Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Let's get back to the Mazda3 vs. the Civic, please.
No need to wait until next year - car was officially intoduced yesterday
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=109468
"As on the Mazdaspeed 6, the Mazdaspeed 3's turbo 2.3-liter uses direct injection and has a 9.5:1 compression ratio. However, Mazda is giving an "over 250" horsepower estimate for this 3 compared to 274 on the 6, due to different exhaust routing and emissions equipment. Torque should hold steady around 280 at 3,000 rpm. "
So now we all know it will smoke the Civic Si
I also read that the car will come with a fire extinguisher to put out the flames after it smokes the Si, and others for that matter... :P
With that price you are getting close to S2000 territory and the S2000 will still smoke the Mazdaspeed3 :P
Seriously, the Mazdaspeed3 sounds like an awesome car
cruis'n in my little 237 Hp 2.2L 4 cyclinder with the top down :shades: ,
MidCow
At the Honda dealership in my town, they are selling a 2006 Civic Si for $20,540. It seems as if the Mazdaspeed3 will mot likley not go over $25K. They have stated it will be "very affordable".
With that price you are getting close to S2000 territory and the S2000 will still smoke the Mazdaspeed3
The S2000 is over $30k. That's more then $5000 away. Also, Mazda has reported "horsepower will be over 250" with 0-60 in "under 6 seconds". I would not say the S2000 will "smoke" the MS3.
Yes, the Si will be more affordable. The Mazdaspeed3 is just more of a car then the Si.
Where did you read, or hear that Mazda "connot build a powerful NA engine?" Do you work for Mazda? Are you a auto insider? What evidence do you have to base this on? Just curious. Do you think it is a possibility Mazda just wanted to smoke everyone by building a turbocharged engine? If you haven't noticed, turbocharging is on a major comeback! Even Acura (Honda) is using a similar engine in the RDX!!! BTW, Mazda has a MZR 2.3 NA that puts out 300hp, built in junction with Cosworth.
Also, they do have a 1.3L engine that puts out 238!
BTW, I would not cry if Honda built a turbocharged S2000, but then, the price would probably be so high , no one would buy it! Maybe people cannot justify paying almost $40K for a Honda. Slap an Acura label on it, and it would have better luck.
I mean really,160 HP from a 2.3ltr?Are those figures enough to get anyone excited?
The Mazda3 is considered by many to be the "hottest compact in America". Also, read the reviews on that vehicle. I wonder if that classifies as "enough to get anyone excited"? :P
In all seriousness, you are right. But, the MS3 will probably be compared to the GTI as well, which just recently was compared to the Si. So, you can see how the MS3 may be compared to the Si.
Another reason it may be compared against the Si is because a lot of Honda people has been saying "well ,the Civic comes in the Si, and that spanks the Mazda3 s" So, Mazda people are going to respond by saying "well, we have the Mazdaspeed3, which will spank your Si" Make sense?
This is why the auto industry is so much fun :shades:
The Civic is a great car. The interior is very well thought out, displays are unusual and very nice. The seats are comfortable and the back seat is plenty comfortable for the average adult.
I drove the EX coupe with an automatic first and found the car to be fine to drive but nothing spectacular. I was especially un-impressed with it's ability to get up to passing speed and just felt that it was generally under-powered.
I switched over to the manual transmission and the driving experience was much improved. The 1.8L engine though has that typical four cylinder whine to it and the car is obviously geared to favor MPG over performance.
I came away feeling the Civic would make a great commuter car - but just isn't that fun to drive in my opinion.
The Mazda3i was up next. The interior is a bit more traditional but every bit as well appointed as the Civic's and my wife and I both found the seats to be more comfortable.
Driving the 3i with the 2.0L engine and manual transmission was just fun. It was quick, responsive, and very nimble - just felt like it was begging to go faster. Albeit at the expense of a little fuel economy over the Civic.
One concern though is the side-impact safety rating on the 3i. Side curtain airbags are standard on the Civic and are only available as an option on the Mazda3.
After returning to the Mazda dealership - I decided to take a look at a 3s with the larger 2.3L engine. WOW - the interior has very nice gauges - giving it a much nicer look than the 3i. Driving the 3s was everything driving the 3i was - just more.
I ended up with a Mazda3s GT - comes standard with the side curtain airbags, leather, navigation, etc. and it didn't cost me much more (about $1,500) than the EX with navigation. The fact that the Civic is a first-year design and the Mazda3 in its third year played into my decision as well.
In my experience, the Mazda3 is just a much more fun car to drive.
I don't get your whole rant. Is turbocharging cheating? Is a NA engine that is much more underpowered than it's turboed competitor somehow more noble in your mind?
