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Comments
The 2008 RL has a beautiful interior and would be a pretty good value for under $40,000. The engine is a real jewel, too. To be fair, however, it is a smaller car than an MKS and based on my recent drive in one, they ride about like a Honda Accord and have similar road noise. I haven't driven an MKS yet but assuming they are even better than the Taurus in ride and quiet, they will be pretty impressive, indeed.
It is a crying shame that the twin-turbo engine is not available at launch. That would really take the MKS to a higher level and make it more unique. I also wish they would re-think the material used on the console and center stack.
That's the argument that the Honda/Toyota fans used to use when Ford, Mercury and Lincoln had deep discounts and the imports were selling at MSRP. If it's good for the gander........
carolinabob was way off base with his post which is why I didnt bother to respond.
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For those whom do not want to go that high in price, I believe you will truly like the new MKZ. Styling favors the MKR look and the interior is similar to the MKS with its own styling.
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The Mustang sports a leaner slightly meaner look. The directional turn signals are coming back as well. :shades:
I've read all the postings on the positives and negatives and at this point I believe you get a lot of bang (MKS) for the buck compared to others. I am not sure they will sell 40,000 a year though. I think much depends on the economy. :surprise:
I'll let one of the other folks take up this point with you. I will say that I know the Infiniti-Nissan connection is a lot looser than some of the others. Eg the Murano is FWD while the FXes are RWD. I think the acuras are just slightly modified hondas and while that may be a good thing for reliability, it aint so good for driveability as I can attest at least from driving a 2007 Accord for a week while my LS was getting bumper fixed. The accord is not a very nice driving/handling car. I expected a lot better.
The only problem with the MKS sharing the Taurus platform is that it uses a transverse engine and it's FWD based. The platform itself is very good for what it is, and they've done all they can do to differentiate the MKS from the Taurus (100% unique sheetmetal, interior, (slightly) upgraded engine and LOTS of tech toys.
They can still do better (center stack, RWD, better performance, etc.) but the MKS is the best that Lincoln has done since the LS came out in '99. Unfortunately it will take another few years to rebuild the brand after several years of total neglect.
I was hoping the MKZ would get the MKS style interior - that's the one thing I didn't like about the MKZ/Zephyr and one reason I got the Fusion instead. Throw in a hybrid MKZ and it will do well.
The brochure touts all the "available" things like radar cruise control and voice navigation and adaptive headlights and rain-sensing wipers. Also that exclusive (like the Focus doesnt have it too?) sync system and such. There's one picture of the interior - a sepia toned B&W so the center stack doesn't look black. The interior actually looks reasonably nice in the photo, though I can see how they lit the dark areas brighter so it wouldnt look so blah.
Strangely, the car doesn't seem to have any mechanical systems like engines or transmissions or drivetrains since none are mentioned. Oh wait, sorry. There must be an engine since a big picture of a little button says "Engine Start/Stop." Must not use gas either since no EPA numbers are given. All in all, typical Lincoln marketing. They must think I either have blue hair - or no hair. Unfortunately they are right in one of those guesses. If only this car actually had some decent mechanicals and an attractive interior. Cause the outside is nice. Even in sepia. They say I'll be getting more marketing brochures in the future. WOnder if I should write and tell em to save the money? Nah, they'd probably send em anyway.
Like you I wondered about the stats. Funny enough even Consumer Reports have not been given a car to get those stats yet, why? Anyway I ordered a later model one (October-November time frame). They should have some stats by then. Ford has invited me to a Web seminar on the MKS tomorrow. I let you know how it goes.
Boy! A web seminar? Hey, gimme the url - I'd love to give them MY opinion
I'm not saying it wasn't a little cheesy, but at least they're trying to emphasize a feature that the competition doesn't have. As opposed to doing glossy brochures with no info on the car or features.
So what would you do to market the MKS (as is)?
