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Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    None of the articles I read implied that development was just starting. It was just a PR announcement that Honeywell would be providing the turbos. Would you like to provide a link?
  • bevo1971bevo1971 Member Posts: 1
    I now have had my MKS for a little over two weeks and I love it. Still working on learning all the features with SYNC, Navigation, etc. I have the FWD with the Ultimate Package. Tuxedo Black exterior/Cashmere interior. I was also interested in the Dark Ink Blue and the Ice Blue. It just so happened that the Black came in the day I went to negotiate with the dealer. (It was a week early, still had the wrap on it!) I had the windows tinted before driving it off the lot.

    It took a lot to get me out of my previous car, a 1998 Mark VIII LSC with all the bells and whistles. However, just too many things were going out on it, and I was looking at more expense as new problems had arisen. I started to hang onto it, but went ahead and traded it in, (getting more than what Edmunds estimated) but it sure didn't last long. It sold within a few days. I still miss it.

    Back to the MKS... the ride is fine for me. My Mark had a sport ride, so this is much smoother. My parents have a Town Car, and the MKS is NOT as smooth as that, but it is comfortable and quiet. Gas mileage is still a work in progress. I was told that it would get better as it was broken in.

    It does run quietly, IMO, and has plenty of acceleration boost. Had I not needed a new car at this time, I may have held out for the more powerful engine, but I needed something now. I had even rented an Avalon for a vacation to test drive that ( I was considering getting one), but the seats were really uncomfortable for our long drives. It had wonderful acceleration and there were many positives with that car, including great gas mileage, however, we ended up buying extra padding for the front seats to withstand the uncomfortable ride. Plus the exterior styling left a lot to be desired.

    When I returned from my trip, I found out about the MKS.

    The MKS ride is comfortable, has plenty of acceleration power, and I love it! I had light gray pinstripes added and they really accented the line of the car well. I am considering getting chrome trim for the wheel wells and possibly to accent the tail lights. A local dealer rep told me information about that would be forthcoming this next week.

    The styling of this car is deceptive in that it looks so sporty and mid-sized, IMO. As one gets close to it, it becomes apparent that it is a nice sized sporty luxury car!

    I am very happy with it.
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    Every Domestic manufacturer cuts costs, many times in the interior due to legacy costs. You should know that going in. The Japanese and Germans do not bear such costs...
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    I try to be respectful of other peoples opinion. However, with all do respect to James R. Healey of Usa Today that wrote the article of the MKS "Misses the mark" He is smoking rocks !!! The comment he made about the styling of the MKS. Just, knocked me out of my chair. "Styling: Not a selling point. Kind of lumpy with gratuitous accents." When I read that comment I yelled to the top of my lungs WHAT !!!!!!!! I'm sorry but he is absolutely crazy ! The Lincoln MKS might be a great deal of things but "Lumpy with gratuitous accents" is not one of them. The Lincoln MKS is down right Gorgeous ! it is one of the best looking sedans to come out of Lincoln in years. If the Lincoln MKS is "Kind of lumpy with gratuitous accents" then the 2008 Mercedes-Benz C class is hideous. He shot himself in the foot with that comment. In my opinion, he is being a bit of a D**k by being impossibly critical of the MKS. Throughout the entire article, Healey seems reasonably impressed with everything about the MKS, but the handling. Then his final comment "Overall: Just OK." further proves my point that he is being a D**K. Sorry scottphillip no points for this source. And I take Healeys review of the MKS for a grain of salt.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I was a bit surprised by Healey's comments, too, but there are now a large number of reviews available and while some are very positive and a few are negative, the overall tone has been better than I expected.

    I still have the 1999 edition of USA today where Healey reviewed the Lincoln LS. He absolutely gushed about it - thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I had bought mine just before I read his review and I rather enjoyed his confirmation that I made a wise choice.

    I don't pay much attention to other people's opinion of body styling. Opinions are like derrieres - everybody has one.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    It is the best looking Lincoln in years, but they did have to base it on the Taurus platform. That meant it is taller than most cars, and has long overhangs on a relatively short wheelbase. To some eyes, that makes it lumpier than a lower car with a better balanced wheelbase (e.g. Malibu, 2009 Mazda6). Had they been able to start with a clean sheet, it could have been far sleeker and more of a looker than it is. But as it is, they did a great job excising some of the Taurus dumpiness.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I agree. The Flex, which is on essentially the same platform, has a 118 inch wheelbase and an overall length of 202 inches. The MKS has a 112.9 wheelbase and an overall length of 204 inches.