Turbocharging is one method to get more power out of a car. Every manufatcurer can do it if they choose. And today's turbo's don't cause reliability issues like they may have in the past.
People are comparing the 2 cars because they will always be competitors.
And, ya know, that's the title of this thread
Sounds like Honda/Acura is finally jumping on the band waggon...or quite possibly, woke up and smelled the coffee
Well, I don't know about that. Honda hasn't been losing out in sales due to lack of power anywhere. In fact, their VTEC system got power out of 4-cylinder engines that many other makers couldn't get without Variable Valve Timing. Maybe the last 115hp Civics were a little out of date, but they still sold like hotcakes.
Now, a turbo 245 hp TSX would do wonders for TSX sales, I think (but would probably steal some from the TL).
I never said their sales were lacking, they are quite the opposite. Also, the Civic will always sell like hotcakes.
In regards to VTEC, that is Honda's Variable Valve Timing. The way you stated it was other makes can get the same power with their Variable Valve Timing. I think you mistyped, and meant to say Honda's VTEC gets more power then other makes VV-T, which would be mainly true.
Now, a turbo 245 hp TSX would do wonders for TSX sales, I think (but would probably steal some from the TL).
That would be neat to see, but cost may go over $30K, too close to the TL, and it would infringe on TL sales.
I too agree that the TL would be endangered with such a powerful TSX, but if the TL moves up to, say, 275 hp and gets the SH-AWD (rumored to happen, not sure though), the TSX could slide in at $31,495 or so (competitive with the IS-250 Lexus), while the AWD TL cost maybe $35,495 (comparble to the ES and IS 350 models).
I dunno, just thinking out loud. Most probably see it as rambling.
Sorry, I know I've led us off-topic, so I'm done with my rambles. For now, anyways!
And there is a new player coming, SI SEDAN a little 2litre 197HP.
And there is a new player coming, SI SEDAN a little 2litre 197HP. "
We heard all this 2 months ago. Everyone knows that the civic gets better mileage, but thanks for the tip.
SAE? All cars have been re-rated this year, haven't they? Besides, the 3 beat the Civic in every measurable test that involved motion, so what does teh SAE ratings matter, anyway
You should also know the 250+ HP, 280 TQ Mazdaspeed3 will be out this fall.
Here's the thing - everyone looks at HP and it's a relatively meaningless number unless you're looking to race the car. You'll never top out your horsepower in typical day to day driving.
What you should really be looking at is the TORQUE. That's what pushes you back in the seat off the line from the stoplight and gets you around that 18-wheeler on the interstate.
The Civic has 140HP but only 128lb-ft of torque; Civic Si bumps the horsepower to 197HP but the torque only goes to 139lb-ft. Honda doesn't worry about he fact that the Si only has 11 more lb-ft of torque over the Civic EX because they know most people are looking at that extra 57HP and thinking they're getting something usable out of it. Again, I'm talking typical day to day driving here - not racing.
The Mazda3s, on the other hand, has 160HP and 150lb-ft of torque. I'll take the extra 21lb-ft of torque over the Civic EX and extra 11lb-ft of torque over the Si any damned day! If you love to drive cars and you drive them all back to back - you will too.
Actually HP and torque are both worthless stats UNLESS YOU ALSO POST THE RPM that is needed to reach said levels.
The reason it is generally accepted that torque is more important is because auto engines produce their peak torque at lower RPM levels - compared to peak HP which is normally at a higher RPM. Since MOST of the time we run our engines somewhere between 750 and 4,000 RPM's it is the engines power in this range that is important (in "normal driving"). BTW the 750 - 4,000 is just my guess - 750 is close to idle speed and 4,000 is about (or maybe even a little above) where most people with a manual tranny would shift gears (on a normal drive not a race).
The other thing that always gets lost in the HP vs torque discussion is that you can - given ANY HP value and engine speed (RPM) calculate the amount of torque produced -
Or since it is just a formula - if you give the torque and RPM it is easy to calculate the HP
Kind of like converting temperature from "F" to "C" - but for some reason you never hear anyone say that "F" is more important than "C" -
So if you say the Civic SI produces 197 HP at 7,800 RPM you could also say the Civic SI produces 132.65 FT pounds of torque at 7,800 RPM.
HP = (RPM * torque)/5252
Torque = (HP * 5252) / RPM
So - the HP and torque of every engine will = each other when the engine is running 5252 RPM's.
Now this is the time when someone always posts something about a FLAT curve being more important than PEAK value - bla bla bla.
where did you get that information?
