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Resale price means nothing unless you consider the original purchase price. What if originally the Civic cost $2400+ more than the Protege? Not at all out of the question, since the Protege often had incentives and the Civic did not.
2003 models, 4-cyl, good condition, 45,000 miles
Mazda 6i - $9,960 (very good)
Honda Accord LX - $11,835(even better!)
Chevy Malibu - $5,405 (yikes)
The only point these numbers make is that Mazda as a whole delivers marginally lower resale value. This is not a huge difference in my opinion, not enough to sway everyone from Mazda. It is just a point in Honda's favor. Hey, it could always be worse, you could drive a Chevy at trade in time!
*Sorry I went off topic to prove my point. I've got that out of my system. I'm out for the night, so have a good weekend!
Resale price means nothing unless you consider the original purchase price. What if originally the Civic cost $2400+ more than the Protege? Not at all out of the question, since the Protege often had incentives and the Civic did not.
Believe me, at 5 years old, the Civic design had dealer incentives (not highly advertised) and LOW (for the time) interest rates. (We shopped the when our 1998 was rear-ended, we got an Accord instead).
2000 Mazda Protege ES AUTOMATIC in GOOD condition
$4,375
2000 Honda Civic EX Automatic in GOOD condition
$6,765
$2400 is a lot of money in the economy car game.
The MSRP of the 2000 Civic EX was $1500 higher than the Protege ES. So that $2400 difference is really $900.
I'll admit, the red lights are a bit loud to me. Thankfully the dimmer helps a lot in that respect. White on black or even blue or green backlighting would be cool to me, softer on the eyes. Mazda thinks the red is sportier and sounds like a lot of people agree from what I've read on various sites. Perhaps it's me getting older, too, but that's the one thing I'd change on my 3 if I could. I can certainly live with it, but wouldn't necessarily choose it.
The checked seat pattern was one of the things that actually drew me to the 3. Even though the Winning Blue exterior was my favorite color, it only had the blue/black checked seats. I went with Titanium Gray to get the red/black checked interior (or the UGA interior option, as I call it).
I will say this, Mazda and Honda are two of the most rigid carmakers when it comes to interior/exterior color combinations. You really don't get much of a choice in the matter. The only Civic you get to choose interior color on is the Royal Blue, which offers either the ivory or gray. Every other exterior has an "assigned" interior. Mazda is the same way, except on s Touring models you can choose between the "assigned" checkered fabric or black leather.
It worked out for me in the Mazda because I LOVE black interior. I'm sure there are buyers who would like another color, though.
I've always heard that Honda does this to simplify their manufacturing process, which I suppose makes sense. I wonder if they will start offering more options as competition continues to increase? I also wonder why the heck they're offering a choice just on the Royal Blue color. Perhaps it's a test?
1. Civic
5. Civic Hybrid
6. Mazda3 i
I read that somewhere, too.....so I tried it with my polarized glasses and it's simply not true (in fairness, I don't have a Hybrid, I have the EX Sedan, so maybe that's the difference?). At least not with my glasses (and yes, they ARE polarized...I paid a premium to make sure that was done). I didn't notice any difference in the appearance of the speedo (or radio display, which I think is what I heard became invisible with polarized glasses), other than it being a bit darker because of the shade of the lenses. Has anyone that reads this and actually owns a Civic had this happen? Can you not read the insturments (any of them) if you wear polarized glasses?
Warner
Ditto....I'd like to read it, too.
Thanks ctalk
Warner
Here's the Civic's detailed scores:
Civic:
Highs: Powertrain refinement, fuel economy, fit and finish, crash-test results, cabin storage.
Lows: Road noise.
Civic:
Automatic: acceleration: 3/5 (10.1 seconds to 60)
Manual: acceleration: 4/5 (8.6 seconds to 60)
Hybrid: acceleration: 2/5 (11.7 seconds to 60)
Automatic: transmission: 5/5
Manual: Transmission: 5/5
Hybrid: Transmission: 5/5
Routine Handling: 4/5
Emergency Handling: 4/5
Braking: 4/5
Headlights: 2/5
EX: Ride: 4/5
Hybrid: Ride: 3/5
Noise: 3/5
Driving Position: 4/5
Access: 4/5
Controls and Displays: 4/5
Fit and Finish: 4/5
EX: Trunk: 3/5
Hybrid: Trunk: 2/5
Front Seat: 4/5
Rear Seat: 3/5
Automatic: Fuel Economy: 4/5 (28 mpg)
Manual: Fuel Economy: 5/5 (31 mpg)
Hybrid: Fuel Economy: 5/5 (37 mpg)
I'll post Mazda3's detailed scores as soon as I get it.
