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Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The MKS has a FWD design that accentuates the weight distribution imbalance. This setup was/is good for economy cars to maximize interior space on a small footprint. In order to do so, however, the engine is placed, at least in part, forward of the front wheels.

    For a luxury design, the MKS is proportioned an awfully lot like lesser FWD models. FWD can be designed with better weight distribution by moving the engine back to a more mid-ships location, as Audi has done with their newest offerings, or as Acura did with the old Vigor. The original Olds Toronado (this back when FWD was still exotic and expensive) was decidedly "cab backward." The problem with designing a better FWD chassis is that by the time you engineer out some of the inherent handling problems, you may as well have bought and paid for a RWD chassis.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    But isn't the MKS using a Ford Taurus platform? What is the weight distribution of the MKS as compared to the Taurus? I believe that AUDI has engineered the torque steer out of its front wheel drive vehicles at least ten years ago. Did Ford do the same with the MKS? I believe That the MKS has a wider track than the Taurus but I think that the weight distribution is the same. Does anyone know the answers to these questions?
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Yes, mks is based on Taurus. So if u want to get a real good feel for how the mks is likely to run, go drive a Taurus right now. mks will have a little more hp. I dont know if they did anything additional to affect balance or torque steer.
    Another data point would be a 2006 Volvo S80. Or just be paient! :)
  • docrwdocrw Member Posts: 94
    The MKS probably won't compete with an STS, never mind CTS, when it comes to handling or performance. The point is, Lincoln can not afford to offer a flagship sedan without flagship numbers. This is all about perception, but the reality is that most potential buyers of the MKS are not looking for a super handling car. They want a comfortable car with enough straight line power to make them feel justified in spending the premium over a Taurus. Lets face it, horsepower still sells, and today horsepower with the perception of better fuel economy sells even better. If someone can buy a 320hp STS V8 or a 350+hp MKS with ecoboost for 10-15K less, and the MKS will get 18/25 versus 14/22 then Lincoln can at least make the MKS seem competitive. As far as torque steer goes, it should not be a problem, that is why companies make AWD versions of FWD cars.

    For me, with two kids, I am not looking at carving curves like I did in my younger single days. I'm looking for a car that holds everyone comfortably and offers at least a modicum of good handling manners. If I can also smoke some kid off the line at a traffic light then all the better. :)
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    It would be great if Lincoln offered a rwd high performance sedan that could compete with the best of its competitors. I seen the MKR show car and would love to see this car go into production. I think Lincoln needs a performance vehicle to restore credibility with the those under 55 who would consider purchasing a performance sedan. This is Lincoln's flagship
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I completely agree with everything you said. Power does sell, even if the buyer never uses all of it! This market (soft luxury) is not about razor sharp handling. It is more about a quiet refined ride, upscale interior, and creature comforts. The ride should be velvety firm - compliant, yet controlled. Not blue hair soft, but not BMW harsh.

    My wife has a new Taurus. It is an awesome car for the money. It rides great, will easily out accelerate my LS V8, and is extremely quiet. In fact, it has far less road noise than the 2008 Acura RL I drove recently. Is an MKS with the base V6 worth $20,000 more to me than we paid for her Taurus? That will be tough for me to justify.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    For me I try to look for a balance. Yes power is good, but I like the luxury as well. I believe from the many areas of ideas for the MKS, one was from the Taurus model. Even my 2004 surprises me with its power and quick acceleration and it is a 3.0. In addition, the ability to go down the hightway with little noise coming from the sunroof when it is open tells me the designers were really thinking in that area as well. I believe the MKS will make its mark. Even though I order mine already, I will have to wait for the 20 inch rims which I understand will be available in August now. The only thing I wish is that Ford gave a model to consumer reports so they could get the stats.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    bruce: I am surprised to hear that your V6 Taurus would win a 0-60 against your V8 LS. I'll put my V6 Getrag LS up against your Taurus anytime - name the place - oreferably some place with curves:)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    In case y'all missed it, Ford is laying off another 10-12% of white collar American workers. And they've given up on being profitable in 2009. Just the facts, Ma'am. I wonder how many will be engineers?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    We all know that Ford is in trouble. Their best comeback plan hit the wall of changing circumstances. They need more than a miracle worker. They have no more money to do anything more than what they have already planned, but it is either not enough or not soon enough.