It is obvious you have never really driven or owned a Honda VTEC engine!
My current Honda VTEC only has 237 HP and 162 ft-lbs of torque, but the shifting and gear ratios are oh so sweet!
I would choose the Si over the Mazda3 anyday! Besides being much better styled, more powerful, better looking , it gets the same gas mileage and is more reliable!
A mere test drive of a VTEC doesn't do it justice. Once you have one and get to know it, VTEC is a wonderful technology!
Double sixes,
MidCow
It's a 2007 model. This fall is all the speculation I have read.
Torque = (HP * 5252) / RPM
So - the HP and torque of every engine will = each other when the engine is running 5252 RPM's. "
I've seen this formula before, and what I've always had a hard time grasping is this:
If HP and TQ are indeed tied to each other, how do you get some engines that are, for example, 200 HP & 240 TQ, and others that are 200 HP & 160 TQ.
I guess it means that they are tied only at that RPM number (5252)
Let's not even get into the fact that it's a coupe, which eliminates the Si for a lot of people.
We all know that styling is subjective, but I will say that styling USUALLY goes to the 3 in comparisons. Although the Si is ten time better than the bland regular civic sedan.
Reliability is very good for the 3, while the new civic should do well based on it's history, although new model data isn't really out there
The two examples you cite are running at different engine RPMs.
200Hp and 240 TQ= 4,377 RPM( probably a low tech V6)
200Hp and 160 TQ = 6,565 RPM ( probably a 4 Cyl VTEC)
It is all a matter of substituting and solving
Double sixes, top down ,
MidCow
My main point of comparison was in driving the Civic EX -vs- the Mazda3s and I don't know how ANYONE could come away from driving these two cars saying the Civic was the better driving car.
As for one being better styled, better looking, etc. - that's all subjective. Reliability... hmmmm, seems about dead even according to Consumer Reports and given the number of problem with first year vehicles I'm willing to bet the 06 M3 ends up proving more reliable than the 06 Civic.
This is right on Edmunds (Geneva Auto Show)
2007 Mazdaspeed 3
What is it?
2007 Mazdaspeed 3
What's special about it?
Few cars have more tuning potential than the well-sorted Mazda 3, which many consider the most desirable economy car in the U.S. market. Mazda made us wait a good long time for the high-performance Mazdaspeed 3 version, but the payoff is that it has a lot more power than we expected.
That's because Mazda engineers found a way to stuff the Mazdaspeed 6's turbocharged 2.3-liter inline four under the hood of this five-door hatchback. We had doubted the operation would be possible, given that it was already a squeeze to get this intercooled turbo four into the midsize 6, which had to be fitted with a domed hood.
"We changed the 3's dash to accommodate the new engine," Program Manager Tatsuo Maeda explained. "There's a slight indentation in the new dash panel to accommodate it. Also, the hood is raised 20mm."
As on the Mazdaspeed 6, the Mazdaspeed 3's turbo 2.3-liter uses direct injection and has a 9.5:1 compression ratio. However, Mazda is giving an "over 250" horsepower estimate for this 3 compared to 274 on the 6, due to different exhaust routing and emissions equipment. Torque should hold steady around 280 at 3,000 rpm.
In order to save weight and keep the car affordable, Mazda decided not to feed all this power through an all-wheel-drive system. So the six-speed manual gearbox sends the juice to the front wheels, just like on a normal 3. Mazda has released a 6.1-second 0-to-60-mph estimate, though Mazda reps told us the car would do it in "under 6." Top speed is electronically limited to 155 mph.
A standard limited-slip differential should tighten the Mazdaspeed 3's line when exiting turns, and Mazda says torque steer won't be a problem, thanks to precise control over power delivery through the first four gears.
Of course, there are plenty of chassis upgrades to get excited about as well. Engineers widened the front track eight-tenths of an inch to accommodate the Mazdaspeed 3's slightly wider 215/45R18 tires. All Mazda 3s get mild suspension revisions for 2007 to improve rigidity, but the Mazdaspeed hatch also benefits from higher spring and damper rates as well as larger-diameter stabilizer bars. The result is 60-percent less body roll, says Mazda.
Braking hardware is upgraded as well. The 12.6-inch front rotors are almost an inch larger than the ones on the regular 3. The rear discs are about the same size, but are now ventilated rather than solid. For safety's sake, ABS, emergency brake assist and stability control are standard.
A revised front grille that doubles as an air intake for the intercooler immediately distinguishes the Mazdaspeed hatch from other 3s, and in back, the tailpipe is 3.7 inches across. Red stitching accents the black cockpit, and more aggressive sport seats promise to hold you snug through the corners.
