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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-28/pricey-apps-dated-software-may-s- top-the-connected-car

    Don’t be fooled by that new car smell. The in-dash operating system of the most sophisticated new cars runs on a “software kernel” that is at least five years old, says Derek Kuhn, vice president for sales and marketing at auto software developer QNX (BBRY), which has provided software for Mercedes-Benz (DAI), Audi (NSU), and BMW (BMW). That makes the technology about as old as that second-generation iPhone sitting unused in your bottom drawer.

    Reliability is important—and boring. Swapping out your car’s OS every 18 months for a new one is not a business carmakers want to be in. There’s a reason for that: Automakers need reliability more than they need to satisfy consumer demand for the latest tech features. Yes, software updates can be downloaded onto the car’s OS, even over the air. But during the typical seven-year life span of a car, automakers fear, a major bug might knock out the software that controls everything from diagnostics to apps. “We cannot have a scenario where 300,000 cars have to go back to the dealership at once to have the SIM card replaced,” says Marcus Keith, head of project at Audi Connect.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited March 2013
    My wife's employer has decided to replace her 2011 Taurus. She received an odd email the other day stating "due to current market conditions, it would be advantageous to replace your 2010 Taurus" or something to that effect. I don't really know what that means, but she ordered her replacement company car today. She only has 44k on her 2011 Taurus, so I'm somewhat shocked they are replacing it already.

    She had the choices of a Prius, Sentra, Altima, Fusion, and Taurus. They only offer base models, so after looking everything over briefly, the Taurus seems to make the most sense. Its base price is several thousand more than the others (don't know about the Prius) and has v6 power standard. While I don't really like the Taurus, my wife likes it because it's big and she feels safe in it. So a 2013 model is on its way.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    That's not too encouraging about the software upgrades.

    And with 48 and even 60 month car loans not being unusual anymore, how do they figure a car's life span is only seven years? Wishful thinking that people will hit the dealer lots that often?

    Sales do continue to blow the doors off.

    Edmunds.com Forecasts March Will Deliver Biggest Sales Month in Almost Five Years
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    That's not too encouraging about the software upgrades.

    While I agree, it's something I've been expecting.

    In a related incident, I have an aftermarket Parrot hands-free Bluetooth kit in my 2009 Tacoma. When Apple came out with its latest major IOS, the battery meter immediately stopped showing the power level correctly on the display, always indicating a no-power situation, regardless of phone charge level.

    When I called Parrot support to ask when I could expect a fix (seeing as how I have an iPhone 4, which is one of the more popular phones) the response I got was "never", since the hands-free unit I have is no longer in production (I bought it from Crutchfield's in 2010).

    Of course, that's just a microcosm of the larger situation, which is inter-device cooperation and compatibility. Still, its exactly what the article was describing...

    On the lifespan thing, I think they're referring to the average initial ownership period by the new car buyer, because that's about a 5-7 year period, depending upon make and model, before the owner trades it on a different unit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I smell an aftermarket business opportunity in ugrading all this too-soon defunct gadgetry, but the IP constraints and closed source nature of the software will probably limit that.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited March 2013
    Latest issue of Consumer Reports had a number of negatives on this car that got an award recently. They did not like the 4 cylinder engine. They also said that the room in the back seat was not good. Manual transmission not the best. They did say that it handled well.

    How many people will want to buy a Cadillac with, what, a 4-cylinder engine? Shades of the failed Cimarron of years past that also had a 4-cylinder?

    If Cadillac wants to sell a 4-cylinder car, should it not be priced at about the same as the world-standard Honda Accord 4-cylinder car? Seems like Cadillac is overpriced per what Consumer Reports shows as pricing. Honda is the better deal insofar as 4-cylinder cars are concerned. And, you have Honda reliability.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    How many people will want to buy a Cadillac with, what, a 4-cylinder engine? Shades of the failed Cimarron of years past that also had a 4-cylinder?

    I dunno.... BMW is selling quite a few 328's with 4 cylinder engines. And, thats the primary market segment for the ATS. Surely, even within GM, substantial improvements have been made in 4-cylinder technology in the period between the Cimarron and the ATS.

    Then again, just because BMW can make a smooth running 4-cylinder is no guarantee that GM can do the same in the ATS.

