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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited February 2013
    Different workforce attitudes. In Germany, there's not nearly the friction between management and actual workers that is seen in the US. Not nearly the same socio-economic gap either, which I believe plays into it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I wonder if the original Italian hatchback it's based on is any better?

    not bad from the side, but kinda vulgar and sexually suggestive in front.

    My biggest issue with the Dart is that it looks like two different cars joined at the B-pillar. The front half looks like it could be a decent midsized car. Legroom's good, and I think it has something like 58.4" of shoulder room. That's actually more than most midsized cars today and probably on par with what passes for "full size" these days. My old Intrepid was something like 59.1", and I think my Park Ave is similar.

    But then, the rear-end looks like they just stuck something on, like a previous-gen Elantra, but at least gave it cool taillights.

    I don't hate the Dart, but not in love with it, either. But to be fair, that's pretty much my sentiment on most compacts.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll take the Alfa from any angle. Prefer hatches anyway.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I'll take the Alfa from any angle. Prefer hatches anyway.

    Yeah, but I dunno how easily the Dart would translate to a hatchback. Not only did they lengthen the Alfa to make the Dart, but they widened it as well. So, while the Dart doesn't look so hot as a sedan, it might not look so graceful as a hatch, either.

    Maybe they should've just gone all the way, and made it a bit bigger aft of the B-pillar as well, and used it as a replacement for the midsized cars?

    Oh, I've heard they're thinking about badge-engineering it into a Chrysler 100 or something like that. Please, Lord, let that just be an early April Fool's joke! :cry:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2013
    Different workforce attitudes. In Germany, there's not nearly the friction between management and actual workers that is seen in the US. Not nearly the same socio-economic gap either, which I believe plays into it.

    Agree completely.

    Union leadership usually has some influence on the company's BOD and in decision making.

    Adding to the mix is that the government "imposes" many more benefits on the population, such as guaranteed vacation time, healthcare, etc., so there isn't as much for the unions/management to argue over in negotiations.

    While there are still union strikes in several sectors, strikes usually don't take too long to resolve, and they usually aren't as "poisonous" as they seem to be here.

    One other positive is that, in a large way, Germans are willing to pay more for perceived quality, and a large part of at perception is the product being made in Germany (or Western Europe).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Rinse and repeat with a Mexican VW. Or Spanish. Or Swedish. All places where VW has factories and deals with local governments and unions.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited February 2013
    Here's the difference I see:

    USA: management to union: do as I say, not as I do

    Elsewhere: management to union: let's work together to get this going quickly and efficiently, and think about the future

    It might not all be so easy and glib, but pretty much, that's how the relationships work.
  • famousproblemsfamousproblems Member Posts: 1
    I find the front of the fusion to be quite a bit different than that of the Focus, but the rear of the Fusion and Focus appear similar. With the Cruze, I think from the front they are very similar. But in general every manufacture maintains a certain type of look through the interesting facts about that. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Hasn't there been union membership on the"supervisory" board of directors for VW forever? Wiki is a bit vague on this point, but says VW "Volkswagen continues to have complicated relations with both unions and shareholders."

    "German corporation law, the Aktiengesetz, requires all public companies (Aktiengesellschaften) to have two boards: a management board called a Vorstand and a supervisory board called an Aufsichtsrat.

    "In Germany the supervisory board of large corporations is composed of 20 members, 10 of which are elected by the shareholders, the other 10 being employee representatives. The supervisory board oversees and appoints the members of the management board and must approve major business decisions." (link)

    You might say it's union to management, especially so since Saxony owns ~20% of VW and likely votes with the unions. :shades:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Here's the difference I see:

    USA: management to union: do as I say, not as I do

    Elsewhere: management to union: let's work together to get this going quickly and efficiently, and think about the future


    Pretty accurate, except that it's VERY two-sided. Perhaps even more so on the union side. The union says to management: "We won't put up with you guys. We will stand fast and TELL you what we are willing to do. And if you don't like it, we'll strike".
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Yes, the unions have a say in the direction of the company - and guess what, the company doesn't automatically fail. Funny how that works. Managers and should-be-hanged execs can't be completely out of control as they are here, and at the same time, actual workers are less willing to get out of control as well. Of course, the factors you mentioned earlier (mandated holidays, healthcare, etc) help a lot.

    I don't have a huge problem with a government having a stake in entities that contribute to the well being and future of a given system. They rely a lot more on cooperation than the pseudo capitalist (in reality statist oligarchy) we cling to here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited February 2013
    And with how it works here, the union is replying to the managers/should-be-hanged execs saying "you need to take less and less over time so we can unjustifiably inflate our salaries, my trophy wife and devilspawn kids need a new Range Rover and a bigger mcmansion. If you don't take it, we will turn our backs on the system that enabled us to exist, refuse to maintain it for those who come later (I got mine, you can pound sand) and move labor to second world locations".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Has a magazine even tested the Dart?

