Lincoln MKS

speculator · May 2009

I own a Ford dealership as well as a LM dealership. I can tell you that at least 35-36 k for a Ford sedan even an SHO is more than what the market segment that Ford runs in is willing to spend on this type of car. Remember the Mercury Marauder. By the way I have seen the car. The style is much better than what is offered on the present version. But still such a higher premium for a Ford Taurus performance sedan that doesn't have a long reputation as being a performance car is what will limit its sales. Otherwise, its not a Mustang that has a performance pedigree. Taurus doesn't have that panache. It's a name that is associated with a family sedan. Chrysler used the revived the 300 , Challenger and Charger nameplates to revive their performance sedans. All are names associated with performance. My Family has been in the auto business for over 60 years. I think that I know what is happening to the business. So before you start to rant about what I know which is more than what you know, think before writing

akirby · May 2009

You're missing 2 important facts:

1 - this Ford sedan has styling, performance and amenities unlike ANY previous Ford sedan. It runs circles around the Marauder in every category. And Ford quality is at an all-time high and competitive. Predicting sales based on previous Fords and previous Ford quality isn't valid in this case.

2 - the Taurus SHO has a cult following similar to the Mustang 5.0 crowd.

Forgot one - 3: just because something sells or doesn't sell in YOUR area doesn't mean it will be that way across the country.

I bet they sell every SHO they can make without big rebates.

[Deleted User] · May 2009

The best defense is a good offense?? :P

You may be right, but I do have another point of view on this one. Ford does have a track record of occasionally being able to successfully market more expensive models than their usual fleet. SHO also has cache, in spite of the fact that the first one's sales were severely limited by offering only a manual transmission, and then the second generation SHO offered ONLY an automatic with an expensive but still anemic V8.

The Marauder was a failure anyone could have seen coming. The idea was great, but putting the package on a very long-in-the-tooth Grand Marquis (which was never designed to be sporty), and adding only a 300 hp engine to that big and relatively heavy sedan, and buckets and a console that looked very cobbled together was stupid. Unlike the 2010 Taurus, this ersatz Marauder did not look much different from any police car or old lady's ride, did not go all that fast compared to other hot sedans, and really was overpriced for what it offered. At least someone woke up before they also issued to Marauder convertible concept. The idea of taking an old, out of style body and interior, and engineering it into a convertible (rather than working on a new model) was silly, and would have been a wasteful use of limited resources.

The SHO actually has me interested in looking at a big car again. You may be right, as I said, but I predict it will be a success, selling in the limited numbers Ford projects, to people who would not normally buy just any big Ford sedan.

speculator · May 2009

Since these are new vehicles , prove what their resale value will be in two years. What will I soon see? Right now Ford is barely hanging on. The only reason is because of incentives and dealer markdowns off list above what is customary for a normal economy. Don't forget that Ford really needs to unload Volvo in order to have more cash in reserve to meet obligations. I expect that if the economy doesn't turn around by November the Ford's new model year models will also be also be offered with incentives and deep dealer markdowns. All of these incentives and markdowns have an impact on resale value of these vehicles along with popularity. The MKS sold a total of 1178 models last month. Not very popular even with all of the incentives being offered. The sales for May could be less than 1000 units of the MKS. Chrysler dealers that are being liquidated are selling new inventory at 1 -2 year depreciation value. Right now a used 2 year old Chrysler is a very good bargain. The same could happen to Ford. Ford is only marginally better off than the other two. The G yesterday offered Ford the same deal it has given to GM and Chrysler if it doesn't have the funds to meet the 2016 cafe standards. Ford would be better of going into Ch 11 now while all are in the same circumstance. Ford got the short end of the stick with the new 2016 standards.

speculator · May 2009

Have you seen the resale value of a used Ford Taurus SHO? Know anyone who will pay a premium for a used SHO? Ford cancelled the SHO because of poor sales. It was never a great seller. The demand for the car wasn't there. Only a limited # of enthusiast purchased one. It never appealed to the traditional Taurus buyer. That's why it has a cult following. Cults tend to be small and selective. After all of the cult members purchase their SHO , how will Ford justify producing a 35-36k Taurus SHO that will never generate the number of sales required to keep it in existence for more than a year or two? What has changed in the market place that justifies this car's existence? If anything the introduction of this type of vehicle for Ford at this time is haphazard. I remember reading in all of the auto mags that the prior SHO was something above a standard Taurus. I am sure that the auto mags will write the same about this version. Will all this praise generate into sustainable sales? It didn't the first time. Chicago has the second or third highest # of Ford sales in the country. If any Ford doesn't sell in one of their largest markets than why produce it. The Taurus is a family sedan. That's it base. Stick with success.