    I do remember reading something about the manual transmission being below standard, but I also remember reading that it had been addressed. Of course, maybe not enough... I can't say one way or the other.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Our space probes run on 10-20 year old operating systems at the time of launch. Performance is not important - reliablity is. Cars also to a lesser degree. You don't want your car crashing every hour or so - pull over, reboot.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I've had numerous Rentibus with both the 2.4 and the 2.5 4-cylinder and while it's gutsy off the line, it's not very willing to rev no does it sound any good doing so... The 2.5 is a little better but not much and the mileage suffers if you try to wring it out.

    IIRC, that same engine is what powers the base model ATS.

    I haven't tried BMW's new Turbo 4 pot but I've always found them to put every effort into making their engines smooth and linear thru the entire powerband. I imagine with their rep on the line, they didn't cheap out on the smaller displacement stuff. :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    She had the choices of a Prius, Sentra, Altima, Fusion, and Taurus. They only offer base models, so after looking everything over briefly, the Taurus seems to make the most sense.

    Yeah, if you're getting stuck with a base model, I think the Taurus is probably about the best bet there. I like the Fusion better than the Taurus, but I wouldn't want the base version of it. Supposedly the new Altima has really comfortable seats, but I didn't sit in the one at the auto show long enough to really judge it.

    Sentras are actually pretty big inside for a "compact" (the previous generation was, as well), but it seems odd to group it in with the Altima, Fusion, and Taurus.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Yeah, if you're getting stuck with a base model, I think the Taurus is probably about the best bet there. I like the Fusion better than the Taurus, but I wouldn't want the base version of it. Supposedly the new Altima has really comfortable seats, but I didn't sit in the one at the auto show long enough to really judge it.

    That's pretty much what we determined. I don't particularly like the Taurus. But it is large, plenty powerful and a decent highway cruiser. I'll still take a decent v6 (for 2013 the Taurus has 288hp) over the other midsize 4 cyl options.

    I tried to encourage my wife into at least going to test drive an Altima, but she didn't bite. Oh well, it looks like the new Taurus has a few minor improvements over her current one.

    Sentras are actually pretty big inside for a "compact" (the previous generation was, as well), but it seems odd to group it in with the Altima, Fusion, and Taurus.

    I agree. The only thing I can think of is some who live/work in metro areas may prefer a small car. The Sentra is definitely an odd ball among the options.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    this has been my hell week in car luck. Wed 8 AM call from son that he rear ended someone in the DeVille. Car is totalled. Just 1 week after doing all 4 brakes and spending $450 at the Buick dealer for a power window regulator and motor. Then my other son finally brings the Mustang home from college and tells me that it started making a squeaking sound when turning left or right and I spent most of today trying to figure it out and do other badly needed maintenance like oil change, corroded battery terminals, low washer fluid and checking brake wear. Right now I suspect the d/s ball joint. 160k on a '98 Mustang. Then went out for dinner and the '98 Astro started having electrical issues and i barely made it into a parking lot before it died. Three of us were in it and 3 other vehicles were 5 miles away at home. Ended walked to son's job and borrow the riv and 2 hrs later the astro got home using the silverado battery and that battery is now on a charger while the astro probably had the rebuilt alternator go bad after maybe 8k miles? now I need to charge astro battery tomorrow and take out alternator to go test it. While taking riv over to jump astro, noticed riv leaking coolant from radiator side tank. Good thing it is a 4 day weekend for me. The Silverado and Malibu are still OK. Actually glad to be rid of the DeVille. My son put 10k miles on it in 20 weeks. Insane for a 20 yr old working 5 miles from home for near min wage to be driving 500 miles a week in a V8. Plan was for college boy to take astro back up to college while I got Mustang fixed. Now he has to drive with bad ball joint till I get Astro running right. Riv may get by with some stop leak for a while cause with 191 k miles, I don't want to put $ into it. $130 in brake parts already this month for it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Do you have a wrecking yard to keep all those parts? Those Caddy brakes can probably be sold on Craigslist. I am glad I know longer need to work on my cars. I did my time working in two wrecking yards during high school. Fingernails always greasy. I hope you make sure those boys get their hands greasy. They need to learn how to maintain their own vehicles until they have a high paying job.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > he rear ended someone in the DeVille. Car is totalled.

