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Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They had to do it for safety reasons. There is a new head restraint regulation that was supposed to go into effect this month that require either this design or expensive electronically controlled headrests. You should see similar designs from other mfrs.

    It's also in the Edge, Flex, Mustang, etc. Just put the seat back a little further and it's fine. I've driven 8 hours to Florida and then back again with no problems.

    Some have removed the headrests and turned them backwards although that eliminates the safety benefit.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Ditto. I rented an Edge about a year ago for a family trip. The headrests bothered me at first but within 50 miles I got used to them and actually liked the positioning very much. I thought they provided a feeling of security. The seat backs and headrests of the MKS are it's most comfortable feature, IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Remember, they're head restraints not headrests.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    NOW you tell me. So, I guess this means that I should not be taking a nap while driving. ;)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not without the autopilot option.....
  • jzalkinjzalkin Member Posts: 56
    Lincoln has a huge problem competing for luxury $$. With comments like "I cannot believe that Ford would release a car" it is clear that it won't sell well in the long run. How many people complain about a Lexus "I cannot believe that Toyota would..." People may criticize Lexus, Acura, etc, but they perceive them as their own brand and a value comes from that. Lincoln has not done enough to alter that perception of the brand and the MKS will suffer as a result.

    I have been reading this forum since I have a Lexus IS and my family is expanding which means my next car has to be larger. Starting to think it may be smart to pick up a 1-2 year old used MKS (when it gets to that point) as it may be a great value for what you get at a price that will be significantly lower than the luxury competition.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Don't confuse the naysayers with potential buyers. There a lot of people who don't like Lincoln or are upset because Lincoln didn't build the car they wanted. Most would not seriously consider a MKS anyway. The LS was the best Lincoln sports sedan ever and the MKS is the best luxury sedan they've ever made. Neither were perfect but it's a big step in the right direction.
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    Don't confuse the naysayers with potential buyers. There a lot of people who don't like Lincoln or are upset because Lincoln didn't build the car they wanted. Most would not seriously consider a MKS anyway. The LS was the best Lincoln sports sedan ever and the MKS is the best luxury sedan they've ever made. Neither were perfect but it's a big step in the right direction

    Naysayer's? I own a Milan and I am a fan of the MKS. I just think the headrests are ridiculous in the fact that thye were smushing up against my head and I hope there is something that can be done about it.

    In 1977 when the Yankee's were courting Reggie Jackson as a free agent George Steinbrenner picked him up from the hotel in his Lincoln. Reggie said to him and I am paraphrasing here: "Don't you know a Lincoln ain't nothing but a Ford with a different badge on it". That was the perception of a rich man 30 years ago and I wonder if it has gotten any better.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I wasn't necessarily talking about you, but if the shoe fits.....

    A lot of people didn't like seat belts back in the 70's either. Like others have said once you get used to them they're not bad at all, just different.

    I will agree that it would have been nice to have active head restraints rather than passive but I can understand Ford not having the resources to engineer them right now.

    How are other mfrs coping with the new head restraint requirements? Maybe Ford is being more aggressive (more protection)?
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    My point is you want to like a car and then you cannot get comfortable in it because of a headrest?? Something is wrong there.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Complain to the NHTSA - it's their rule, not Ford's.

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.f2217bee37- - fb302f6d7c121046108a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a0c_ws_M- - X&javax.portlet.prp_1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a0c_viewID=detail_view&itemID=4- - 96bbe634cea0010VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&pressReleaseYearSelect=2004
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Hey, Teach! I agree with you on the stereos - I was able to feel more bass in the Ford system, but can hear more notes in the Mark Levinson. Both are excellent however, and I would stack them up against Harmon Kardon, Bose, JBL or Nakamichi as very good systems.