marsha7 · May 2009

Not to take sides against you, akirby, (

), but with my limited knowledge, I would tend to agree with speculator...I don't know if s/he really is a dealer or not, but the Taurus name, for many years, implied family sedan...yeah, the SHO was higher performance, but did not stand out, IMO, like a Mustang GT or Camaro SS...

The new Taurus is nice...but to be a large seller it must sell at a popular price point, and the SHO probably needs to be a little higher in price...not to denigrate Ford, but the Ford brand does not convey luxury, just a (hopefully) reliable car...maybe the MKS can pull it off, but I think it was nvbanker who agreed with me awhile ago, that a one year old decked out MKS will probably sell for much less than a new Taurus, so one gets ecoboost and all that luxury for under $20,000.00

It is a rare Big 3 car that holds its value, and when the trade-ins come in, MKS will drop like Impalas and Crown Vics..."like a rock"...

akirby · May 2009

If I'm wrong I'll admit it. But this Taurus is so much better than any previous Taurus I don't see how you can even compare the two. This thing has better performance (except maybe in cornering) and better materials, styling and way more amenities than any Lincoln prior to the MKS. And with Ford cutting back on production volumes to match demand and the change in the public's perception of Ford overall, I just don't think you can compare this to anything in the past.

I predict Taurus sales will double what they are right now by the end of the year and SHOs will be selling with minimal discounts and rebates.

speculator · May 2009

I never wrote that the Taurus is a bad design. I just don't believe that a Ford should be at the price of a BMW. Albeit a small Bimmer.Actually the base of the 2010 Taurus SHO is 37,995 dollars . It's a Ford, not a Bimmer or Audi. Ford averaged about 10k SHO units sold per year between 89 and 99 when the last SHO was produced with the highest sales between 89 and 95 and the most of the sales between 89 and 99 had a manual transmission. The ten year average is not huge a compared to the average sale # of the base Taurus during these years. At this price the car is not going to be a high seller. In fact the price is near the MKS category. Remember the Volkswagen Phaeton. Priced too high for a Volkswagen The perception of VW is that it sells low to mid priced vehicles. The public perception of Ford is that it produces family sedans at a reasonable price. Heck , the Flex is priced too high. Anyway none of this will matter . The new cafe standards will probably doom these type of cars for the Ford division. The President of Volkswagen of America said on CNBC that the manufacturers will have to start planning now to meet the 2016 cafe standards. I tend to believe him. How will GM and Chrysler do that while in bankruptcy. Simple ,with G funds. Ford objected to the new standards mandated by the President fearing that it doesn't have the funds to accommodate the new standards that soon. The G offered Ford the same deal that it offered GM and Chrysler if it finds itself short on funds. It would be willing to put Ford into a prepackaged Ch11 as it is doing with Chrysler and soon to be GM and provide funds for fuel and enviormental standards. Ford has agreed with the offer. The Government is now in the auto business.

lilengineerboy · May 2009

Remember the Mercury Marauder.

You mean the grandma and grandpa Mercury with the Crown Vic's police pkg? I am not sure who the marketing genius behind that was, but an Impala SS it was not. Take an ancient chasis, add a moderately powerful engine (but not class leading in any area) and add police car suspension. When the Blues Brothers wanted the cop car it was because it was cheap.

As far as the SHO, the folks that were in their 30s and 40s in the late 80s and early 90s would be about the age for the SHO now. Its more sophisticated and more powerful. I also don't know how many Ford expects to sell. I am not super worried about it, I think it will be fine.

Also, what BMW can you get for 35k? A 3-series base with vinyl seats? Really?

akirby · May 2009

It's a Ford, not a Bimmer

That's correct. If it was a Bimmer it would cost $60K (550i) or $80K (750i), not $38K.

