers.

Like many companies in the midst of a very successful growth, Toyota began to believe its own press that it could do no wrong. Toyota began to deviate from the process that brought it so successfully to where it was.

Taking back what I said above, I see the development as positive. The market is in a place where it has to decide whether it wants an entirely unique car for every possible segment with the resulting quality risks, or does it want variations of platforms that allow greater quality control.

I do not think the auto world is at a point where it where you can have both. As the market really seems to prefer the latter - at least the mass market - Ferrari buyers will accept technical limitations for the chance to have the perfect driving thrill - then we have to begin to accept that car companies cannot throw out a different model whenever our whim seeks it.

mariner7 · August 2006

Old Japanese saying:

"A journey of 1000 miles down the slippery slope starts with a first fall."

And do we ever have a first fall!!!

Don't give me that Toyota's being proactive stuff! How do you hide recalling more than 2m in America and 1M in Japan? They can't, so they do the only thing and acknowledge and apologize!

There's evidence that Toyota tried its best to hide it. NYT reported 2 Toy executives were being investigated for criminal misconduct in this affair by the Japanese government. The accusation was they knew about this for the last EIGHT years!

nippononly · August 2006

"There's evidence that Toyota tried its best to hide it. NYT reported 2 Toy executives were being investigated for criminal misconduct in this affair by the Japanese government. The accusation was they knew about this for the last EIGHT years!"

Let's correct this paragraph: two Toyota officials are being investigated for NON-CRIMINAL charges in Japan, related to one incident involving the crash of a Toyota Hilux Surf, where there was a suspicion that steering components were to blame (hence the recall on old 4Runners and even older pick-ups last year). The investigation is occurring because there was evidence that the steering had a known fault, and these two good people (ahem! :-<) ignored this evidence, and went with the design as it already was.

I owned one of the affected trucks out to 220K miles - no problems there. Toyota recalled my truck anyway, and put brand new tie rods on a 16-year-old 200K truck - certainly above and beyond the NHTSA's requirements.

I would certainly encourage Toyota to slow down its production and expansion at this juncture, and get things back under control. If treading water to fix QC glitches means a year or two of just-average profits and "only" a 14% market share in the U.S., then so be it.

hypnosis44 · August 2006

Toyota's denial of problems extended all the way down to the dealer level. I took delivery of a 2005 Sienna XLE AWD that had so many problems I thought I was driving a Yugo. The dealer refused to admit even the most obvious of them. I finally made them eat the vehicle, no cost too me, or face an embarrassing law suit. If they had acknowledged the problems and at least worked with me on them I would have kept the car! (I was a mechanic for 15 years which gave me a small edge on the smoke they were blowing.)

I may look at the 2007 Sienna, being a slow learner and all.

scott1256 · August 2006

I would certainly encourage Toyota to slow down...and get things back under control.

That's the right approach, Nippon. The media believes they have a 'big story' on their hands with Toyota's quality troubles.

In our 24 hour media culture repetition shapes opinion. That's unfair, but it's a reality big business has to contend with.

Toyota can't let this "Toyota quality is slipping" narrative gain media traction. It won't get better on its own.

Toyota on the mend?

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