I went on to say that America is not the perfect game in town, but it looks like to be the best one, why? Not because we solve our problems, but because we strive to work out solutions towards improving situation where the problem resides. Like everyone else we have made our mistakes, but unlike your society we have to ability to say what is not right and strive towards correction. The ability to recognize the need for correction and to make an effort towards a goal makes us unique indeed that I believe is the core of our patriotism.
Like America, automobile companies have made their mistakes and will continue to do so. Trying to develop a product that everyone will like is mission impossible. Getting one produced to get just 10% of the population to want and buy is no easy task as well. I will say that I have appreciated the effort made from all the car companies. They have truly come out with some innovative technology that were dreams and not even thought of just 5-10 years ago.
Yet with all this advancement, sitting on their laurels, greed, pride, whatever you wish to call it has put all the auto companies in a challenging situation for the future of their very existence. To me they have a serious balance act to develop. How do you make a product that will run on X, have the cost of X, and yet support the infrastructure of X? A doctor told me once about Aids, he said “We have the cure for aids. Hell a shot of battery acid will kill aids, but unfortunately it will kill you too.”
So there is a balancing act going on. Some efforts produce greats results in the public eye yet many can’t afford the product, while others can be down right lemons :lemon: no matter how low the cost. I believe the MKS was an attempt to achieve a balance. Did it? This remains to be seen, but again I do appreciate the effort.
So I apologize if you believe I was too much on the subject. I will tone down my excitement and delightfulness going forward.
Actually, there's nothing so "wrong" with the MKS. It is understated in the same way that the Jaguar XF is (neither are the bold moves they could have been), but also derivative of the Japanese luxury look that it just doesn't appeal to me. But those looks will be dandy for a lot of people.
Still, a few tweaks by the designers could have made it pleasing to me too without putting off anyone else. The wheelbase is too short for the length. How difficult would it have been to extend it a couple inches? And the front overhang needs trimming. It looks so old school FWD. Of course Ford even puts lumpy long noses on its rear drive offerings. The new Australian Falcon looks like a FWD machine when compared to the competing Holden model.
Bottom line, it is worlds better than the awful Town Car and the mediocre MKZ. I am hoping that the coming rear drive sedan will be less bulky in style and more like the MKR. In any event, the MKS will be stop gap. In a few short years, it will be completely re-done and I suspect all vestiges of the porky Taurus look will be gone. Then maybe I could consider it, FWD or not.
I think the Lincolns of today are WAY overpriced (Z and X I could argue the same thing, maybe more forcefully) Having fallen prey to this myself what with a white elephant called a Navigator in my garage right now, I have a sort of empathetic pity for folks buying new Lincolns. Personally it is something I will never do again. X-plan or no X-plan. I would not make the same argument were the mks anything like the LS. I dont feel 'taken' on that car as it's a great automobile, not a gussied Ford but as we know, related to Jaguar S-type.
So my advice to anyone who really wants a mks is - visit a shrink. If that doesn't help, wait 2 years and pick one up for 1/2 price or less off a 2 year lease. Use the rest of the money for a long vacation. Call Elliot Spitzer for phone numbers to help set up that vacation. Live it up.
I personally decided the MKX was not worth the extra $6K over the Edge when I bought an Edge Limited 3 weeks ago. In some cases I preferred the Edge styling (grille and gauges/center stack) so it came down to whether the THX stereo and cooled seats were worth $6K. To me, for this particular vehicle, it wasn't.
I don't think Lincoln will have any problem selling 30k-40k of these per year without having to put cash on the hood. Just think of it as the new Continental.
And when the GRWD platform shows up they can go after that market.
Another data point though - my LS sport with every option except heated seats, stickered at $37,500, which is less than a base mks FWD. I paid about what a mkz costs.
Interesting that you, a former LS owner, have eschewed the Lincoln offerings for your last 2 cars and gotten the Ford versions instead. I think that says a lot.