    While totally different animals, the Flex really has better proportions with shorter overhangs. I think the MKS would have looked better, rode better, and had more rear seat room if they had used the Flex wheelbase. I guess it's dimensions were locked in quite early and could not be changed.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Pretty sure the MKS was locked in before the Flex. We're lucky they were able to change the grille - otherwise it would have had the concept car grille which was boring. They also used the same new rear suspension on both the Flex and MKS (not sure which came first).
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    In the real world, the worker bees handle the Queen's affairs. Here, I gotta do all th work:

    http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&date=2008- 0730&id=8958340

    :shades:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    This is just the press release which indicates they've signed a production contract to produce them. Honeywell couldn't say this until the actual production contract is signed, but I guarantee you they've been working on this for awhile now and it won't have any effect on release dates.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    You might find this interesting:

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/fords-ecoboost-to-carry-700-premium.html
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    20% better than a V8. IOW, about the same as the MKS now.

    And pix of the mkt were there. Looks like they screwed that up, as gregg said. Looks like an aztek in the front, PTcruiser in the back and everything else from the side.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I don't know if it is accurate but the Left Lane article which was quoting Automotive News who was quoting somebody else reports a launch "early next year" and a price of $700 extra for the Ecoboost. That would be a heckuva deal.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=AUTO01

    Doesn't seem to be much interest in the MKS around here. No posts for 3 days! I think the Ecoboost MKS is going to stir up some interest and some sales when it is available in a few months. I want an MKS to replace my LS but I am waiting for this engine. There is nothing quite like massive low-end torque - something many small displacement DOHC engines lack and something the Ecoboost has plenty of.
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    "Doesn't seem to be much interest in the MKS around here." I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I can't speak for everybody on Edmunds. But, there is a ton of interest here. However, when you have people like nvbanker make statements like Honestly, the car was quieter and had less road noise than my Lexus, by quite a bit. There really isn't much to say. If that doesn't sell you I don't know what will. Granted it is one person's opinion. However, judging by the mass majority of the media's impression of the MKS it looks like Lincoln might have a hit on their hands for the first time in a long time.

    The only real question is how do people in the marketplace are going to react to it. Considering that we are in the "Dark Ages" of automotive sales for everybody. And I do mean everybody including Toyota. This might be the worst sales year for the NA auto industry in history. So, if you wanted to talk about something I guess you can argue wether or not the $37K+ MKS full size sedan is going to sell in this type of sales environment. Considering that Luxury brands are the first to get hit the middle of a very long and deep recession that the US is in. That's really the only there is to talk about as far as I'm concerned when it comes to the MKS.

    The FWD/RWD/AWD argument has been beaten to death. I'm already tired of the Genesis sedan. If Ford had this much sunshine blown up it's butt with CEO Alan Mullaly in court for several corporate crimes. While at the same time one of his products that looks like a shameless 5-7 year old Mercedes-Benz knock-off gets hailed as the next coming. Ford wouldn't be in trouble the way it is. Also, Ford would be #1 in the world by the end of the year. There, let all the anti-domestic fans come on to the forum and [non-permissible content removed] about that statement and tell us much Ford really sucks. Then tell us, how the Lincoln is a national embrassement because it's FWD MKS "Flag-Ship" sedan is outclassed by the RWD Genesis for the next 200 threads. And we can all try to defend the MKS and they won't believe us. And we can just go back-and-forth forever. There we have something to talk about with the MKS.

    PS
    Nothing to talk about :P
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    HUH?