    Lincoln is worse off than Ford...at least there are some new Ford models coming every few months (a necessity to survive these days). Lincoln on the other hand has announced no plans yet on how it will save the Navigator--a vehicle that went from the top to the bottom in a few short years, because no one had a clue about how to keep it relevant. The Town Car is now deservedly fleet only, and what a piece of crap it is by comparison to anything current. The MKZ will never have a chance to make a real mark until they give it a body that doesn't look like a Fusion with makeup. The MKS is very belated (and do any of you have one in hand yet??) and can't keep the ball in the air by itself. Lincoln can't bring the MKT to market until next year. When the Lincoln Escape will be sold is not yet pinned down. Meanwhile, how many more years can Ford soldier on losing great gobs of money before someone else swallows them up or they have to close shop? Doesn't seem like the Ford family has any clue what to do.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Curves? FWD vehicles don't go around no stinkin' curves!!

    I hope you have auto insurance with full glass coverage. If you drag race a new Taurus with your stickshift LS, the Taurus will pull away from you so fast, it will suck your windshield out. I hope you enjoy the view of the back end of that FWD appliance.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    bruce: You quack me up! :) You shoulda seen my 01 getrag burning up everything in sight at Mania 3 on the track. Even the Mitsus and WRXes got outta my way! :) As far as enjoying the view of the rear of the Taurus, I think I'll wait for the 2010 ecoBoost model!

    gregg: Yeah, it is sad. I acually thought they were getting back on their feet. But I guess not. I dont see how they make the Navigator more relevant - unless they do something like what GM did with the Tahoe/Yukon by coming out with a hybrid drivetrain. But even at 20/20 mpg for a huge SUV, those dont seem to be flying off the shelves.
    BTW, you forgot the MKX in your rant - but that very well could have been on purpose. :surprise:
    The world has definitely changed around all of us, including Ford. Once again it seems only Toyota had the foresight - do they have a crystal ball? At least Ford is planning on a hybrid Fusion soon - is it 2009 or 2010? I cant recall. It certainly wont hurt, though whether they can build enough of them is another question, as is the reliability. I've read some reports about the Escape hybrid that seem to say it's not nearly as reliable as the almost identical camry/prius/highlander. But that's just anecdotal at this point.
    I dunno. I'm trying to be more open-minded about it all. Fair and balanced if you will. ;) But another big layoff of Americans is not high on my list of things to admire about Ford. Mulally of course will still get his mega millions.
    Other news this week seemed to put more nails in Mercury's coffin. Dont know how smart it is to kill off a brand that is high up on the reliability charts when it only costs like $8 to build a Merc over a Ford. Oh well. What do I know anyway?
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Even though I order mine already, I will have to wait for the 20 inch rims which I understand will be available in August now.

    Datagen, have you heard anything on the availability of the wood trim for the door panels? That and the 20" wheels have been removed from the "build & price" section of the Lincoln website.

    The online sites are providing first drive information on the 2009 Mazda 6 now and it is not due until around August. I would expect to see reports for the MKS pretty soon. I am still not 100% sure when the official launch is scheduled.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I have before me in my formerly axle grease stained fingers a training guide for Lincoln dealership sales personnel. It is intended to teach them how to demonstrate the features of the MKS.

    It lists the HP at 275 and the torque at 276 ft.-lbs. That is a bit more than was originally shown. In fine print, it says that these are the numbers using premium and that the numbers on regular are 273 HP and 270 ft.-lbs of torque. The date on this material is 5/08 so it is quite current. The instructions for the salesperson is to "encourage the customer to experience the strong acceleration from a standing start and during passing."