    As to the rear end looks, I don't mind it. I think it's attractive, in a Saturn Ion or Hyundai Elantra sort of way....and that's my concern. I'm wondering too, what the rear end of a Lincoln is supposed to look like now, the MKZ or the MKS? Seems there is no common theme definable yet. It's confusing.....
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Reggie was wrong. The Lincoln sedan was about 233 inches long and had a 460 cubic inch engine. I believe that the Ford LTD was about 220 inches long and had a 350 ci engine. also the Continental/ Towncar had a much better ride for those that put a premium on wallowing down the interstate. The T-Bird before 1977 was based on the Mark chassis . And the Mark was longer than the T-Bird by about 5 inches at 230 inches.
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    You missed the point. it's his perception that mattered about Lincoln.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    That's the point. Ford designed the MKS with the potential customer as a second thought. Instead of responding to the market, Ford hopes to create a market for the product. That's very difficult to accomplish. Is it a sport sedan or a luxury cruiser? It's hard to market it as both.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Lincoln has never positioned the MKS as a sports sedan AFAIK - it's always been more about luxury and in that area it's very competitive.

    This is yet another case where you think Lincoln should build the car you want and if they don't then it's a failure.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The MKR is supposed to define the future Lincoln styling direction. The rear of the MKS was already done when the MKR came out - only the grille made it to the production MKS. Not sure about the MKZ - could be the same story. The MKT would be the first production model with ample lead time to get the MKR styling right but it's not a sedan so that may not help much.
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    they should give the 2010 MKS a 3.7 liter with 310-320 hp with the same gas mileage and also equip that engine in the MKT. The ecoboost should produce around 400 hp. This would at least allow the MKS to have some sort of bragging rights. The 2010 non ecoboost model should also have a option for a more sporty suspension setup as well as a wood option for interior. This with a larger truck opening and no price increase should make the MKS more justifiable for its price and more competitive then it currently is
    http://www.shopsar.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=SD2965%2DDU113
  • kenb757kenb757 Member Posts: 149
    "There a lot of people who don't like Lincoln or are upset because Lincoln didn't build the car they wanted. Most would not seriously consider a MKS anyway."

    I was considering the MKS until I drove it. You're right, I am upset that Lincoln didn't build the car that Lincoln should have built (ride and refinement issues); other than those issues, it is a very nice car. But I'm not that upset, as a Lexus dealer will be more than happy to take my money. I suspect that most of the people that want to turn Lincoln into a division of BMW can't afford a Lincoln anyway, much less a BMW. So I suggest Lincoln heed the desires of past buyers and serious potential buyers of their brand, and not those of some boy racer wannabes. Should I want a BMW, I'll buy a BMW.
  • gent70360gent70360 Member Posts: 33
    I can't agree more with kenb757. The MKZ should have been made into a sport version.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The D3 Chassis and probably the transmission can't handle 400 hp. They need the new GRWD platform for that.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Most of those that can afford a Lincoln can't afford a Cadillac let alone a bimmer that is why Buick is Lincoln's main competition. Don't underestimate what others can afford.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Really, then why did Ford release a sales promo comparing the car to the STS, CTS, Infiniti,and Lexus Sedans. Many magazine articles quote Ford spokespeople as mentioning the above cars as the MKS' competition. In fact, at the Chicago Auto show the Ford mkt dept hoped that the MKS would capture sales from those that would consider an STS or CTS and yes Infiniti and Lexus. In your opinion what classification is the MKS in? If you believe that these autos are not the MKS' competition, I agree. If you believe that the TC and similar autos are not the MKS' competition, I agree also. But what is? And what is wrong with making a product that satisfies customer demand. That's probably partly why Ford is in such financial hardship. It forgot about the customers wishes. Instead of the customer always being right , Ford is. This car neither satisfies those that want a sport sedan or a Towncar ride. I could understand it if was designed to ride as a TC .Instead it suppose to be a little bit sport sedan and a little bit boulevard cruiser. The car doesn't appeal to the TC crowd that well because the traditional TC owner wants to glide down the interstate on a pillow and the MKS' ride is too harsh for that.When the average TC owner test drives the car just about all complain about the car's ride. One told my sales women that the ride bothered his "piles." Thus, probably because of similar complaints, Lincoln's continuation of the TC for the near future. And as far as the sport sedan crowd, those that have the funds to drive other than Buicks, the MKS doesn't seem too popular with those that put a premium on performance . For one thing it is to heavy and too slow. The standard fwd version still suffers from torque steer. Both awd and fwd versions understeer heavily when making tight turns at normal HWY speeds. The car can be made to lose its composure if driven really hard by using the tried method of steering the car by slightly letting up the accelerator a bit and then applying more throttle through a tough manoeuvre.This manoeuvre produces drastic oversteer. Yes there has been those that drive Bimmers and Mercedes that have been in my showroom interested in purchasing the car, but that is until they have test driven test the car . All complain about the car's performance A Lincoln factory rep told the my sales team to put a special emphasize on the car's electronics and to secondarily push its performance. I don't think that the average TC owner is very interested in a lot of the car's electronic equipment. The sport sedan crowd thinks that the electronics are nice but not enough alone to purchase an MKS. This doesn't mean that there will be no MKS' sold to sport sedan or TC owners but enough to save Lincoln,only time will tell. I would like to know what is this car? Apparently, the car isn't the car that a lot of potential customers wanted Ford to build.
    .
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why is this so hard to understand? Ford cancelled the DEW98 program without a replacement (partly due to financials but mostly due to poor product planning). Fields and Mulally would love to be able to build a RWD sports sedan to go head to head with the imports but THEY DON'T HAVE THE PLATFORM to do it. They're trying to build one (GRWD) but that will take 2-3 years at least.