    I guess it's too late to mention that the rear "control arms" that the mechanics said need replaced can have the bushings alone pressed in for replacement like on other H-bodies. Of course the whole arm was listed at about $50 when I looked it up on Rockauto.

    Sorry about your bad luck. It sounds like the old saying, "When it pours, it pours."

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    SAIC owns 51% of GM joint venture in China. How long before they take over GM in the USA?

    China’s top automaker, Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp. or SAIC, is moving its U.S. office into the center of Birmingham.

    Gov. Rick Snyder was among those attending the private reception in the new SAIC offices in the center on North Old Woodward in downtown Birmingham.

    SAIC representatives declined to comment on the reception publicly, saying they were not allowed to speak to the media. However, they confirmed SAIC, which also is General Motors Co.’s chief partner in China, is moving from smaller office in Troy.

    Owned primarily by the Shanghai city government, SAIC is one of the world’s 10 largest automakers, having built an estimated 3.64 million vehicles in 2011 and finishing just behind Honda and Fiat-Chrysler on a list of the world’s top automakers.

    http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/06/12/news/local_news/doc4fd7bf938f- 28d354966365.txt
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    "Partner"...still gives me a chuckle. That's no real partnership. No "joint venture" in leading IP, social and environmental criminal China lacks control by the native entity. I wonder how much was bribed to have those offices located in AL.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, you're still in the edit window so maybe you'll catch that this Birmingham is a suburb of Detroit.

    I'm thinking it's a good change to steal some Chinese tech. :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Then again, just because BMW can make a smooth running 4-cylinder is no guarantee that GM can do the same in the ATS.

    I don't expect anyone to agree, because I know how preconceived notions can be, but if somebody was blindfolded and put in my Cobalt idling, you wouldn't be able to tell it was running. Seriously. 64K miles, original plugs and wires.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited March 2013
    Hahaha, oops. :shades: Still interesting, maybe they can "visit" some other makers in the area and be "influenced" by their tech. Makes even more sense than locating to a low cost/low amenity/subsidized area to the south.

    I don't think China is exactly innovating in terms of automotive technology just yet. Easier for them to steal or buy the ideas of others. What a Pandora's Box.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited March 2013
    Seriously. 64K miles, original plugs and wires.

    Ditto for my 1995 318ti track rat- with 135,000 miles. I 'm more than happy with a four cylinder if it has sufficient power; I'd actually prefer it to a V6 in fact. I think that the biggest hurdle that the ATS will have to surmount is Cadillac's own dealers. I'd be willing to bet that there is already more than one ATS that has been fitted with a "carriage" roof and the gold package. When Lincoln made their feeble attempt to market the LS as a BMW alternative I know for a fact that there was more than one Lincoln insider pulling his/her hair out because the dealers were pimping out every LS they received.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I don't expect anyone to agree, because I know how preconceived notions can be, but if somebody was blindfolded and put in my Cobalt idling, you wouldn't be able to tell it was running.

    Is that still true under hard acceleration. Not trying to cause trouble, just actually curious. I've heard a lot of 4 cyls that are quiet until revved and then they sound like a washing machine.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Well, you're still in the edit window so maybe you'll catch that this Birmingham is a suburb of Detroit.

    LOL - good one Steve!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    It's hard to keep track sometimes. "The" Birmingham (well, "the" US one) is still a big steel town so I could see the Chinese setting up some kind of shop there. Mostly I noticed because I couldn't figure out why my governor would be in Alabama (finally got to where I recognize his name).

    I still have trouble confusing Marquette University down in Wisconsin with the largest city here in the UP of Michigan.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've heard a lot of 4 cyls that are quiet until revved and then they sound like a washing machine.

    That is very true for the Subaru Outback 2.5L 4 banger. It had a horrible CVT and screamed under normal acceleration up a long 55 MPH hill. Not a chance I would consider anything with CVT. Maybe the 6 speed manual would be ok.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I thought of AL when I first saw the story. The Rick Snyder reference was my key. So I googled it and it is just part of Detroit. Maybe more of the Chinafication of Michigan. The Chinese already own large tracts in Michigan and Ohio.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "Partner"...still gives me a chuckle. That's no real partnership. No "joint venture" in leading IP, social and environmental criminal China lacks control by the native entity. I wonder how much was bribed

    Better get used to it. Washington is buying 3 times as much from China as they are selling to them.