So you think Ford should have left out all the good stuff just so they could lower the price of the Taurus? Isn't that what got Ford into this mess to begin with? The Koreans have taken over the cheap end of the market. It's time to move Ford (and later Lincoln) upmarket and this is a great first step. Given the leaps in fuel economy and quality and vehicle design and features I think it will work. You disagree. Fine.

speculator · May 2009

But still a BMW. Ford doesn't have that cache' Also the SHO uses recycled plastic soda bottles for the for its interior. Even for its seats. So much for the vinyl in the Bimmer. Also the Impala SS was produced on an ancient chassis. It was a Caprice variant. It came with a 270 hp Corvette engine. The Marauder had a 300 hp engine and was faster than the SS . Also I thought that the Blues Brothers movie used a beat up Dodge police car. In fact I remember part of the movie being shot at the County building in Chicago in the early 80's. Long before the Marauder that had the Gran Marquis body style. But I remember the 1971 Marauder.

lilengineerboy · May 2009

But still a BMW. Ford doesn't have that cache'

How much is a loaded Expedition?

speculator · May 2009

So I am to believe thast a Bimmer owner would purchase a SHO? Tell me what brand has better reputation. Ford or BMW. Are you writing that I would get the same performance from a SHO as I would from a Bimmer or that the fit and finish is the same or better? Or are you writting that the SHO is worth the extra 10 -12 k over a base Taurus. If so ,why? Most of the interior of the Taurus is made from recycled plastic soda bottles. And some auto writers have written that it looks it. That sure sounds as if it is worth 38K. Ford got into the mess that it's in not because its products never offered all of the bangs and whistles but because of its mechanical and with its fit and finish problems. The Ford Taurus models after 1993 had the most government recalls of all vehicles until the car was discontinued in 2004. That was its the problem.

lilengineerboy · May 2009

So are you planning on selling your franchise?

speculator · May 2009

So thatis what this is all about. Don't like anyone who is an insider criticizing the Ford Motor Company. I guess I am to be a team player and believe that everything that Ford does makes business sense. I guess I am suppose to lie to the readers of this post by posting nothing but praise on Ford products while having the readers believe that I am just an ordinary Ford owner. Is that it? How many of all of those who are criticizing me are Ford insiders? I am not a rah-rah boy.

alman08 · May 2009

hmmm... about the depreciation discussion which someone said he could buy a year old Ecoboost MKS for $20k, I highly doubt it. Sure, domestic cars don't hold their value much, but that can be said for BMW and Mercedes. One can actually buy a year old high end BMW and Mercedes for $10k less.
Now, with the discussion on BMW vs. Ford, this one is even more interesting. In my opinion, a BMW (5 series and 7 series) buyer is not going to consider anything from Ford Motor Co. I used the 5 series and 7 series BMW because a Taurus is a full size car and I would not want to compare it to the BMW 3 series. I have yet to see a production SHO in person so it's not fair to comment on the "recycled soda bottle" interior. But if the Flex's interior is any indication of what Ford is doing to improve material quality of the interior in their cars, then I think they're on the right track. Who's going to buy the SHO at that price? No one knows and let the sale figures speak in a year or so.

speculator · May 2009

My point is is that he price of the car is in the segment that the average Ford buyer isn't interested in. What would the average Ford customer think when he sees the price of this car. He might believe that for 38k he could buy a Mercedes or Bimmer or an MKS. That is what I am trying to point out. When I post that Lincoln needs to produce a 60k model, those who post on this sight write that the average Lincoln customer wouldn't purchase such a model because that price is too high for a Lincoln. That it puts Lincoln into competiton with foreign models of similiar price. I guess that the foreign brands would win out in sales. What's the difference with a 38k Ford sedan?

lilengineerboy · May 2009

So thatis what this is all about. Don't like anyone who is an insider criticizing the Ford Motor Company. I guess I am to be a team player and believe that everything that Ford does makes business sense. I guess I am suppose to lie to the readers of this post by posting nothing but praise on Ford products while having the readers believe that I am just an ordinary Ford owner. Is that it? How many of all of those who are criticizing me are Ford insiders? I am not a rah-rah boy.

I apologize. I would consider myself a fanboy at this point but I too am critical of some of Ford's decisions as they affect me personally. I would love a Fusion Sport but instead I am looking at a Fusion S or SE 4 cylinder because those are supposedly available with a manual transmission. Is it worth Ford making a V6 manual for me and the 3 other people that want one?