It's much more fun on the dark side.
Works for BMW!
Mazda3 i:
Automatic: acceleration: 3/5 (9.6 seconds to 60)
Manual: acceleration: 4/5 (8.6 seconds to 60)
Automatic: transmission: 4/5
Manual: Transmission: 5/5
Routine Handling: 5/5
Emergency Handling: 4/5
Braking: 4/5
Headlights: 3/5
Ride: 3/5
Noise: 3/5
Driving Position: 4/5
Access: 4/5
Controls and Displays: 5/5
Fit and Finish: 4/5
Trunk: 2/5
Front Seat: 4/5
Rear Seat: 3/5
Automatic: Fuel Economy: 4/5 (27 mpg)
Manual: Fuel Economy: 4/5 (30 mpg)
I wonder whether Edmunds in putting Mazda3 s-hatch as No. 1 (vs 2006 Civic) has taken into adequate consideration of the long distance driving. Many owners of cars do drive quite long distances?
CR has never tested a Mazda3 s, so it very well could rate as high or ever higher than the Civic. The 3 s with side airbags could outscore all of them. Too bad they didn't include one in this test. But they did include an Impreza...just about the lowest volume car in the class except for the Suzuki Aerio. A good car, but not the car I'd think would be in a comparo with the Civic and Jetta.
The Honda was quieter on the highway than the 3 hatch, but the 3 sedan was a little quieter than the hatch. The sedan's trunk isolates some of the noise the hatch design lets in. A sacrifice I made for the space of the hatch bodystyle. I had the seats folded down a few days ago hauling some stuff from Ikea and, with them folded down, there is a lot of road noise. The Mazda's 17" 50-series tires are more performance oriented (and therefore noisier) than the Civic's 16".
Ford owns 33% of Mazda. The 2 companies share some resources and some vehicles, but not all. For example, it is common knowledge that the Mazda truck is a rebadged Ranger and the Tribute is a rebadged Escape. While the Mazda 6 is a shared platform, the Mazda 3 is a Mazda creation and product. Volvo and Ford are "borrowing" this platform from Mazda and not the other way around. That's why the 3 has a very good reliability rating.
For me if Mazda had a history of reliable (such as Honda) trouble free vehicles where the brakes didn't squeak on 50% of the cars and the AC could cool you down....sign me up.
I must say that I'm a big fan of CR's approach to auto testing lately. In the past, they would only buy one example of a model line at time. But now, when different powertrains or suspensions or drive systems are available, its not uncommon to see several models of the same line tested at once. For example, the test and full report of 3 different Civics. Thats something the car mags dont do....
People also forget that CR actually keeps these cars for 5 to 6 thousand miles, much more than a typical Edmunds.com test, for instance.
Allfiredup- I believe it was you who posted the CR analysis of fuel economy on another thread. Thanks, it was very long and technical, but I skimmed it and found it useful. Could you post it here as well?
~alpha
http://www.consumersunion.org/pdf/MPG-90205.pdf
i own a 99 civic ex MT. their EPA estimates show the manual getting 29 mpg (city) / 35 mpg (hwy). having driven it nearly 130K now, i've NEVER gotten 35 mpg regardless of condition or speed. i've tried driving at 65 mph on the hwy and the best i could achieve was 33 mpg. normal mixed driving 30/70 city/highway driving yields between 31-33 mpg. my worst highway mileage ever was 28 mpg when i drove to LA from San Fran cruising at approx 85 mph. my worst combined mileage ever was 26 mpg when i got stuck in a ton of stop-n-go rush hr traffic (60% stop-n-go / 40% freeway) which is below Honda's EPA city only estimates.
i'll be getting a Mazda 3 5dr soon so i'll be able to see how close or how far off the 3 is to their EPA claims.
from my experience so far, my honda has not achieved the EPA estimates...