    A "ton of interest"? - One or two guys are considering the car but only AFTER it gets a real engine.
    A "hit on their hands" because of media impression? Not always the way it works. You have read of folks reporting actual invited buyers to launch events negative impressions?
    A "very long and deep recession"? - Thank you Mr Economist. However the fact is we are NOT in a recession. What is true is that car buying has changed DRASTICALLY over the last year or two - basically since the demorats took over congress and began to 'fix' things. Gas more than doubled in that time. But we dont need any more oil. I'm digressing. Basically though it is a real bad time to introduce any car that doesn't scream 'I will save u money at the pump.'
    You're tired of the Genesis sedan? When did u buy one?
    Dont wanna argue about drive wheels? Then dont. Each has it's advantages. But fact remains if u want a sporty machine, u drive the rear wheels. Period. Or u make it light-weight and drive all 4 (Subaru). The rest is all pedestrian.
    I have no idea what the rest of your rant means nor why you think Ford has a butt and Mulally is blowing things up it and committing corporate crimes. Too much HBO for u I suspect.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Wow, do you have a bug up yer butt or somethin. Wrong side of the bed this morning? Every company has pros and cons.

    There is no doubt that Ford was run by morons to lose so much market share after almost being #1. The Genesis is a good car, whether or not you like it. The MKS is alright too. But it is not engineered to go up against the big boys. It's stopgap, good stopgap, but Ford knows it ain't world class. It's good enough for what it is and that is good enough for now. However, it will be lucky to sell as many as the LS did its first year. (And the LS garnered lots of good press.)

    I'd buy the MKS over the Lexus ES350. But up against the Genesis, things change. The Genesis may be a Hyundai, but Lincoln is not a prestige brand again yet. It is a hodgepodge. The Genesis offers quiet too, but also a V8 if you want it,and RWD whether or not you do. It sits better on its wheels than the MKS does.

    I don't care where a car comes from. Well, ok, if it is American and good, that is a bonus. But I sure won't knock something just because it is American.. And remember, not very long ago, all Hyundais were just cheap and most were junk.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    In this area there are huge interest in the MKS. Many of the dealers exhaust their inventory in 10-15 days. Granted there has not been much of an inventory (between 12-22 cars max). I myself am getting a little impatient with my order. I submitted mine on the 29th of February. Yes I know they did not start selling them till June and with the options I wanted (20 inch wheels), do not become available till next month (even though I am seeing them on a couple of models at one dealership already). So I figured that I should get mine by the end of October. By that time, I might as well let them keep it and wait for the ecoboost engine, even though I am not that thrilled about it. :shades:
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    The only thing that matters is if the car sells at or above Fords projections and if they can meet those projections without taking 6,000 off MSRP just to move one which will mean they are capturing Lexus buyers and not down buyers. At some point you need your consumers to buy your luxury car because the perception is that is it as good as Lexus/Infiniti/BMW et al. Not because "Hey I got an MKS with navigation for $5,000 less than an ES 350 without it what a deal!"

    It's called cheapening the brand and in no business is the brand name more important than the automobile business. Lincoln is going to have to be strong and resist the temptation where a buyer walks in expecting $3,500 off MSRP because it's a domestic marque. When you get into the luxury segment where the snob appeal counts it gets even more important. When the MKS can stand on it's own merits when buyers buy them because they want to be seen in one and want it to be see in their driveway then Lincoln is headed back to glory. Shallow? Maybe. Reality? Yes. If all the buyers are people who would have bought an Avalon but got a great deal on an MKS then the car misses the point.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    You do make a great point plus throw in the elements of timing due to an economic situation and things can get pretty serious if Ford can make the goal (40,000 annually) or not. Right now with approx 10-15 thousand already sold, they may be on track for first 365 days from launch date. I believe the true test will be once the hype of the new vehicle wears down and the introduction of the eco-boost engine for those speed demons who want to take off like in the commercial. To keep the pressure on the competition, I have heard rumors that there will be addition features, produces or some type of service every 6-8 months with the Lincolns. I have heard of a sporty version coming with paddle shift coming sometime next year as well.

    As far as the eco-boost engine is concern, I have reservations. I understand what it can do, but I am not in the need of that type of power. I wonder about the extra work this engine will be doing. Will the parts last as long as on non-eco-boost engines? Will the oil change be approx the same time frame as a regular engine or more frequent? Due to the enormous pressure will this eco-boost engine require regular oil, a special type of oil, or can only use synthetic oil for proper lubrication. History has shown with different products comes different requirements and needs that in most cases may save in one area only to cost more in another.