I certainly didn't mean to make you feel persecuted for your opinions, it just seems that you didn't really like any of the products you are selling. I think its easier to sell a product when you believe in it (hence Chrysler's issue).

In California, most urban car dealers have pretty high turn-over. My buddy was the sales mngr at a Nissan store for a long time before going to Chevrolet, and then back to Nissan because he didn't feel like he could sell Chevys (not saying anything positive or negative about Nissans or Chevys, just his POV).

Again, I didn't mean to make you feel persecuted or interrogated for your comments. I think at this point, Ford needs all the feedback it can get. It also seems like the SHO is just one trim line of one model - a halo vehicle, like the Fusion Hybrid but different segment. Do you think the regular Taurus is too pricey as well?

lilengineerboy · May 2009

When I post that Lincoln needs to produce a 60k model,

Like a Lexus GS400 or like an LS460? Or more like that BMW 5-series? Were you thinking of a big RWD vehicle (modern Town Car)?

izaclown1 · May 2009

It was like driving a couch. Very comfy seats, but it did not really perform until you were on interstate out of town traffic. Was not a comfy ride at all. I have ridden in old pickups that road better. Too stiff in the suspension and you felt every single road surface imperfections. 2 sets of very high priced tires front and back and you did not rotate them. They were only 35kmile or so rated as well. Would not run with anything less than 96 octane.

I looked at one, but the maintenance and gas was out my my price range at the time. Blue Oval bombed on that one.

akirby · May 2009

My point is is that he price of the car is in the segment that the average Ford buyer isn't interested in. What would the average Ford customer think when he sees the price of this car. He might believe that for 38k he could buy a Mercedes or Bimmer or an MKS

And my point (which you are completely ignoring) is that Ford has never tried to sell a Taurus like this, so you can't really say whether the buying public will pay this much for the 2010 Taurus or not. Ford's reputation is totally different than even 2 years ago. Ford's products are totally different now. Regardless of your "soda bottle" comments the Taurus interior is head and shoulders above any previous versions.

Why do you insist on comparing a $38K Taurus to a $38K BMW or MB? You're comparing a nicely loaded 350 HP full sized sedan to a bare bones stripper compact car with 100 less hp (at least).

Someone who wants a full sized sedan won't be looking at a 325i to begin with.

The best comparisons would be a Dodge Charger R/T or Chrysler 300C Hemi and to me the Taurus is a much better car and I would certainly pay the price difference for the SHO over those cars.

As for folks not paying $38K for a Ford - you must not have priced a loaded F150 or Expedition. They already exceed $50K.

nvbanker · May 2009

Also the SHO uses recycled plastic soda bottles for the for its interior. Even for its seats.

Ok now, I just don't see this at all!!! Those days are over, and Ford has a class leading interior these days, as someone said, better than any Lincoln had prior to the MKS. You obviously don't like Ford period.

nvbanker · May 2009

It was like driving a couch. Very comfy seats, but it did not really perform until you were on interstate out of town traffic. Was not a comfy ride at all. I have ridden in old pickups that road better. Too stiff in the suspension and you felt every single road surface imperfections. 2 sets of very high priced tires front and back and you did not rotate them. They were only 35kmile or so rated as well. Would not run with anything less than 96 octane.

I looked at one, but the maintenance and gas was out my my price range at the time. Blue Oval bombed on that one.

I disagree. My test drive of an MKS proved comfortable, quieter than my Lexus LS430, lackluster power but adequate, the tires should be quality and I don't know where you're getting your octane figures, it runs fine on regular, a selling point for the car. Your opinion is entitled, but it lacks credibility to me. :confuse:

akirby · May 2009

He wasn't talking about the MKS - he was either talking about the old Taurus SHO or the Marauder - hard to tell since he didn't quote anything.

brucelinc · May 2009

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/luxury_sedans/2010_li- ncoln_mks_with_ecoboost_first_drive_review

Another positive review of the twin-turbo MKS. They are estimating 0-60 in 5.5 and the quarter mile in 13.9. What a torque monster that ecoboost is! They also discuss the revised suspension tuning and additional sound deadening in the 2010 models - called it borderline playful when driven in anger and "truly serene even at triple digit speeds."