Mazda says the Mazdaspeed 3 will hit the market in the fall of 2006. Company officials offered no details on pricing, but we expect it to come in under $25,000.
What's Edmunds' take?
The '07 Dodge Caliber SRT-4 looked pretty scary when it debuted in Chicago with 300 hp. But with about 280 lb-ft of torque in the Mazdaspeed 3, it now looks like a much tighter battle. If Mazda's hot hatch weighs in lighter than the portly Caliber, it will likely prevail through the turns. — Erin Riches
ahhh hah! speculation! This car won't be on the street's until at the earliest, this time next year.
I work for a Mazda dealer, and we have been given no such info on the Mazdaspeed3, because there is nothing official, it's just a prototype. Also, our final order for vehicles due here in the fall is with in the next week or two.
I will believe it when my Mazda rep tells me so.
I would happen to agree with you as well. I have owned a 97 Accord EX with VTEC, and I loved it. There is no questioning that Honda has had wonderful reliability. But, I have noticed many quirks with the new Civic. I am also a Mazda dealer, and one of my best friends in a Honda tech right down the street from our Mazda store. He has told me about an accelerator recall on the 06 Civic, as well as many customers bringing back their Civic for little problems that are "unHonda like". The extent of the "quirks" or "problems", I did not get into. I think it's a possibility that the perfect little red dot next to the Civic in Consumers might change for next year.
I've noticed in other forums as well,(if I am out of line for stating this here I apologize!)but, people bash the RX-8 for it's low torque, well, look at Honda VTEC's in the Civic Si and S2000, they are similar!! So, in terms of Honda having a superior valve train, yes, superior engine overall, no.
Hard to understand - and some will disagree - but I think of HP and Torque as two different ways to measure the same thing. Like using pounds and kilos. No one will ever say - kilos are more important (VS pounds) when weighing a rock - because they are really the same thing - a measure of weight.
Does anyone really think an engine produces TWO different kinds of power? I hope anyone who thinks about it for a minute will say NO. Sure there are many ways to MEASURE engine power - HP and torque are two of the most common - but you can also use watts (like a light bulb, 1 HP = 746 watts) or even BTU's -
I read someplace - can't recall where - that technically HP is used as a measure of work OVER a time period - where torque is a measure at A point in time. Like 1 HP = 33,000 ft pounds per minute (I could be off on the 33,000 my memory is not that great) So the amount of power required to move 1 pound 33,000 feet in one minute would = 1 HP - or 1,000 pounds 33 feet - or 100 pounds 330 feet - all the same amount of work.
But all this is just a start - in addition to engine power you need to also consider the drive train gear ratios - and that is where things get mixed up quick.
Even if you consider a simple 1 speed set up - what will will be faster in a 1/4 mile race?
a Mazda3 with a 150 HP @ 5,000 RPM engine with 5.73 final drive ratio
Or a Mazda3 with a 200 HP @ 5,000 RPM engine with a 3.42 drive ratio
The 150 HP will (my guess) jump off the line faster at first - but the 200HP up will catch up - pass and win the race.
Now I am even boring myself!
And I will choose to believe the information that Mazda has provided with auto journalists over an anonymous person on a message board
You should also know the 250+ HP, 280 TQ Mazdaspeed3 will be out this fall.
No, NOT all cars have been re-rated. It isn't REQUIRED until a change is made to an engine, but Honda and Toyota stepped up and updated all of their ratings voluntarily. For instance, the new Accord saw an increase in 10 horsepower in the I-4 model, but with new ratings, it was only reflected as 6 horsepower (b/c the 160 hp model is actually 156, as seen in the CR-V).
Mazda hasn't re-rated their vehicles.
Mazda hasn't re-rated their vehicles. "
Like I said earlier, what will it matter? The 3s already has better acceleration than the civic sedan
Ride is OK - a little bit bumpy - but compared to the Mazda3 it was smooth.
Handling is pretty good - not as sharp as the Mazda3 but better than the Scion TC - the TC I tested was pure junk - it was a demo with 4,000 miles - and it handled and drove like a car with 204,000 miles.
The Civic engine was a big let down - feels under powered - going 50 MPH - push the gas pedal all the way to the floor and it sllloooowwwlly gains speed - I really expected a quick down shift - and a little burst up to 60-65 MPH. The sales guy sitting in the back was a little bit on the BIG side - maybe 275-300 pounds - but still that is like having 2 normal size kids in the back.
I really though I would hate the dash of the Civic but it is much better looking than the photos.