    The D3 is the best they could do under the circumstances, so the question is how well did they do with what they were given? I think pretty well.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    The Dew 98 platform The DEW 98 platform is outdated as is the D3, which the MKS is based. What about the C-XF platform by Jaguar? The platform was designed with Ford's funds. What will Ford do if it probably has to sell Volvo. It will do as Chrysler. As Chrysler maintains it old Mercedes platform, Ford will retain its old Volvo platform. So there is no reason why Ford couldn't keep the rights of the Jag chassis eventhough it sold Jag. The reason Ford discontinued the Dew 98 and didn't make use of the new Jag chassis is cost of the vehicle. It would have to be priced as high as a loaded Cadillac STS .Not good if Buick is the competition. The rwd platfom will not be ready until 2015;otherwise its all but dead. There is no getting around that.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    The MKZ is a front wheel drive car. Front wheel drive is not very conducive to produce the type of handling qualities that are expected in a sport sedan. For that the car would have to require rear wheel drive with a modern suspension whose front and rear components are manufactured from aluminum and titanium to diminish weight.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Jag platform, just like dew98, is expensive. It can't use any of Ford's corporate V8s - they don't fit, which requires expensive engines no larger than 4.2L which are also owned by Jag. Nothing would be shared with other Ford brands.

    Where did you get 2015 for GRWD? I think it's 2012 worst case and more likely 3 years (2011).

    The MKS cost far less than the LS - 90% less by some estimates due to platform sharing - and can therefore yield much needed profits at very low volumes.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The MKS cost far less than the LS - 90% less by some estimates due to platform sharing - and can therefore yield much needed profits at very low volumes. True enough, as far as that goes. However, Ford has huge debt, is leveraged to the hilt, and may now be seeking government loans, after already mortgaging the whole farm. Ford needs some very high volumes with profit in order to climb out of this mess. At this time, with investment houses and insurance firms going under, it makes little sense for the government to bail out a string of other firms that are no longer competitive. That Japanese firms can invest in plants and manufacturing right here in this country, while Ford, GM and Chrylser are on the ropes, is quite telling. I'm afraid these MKS-type efforts (more or less described as "the best we can do right now") aren't going to save much of anything. I hope I am wrong.
  • snagssnags Member Posts: 27
    The MKS has received some mixed reviews re: ride .I am considering this car along with the Genesis ,Maxima and new TL .

    Can anyone tell me what their experience was in test driving this car? Thank you
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Scroll back a few months - there are several first drive reports already posted.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I would urge you to try one for yourself. Different people have different preferences regarding ride - some prefer soft and cushy while others like firm and controlled. My guess is that you will find the ride quality quite comparable to the others that you mention.

    Most who have criticized the MKS ride were expecting it to be soft and cushy - like a Lincoln Town Car, Cadillac DTS, or Buick Lucerne. It is quite a bit firmer than any of those. It is also a lot firmer than the Taurus upon which it is based.