Not really in my case - the LS was a splurge item that I did enjoy but decided that I didn't need such a vehicle as a daily commuter, so I took a cheaper, more fuel efficient route. I may consider a Fiesta when the time comes to replace it, depending on whether I'm still commuting every day. My drive is about 25 minutes, 11 miles and there is nothing fun about it. 10 years ago it was, before the development and traffic congestion hit the area. I'd rather have a cheap commuter car and a nice, fun sports car to use on weekends. As soon as I get these darn kids through college.
My wife, OTOH, is a good example. The Aviator offered enough over the Explorer to justify the added cost. However, we couldn't make the same argument about the MKX. I don't think it's a bad vehicle and Lincoln is better off with it than without it, but it definitely needs some improvements in 2010 to stay competitive. Throw in a MKS style grille, some unique sheet metal, upgraded interior with MKS luxury features and a 300 hp 3.7L base engine and you can call it complete.
What I dont understand is what you and you wife and me and my wife and Ford and Lincoln are going to do in the future. Today's latest headlines: gas at $12.00/gallon soon and Obama is expected to crush McCain. Either of these alone would destroy the economy. Both together look like doomsday to me. We're in some pretty sh*t now, man is all I can say. Just freaking nbelievable. And NO ONE will drill for oil in ANWR. Oh, ne other headline - American farmers are going back to using MULES. Next Pinto Ford sells may have legs instead of wheels. Gimme some more drugs, doc, I need more drugs.
Skipping past all the Political “stuff”, a couple of posts that caught my eye referred to “The Good Old Days” – when Jim Rogers and Mark K ( trans. engineer ) were contributing on the LS board. Those were, indeed, interesting times. One reason I bought my first LS was that participation.
As OW knows, I have been posting mostly in the Pontiac G8 forums. I have found that, though I certainly enjoyed some of the “bells & whistles” provided by the 2 LSs I had, I am more interested in the RWD handling dynamics and the V8 TQ provided by something like the G8 GT. And I am willing to forego a level ( or 2 ) of interior fit, finish & materials as well as a few features I have had before, in order to have a sedan that has close to a 50\50 F\R weight balance, RWD and capable of a 13.5-ish quarter mile.
The G8 GT is ( clearly ) not designed to be directly comparable to the MKS. It will not have several features ( standard or optional ) that the Lincoln will offer. But it is a 4DR Sedan – that looks like it will be dynamically superior to the Lincoln – and offer all the luxury & refinement that ** I ** require. Though it will certainly lack a number of features & “tech toys” that Lincoln will offer.
[[[ Must feed TQ addiction. ]]]
And the G8 GT’s EPA MPG estimates are comparable to RWD V8 sedans such as the BMW 550i – and the highway estimate ( and early return from buyers agrees ) is exactly the same as an Infiniti G35 – a smaller & lighter Sport Sedan, with a 3.5L V6.
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Let me reiterate: I am most emphatically ** NOT ** trying to convince anyone here that the G8 GT is ‘better’ than the MKS. )))
I am not really surprised that Lincoln has veered ( ? ) away from trying to compete with BMW – or even Caddy, in the Sport Sedan segment.
But I am ( still ) rather disappointed. As I posted in several ways some time ago: If Lincoln had introduced an LS with ( a version of ) the Jag’s Supercharged V8 and the Jag’s 6-speed ZF automatic trans. – and at a price point that reasonably & realistically reflected the incremental additional cost of only this upgraded drivetrain ( essentially a “Lincoln LS – R” ) I would have bought one. Period. In a heartbeat. In 2004 ( when I did buy a left-over 2003 LS ), or 2005, or 2006, or 2007.
[ The Jag S-Type R was just a bit too much money for me – and still used that odd ‘J-Gate’ instead of a real manumatic function – via the shift lever or paddles. ]
Since I really do want a RWD V8 Sport Sedan for my next purchase, and the MKS does not fit, I will continue to check here occasionally – but only to see if Ford \ LM ever does seem to be moving toward producing sedans I’d find interesting again.
Carry on!