    A question for the gadgetologists among us: Will the MKS have voice recognition for things like changing the radio station or adjusting the heating/AC system? Is that common with a factory Nav system? My bosses Acura RL has that and he delights in saying "passenger side 72 degrees" or "FM 102.5" and watching his commands being carried out. He loves bossing things around but I must admit it is kind of cool.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Why is Ford in financial trouble? Not just Ford but the big three. The big three decided to produce suvs at the expense of their auto lines. They poured most of their funds for product development into producing new and improved suvs.While that was great for those that wanted an suv, it was not great for those that wanted a quality car.The big three wanted a quick return on profit while also believing that this is the one segment of the market that the foreign competition couldn't compete in. This led to the big three offering low quality obsolete auto designs. Toyota and other foreign manufactures filled the gap that the big three neglected with high quality modern designs for the auto market. The big three decided to cede the auto market to their foreign competition believing that the suv market would never weaken.Toyota and other foreign manufacturers also are in a better position to weather a fall off in sales in a market segment. The markets that Toyota and other foreign manufacturers compete in on a global scale are not really suv markets.The one that is ,namely, the North American market.Toyota and others could offer suvs without neglecting their car lines because of their car sales in other markets.Toyota and other foreign manufacturers couldn't devote most of its resources on suvs. To do so, would have neglected 90% of their global market. This also made it easier for them to devote R&D into auto design because Toyota and other foreign competition have the ability to spread out the cost of R&D throughout their global market. The big three really doesn't have a global market to do this with. American manufactures don't export Chevys or Fords to Europe or to Japan or Malaysia etc. The big three really can't export American made vehicles to Europe and other foreign markets because these would compete with their foreign subsidiaries. Thus, The big threes domestic auto market has to suffer because of limited funds for R&D. I think that GM realizes this and is trying to export some American made products to try to establish a global market for some of its domestic products. GM would find it easier to do this because of its size.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
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  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    I am on the mailing list for information on the MKS. Not really impressed with what I have received so far-lots of flash, but very little hard information. Last thing I receieved was two months ago. It was a "sample" complete with lights of how the door locks work. I could press the buttons and make them light up.
    I want a luxury car, not a toy. Looks like Asia or Europe is where I'll look.
  • gent70360gent70360 Member Posts: 33
    I totally agree that Ford had too much emphasis on trucks and SUV's. A few years ago, that was almost all I would see when I visited my Lincoln dealer. Except for the old town cars that were not advanced by Ford and the small but new Zephyr, it seemed like everything was this huge truck like vehicle. I don't know why so many people are driving these SUV's, except for a fashion statement. The minivan was perfectly suited for most of these families to haul kids around. I hate the way the big SUV's are so difficult to see around. You can forget about seeing through the glass portions when the glass is so often so darkly tinted. I actually had to get out of my town car recently to see around a parked SUV in order to see when I could safely pull away from a stop sign for a right turn. I hate the way these ever higher trucks and SUV's have bumpers that do not match up well against regular cars. Sooooo, I am actually a bit happy that most SUV owners are hurting with the high price of fuel and that the automakers are also hurting because they were counting on the segment so much while neglecting sedans. Hopefully, the MKS will be a little higher than my towncar.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    I always thought that SUV and trucks were basically trade vehicles. I can't say that the styling of these vehicles are very striking from a style point of view. They are all basically boxes with a different front or back end to differentiate one from another. Realistically ,how many people are going to go off roading with an suv.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    The MKS owners manual can be viewed on the Ford Fleet site. Not much new information but a few little tidbits about how the SST works with grade logic. Only a gearhead like me would care about that, I suppose......

    Question: Does Lincoln's Nav system have capability of voice commands to operate the climate control and radio? The owners manual implies that it does but says to review the Nav supplement - which I could not find.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I'm sure it controls the radio - even my 2003 Aviator did that with the old Nav system. Not sure about CC - it wouldn't surprise me since this is a brand new Nav system with lots of integration in addition to Sync and Sirius.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Thanks, Allen.

    Have you heard any more from your sources about final HP and torque ratings? It sounds like it will be tuned to take advantage of higher octane fuel. 275HP/276 torque on premium or 273/270 on regular. If those are final, a 10 HP boost and and 20 more Lb./ft sounds about right with the bump from 3.5 to 3.7.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No more details. I assume the press embargo will be over within a few days since they're about to start showing up at dealers. Then we should have all of the final specs.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    http://media.ford.com/

    More demand for this car than I expected. There are a few new details on this site.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I am at a loss regarding ordering a car sight unseen and no test drive. Some consumers have rocks in their heads!

    Regards,
    OW
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    So why haven't we seen published road tests yet? The Mazda6 won't be on sale until the end of summer, but all the car magazines have issued first drives of the 09 already. Haven't seen any road tests of the Flex either. What's up with that? Both are mere days from dealer lots.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If what you say is true, then the 8,600 orders are from real, real desperate folks...or the discounts are mind blowing before the initial cars hit the dealers!

    Regards,
    OW
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What makes you think it's being ordered sight unseen? It's been at all the major auto shows and in selected dealers for private receptions for months now.

    They're really just getting in line to potentially buy one. When it comes in they'll test drive it and if they don't like it the dealer will sell it to someone else. If they do like it then they'll get it that much quicker.