    I believe dealers play a huge part in this and their customer satisfaction is a lot to be desired. I suspect that in time it may be the beginning of the end of dealerships as we know it. I would not be surprise if there would be a move for manufacturers to sell directly to consumers with only the best of the best dealers surviving and providing the service required.

    I believe some dealers miss many opportunities to enhance the produce. You can have one of the best computers in the world, but without the proper support, it can become a huge paperweight. There are many tools (beyond the warranty) that could be used to enhance the produce to make the customer not only happy of the way the vehicle is performing, but the support involved from the day the first inquiry was made.

    With the announcement of the MKT into production, the product line seems to be on point. Buying a vehicle should be a pleasant experience with a good communication flow not only to answer questions, but to announce new product and features for the vehicle purchased. Only time will tell of the Lincolns, so lets wait and see.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    10 to 15,000 MKS already sold??? link to source for THAT please.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Pretty well put, and pretty much right, pmerk.
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    No one, except the auto magazines/websites and people seriously into cars and engineering care what platform the MKS is derived from or the fact that it doesn't offer a manual gearbox. No one cares that an ES 350 is a Camry, Infiniti M35 is a Maxima and an Acura TSX is an Accord. All people care about is that they are well built, reliable cars with a nameplate on them they respect and the level of luxury they expect at the pricepoint. This is who the MKS has to attract. BMW/Mercedes/Audi buyers are out of reach.

    I beleive, and this is my personal opinion, that the buyers of the Japanese luxury cars are the ones who will be much more likley to give the MKS a second look then the German luxury car buyer. Japan has only been in the luxury game for 20 years. Cadillac has made inroads with the excellent CTS.

    I have sat in the MKS but have not test driven yet. I've sat in and driven the ES 350 and the Infiniti M35x. These are fine cars but my initial impression is that there is no reason the MKS can't win some of the buyers over.
  • ak103ak103 Member Posts: 11
    Well,I have one of the above German makes (06 model) and considering the MKS. Drove an AWD model and was impressed. To me its also a bit different that going with one of the usual suspects in that $ range that I see a ton of on a daily basis. The MKS might get to that point as well, but for the time being I don't think they'll be everywhere. But I understand where you're coming from, especially BMW drivers. For the fact they have a distinct driving feel exclusive to the brand.

    I'm just not one of those snobs who will only consider a German car, I've had domestic, Japanese, and German makes. All have had their positives and negatives.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    "No one cares that an ES 350 is a Camry, Infiniti M35 is a Maxima and an Acura TSX is an Accord. "

    Well, that could be because you're wrong. The TSX is not an Accord and the M35 most certainly is not a Maxima. M35 is RWD and has a 5 speed automatic. The Maxima is FWD and uses a CVT. Infiniti/Nissan is the shining example of how NOT to do 'badge engineering' but rather to offer customers real choice. And one quickly notices that their up-market, sporty machines (M35/45, G37, FX) are RWD while their cheaper, more 'pedestrian' offerings (Altima, Maxima, Murano) are FWD. All that said, the 2009 Maxima is the best looking of the bunch, IMHO. And the MKS is probably better compared against it than the M35, which is a stunning piece of engineering to look at or drive. (M45 even more so.)

    I've no clue why u think you know who will choose an MKS - owners of Japanese or German vehicles. But all your other arguments are true and have been for a decade or two. And Lincoln is no closer now to acquiring the needed cachet for the brand than they were 20 years ago. In point of fact, they are probably farther from that goal now. And personally, I dont think they care. No direction. No comprehensive product line. Just badge-engineered Fords. That's it. And believe me, most people KNOW that. The only time Lincoln strayed from this formula was (you guys knew this was coming right?) ... the LS. The car that was supposed to begin finally to build the cachet. The car to compete with Beemers instead of Oldsmobiles and Nissans. And it did. The LS was a first class effort and needed to be built on to continue the building of the name. Instead, they dropped it summarily without ever really doing anything to improve it save adding a few horses over the course of 6 years. They replaced it with ... nothing. Unless you consider the Zephyr it's replacement, which is silly. Now they have intro'd their new 'flagship', the MKS, which is back-to-basics clone of a Ford. I will say that it's a better attempt at differentiating than the usual effort. It will fool some people. Will anyone trade an ES-350 or a 5-Series for one? A few probably will. If the MKS isnt reliable though, that'll be the last time those folks move to Lincoln. That's the other huge part of the problem.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The Town Car used its own architecture until 1998. Up to that time, it was never just a rebodied Ford. The Mark series was arguably a Lincoln that upgraded the corresponding Ford (Thunderbird). That happened as well with the LS and T-bird. Lincoln will need to get back to sharing architecture down with a "better" Ford, rather than the current other way around, before they will see the public perception as "dressed up Fords" change.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/luxury_sedans/2009_li- ncoln_mks_awd_road_test
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    Sorry Jeyhoe, It was an estimation on my part there. I figured with the announcement of 8000 orders back in Jun, that they would have sold (or have on order) at least 2000 more nationwide, hence the range. That's all.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/02/lincolns-books-8-600-preorders-for-mks/
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    This is one of the first full published road tests by the enthusiast press.