I would expect the new Civic to be in the same ballpark, but there are so many factors that affect mileage.
It must be partly due to seat width, b/c I am 6'5" and the Civic seat was perfectly fine to me. I weigh about 185 though, so I don't mind firm bolstering in the middle back, etc...
Side note: I live in Birmingham, and the longest Atlanta trip I've ever managed was 150 miles.
Yeah the Mazda truck is a rebadged Ranger but the Tribute Mazda did develop some of that car. Mazda just didn't take the Ford emblem off the Tribute and slap their own emblem on it. Actually I think the 3 is based off the Ford Focus platform but Mazda did tweak the platform for the 3. The 3 is built in Japan and Mazda cars usually have good or equal relianility ratings to Honda and Toyota when Mazda'a are built in Japan. I would just avoid buying any Mazda car in its first year of bodystyle: The RX-8 and 5 have had their problems even though they are built in Japan. I do have faith that the Mazda's plant in Hiroshima have worked out the bugs on the RX-8 and will work out the bugs on the 5.
I don't get why people eliminate Mazda from their search of cars just because of their affiliation with Ford. Wouldn't you do your research before eliminating a car from your search? I do own a Honda product currently and did own a Mazda before so I am being honest with my post here.
2003 models, 4-cyl, good condition, 45,000 miles
Mazda 6i - $9,960 (very good)
Honda Accord LX - $11,835(even better!)
Chevy Malibu - $5,405 (yikes)"
I think the 6 in 03 had a 2000-2500 dollar factory rebate still that is still a pretty good showing for the 6. I think the 6 sells good as a used car(1 or 2 years old.) The Malibu you would have to keep that car 10 years in order not to lose any money from the looks of your numbers. I wonder if dealer discounts factor into the resale value of a car. Then again in the case of the Malibu that was the last year of that bodystyle for that generation of Malibu and I think GM dumped alot of 03 Malibu's to fleets.
Other factors are more key. Like, how about mpg? That actually should have more weight that performance instead it was treated little more than as a footnote.
You can't use the same weighting for rating corvettes/porsche/whatever as for economy cars and expect the conclusions to be meaningful to the majority of consumers that are in the market for this type of vehicle.
If ed is going to pretend that performance is such a vital element for an economy car, at least make up something about how performance ties into "safety"...
Jesse
'01 Honda S2000 (performance great, mpg... not so much)
'06 Honda Hybrid (mpg great, performance... not so much)
Ed needs to get a clue...
I'm actually going from about 20 miles north of Atlanta to Calera, AL which is about 25 miles south, total one way is 198 miles.
My suggestion would be, if you don't like what you read, go elsewhere. Just a thought...
Actually no. The Mazda 3 uses the same platform as the Volvo S40. This platform is also used by the European built version of the Focus. The American Ford Focus is a different car platform altogether.
I don't doubt that. I live in Pleasant Grove, about 10 miles west of B'ham. Calera is a good little drive to B'ham, especially to Pleasant Grove!
I agree with your next post saying that if you don't like someone's (Edmunds, for example), it doesen't mean they are wrong or stupid. It just means they value certain things more than you might (if you disagree, that is).
The Mazda 3 is built on Ford's global C1 platform developed jointly by Ford, Volvo and Mazda. Volvo led on structural design and safety, Ford led on suspension and Mazda provided drive train expertise.
The platform is loosely based on the Ford C170 platform (that underpins the previous generation European Focus and current US Focus) and the Mazda BJ platform. In fact, the suspension is the famous "control-blade" suspension from the Focus. The first car to appear on the platform was the European Ford Focus C-Max MPV.
The Mazda 6 platform is being used by Ford (Fusion/Zephyr/Milan), but it is not a global platform. It was rejected by Volvo and Ford Europe.
There is no magazine or website in existence that I agree with COMPLETELY in terms of writing. I am quite sure if I owned a magazine, the prior statement would still be true. From your position, I should not read any magazines or websites or to even generalize it further, include any sources of input that have opinions different from mine. While I am rather confident in my opinions, I am not THAT confident.
Ed writes good articles in general, this one was mis-directed.