    Edmunds has a long term road test going (as of Jan. 17, '13).

    2013 Dodge Dart SXT Rallye Long-Term Road Test (that's the latest update)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    And, doesn't the government have quite a bit of direct conrol in VW?

    From Wiki...

    Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft is a public company and has a primary listing on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange, where it is a constituent of the DAX index, and secondary listings on the London Stock Exchange, Luxembourg Stock Exchange, New York Stock Exchange and SIX Swiss Exchange. As of September 2012 20% of the voting rights are held by the State of Lower Saxony.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, we touched on that. So, government involvement and union representation on the board. Are we talking VW or GM? :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point. I bet GM and VW (may as well toss in Toyota) are more similar than we'd like to think.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I'm guessing government "participation" was far more accepted in VW's case by the company.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Okay, so I bought some wood trim from Home Depot, decided it wasn't really what I was looking for, so today, I decided to take it back and get something else. Just looked on the label of the stuff I was returning. Made in Chile. Mmkay. Why are we importing wood strips?! Is it really THAT cost effective to grow the stuff in South America, and then transport it up here?!

    Oddly, the replacement stuff I bought, was made in the US. Or, Hecho en EE UU, as the label also said. It was vinyl/composite strips. Oh, and the cheap toilet flap I bought was also made in the US. That actually shocked me, as I could see them making some cheap rubber part overseas and then shipping it here. Same with the composite trim parts.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    I'm guessing government "participation" was far more accepted in VW's case by the company.

    It's very likely ingrained in the national consciousness, since VW didn't get off the ground until Hitler built a state owned factory.

    Andre, Home Depot can't afford to sell US grown timber because they lose so much money taking stuff back from everyone. :D Tis a bit odd; I see loads of logs going by my place every day.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Okay, so I bought some wood trim from Home Depot, decided it wasn't really what I was looking for, so today, I decided to take it back and get something else. Just looked on the label of the stuff I was returning. Made in Chile. Mmkay. Why are we importing wood strips?! Is it really THAT cost effective to grow the stuff in South America, and then transport it up here?!

    Yes it is. Chile is one of the largest exporters of softwood milled molding and trim, plywood sheathing and raw logs. A combination of low costs, skilled labor and cheap transportation makes it effective to import those products.

    BTW, I was as Home Depot recently and saw bagged firewood - what I call romance packs. It was advertised as European Birch. When I looked at the label closer, it was from Estonia. I was surprised that it was cost effective to buy precut and packaged firewood from Europe.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can thank the ECO Nut jobs for shutting down much of our lumber industry in the USA. It is a renewable resource for crying out loud. Or we go crazy like in Iowa and clear cut the hardwood and plant corn for ethanol. What a screwed up society we have devolved into.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Oh, enough with the doom and gloom. We aren't any more screwed up than we've ever been. :P

    You can't even move firewood around here because of the emerald ash borer and yet the elm trees are dying by the zillions in Michigan. Have to wonder what bugs are slipping through the cracks on the wood coming over.

    Henry Ford still owns a plantation and sawmill a couple of hours from here, so maybe Bill will crank production back up again for woody wagons before the bugs decimate them.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Was hoping for a response like that from you, Gary. Made my day. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    He must be watching the State of the Union. That kind of show always messes with my blood pressure. :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2013
    I was watching the LAPD trying to burn down the forest to get their cop killer. Not on TV just the Internet news headlines. I would not waste my time watching Obummer lie about the the state of the union.

    Speaking of Elm trees. A close friend moved to Chimayo NM. She has had nothing but trouble with the elm trees and her septic system. Local septic guy blames the Presbyterians for planting the awful Elm trees all over New Mexico. :P

    We also have restrictions on hauling firewood more than 25 miles from where it was cut. Some kind of beetle that is killing the live oak trees. I only burn eucalyptus as it leaves less ash, burns hot and is plentiful around here.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >so maybe Bill will crank production back up again for woody wagons

    I'm sure the EPA folks will find something wrong with that idea and block it.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I would not waste my time watching Obummer lie about the the state of the union.

    Honestly, I stopped watching these no matter who is president years back. It's all just a big bunch of theater and BS. You've got the other party cheering when they hate the president's guts. It's all so phony. And a bunch of lies and marketing bunk and spin will come out of both parties addresses tonight like every other time. Tomorrow it's back to their respective political donors and PAC money control.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited February 2013
    I'll say my old car is more fun to actually drive than the AMG - as it takes more work, planning, skill. Conserving momentum and making the most of the transmission isn't the same as simply aiming and flooring it.