Mazda also told auto journalists that the Mazdaspeed6 would be out March/April 2005 when it debuted in 2004. And when did we see it, November 2005.
I guess we will believe who we want to. My rep has been right on in regards to all vehicle arrivals so far.
Not sure what the correct term is - I think of it as final drive ratio - the number of times the engine must turn for the wheel to turn 1 revolution.
Based on my test drive - and the much higher MPG rating of the Civic - the Mazda3 must have a lower final drive ratio.
The result is a Civic that feels slow in comparison.
Have a nice one...
thegrad
It's never to late to learn.
If an engine produces 500 foot pounds of torque at 1500 RPM - most would say that is a real TORQUE MONSTER right? Well if you said the engine produces 142.8 HP at 1,500 RPM isn't that the EXACT same thing? If an engine produces 500 HP at 6500 RPM guess you could also say is produces 404 foot pounds of torque at 6500 RPM. (Both of these examples could in fact be the same engine)
Because 500 FT pounds of torque @ 1500 RPM is ALWAYS equal to 142.8 HP at 1500 RPM
Because 500 HP at 6500 RPM is ALWAYS equal to 404 ft # of torque at 6500 RPM.
So if something is equal it is basically the same RIGHT? But I do understand where you are coming from -
Its like if I have 2 dimes and a nickel and you have a quarter - we both have $.25 - I could say the amount of money we have is equal - or you could say that we have two completely different things.
It is easy to tell when someone does not understand the concept of HP and torque - they will say something like - that engine does not produce any torque.
What they really mean is that at the lower RPM range the engine does not produce much power (Torque or HP or watts or however you want to measure it)
Many people really think you can have an engine that produces a lot of torque and very little HP (at a given RPM) or one that produces A lot of HP and very little torque (again at the same RPM). Which is of course not possible.
Because if engine "A" produces more HP than engine "B" at a given RPM then engine "A" will also ALWAYS produce more torque than engine "B" at that same engine RPM.
I think the reason for the confusion could be because at any RPM level UNDER 5,252 the number of FT pounds of torque is GREATER than the number of HP - always true for every engine.
Also - at every RPM over 5252 the number of HP will always be GREATER than the number of FT pounds - always true for every engine.
Like I said before - the number FT pounds and HP will ALWAYS be equal at 5252 RPM.
I think this causes confusion because - saying an engine produces 500 FT pounds at 1,500 RPM just sounds so much more powerful than saying - my engine produces 150 HP at 1500 RPM. If I could take a pole - I bet many would think that the engine producing 500 FT pounds at 1500 RPM is MORE powerful than the one that is ONLY producing 150 HP at 1500 RPM.
So you may say you have 4 dimes and 10 pennies? I think of it as $.50! The way I look at it we are both right.
Perfect example of what I was trying to explain in my prior post.
I am plenty satisfied with the perfromance my 162 ft-lb 4 cylinder.
Cheers,
MidCow
I have been asked to join and I will get their soon and post the S2000 with Invidia exhaust. I wish I could recreate and capture the actual sound of the exhaust: intimidating at idle, a little boomy at 2,000-4,000 but still great, awesome at VTEC (5,000-8,000). Pretty neat in a closed underground garage, sets off motion sensor and vibration car alarms.
Also, will post the Accord with roof rack ( remounted it this weekend) and carribean blue Hobie Mirage Outfitter on top
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- Two coats of Zaino wax, deepdeep shine
P.S.S. - Is it just me or does the Mazda 3 look a little cartoonish ( not as bad as the Suzukis)
... and the new Civic looks like a giant suppository
Anyhow - in case you haven't noticed the title of this thread is "Honda Civic -vs- Mazda3" not S2000 -vs- Mazda3
I'd strongly suggest you go test drive a Civic EX and Mazda3s or, hell, even a 3i and get back to us with an informed honest opinion about which drives better. It'll take one hour out of your Saturday - I openly challenge you to do it and report back.
Way Way ahead of you.
The Mazda3i is a little sluggish but okay with the manual. The 3S is very nice. Both 31 and 3s drive and handle better than the Civic DX, LX, EX with manual 5 speed and/or Civic hybrid. The Civic Si blows away both the 3i and 3S, don't know about the Mazda3speed yet ( not avaiailbe), but I would guess the Mazda3speed will be better than the Si.
Now, I still think the Mazda 3 especially the 3S wagon looks cartoonish! The new Si coupe looks outstanding. The new Civic sedan has sort of a BMWish look. If you think it looks like a giant suppository you might have confused it with a Hyundai or some other car. You might want to recheck or see an optomitrist .
So what did your test drives show ???
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- Didn't mention S2000 because you know how it compares