    Let us know what you think after you drive one.
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    I think that lincoln should give the MKS a 3.7 with a least 300 hp. I mean what was the purpose of boring out the 3.5 for it to only generate 10 more hp than the MKZ. I mean even the accord, camry, and altima have similar outputs. Even if its the "temporary flagship" it should have a a base engine that more powerful than its siblings especially since it weighs more too.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What is it about "lack of time and engineering resources to implement direct injection" did you fail to understand?
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    What part do you understand about a fully equipped $48,000 flagship car having almost the same power output as a accord (268 hp), and having less power than a maxima 273 to 290
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Well, the marketing segment that the car is aimed at are the Donny and Marie Osmond fans. That is why it is a little bit sport sedan and a little bit boulevardier. Like being a little bit country and a little bit rock "n" roll. Lincoln will probably have an MKS Donnie and Marie Osmond edition. I want Lincoln and Ford to know right now that if they do , they owe me some royalties for the idea.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Mercedes E350 - 268 hp, $53K. And it's a lot smaller. It's not a sport sedan. 300 would be better, but it's adequate for now until the EB version gets here.
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    First before anyone gets the wrong idea I am a Lincoln fanantic but its hard to be one right now when they keep having half thought out vehicles. Mercedes has the prestige that lincoln used to have and wants to get back to in the future. And i take it that you have never driven a E-Class because if you had thats it handling is like a lotus compared to the MKS. The E-Class is also being redesigned for 2010 and will have an new turbocharged V6. i also need to bring to your attention that the current E-Class is in the last year of its production and still produces nearly the same amount of power as the new MKS.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Didn't the LS share platforms and engines with Jag? Couldn't Lincoln have done the same? Oh I forgot the car would cost more than a Buick. On CNBC an auto-market analyst said that Ford is going to put all of their projects that have nothing to do with fuel economy on hold for at least an extra 2 -4 yrs. And depending on the price of fuel and regulations, they may abandon those projects. With Ford teetering on the verge of bankruptcy, I don't believe that it is too interested in producing a high performance Lincoln. Look for the 4 cylinder ecoboost to be introduced before the 6 cylinder version
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    i never said for them 2 build a high performance lincoln. Just build something thats near the top of the field. And another thing why does lincoln and ford for the fact think that comparing lincoln to buick is a good idea. I thought they built the MKS to further generate a lower aged customer base, comparing itself to buick would be doing just the opposite
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Yea, leave the domestic performance stuff to Cadillac. Let Cadillac's products gain all the glory. That has always been the way. Lets face it, Ford could never produce a Lincoln comparable to Cadillac and sometimes Chrysler in terms of performance. And sometimes Lincoln's quality would be sub-par to Cadillac and Chrysler as well.
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    Lincoln SHOULD be building cars that have performance but i know that they cant do that currently because they dont have a platform ready. What I was pointing out that although lincoln cant directly compete with caddy, Benz, BMW, Infinity, and Lexus right now the still shouldnt be saying that they are targeting Buick, who looked at as even more un-luxurious in most buyers eyes than Lincoln is. Just equip the MKS with a DI 3.7 with 300-310HP standard ( with the option of a more sport oriented suspension), give the 2010 MKZ a 3.7 without direct injection that produces 273 and 3.7 DI as an option. In about 6 months time that shouldnt be too much to ask for as the ecoboost WITH direct injection will be arriving so ford can then DI the 3.7's
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    In this now global financial crisis, Lincoln will not catch a break. Totally wrong time to be trying to get back into the luxury market. The dummies at Ford earlier this decade were just as ignorant of their real operations and how business works long-term as those at Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, AIG, Freddie, Fannie,, etc., etc. And they had no idea as well how far-reaching and devastating their more-guts-than-brains approach would be. Payment for their greed and short-sightedness is far from over. Lincoln's foray back into luxury with the MKS is pretty pathetic on the face of it. But what else could they do?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think pathetic is a little harsh. Yes, the platform is lacking but I applaud them for finally getting competitive luxury features and even leapfrogging the competition for a change. The only thing lacking in the interior is a new gauge cluster and some wood for the center stack.

    I also give them credit for the interior changes for the 2010 MKZ - pretty significant for a mid cycle refresh.

    But I agree that it will take them years to get out of the hole the company dug for them a few years ago when they were treated like red-headed stepchildren.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There is no way Ford is putting projects on hold for 2-4 years. I'm sure they are accelerating fuel economy related projects and delaying others due to limited resources but I don't think it's that drastic or that long.