I will draw my own conclusions when mine arrives but after years and years, it appears Lincoln has built a car just for me.

emrnibbles1 · May 2009

But that is the problem with Ford and Lincoln. The suede seats in the Taurus uses recycled plastic to produce the threads that produce the suede. It's not really suede it's really artificial suede. Ford could name it what ever it wants to but it doesn't change what the material is made of. The MKS has to depend on using scrap wood to produce its interior wooden trim. Ford admits that it uses cast-offs from furniture manufacturers for its wooden trim. Not good for a premium car. It's like pinching penneys as is the norm with Ford. If Ford couldn't use srap wood would it still offer wood as an option.

akirby · May 2009

It's not pinching pennies - it's called being environmentally responsible and in case you hadn't noticed - that's a big deal nowadays.

I can't believe you're turning a positive into such a negative.

brucelinc · May 2009

I am not a tree-hugger but I do believe in being responsible. Ford should be extremely proud of what they are doing. Their efforts are a huge positive in my book. From Media Ford:

Fords award-winning soy-based foam seat cushions and backs, for example, will be on more than 1 million Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles by the end of this year, leading to a total reduction in carbon dioxide emissions of more than 5 million pounds. Most recently, Ford announced that the all-new 2010 Ford Taurus SHO, Ford Fusion and Lincoln MKZ will feature sustainable interior materials such as seat fabrics made with varying degrees of post-industrial yarns, suede-like material created from plastic pop bottles, chromium-free leather and engineered ebony wood, all of which reduce waste, energy consumption and CO2 emissions.

To ensure these greener material measures resonate with customers, Ford designers are gaining a deeper understanding of the different levels of green consumerism. Statistics show that one in four adults in the U.S. are living more sustainable lifestyles; interested in companies that are more socially responsible and buying products that are healthier for people and the planet.

explorerx4 · May 2009

as a prior owner of gen 1, 2, and 3 of the SHO, your comments are not based in fact. you are welcome to have an opinion, just don't post like you have some real konwledge. :P

cycler1 · May 2009

As a newbie here and one very interested in the MKS/ecoboost I'd appreciate if anyone knew the release date or when they might show up at dealers ? My local dealer is clueless.

emrnibbles1 · May 2009

But in a 43k loaded Taurus sho and in a 50 k Lincoln. I think I would want better material for these prices than synthetic suede or wood scraps. A 365 hp car that weighs approx 3700-4000 lbs is not environmentally friendly. I would think that the reason for really using synthetic material for suede seats and wood cast offs for panel trim is cost and not because Ford really is environmentally concerned. If it is ,it's only concerned to a point;and that point is is that it is more cost saving using recycled materials over original materials. The car speaks for itself. I don't care about the Polar Bears either. I like large cars with engines that develop a ton of ponies.

emrnibbles1 · May 2009

Well since you are the Ford expert that has all of the connections with the company why don't you ask one of your connections how well is the 50 k Expedition selling? Ask why the Lighting pick up truck you know the performance version didn't sell. Ask about the reason for discontinuing the retro 37k TBird roadster? Ask how well the Flex is selling ? Also the Navigator? What is Ford trying to so with the TaurusSho.? Tell us? Get a hold of your connections and ask. OK.. Wait a minute, Chrysler uses a outdated rwd Mercedes platform for the 300 ,Challenger and Charger. If you do some mkt research you will find that the standard models of the above mentioned models are the models that sell the most and not the performance versions. Also all are available with V8 Hemi that doesn't have to depend on a couple of turbos to develop hp. Do you really want to compare a TaurusSho's outdated modified fwd Volvo platform with an outdated rwd Mercedes platform? Only a Ford employee would. Do you really believe that Ford is being environmentally friendly by producing a car that is about 3700-4000 Lbs with a 365 hp engine because it uses recycled materials for its interior. I would expect better material in a 42 k loaded Taurus Sho or 50 k Lincoln.

explorerx4 · May 2009

a quick google search came up with 'summer 09'.

emrnibbles1 · May 2009

I would say that a number of those on this sight are Ford employees or connected with the marketing of Ford products. Their financial well being depends on Ford doing well. So you have to understand where they are coming from. One poster wrote that he would be willing to pay 38 thousand for a souped up Taurus. He doesn't even think that 38 large is a steep price for a Ford. That should tell you something. I don't know your financial situation but I suspect that it is like mine. If Ford should go under you will have no financial problems, but many of those who depend on Ford don't have that ability. That is why you see all of the disagreement with your position. And sometimes rosy outlooks for Ford that may not be justified with present state of the economy. Ford has a rough time selling its present products but yet It introduces a 50 k base MKT and a 38k SHO Taurus. Go and figure.

