Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

uplanderguy · October 2012

Thanks for reiterating the length of use of those Chevrolet nameplates, lemko, and for explaining the Subaru, er...Steelers, emblem.

Hope you didn't have any damage out your way. Wife's uncle in Doylestown had a big tree down in their back yard, and my niece in Westville, NJ had lots of wind but no damage.

lemko · October 2012

Only one tree down about a block from me. A tree removal crew was out there yesterday and removed the debris.

Actually, "Subaru" is the Japanese name for the Pleiades or "Seven Sisters" star formation. The Subaru logo represents the stars in the constellation. The Subaru vehicle is manufactured by Fuji Heavy Industries.

uplanderguy · October 2012

Personally I think it's kind of shady that Toyota no longer uses the Toyopet, Corona, Crown, Cressida, Solara, Echo, or Tercel names anymore. What do they have to hide? How about Nissan and Datsun/B210/HoneyBee/510/Stanza nameplates?

Just kidding, but you get the point.

ateixeira · October 2012

Good catch, Rob. Politicians were mis-using that to say jobs in Ohio would be lost, now there are ads counter-attacking the attack ads.

TV has become unwatchable without DVR to skip those.

ateixeira · October 2012

Yeah but the Corolla name has been used forever. Camry's been used for a long while also.

I like Tercel better than Yaris, they should go back to some older names.

stever · October 2012

Datsun is coming back.

ateixeira · October 2012

Shoulda never left!

imidazol97 · October 2012

>Politicians were mis-using

We are getting enough political talk on TV without it here on Edmunds.

andres3 · October 2012

Thanks for reiterating the length of use of those Chevrolet nameplates, lemko, and for explaining the Subaru, er...Steelers, emblem.

I don't buy those names as good examples of "length of use" in Chevy name brands. For instance, the Camaro was non-existent for years, and only a retro revival resurrected it.

shanelnored · October 2012

like the UGG SUNDANCE II 5325 Stiefel very much

uplanderguy · November 2012

Camaro: In use 1967-2002, and 2010-now. Total: 39 years.

ateixeira · November 2012

enough political talk

Fair enough, and true. I didn't name the candidate, at least.

andres3 · November 2012

So what was the reason for the 8 year death?

Were they trying to build up pent up demand for the Camaro?

uplanderguy · November 2012

They decided the capacity could be better used on another project, obviously.

Wasn't the conversation here that GM always changes model names because of 'bad karma' from the old names? Obviously, if that were the case here, the new Camaro would have been called something else.

gagrice · November 2012

Camaro is fading again. Sales are down for October 16% from October 2011. In fact GM is fading again. Caddy may as well shut the doors. If not for the Mexican made SRX they would have nothing much to keep them going.

uplanderguy · November 2012

How did Camaro compare to Mustang sales this month?

And isn't rather early to shut the doors on the ATS? Sheesh.

gagrice · November 2012

Mustang was up in Oct 8.8% and 17% for the year. I don't know about ATS, something about entry level luxury brands that seems odd to me. ATS may have stolen sales from the CTS which was down 40% from last October. I think it will take more than 1200 ATS a month to keep Cadillac going. Lincoln is dying as well.

busiris · November 2012

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227784

A couple of months out of date, but the graphs give a fairly good long-term history of the Camaro, Mustang and Challenger.

Draw your own conclusions as that the data signifies...

ateixeira · November 2012

The trend is interesting, Camaro and Mustang move together, but Challenger has gone in the opposite direction.

uplanderguy · November 2012

Here's current information from the same website. Camaro outsold Mustang by 25% in October 2012:

http://www.camaro5.com/october-2012-camaro-sales-and-production-figures-and-vs-m- ustang-challenger

gagrice · November 2012

According to Ford site, 5328 Mustangs were sold in October.
GM site says 5122 Camaros sold in October.
I think the Camaro fan boy site uses less than factual data to promote their agenda.