    The acceleration was about what I expected for the loaded AWD model. 0 - 60 in 7.5 is adequate but not as quick as the competition. I was very surprised at the noise level though. They report 72 decibels at 70 MPH. That is much louder than I expected for a car that has been reported as very quiet. I wonder if the 20" wheel/tire combination is the culprit. They mentioned quirky steering, too, and blamed the tires.

    Overall, this is a pretty positive review - probably better than I expected from C & D.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I thought it was a well-balanced review as well. No unnecessary potshots, and praise where it was deserved.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    gregg;

    Town car was not built on panther til 1998? Really? Then they switched to the arch that the crown vic was using? Seems strange to me.

    The Mark was an upgrade from T-bird/Cougar, sure. Air shocks and bigger engine. Still, badge engineered. I'd give to 90s Mark say a 5 out of 10 for badge eng. I'd give the mks a 7.

    I think you know that the LS and the latest T-Bird share almost no relation to any Ford. The only exception being the V6 in the LS.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    No need to be sorry. A pre-order however does not equal a sale. You are free to preorder a car and then just not take delivery. I learned that when I decided I wanted to order an LS with manual transmission. I couldn't even find a dealer that would order the car for me, they being afraid that I would walk and they'd be stuck with a stick-shift Lincoln. And nobody wants a stick shift Lincoln right? (Seems a fair amount of folks want stick-shift CTS though?) I actually had to get the VP of Lincoln marketing to call a dealer and persuade them to order the car for me.
    I haven't seen the usual Ford sales chart for July. Does anyone have a link to it? That would answer the question.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Only 7 out of 10?

    What, exactly, is "badge engineered" other than the gauge cluster? Even the doors and greenhouse are different.

    I think you're confusing badge engineering with platform sharing again.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Gettin a little nit-picky are we? :D If u look in wikipedia and accept their definitions, platform engineering is when you make 2 different *kinds* of vehicles from the same basic platform. Eg a sedan and a CUV. Whereas badge engineering invlolves say 2 sedans made to look somewhat different and possibly having different engines or other hardware. ala Fusion/Milan/MKZ. I'd say the MKS fits with the latter definition rather than the former.

    Not having 'driven a ford lately', what does the MKS share it's guage cluster with?

    It'll be an 8 out of 10 when ecoBoost arrives on the mks and not on the montego or taurus.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    bruce-
    Thanks for the ptr to that C&D review. Interesting stuff, particularly the admission that some of their reviewers would NEVER rate the Lincoln above ANY BMW! (Even the 1-series?) Suspicions confirmed?
    It was all in all a pretty favorable review. I cant help myself to remind that when the LS came out, it's initial reviews were extremely favorable - from 'darn near a beemer' to 'best American sedan ever' to Car of the Year. Those are 3 descriptions that will never be applied to the mks. But I digress (as usual).
    I did find a couple of things confusing - like how they say the MKR has an 'unforgettable face' and then in the Lows for the mks they say 'being seen behind that grille.' Pretty inane remark if u ask me. There are plenty of ugly mutha grilles out there, and this aint one of them IMHO. I like it. I like the looks of the mks, as Ive said before. And they loved the interior. I definitely need to sit in (and drive one) cause it just doesnt look that great to me n pictures. Must be a lot better in person.
    The power and handling described are about what I'd expect - no letters home. Interesting that they never mentioned the upcoming ecoBoost. They do say they plan a test and that the E-class will be one of the competitors. That'll be quite interesting. For the Lincoln to finish above last in a test with the E-class, 5 or 7 series, Infiniti M, ES-350 would be quite a feat, especially since it stickers a good $7000 below any of them.
    Lastly, WHY OH WHY do designers continue to do inanities like the "mail-slot" trunk opening??? As they said, what good is a big trunk if you cant even get a decent sized cooler in it. And rear seats that don't fold down? So last-millenium.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Sure, the Panther architecture was an integral part of the Town Car from 1980 on. Prior to that, Lincoln Continentals and Town Cars had their own chassis. However, the Town Car through 1997 avoided skirting with badge engineering by having a much more modified Panther base than it did from 1998 on. For example, the 1990-97 had much more interior width than a Crown Vic. Greenhouses, windshields and tumblehome were a completely different design. With the 1998 update, interior width shrank to CV size, and the CV style side tumblehome was adopted. Though the 1998 style change was a move forward stylistically, moving the whole car closer to a Crown Vic (with different body panels and rear roofline) was not.