lilengineerboy · May 2009

I would say that a number of those on this sight are Ford employees or connected with the marketing of Ford products. Their financial well being depends on Ford doing well. So you have to understand where they are coming from. One poster wrote that he would be willing to pay 38 thousand for a souped up Taurus. He doesn't even think that 38 large is a steep price for a Ford. That should tell you something. I don't know your financial situation but I suspect that it is like mine

LOL. Okay so given your other vehicles (the AWD Bentley and the MBZ S550) I don't think you are in the market for a 30k Taurus or a 50k Lincoln anyway, so I don't see why you feel the need to judge the other posters. I don't see how your opinion is more or less valid than mine, without resorting to assumptions to motivation.

I don't understand what the big deal is I guess. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you want to whine about not liking it, thats fine, but don't get upset if someone does like it.

izaclown1 · May 2009

My reply was to the Marauder not the MKS. I have not had that privilege yet. Right now I am satisfied with my 02 Cartier. That is all I can afford with a child getting ready to go to college in another year.

Sorry for the confusion. The reply did not pick up the quoted material.

akirby · May 2009

I am NOT a Ford employee. I've been posting on this site (not sight) for over 10 years. I am a Ford fan - always have been - and while I might be somewhat optimistic I am not afraid to point out when Ford makes a mistake. The Tbird and Marauder were mistakes. The Taurus is one of the best things Ford has done in years. The interior is the best that's ever been seen in a Taurus. It has AWD and 365 hp available. It even has massaging seats!

I'm guessing you've never actually seen or touched the "recycled wood and suede" that you say is cheap. And I'm willing to bet that it cost Ford a lot of R&D to figure out how to use those recycled materials and get them to look right. So your cost cutting theory is horse hockey. It would have been cheaper to use real wood and suede.

A RWD platform with better weight distribution would have been better. The center console could use some wood (recycled or not). Other than that, I can't see much room for improvement.

As for the price - for decades Ford tried to sell cheap cars and they were successful for awhile. But not today - not with the Koreans and the Chinese moving into the bottom end of the market. Ford has to move upmarket and make the best vehicles they can - and if that means an AWD 365 Hp Taurus cost $38K then so be it.

The Ford brand no longer carries the stigma of a few years ago. I think people are willing to pay for better materials, styling, performance and features. Are they going to sell 400K/yr? Of course not - those days are over anyway. But with all the platform sharing they don't have to sell that many to make money.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. My opinion is just as valid as your opinion and we'll both have to wait for the sales figures to see who is right.

lilengineerboy · May 2009

If you don't like it, don't buy it. My opinion is just as valid as your opinion

This is the best point I've read on the forums in the last week.

speculator · May 2009

Give me a Lincoln flagship something that is along the line of a Jaguar XJ 8. A vehicle that offers a beautiful interior and has the balance of performance between a BMW and a Mercedes. Compare the interior of the MKS with that of a Jaguar. The Jag is clearly the more desirable Otherwise I want something that is above what Lincoln offers now. Get back to rwd. That is where Lincoln belongs. I am not angry at Ford. I just don't believe that a Taurus SHO that is based at 38,000 without options is going to be a great seller. Especially at this time. I am sure that there are some enthusiast that would buy one even though the economy is tanked. .But after them who else. Perhaps if the car had a base at around 32 thou instead of 38 thou. But after 6 months you may see 5 or 6K discounts on this car if it does not sell. The MKS is being discounted more than what was envisioned when the car was introduced about a year ago. J.D. Powers lowered its forecast for total vehicle sales in the U.S for the 09 year to 9.3 million units. The Forecast of sales for the year started at about 12 million units. In February it went down t about 10.5 million units. Now 9.3 million. Who knows what will it 3 months from now? That is why I question the logic of introducing a 38 thousand dollar car for the Ford division. It has nothing to do with the quality of the car. I think that the interior could be a little better designed especially the design of the instrument cluster. But to each his own. To get back to sales. The base Flex has a low sales figure and a loaded one goes for over 40K and it has even a lower sales figures. Part of the reason is the economy and the price. Both work hand in hand.

akirby · May 2009

The only have to make as many SHOs as people are willing to buy - it's just a trim level. If they don't sell a lot they won't make a lot of them. But it certainly helps Ford's image right now to offer it and take advantage of whatever market exists.