    Besides - I can't remember having a negative impression or walking away after test driving a car that I had already decided that I liked and wanted to buy.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    They're really just getting in line to potentially buy one. When it comes in they'll test drive it and if they don't like it the dealer will sell it to someone else. If they do like it then they'll get it that much quicker.

    That's different...I have been on tests drives of cars I liked and wanted but realized new opportunities after the drives were done. If you decide before you drive, the test drives is not as effective a tool, IMHO.

    As far as the MKS I saw at the NYIAS, I did not like it enough to pre-order it. That would be the CTS Coupe. That did make a mark on me that the sedan does not. The MKS, not really.

    When I test drove the 2003 LS, that was a good test drive...at $6k in savings, it was a great deal at the time (it was a leftover in March 2004 that I could not pass up).

    Regards,
    OW
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    I just read that Ford has abandoned its rear wheel drive Crown Vic replacement citing the cost of engineering the weight out of the new rear wheel drive platform. This means no rear wheel drive Lincoln , as Ford cannot afford a platform for a less expensive vehicle, it surely can't for a Lincoln. Instead, the next Mustang will be Ford's only rwd car and will get a cheaper version of the new Falcon platform produced by Ford of Australia. Ford could use forged aluminum for suspension parts to decrease weight as GM is doing for its new rwd premium vehicle platforms. But Ford is Ford.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Where did you read this? If this was true then it would be plastered all over BON and the other Ford enthusiast websites by now.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    http://media.ford.com/products/presskit_display.cfm?vehicle_id=1678&press_subsec- tion_id=421&make_id=93
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Hawkins Ford dealership. The bullitin that the dealers receive from Ford Motor Company. Also its in Motor Trend Magazine July issue.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Also its in Motor Trend Magazine July issue.

    That almost guarantees that it's wrong.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    We should see first drive reports very soon. Edmunds has a message saying they are in the process of driving one now. Here is my prediction for the general consensus of reviews:

    Very comfortable ride and better handling than expected for a large car.
    Exceptionally quiet.
    0-60 in 6.8 - 7.1 second range with FWD and 7.2 - 7.6 with AWD. Comments will be "not very quick but adequate for its intended buyer."
    Interior not up to competitor standards.
    Most of the tech goodies are optional at extra cost and not much really new.
    Overall look is better in person than in pictures but nothing really unique or note-worthy one way or another.
    The MKS will likely meet sales targets but not do much to change the brand perception.
    Fuel economy is not a strong point for the MKS.

    I look forward to the real reports. I hope my predictions are more negative than what is reported.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I disagree about the tech goodies - I think it packs more tech goodies at a lower price than the competition. And some - like the new integrated keypad - are unique. It definitely has more tech goodies than a Detroit vehicle has ever seen, and probably more than a lot of the European or Japanese competition.

    I think the only complaints will be lack of "throw you back in your seat" acceleration and a somewhat cheap looking center console and gauges.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Also have interest in a Ford and Lincoln - Mercury dealership. Owner of Ford dealership asked Ford product development rep during meeting when will the replacement for the Crown Vic be available, rep informed him that the project has been canceled because of cost of making the vehicle lighter to meet CAFE standards. The only rwd drive vehicle will be the next Mustang which probably won't have irs. The new Falcon platform, which the new Mustang will be based, will have the ability to be manufactured with or without irs. Dealerships are trying to have Ford produce a rwd platform with irs for Mustang. The reason why Ford found it easy to discontinue interceptor is because Gm will produce the new Impala with fwd instead of rwd. GM's premium vehicles will only be available with rwd.">
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I agree that the combination of tech goodies at this price point is a positive. I was just thinking about the perception by the cynical press and their reaction.

    After reading the Lincoln press release and the salesperson training material that I snatched from a dealer last week, it is clear that Lincoln thinks the interior is awesome. Maybe I have judged it too harshly based on the show car that I sat in. I am looking forward to a more robust examination and test-drive.

    I also think the 3.7 might feel pretty potent. It sounds like it has been tuned for low-end torque. Based on my experience with the Taurus, I think the 6F transmission is a real jewel and is geared perfectly for low and mid range acceleration.