    I also still think that the Marks and T-Birds sharing a chassis did not degrade Lincoln, as the T-bird was always the "step-up" Ford. The 89 - 97 T-bird may have had a lousy engine, but look at what the rest of the Ford line-up offered. Ford doesn't any longer offer a luxury-oriented car like the T-bird, so starting with a plebeian Ford and changing the front clip, rear styling and interior really didn't cut it. At least the Taurus to Continental conversions went to the length of giving the Continental a unique greenhouse and wheelbase, as well as the requisite front and rear styling change and engine upgrade. The Lincoln Mark VII and Mark VIII did not share one body panel with the corresponding T-bird, and they each exuded IMHO a different presence.

    Sort of like the current Taurus and MKS do. They should have given the MKS a couple more inches of wheelbase over the Taurus, and maybe then they would not have had to give the MKS less room in the rear (as they apparently had to do in order to reduce some of the lumpiness/dowdiness of the Taurus shape). Not to mention it would have looked better and less tippy with a bit more wheelbase.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I guess you and I differ on what constitutes badge engineering v. platform sharing. I see things b-e like Fusion-Milan, Cobalt-G5, Aveo-G3, Crown Vic-Grand Marquis, Explorer-Mountaineer, etc., where it is the same body with some minor front clip and other trim differences...where it would be pretty easy for a body shop to make one into another by changing that trim. Ina another instance let me use a GM example, Grand Prix/Impala/Lacrosse (or Lucerne/DTS) were not badge-engineered jobs, because they went to the trouble of modifying basically everything you could touch to the point that no one would mistaken one for the other at any angle.

    Fusion-MKZ was dangerously close to badge-engineering in a way that, say, Accord and Acura TL were not. Taurus to MKS is not a badge engineered job. It is another instance of platform sharing, where two different sedans are produced from the same platform (rather than a sedan and a CUV in another case). Make sense?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I think the Fusion, MKZ comparison is a little bit more than just badge engineering, but I agree with you on all the rest of your comparisons and points.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    WTF is a "tumblehome"?

    MarkVIII was a great car (I owned one) But even a casual observer could see it was based on the T-Bird. Dunno what engine the Bird had then. The Mark had 4.6L making 270hp standard. Thing flew and got 28mpg on hiway.

    If they had given the mks another 2 or 3 inches, perhaps the trunk opening could have actually been usable. I wonder how many sales they'll lose over that? My guess is a lot of people will be turned off by that trunk. BTW, does anyone know if it has ITH?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's exactly what I was trying to say. Badge engineering means just slapping a new badge on something and changing the name.

    Fusion/Milan, Ranger/B-series, Escape/Mariner/Tribute, Taurus/Sable are all badge engineered. Minor cosmetic differences only.

    Fulan/MKZ - still a rebadge but not as bad - better engine, unique interior plus a few unique features.

    Taurus/MKS - not a rebadge at all. Every exterior panel is different, different suspension, engine, interior, etc. I assume the drivetrain is the same other than the engine plus other under the hood bits and pieces, but nothing you can see, touch or feel is shared other than a couple of switches maybe. TONS of features on the MKS but not the Taurus.