    China is Washington’s largest trade partner, buying $11 billion of Washington exports and selling $31 billion of the state’s imports. In the last few years China overtook Japan as Washington’s second largest export destination, after Canada.

    http://wsm.wsu.edu/s/index.php?id=977#.UViRtjfQg3U
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    How is that relevant to anything? I wonder what the difference is in CA, especially with the Apple-Foxconn link.

    I suppose WA sells apples and planes to our "partner".
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Planes yes, Apples NO. China sells us apple juice. 80% of our juice products are from China. No store bought juice for this kid.

    I was merely pointing out the China connection is with the whole USA. No state is untouched. They practically own US. If the wackos in DC continue the current level of waste, there is no doubt they will own US.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Isn't that kind of an idea though? Mutually assured destruction. They are so tied to us, if we collapse, so do they. A slave labor empire isn't worth a lot if there's no market for the production. They send over cheap junk to satiate the masses, we keep their factories humming. and some scum at the top on both sides profit.

    And about owning, the old adage again comes up: if you owe the bank a thousand dollars, that's your problem - if you owe the bank a billion dollars, that's the bank's problem.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    if you owe the bank a thousand dollars, that's your problem - if you owe the bank a billion dollars, that's the bank's problem.

    I think the example in Cyprus kind of shoots that theory down. Did the banks lose or did the depositors lose? If we were to default on our massive loans from China, they would just pass the loss on to the people. Governments and banks seem to be immune from losses.

    I do agree as long as we continue to buy crap made in China our economy will continue it's current slide into the pit. As in the past most of those on top manage to avoid any real inconvenience.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited April 2013
    I've heard a lot of 4 cyls that are quiet until revved and then they sound like a washing machine.

    I've driven my friends '11 Equinox with the 2.4. Sure it sounds quiet at idle, but turn on the a/c it shakes someone put a brick in a washing machine. Under heavy throttle it sounds like every GM 4cyl I've been around, crude.

    Same guy has '12 Silverado extended cab LTZ. Rode around in it this weekend. God, I don't know why anyone would buy one without getting nearly for free. Cheap ugly interior and whole truck shimmied over any type of road imperfection. It doesn't feel nearly as solid as the recent Fords or Rams I've sampled. I I'll be curious to see how the '14 model is.

    My Expedition needs to see the dealer. Bad miss is back under hard acceleration, sometimes the CEL will flash, sometimes it don't come on at all. Last time it did this it was a coil pack and plugs which turned into a 4 figure fiasco when 3 plugs snapped off.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Cyprus was media hype. Look what happened in the end - more reporters lining up at banks than people. Also comparing a virtually irrelevant nation with the superpower policeman of the world is kind of crazy, IMO. If the US government defaults on Chinese loans, China is in deep doodoo, and our 1% will have a laughing fit. Nothing would get passed along. If anything, it would encourage others to default on the same loans, and the house of cards would become shaky.

    Cheap (shoddy and disposable) goods are the only "trickle down"benefit seen by real people. Time to end that theory.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cheap (shoddy and disposable) goods are the only "trickle down"benefit seen by real people. Time to end that theory.

    I think you are living in the past. China now builds world class electronics. I doubt we would be able to do any better than the Chinese building iPhone, iPads and iPods. We don't even have the technology or skills to build a decent TV anymore. We assemble parts from China and elsewhere in our cars.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    China will build whatever quality you ask of them.

    We have the technology and skills to build decent electronics. What we don't have are people willing to do so for $60 a month, companies willing to cut their profit to build in the US or people willing to pay for a US built electronic item if the companies aren't willing to cut their profit.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the US still leads the World in Musical Electronics. Though I don't see a lot of familiar brands on the Made in USA list any more. Ampeg is no longer made in USA. :sick:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    - if you owe the bank a billion dollars, that's the bank's problem.

    Evidently, not in the USA.

    That's a taxpayer bailout "problem", or as I like to refer to it, a "benefit".
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Same guy has '12 Silverado extended cab LTZ. Rode around in it this weekend. God, I don't know why anyone would buy one without getting nearly for free. Cheap ugly interior and whole truck shimmied over any type of road imperfection. It doesn't feel nearly as solid as the recent Fords or Rams I've sampled.