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/Oct12sales.pdf

http://media.gm.com/dld/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Nov/gmsales/_jcr_content/r- ightpar/sectioncontainer/par/download/file.res/Deliveries%20Oct%202012.pdf

uplanderguy · November 2012

I find it hard to believe that they are just making the numbers up. What I find even more amazing is that on November 1 there are already published numbers that would include sales from...yesterday.

dieselone · November 2012

October sales data is out, MotorTrend has reported the Mustang outsold the Camaro for the month.

Also, the link you posted shows a date of October 2nd. How can they know what October sales will be on the second day of the month;)

Following the link from that page looks like they are referencing September sales not October.

uplanderguy · November 2012

My guess is that although it says October, it's data from September on that Camaro site.

Frankly, with the Mustang having had a styling refresh since the Camaro has come out, I'd be surprised the Mustang wouldn't have outsold it for a long time. That has not happened as a matter of course.

ateixeira · November 2012

Sales are important but we should factor other things like incentives as well. The bottom line is: are they making any money from these cars?

I suspect they do, and they also have a bit of a halo effect. A 25 year old may come in to check one out and buy something else, a Sonic SS or Cruze or something.

ateixeira · November 2012

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/02/honda-marks-30-years-with-200-million-upgrade- -200-new-jobs-in/

cooterbfd · November 2012

Gary, before you drive the final stake, Caddy is outselling Lincoln, Audi, Acura, and Infiniti.

lemko · November 2012

My first new car was a Chevrolet. I was 22, had just graduated from college, and purchased a new black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic.

ateixeira · November 2012

Caddy is outselling Lincoln

The Caddy SRX by itself outsold Lincoln.

Scion outsold Lincoln.

Mini outsold Lincoln.

lemko · November 2012

Bring back the Town Car!

This is the ONLY Lincoln in recent memory that I would've purchased. Alas, it is no more! I am still interested in one as a used buy.

gagrice · November 2012

Caddy is barely outselling Audi. Audi has gained 18% for the year. Caddy has lost 6% for the year. And the best selling Cadillac SRX is Not made in the USA. That is almost half their sales for the year.

ateixeira · November 2012

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/04/cadillac-xts-lineup-expands-to-livery-limo-an- d-hearse-models/

You can get an XTS limo now.

Lincoln is invisible.

uplanderguy · November 2012

Sales are what matters most. Look back on any car in history and all you'll read is how it competed sales-wise with anything else, not profit-per-unit.

bpizzuti · November 2012

Profit is what matters most if you want the company to continue to make sales numbers. I can sell more cars than anyone else in the world, but if I sell them at a loss I won't be selling them for much longer.

gagrice · November 2012

And that is exactly the reason we had to bail out GM & C. They wanted units sold to keep their UAW workers happy and it bankrupted them. You cannot pay workers to sit in a rubber room when car sales are down and not go broke. Selling at a loss can only go on so long. I think GM is headed down the same slippery slope with sub-prime auto loans and fleet sales at cost.

busiris · November 2012

Look back at that same history and you'll also see the companies that failed to make profits on those sales disappear from the carmaker map.

Profit per unit is a straw man statistic. If the manufacturer can't "net" a bottom line profit, sooner or later it's "Buh-Bye!". In today's financial arena, that's much more likely to be sooner than later, unless some form of government assistance is added into the mix. Even then, nowadays that bucket is pretty shallow...

tlong · November 2012

Sales are what matters most.

Not if the company can't stay in business.

As an example, Conde Nast ranked Virgin America as the #1 domestic airline. Yet they are hemmorhaging money and likely to go bust in the next 12 months. Not enough sales.

uplanderguy · November 2012

We're talking auto sales. Please show me any online reporting of a specific car model in the past that outsold another but didn't make as much profit per unit as the other. I didn't think you could.

gagrice · November 2012

I don't know of any company that reports profit by model. There has been speculation for a long time that Toyota subsidizes the Prius to satisfy CAFE. I doubt seriously the Malibu makes as much per unit net profit as the CamCords.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2012

our son bought a 2000 white Lincoln Town Car several months ago. That is one nice car, an "old man's car" that is worth the money he paid for it.