    Note I said platform sharing, not platform engineering. What Ford did here was start with the Taurus platform and then heavily modify it.

    Geor.....err.....Jeyhoe's problem is not that the platform is shared - it's that the shared platform is FWD. I'm sure if Ford had a capable GRWD platform underpinning both the Taurus and MKS that was performance capable with the same level of differentiation then it would be just fine and dandy.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    No not really. I'll stick with the Wiki on this one. Taurus/MKS is just a much better job of badge-engineering than one usually sees. Platform-sharing example is Taurus/Edge. (Unless, and pardon my confusion, the Edge is based on the last-gen Mazda 6 and not the last-gen Volvo S80 in which case the P-E is Fusion/Edge).

    Fusion/Milan is b-e to the max (2 or 3 out of 10), while Fusion/MKZ is a little better (4 or 5 max out of 10). All one man's HO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    OTOH if they'd given it the same trunk as the Taurus you'd be screaming that it was "badge engineered". So the trunk opening isn't as huge as it could be - what, exactly, won't fit?

    Not sure about the ITHs - they never bothered me anyway. Then again the prop rod under the hood of my Fusion doesn't bother me, either. Simple, cheap and effective.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Al ... errr ... akirby: What does the mks share it's guage cluster with???

    I dont have a problem (at least that's visible here). I'm just saying it's a rebadged Ford. I dont care that the body panels are different. It's a Taurus in disguise, just the same as the Sable is, only better. It's a nice disguise and it will fool some people. It's almost exactly the same as the current Joan Rivers is just a rebadged version of the Joan Rivers of the 80s. Take out the new body panels and there's Joan. The one that can still smile.

    And, you're wrong again, grasshopper. Just look at my previous message about 90's T-Bird vs Mark VIII - Both RWD and both just badge-engineered.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Wiki didn't say platform sharing HAD to be a different type of vehicle, only that it was an example. And how do we know YOU didn't write the wiki entry?? :P
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    I'm already saying its badge engineered. What are u talking about? See the C&D review - a 40 gallon cooler for one thing wont fit. See ANY review for complaints about the size of the trunk opening.

    What shares the guage cluster? I want more ammo! :P
  • docrwdocrw Member Posts: 94
    Not that this is really relevant to the general conversation, but just for accuracy's sake the TSX is the same car as the Accord sold in Europe. The European Accord is smaller than the US version and much sportier.

    As far as the rest of your Lincoln-oriented comments, no argument here. The MKS is a small step towards getting Lincoln back to respectability, not excellence, just respectability. If they follow through with the RWD-based MKR that will be their shot at excellence. What they need is for the MKS and MKT to establish a beach head in the entry/mid luxury segment and then keep moving upmarket with the MKR. That's why they need the MKS to be solid and flawless-not spectacular. It is a placeholder for them.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ok, so the Stype and LS were also badge engineering, right?

    BTW - the MKS doesn't share the Taurus' greenhouse, so even if you stripped all the sheetmetal they're still different.

    So if Ford and Lincoln both need a full sized sedan, what is it you expect them to do, platform wise?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not that I like giving you ammo, but I thought it was the same basic gauge cluster as the Taurus/Sable and very similar to the current Fusion. But I could be wrong.

    I don't think a 40 gallon cooler would fit in anybody's trunk........
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    WTF is a "tumblehome"?
    Probably by now an outmoded expression for the angle and curve of the sideglass/greenhouse into the shoulders/lower doors.

    The greater the curve and "fuselage" look, the more it tends to cut into the usable interior width. With the 1990 TC redesign, the side glass was more upright and the windshield wider than on the the 1998. Interestingly, the more slab-sided and formal looking 1990-97 TC was 2" more narrow than the 1998 TC, but still offered almost 2 MORE inches of shoulder room than the wider 98+.

    I am more than a casual observer of cars, but to my eye, the Mark VIII and T-bird shared little visually, other than general proportions. The 1972 to 1976 Mark/T-birds looked more alike to me, even though the Mark was the real looker among those behemoths.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    It bugged me every time I checked the oil or put in windshield washer fluid that my old Millenia--otherwise well equipped--forced me to go through that extra threading step every time I opened the hood, when my little VW or Audi did not.
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