Look at the trade-in value of a 2002 Protege5 or a recent Mazda3 if you want to see how much better Mazda's doing lately in the trade-in world. CarMax is selling 2002 Protege5's for $12,995 -- not too shabby for a 4-year-old car. My wife drives one that we bought brand-new in January 2002 for about $18K. 72% retention in four years ain't too shabby!
Oh, and if you wanna compare the 3s to the Si ... well, let's just wait until the MazdaSpeed 3 comes out in about a year or so.
And do keep this in mind ... In the last decade, Mazda has always stuck its neck out first in the economy sedan market, leaving Honda and Toyota playing catch-up with a car that equals or comes close performancewise and featurewise within a year or two. Likewise here: The Mazda3 came out in 2004; it took Honda two years to come out with anything close. (Toyota's still back in the dust.) By the time the new Civic is just winning loyalists, Mazda will bring out a redesigned 3 with even more performance and features, leaving this new Civic even farther behind. In any case, Honda's definitely playing follow-the-leader in the small car race, continually lagging two years behind Mazda.
Meade
It still is what it is - no matter who designed it. Its good because its good.
If it was designed by Mazda and had sloppy handling would anyone say - its designed by Mazda so I don't care if the handling is poor - or if was designed by Volvo - but has a poor side crash test rating - will anyone say - Volvo builds safe cars so it must be good.
IMO - sharing between companies is a good thing - it lowers the cost and improves the quality (most of the time anyway)
But a pure rebadge is different - like if they slap a blue oval on a Mazda3 and call it a Ford - then you need to ask WHY? How does that fit the brand strategy of each company? You see this happen (GM is a good example) when the company has no overall business plan - other than LETS SELL MORE CARS! 95% of the time it does not work.
I have my 3s for over 4000 miles now (since mid October). Brakes have never squeaked. Haven't needed A/C much, but from reading other comments, it seems lik ethe AC is no longer an issue for teh 06 model. I guess I'll know for sure in August.
Mazda has made no changes to the AC system between 2004 (when new) and the 2006 model. By no changes I mean - they are using the same compressor - the same evaperator - the same condenser - the same air box - the same size fan & motor. They have also not made any changes to the programing (per Mazda technical rep).
So if they have made no changes - why would anyone think the problem is solved?
I recall seeing comments back in the first part of 2005 - that Mazda had solved the problem - only to see people with "issues" later in the year.
Even my defective - worthless AC did a good job when the outside temp was 80 degrees or less - but when the temp hit 95 (plus some sunshine) - it would turn my car into a sweat box.
I am not saying 100% of the Mazda3's have defective AC - seems to be a BIGGER issue in the sedan - but there is one thing I do know - if you do get a Mazda3 with a weak AC then Mazda will not fix it. Its just a simple FACT - Mazda has made a decision to walk away from this issue.
I would love to have someone prove me wrong on this one - by posting a TSB or actual procedure that was used to repair the defect. I am not talking about the $.99 diffusser - but a real fix.
It still is what it is - no matter who designed it. Its good because its good."
yeah, you're right.
TSB Step1: Gather all Mazda 3 documentation: license, insurance, loan, annualk tests, etc.
TSB step2: Go to nearest CARMAX dealer, get estimate and sell Mazda 3.
TSB step3: Go to Honda dealer of choice and purchase Civic
TSB Expected Results: Dramatically improved air conditioning.
TSB Temporary/Permanent Resolution: Permanent, no expected problem return,
It took 2 years because the last generation Civic was still on its 5 year model cycle. I'll say this though Honda didn't put their "all" into the 01 Civic thus leaving way it behind the Mazda 3 when the Mazda 3 first came out. Keep in mind when the 2000 Civic and 2000 Protege were out in the market 5-6 years ago alot of people would have bought a 2000 Civic despite being in its last year of bodystyle for that generation of Civic over the last generation Protege. The same can't be said for buying a 2005 Civic over a 2005 Mazda 3. I'm with you the Toyota is behind the competition right now.
Does CR define reliability as - it does not break? Like the compressor going out?
Or
Is reliability how well something works? AC blows ICE COLD AIR even if the outside temp is 105 degrees.
I am thinking to CR - reliability = does not break.
Cr could rate the reliability of the engine very HIGH - but that does not mean the engine has a lot of power.