    Your observation of the Silvy's interior matches mine of the Traverse I rented. Pretty big for not enough storage. Really black and plasticky interior. It rode reasonably well, but was not what I'd call "enjoyable". I certainly wouldn't buy one, even if in the market for that size vehicle. Or perhaps the whole market of that size is this way? Somehow I doubt that.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Evidently, not in the USA.

    That's a taxpayer bailout "problem", or as I like to refer to it, a "benefit".


    So the revision of the line is:

    "If you own the bank a thousand dollars, it's your problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, it's the taxpayer's problem." :cry:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited April 2013
    China builds things, with western oversight and standards. China doesn't develop or innovate. There's a difference between design and assembly. China is about price, not quality.

    We most certainly have the skills to design and build a TV, but we have an execucoward class who feels entitled to such huge margins, and a decimated real world purchasing power held by the masses (trickle down sure is working!), that would make such a TV incompatible with the market.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    Aveo was so cheap the only thing on the Monroney anyone would notice was the price itself.

    Encore pushes up to $30k or so, so people might care a bit more.

    Then again, maybe not so much any more, given they can make decent cars in Korea nowadays.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I really like the new CTS, too.

    Funny, there was an ad for the current CTS when I was scanning image of the new one, and the current one (which I always thought looked fine) suddenly seemed old.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Does she pay for gas? Or do they reimburse her by the mile?

    I've heard of people picking a hybrid only because they end up pocketing the difference.

    Having said that, I would have gone with the Altima or Fusion.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Does she pay for gas? Or do they reimburse her by the mile?

    I've heard of people picking a hybrid only because they end up pocketing the difference.

    Having said that, I would have gone with the Altima or Fusion.


    Her employer provides the car and pays for everything (gas, maintenance, insurance, etc). She pays income taxes on personal use.

    They gave her a choice of cars. The Taurus has the most standard features and a base price that is about $5k higher than the other choices. Since they only purchase base models with basically no options, the Taurus is the best choice (in our opinion).

    Honestly, I'd prefer it if they'd pay her mileage and not provide a car. Then we'd buy a car she'd want.

    Though I'll admit it's nice only having to buy and maintain one vehicle.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, a base Fusion is plasticky and would come with the least interesting engine on the menu.

    Base Altima also lacks a lot of the cool stuff.

    Too bad they don't set a price limit and let you choose. You could probably get an Altima SV with Navi for less than a base Taurus.

    That is a nice perk.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Too bad they don't set a price limit and let you choose. You could probably get an Altima SV with Navi for less than a base Taurus.

    I agree.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Or let you pay extra to get the things you wanted.

    Starting with the $27.5k starting price for a base Taurus.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Guy across the street had one of those, but traded for the swoopy new style model.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Or let you pay extra to get the things you wanted.

    Yeah, that would be nice. I'd gladly take an extra tax hit or pay extra towards the lease rate to get what she'd want.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    When I replaced the alternator in 2011 the lone little wire to the back of it broke on me. I soldered it but now it was broken in same place 18 months later. I soldered an extension of 6 inches onto the wire so it can be plugged into the back of the alternator without distress on the wire and all is fine again with the Astro. Labor intensive taking out the alt and testing it. Also discovered the source of serp belt noisier lately...the belt tensioner was coming apart, causing 1/4 inch misalignment of the tensioner pulley. New tensioner has quieted down the belt. I do really need a new belt soon. Maybe it was a good thing I had to tear into it because if a tensioner breaks while driving, that could be a mess.

    Got first quote on ball joints for the '98 Mustang...$440 for both. Basically $200 in labor and part markup per side. At 160500 miles, the Mustang may soon need exhaust work, head or intake gaskets, water pump, a/c, struts, and has a small rust spot on the rr wheelwell that I patched last summer. I saw a 2006 base Mustang on cargurus for $8350 with 78k miles on it that would be a nice trade up that has 5k less miles that the '98 did when we got it. But really can't complain when the car I got my son in 10th grade is still going 8 yrs later with only one shop repair for a sensor that was $150 total.
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