The body is straight, there's only a little paint besmirchment on the back trunk area, right below where you grip the trunk, on the back bumper. It could be fixed, I could probably make it look better myself by farting around with a "do-it yerself kit" of some kind. He done well wid it, really.

Easy as all get-out ta steer the thing, you can steer the car with one finger. All the "bells and whistles" and a stereo that I would head to the local Coeur d' Alene audio shop ta get replaced if I owned the car, but how could that be much of a complaint really? Ya know what I mean?

tlong · November 2012

We're talking auto sales. Please show me any online reporting of a specific car model in the past that outsold another but didn't make as much profit per unit as the other. I didn't think you could.

Accounting is quite creative and I doubt any maker releases actualy profitability per vehicle. It also depends upon the options chosen since I suspect the options are major profit makers.

As an entire company, however, GM failed miserably even though they had the huge sales volume. So it doesn't really matter if some single model made money, as the overall mix was a huge money loser.

gagrice · November 2012

They get decent mileage out on the road as well. A very comfy ride. I would take that car over a Caddy of the same age.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2012

I was working a part-time gig in northern New Mexico and my wife and I cringed when he told us on the phone he was gonna buy it. Now I see why he did. Great rig. The Ford version, a Crown Vic, a buddy loaned me when I broke my arm during Respiratory College in mid-Missouri. What a god-send that loan-out was!

I couldn't work the shifter of our 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4 5-speed with my broken right arm so my Gulf War vet buddy really helped me out a lot with that. It helped me stay in school and complete my training. That was an example of friendship coming through in the clutch.

Pardon the pun.

gagrice · November 2012

You working in Coeur d'Alene now?

iluvmysephia1 · November 2012

actually I'm out of work and applying for work in Idaho, Washington, Montana, Oregon, Arizona and New Mexico. The politics of the Allied Healthcare field seem ta dwarf that of Boeing even, I have found!

busiris · November 2012

You're asking for something that you well know doesn't exist.

No manufacturer reports profits in that manner.

Most would accept that Corvette is a profitable model, in its current manufacturing arrangement, but it's highly doubtful Corvette could exist profitably very long as a stand-alone entity.... Say, if a company like an investment house bought it from GM, with the intentions of making ONLY Corvettes. And, that's true if they only paid GM $1 for the operations.

Far too much engineering, technology and parts are spread across the manufacturer's spectrum of operations to give any meaningful profit/loss number for a particular model.

uplanderguy · November 2012

Busiris, read the original post again. Sales of two comparable models are the only real metric. It was another poster who said that wasn't all that important.

busiris · November 2012

Perhaps I am indeed missing the point of the conversation.

Subsidies for models, in order to enhance their market appeal and affordability, do exists, but are cleverly hidden and obscured by manufacturers.

In the end, it would seem that individual model successes and/or failures can only be determined by comparable units sold, even when it's clear that subsidies were used to allow a lower selling price.

The Volt comes to mind. Is there much doubt many more Volts would sell at $11,995 pricing? Wouldn't that make a successful car, based on sales, but a failure, based on costs?

stever · November 2012

Another way to say it is that some vehicles (pickups for the Big 3?) are so profitable they subsidize some other models in the product line.

Supposedly the tooling and engineering in the 80s Suburbans had been so thoroughly amortized, Chevy wound up making $7,000 or $8,000 per vehicle when they were running $15 to $20k MSRP. Old urban legend so who knows. The generation around then lasted from '73 to '91. They probably outsold the new ones about three to one.

busiris · November 2012

I would say we're all pretty much in the same ballpark here.

At the end of the day, it's going to be very difficult to declare a vehicle a winner, based upon sales volumes alone. Other factors, such a s true cost of production and delivery absolutely must be required to be factored into the total equations before one can determine whether or not a model is a true marketing and profitable success story.

Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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