Oh, and this recent post:
“What about the TATA Nano Vanden Plas edition?”
Absolutely cracked me up . . .
- Ray
Y2K and 2003 Lincoln LS V8s – fast receding into the rear view mirror of my memory . . .
Completely agree. And u may have missed it but I posted here or mabe on the LS board that I had been visiting the G8 board and that I was not surprised that I saw some of our old LS folks over there. I dont blame u in the least. Unless u want a FWD rolling sofa, no need to go into the Lincoln showrooms for at least several years if ever.
Ford is finally developing a new GRWD platform for Lincoln (and presumably a cheaper version for Ford). This wasn't feasible until Mulally forced global platform engineering between Europe, Australia and North America. Why they didn't do this years ago is still a mystery. It should have been done for the 2nd gen LS.
Absolutely agree with that.
I dont understand how you can say this though:
"Torque steer isn't the big problem - it's the fact that the nose is too heavy and the chassis is not balanced. "
I mean its a good assumption, but not having driven the car, that's all it is isnt it?
That was a general statement about FWD cars in general not handling as well as their RWD counterparts. It wasn't specific to any vehicle.
I will test drive the Lincoln and am hoping for the best.
I am secretly, well openly now I guess, hoping that they will see the light and intro the ecoboost engine sooner rather than later. By sooner I mean by the end of this year or the very beginning of next year. When Hyundai's flagship is putting out 375hp, Lincoln really can't afford to be maxing out at 100 fewer ponies. Is the technology not ready or are they just trying to milk sales of the base engine before releasing the turbo?
I would think that Lincoln would realize that they do not have the luxury of time and need to make as big an impact as possible with their new flagship. But it seems that that has been, and may still be, their problem. Either they don't see the urgency or don't know how to make an impact.
They may have to following Chrysler’s route with a gas promo of their own. Some of my partners whom have ordered the MKS are already thinking about alternatives (FWD rather than AWD, etc). According to the numbers on the web site and other places, there's not much difference in MPG between the two. I guess it depends on your driving habits. From what the experts are saying, a lot depends on that.
I believe the ecoboost has been a little misleading. If you think the ecoboost will give you better mpg from the 3.7 power plant, you may be mistaken. Save on a Comparable V8, maybe with some of the numbers Ford says it can spit out. So much depends on what the driver wants and like the gas prices, which may be changing just as fast also. :confuse:
IMO, the reason they need the Ecoboost is to add some "buzz" to an otherwise very ordinary vehicle. The MKS has been described as a replacement for the long-discontinued Continental. Maybe, but the old Conti had more power, a more upscale interior, and an adjustable suspension. The EPA ratings at the time were similar to the base V6 MKS. Obviously, the MKS is superior in many ways but I would expect more progress.
Speaking of fuel economy, let's face it - a 4200 pound vehicle is not going to be stellar in that department and still maintain the performance and drivability that buyers expect of a $40,000+ vehicle. Having said that, I am surprised that the highway mileage is only rated at 24 for FWD model. I am also surprised that the AWD model is only one MPG less. The FWD Taurus is 28 and while the AWD model is 24. I know from experience that the Taurus FWD will easily exceed 28 on a highway trip. With such a small bump in engine size, I expected the MKS to do nearly as well despite the 400 lb. difference in weight.
We should be seeing some driving reports on the MKS soon. I hope the magazines and online auto sites can get their hands on an Ecoboost test mule soon, as well.
Large sedans tend to weigh nearly 1,000 lbs more than they did 15-20 years ago. Find a way to cut weight (and retain all the safety and rigidity of current cars) and mileage will be a lot better.
For as much as I complain about the MKS, I will probably end up buying one! I really would like to replace my LS before winter. But I also would like a step up in performance as well as luxury. Another thing that we don't know about the Ecoboost MKS is what else will be part of the Ecoboost package? If they try to make a sports sedan out of it with stiff suspension and black-out trim, it will not appeal to me so much.