    It is very surprising to me that there is only 1 mpg difference between the FWD and AWD versions. The FWD has a 3.16 axle ratio and the AWD is 3.46, IIRC. That should help make the AWD model handle the extra weight better but I would expect a more serious fuel economy penalty.
  • cowbellcowbell Member Posts: 125
    Jalopnik has an MKS review up:

    http://jalopnik.com/5012657/2009-lincoln-mks-first-drive

    It's not very informative, but it's a review. The only comment on the interior is about the cooled seats.

    The reviewer is not an automotive journalist. I think she's a political writer.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I wouldn't even call that a review. What a joke.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Just because they cancelled a RWD crown vic replacement (if they did that - I'll wait for confirmation) doesn't necessarily mean they've cancelled GRWD for Lincoln. A Lincoln flagship wouldn't be as affected by slightly higher platform costs.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    Remember those stats are from Ford’s preliminary test and not real world (street) stats. I was surprise at this also. I suspect 2-5 mile difference. Yet again, maybe Ford knows something that we do not know yet. ;)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    wouldn't even call that a review. What a joke.

    Whadda you mean? We learned that the chick prefers her butt to be hot and sweaty rather than cooled. Where else could we garner that valuable nugget of information?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    A little short on details (probably due to a press embargo for the monthly magazines), but it sounds like they like it.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4266900.html
  • cowbellcowbell Member Posts: 125
    Another review posted online from The "Truth" About Cars:

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009-lincoln-mks-review/

    If you're familiar with the site, I probably don't need to tell you what they think of it.

    Then again, I don't trust too many reviewers outside of Dan Neil.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Actually, the review from that site was more positive than I would have expected, considering their history. Of the 3 "reviews" so far, there is at least one consistent theme - the car is very quiet. That is a good thing.

    As noted in the "truth" review, I think the 3.7 will be fairly stout at lower speeds. There were a couple of gripes about the transmission's shift logic that may or may not be realistic. The Popular Mechanics review spoke of firmness in the ride with the 19 or 20" wheels - no big surprise there.

    The interior hasn't been ripped as much as I thought it might be. The "truth" remarks were pretty much in sync with my initial reaction to the interior.

    We should be seeing a lot more reviews soon. I look forward to what C & D has to say. I usually agree with their remarks but rarely agree with their conclusions.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They can't even acknowledge the good parts without taking pot shots along the way. What cars do those idiots like anyway?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I thought TTAC review was quite good: entertaining to read, and it pointed out both the strong points and weaknesses of the design. Overall, it is the best vehicle Lincoln has right now, but Lincoln is only a bottom-feeder luxury brand, and the MKS is not bold enough to change that any. Still, it will meet the needs of a lot of people and help slow down (but not stop) the brand's decline. The sales drop last month was only exceeded by the likes of Hummer--a brand which I doubt that GM will be able to give away, much less sell.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Lincoln slides to the bottom!

    DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. posted mixed results in the J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study.
    The Ford and Mercury brands each jumped two spots and both cracked the top eight, while Lincoln fell from No. 3 to No. 15, the last brand ranked above the industry average.
    Quality is a crucial part of Ford Motor's effort to rebuild its auto sales and image. The J.D. Power results -- except for the stumble at Lincoln -- could boost the automaker's promotional efforts.

    Regards,
    OW
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    I agree. I like the TTAC reviews, usually. I dont find them biased. There's a LOT of interest in this review, based on the number of comments already posted.

    All that said, the review is pretty much exactly what I said I would write before or even if I never drove one. It's what we all knew they were aiming for - get some blue hair buyers back after continental, mark 8 and LS went away. And HOPE that SOMETHING about the car attracts "younger" buyers. Altho I still think it's a nice looking car, I dont see that happening, unless ecoBoost does it next year. But I doubt even that will happen. Like the guy said, buy a loaded Sable and save a lot of money. ANd better do that soon, cause the Sable will probably go away in a year or two.

    Oh, still dont agree with him about the dash. I dont find much at all to like about it, but then again, I've just seen small pictures.
    One comment writer says the MKS screams "Stop-Gap measure". MHO is that every Lincoln since the LS - Aviator, mkz, mk lt, mkx, has screamed exactly that. They're (Ford) calling it the new Lincoln "flagship", but that's only by default. I dont think they or anyone else considers this a Lincln flagship.
    Finally, the LExus ES350 is certainly a far better car in almost every respect. Oh well. I wonder if the mags will even bother to compare them head to head. Certainly they at least shuld. Oh and 16/23? With gas at $5.00/gallon? NoWhere, Man.
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