    The 4 cylinder ecoboost is way behind the 3.5L. I think the best case is we see the I4 EB late next year following the 3.5L next spring/summer, if they can pull it up that far. Don't forget the 3.5L EB is not just for cars - the F150 will also be using it and that IS a fuel economy project.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    If I am not mistaken, I believe the wood package cover the center stack also as an option.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's what I was hoping, too, but it doesn't. At least not that I've seen anywhere. I don't understand why not - they could certainly recover the cost by making it an option.
  • fadetoblackiifadetoblackii Member Posts: 29
    Mercedes also has that prestige based on the past, not it's most recent cars. Frankly, a Lincoln has been a better buy quality wise than Mercedes has been over the past 5 years. That said, Mercedes is turning things around and getting back on the right track.

    Comparing Lincoln to Mercedes is apples to oranges though, because the Merc is a RWD sport sedan and the Lincoln is a FWD luxury sedan. That said, the MKS is still a base model IIRC. From what i understand a Twin Turbo version of the 3.7L is in the works that will put out 300+ hp. (I could be going off of old info that has since changed, but I remember hearing this somewhere.) The point that the other poster was trying to make is that a company can offer a high class sedan with less than 300 hp. Mercedes currently offers a base model E class with 268hp for $53k and Lincoln offers a base model MKS with 275hp for $39k.

    In a comparison that's more accurate, the Cadillac DTS has a 4.6L V8 that only puts out 275 horses as well and that car starts at $43k. Just throwing that out there.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I think pathetic is a little harsh. You are right, if you are interpreting that as a critique of the MKS. What I really meant is, here is a world-wide recession, a pulling in of cheap leases on luxury cars, and a generalized sales downturn. Meanwhile, other than the MKS (which still doesn't have the direct injection engine available), Lincoln's line-up is motley and not changing fast. The F150 clone is going away (and should), the Navigator is failing in the marketplace with no replacement in sight, the MKX is little more than an Edge with lipstick (and doesn't look a thing like any other Lincoln), the MKZ has to soldier on with a Fusion body for several more years, and the Town Car, which unfortunately still sets the image for Lincoln, is now deservedly fleet only. What's on the horizon? The MKT, which is not exactly what Lincoln needs right now, and will only appear in very watered down form after almost another year passes. All that is pathetic.

    Look at Cadillac with their much better/more integrated line-up. They still have major problems in making decent sales in this environment. Even so, they have still lots of new models coming (new CUV, CTS coupe, CTS wagon, new small RWD sedan, plus a planned DTS/STS replacement). How will Lincoln ever catch up? The resources aren't there, and present lineup cannot sustain them over the next several years. It's a tough place to be.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't disagree - it will be tough and it will take years to get the product line turned around. But I'm not sure I'd use Cadillac as the poster child. The SRX was a failure and is being replaced. I'm pretty sure they cancelled the new DTS/STS replacement. I like the CTS and variations but that and the Escalade(s) are really the only things they've done even remotely right.

    I'm not ready to throw in the towel on the MKT yet. I think those prototypes have padding under the camo and the production vehicle may still be very close to the concept car. It's also possible they'll have both a 3 row and 2 row model with the 2 row model using the concept rear design while the 3 row model has a more conventional rear to accomodate the extra seats.

    If it looks like a flex or navigator rear though I agree that's not good at all.
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    I agree with greeg vw, Caddy has a couple of planned products even if some are off the same platform they have new products planned. Lincoln only has the MKT as completion for the rwd platform has no specific finish date. Due to fuel prices and lack of money i understand with ford not having a proper rwd platform currently but they at least could try to make their existing and upcoming products (2010 MKZ, 2010 MKT) very competitive. Lets not forget that GM is also in a fiancial crisis but they are still planning new product for caddy because they know in todays car market you cant become placent. Future Lincolns need to have something that is going to put them at or near the top of the class. Since they say that the 3.7 is "lincoln exclusive", then make it truely lincoln exclusive and give it to all lincolns, let the fusion and milan have the 3.5 as options.

    2010 Mks(Standard 3.7 Direct Injection 310Hp, Sport suspension option, 3.5 ecoboost 360HP)

    2010 MKZ(Standard 3.7 273 Hp, Optional 3.7 D.I. 300-310HP, manumatic, standard traction control, updgrade suspension option)

    2010 MKT(Standard 3.7 D.I. 310 Hp, 3.5 ecoboost 360-370 Hp optional, more sporty suspension than flex)
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