    Exactly; I could be lazy and sloppy tracking my old M6 or my 2007 MS3. My Club Sport has only 150 bhp to play with, so you screw up just one corner and you pay for it the entire lap.. It has made me a much better driver.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Honestly, I stopped...
    Agree with 100% of what you say.

    Watchng CSI on cable.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    + 1!
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Actually, VW never really got off the ground under Hitler, but the idea of the car certainly did. Few units were produced before the war.

    It was under the British post-war management that VW actually started making production cars for general sale.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hoops for me. Spare me the propaganda nonsense from both sides.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Fun article, makes me miss the ones I drove (but I like my safety features now).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hoops for me.

    You and Rocky, sucked into sports, the opiate of the masses. :shades:
    Can't get Rocky away from his Heat.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    >Honestly, I stopped...
    Agree with 100% of what you say.


    Seconded!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Actually, VW never really got off the ground under Hitler, but the idea of the car certainly did.

    I remember since I was a kid, hearing/reading that the Beetle was Hitler's concept of "The People's Car", and that the design was pretty much locked before his demise.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    College hoops, though. Not pro.

    So only those paid under the table. ;)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2013
    For the most part, that's true.

    The vehicle that went into production after WWII was essentially the pre-war design.

    Post war, there weren't any excess $$$/marks for anything like serious R&D.

    Then again, the US cars sold post war through 1948 were basically "spruced up" 1941 models.

    Back in the 1990's I restored a 1941 Dodge D-19 3-window business coupe, and even though the 1948 Dodge models had a much different look, you would be surprised at the number of interchangeable parts, including body parts.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I think most '48 cars were rehashed '41's, other than Studebakers ("First By Far with a Postwar Car"), and I think Cadillac.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The cheapest thing you could do is go out and cut firewood yourself. Heck, the part of the Philadelphia in which I live is one half block from one of the biggest parks in the city. You wouldn't even know you were in the middle of a city if you walk in there.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'm surprised the LAPD didn't call in a napalm strike to get this one guy. Back in 1985, then-Mayor Goode and the PPD burned down several blocks in West Philly to get this one radical group living there in a rowhouse. The repercussions are still being felt to this day.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited February 2013
    Cadillac had one car that held onto its prewar styling through 1949 - the Series 75 sedan and limousine. Heck, the 1965 Series 75 was identical to the 1964 model except it wore 1965-style wheelcovers. The Series 75 also held onto the huge 1959 wrap windshield through 1965 though other Cadillac models abandoned it in 1961.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    lemko, thanks for the reminder. I was aware of the '65 Series 75. I guess the volume wasn't there to give it the new '65 body--although they did in '66.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The cheapest thing you could do is go out and cut firewood yourself. Heck, the part of the Philadelphia in which I live is one half block from one of the biggest parks in the city. You wouldn't even know you were in the middle of a city if you walk in there.

    I'm sure they discourage logging in the city parks! :)

    I just happened upon the bags of firewood and was curious. We have a fireplace and use it only a couple of times per year. I have my own stock of dry apply and oak in the yard from trees I took down.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Here in the DC suburbs we've had so many windy storms there are fallen trees all over the place. You'll find wood on the side of the road the week after a storm, just need to split it.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    This will be interesting. Ram has announced it will offer a 3.0 v6 turbodiesel for the Ram later this year. I'm looking forward to seeing the performance and economy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    On the Grand Cherokee the diesel option is ~$4500, while the Hemi is ~$2600. So $1900 more than the Hemi option.

    Fleets that do a lot of miles would likely recoup that investment much quicker than most folks. Durability is the kicker, though. If you can get 100k extra miles from each fleet truck, you come out way ahead.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The diesel over hemi on the Ram HD PU trucks is closer to $7000. Makes the $1900 peanuts. Not a bad trade-off for 210 more Ft Lbs of torque. Bound to be better mileage by far. More towing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, I think it will have appeal for 3 reasons:

    * torque for big loads
    * durability/longevity
    * fleet applications with high mileage (break even sooner)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I just pulled up this article on the Grand Cherokee Diesel.

    Looks like the 3.0 Diesel in the Grand Cherokee will get around 21/30 for the 2wd model, 20/28 for 4wd. In comparison, the 3.6 V-6 is 17/23 and the Hemi is around 14/20.

    I'd imagine its rating in the Ram would be similar? For instance, my Ram, with the Hemi, is rated 14/20, same as the Jeep. And the 3.6 V-6 is actually rated slightly higher than the Jeep, something like 18/25, but that's because it uses an 8-speed automatic, while the Jeep's V-6 is only a 5-speed.

    I wonder if that Diesel would make sense in the Charger or 300?
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