As for Lincoln - how many times do we have to point out that Lincoln IS going back to RWD and it's obviously moving upmarket (witness how Mulally is moving Ford more upmarket with the Taurus). But they don't have a current, suitable RWD platform readily available and right now they simply can't afford to build a brand new one.

Why don't you go loan Lincoln a few billion dollars and they'll build just the car you want? Or just be patient and wait for them to get the Ford brand back on it's feet and then they can go after Lincoln. That's been the strategy the last 2 years. Were you asleep at all the dealer meetings?

lilengineerboy · May 2009

Give me a Lincoln flagship something that is along the line of a Jaguar XJ 8. A vehicle that offers a beautiful interior and has the balance of performance between a BMW and a Mercedes. Compare the interior of the MKS with that of a Jaguar. The Jag is clearly the more desirable Otherwise I want something that is above what Lincoln offers now. Get back to rwd. That is where Lincoln belongs.

I think the issue is Ford lacks a modern RWD platform. GM had European and Australian platforms to leverage for the CTS, G8, and GTO. Does Ford have a RWD other than the Mustang (which is live axle even)?

I thought the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type, and T-Bird were all on the same platform. Did that get scrapped when Tata bought Jag?

I just don't believe that a Taurus SHO that is based at 38,000 without options is going to be a great seller.

Are you worried about only the SHO or the whole Taurus line in general? Does it base with the 3.5 from the Edge and then get an EcoBoost after that? I thought Mulally said it wasn't going to cost more than the current Taurus.

akirby · May 2009

I think the issue is Ford lacks a modern RWD platform. GM had European and Australian platforms to leverage for the CTS, G8, and GTO. Does Ford have a RWD other than the Mustang (which is live axle even)?

That's exactly the problem. The Mustang platform isn't suitable for several reasons. They have RWD V8 sedans in Australia but they don't want to just import those (GM tried that unsuccessfully). What Mulally has in mind is a new global platform that can be used for both the NA and Aussie market. It was already underway but was stopped when the economy tanked and fuel prices rose. They had to divert funding to getting the Fiesta and other smaller Euro cars here sooner. Once that's done they'll go back to global RWD.

I thought the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type, and T-Bird were all on the same platform. Did that get scrapped when Tata bought Jag?

They were. The LS and T-bird were cancelled years ago. That platform was too expensive and could not use the cheaper corporate V8. When they decided not to sell it in Europe the business case was dead. Jag upgraded the DEW98 platform which is used now in the XF. Ford wants a new global RWD platform (NA and Australia) and dew98 doesn't fit the bill even if they still owned Jaguar.

russ68 · May 2009

Hi! I'm a potential buyer of a MKS or Navigator with hybrid Technology. I'm 40yr in age and you know what? I really don't care where the foam comes from or if it is real or not. I am very interested in a quite cabin #1, Good sturdy design and finishes that will last. Evan if I decide to keep the care 20 years (garaged of course) #2. I really think Lincoln MKZ 40 mpg and Mercury Milan 42 mpg are doing a great job. I wish they would just introduce the hybrid technology on there SUV's along with the ecoboost on models that appeal to those of us that like space and it's pleasures. I won't even look at a vehicle if I ride in the back of it and can't hear someone in the front due to road noise. In this day and age that is not realistic in a 40k + vehicle. I have a friend which was given a MKZ by her daughter and son-in-law. I did ride in the back of it and was very disappointed at the amount of road noise in the back seat. To me if you are going to spend as much as what a house cost on a vehicles the creators need to pay particular attention to detail and road noise isn't cutting it.

marsha7 · May 2009

alman: "about the depreciation discussion which someone said he could buy a year old Ecoboost MKS for $20k, I highly doubt it."...I was one of those who made this comment, and, I think nvbanker (forgive me if I am wrong) agreed with me in the next few posts...if not nvbanker, then someone else...

While I do not have exact numbers, I would still guess that Big 3 cars will depreciate like rocks...if someone buys an MKS ecoboost for $40K, rest assured that if they trade it in next year, they will be lucky to get over $20K trade-in...in 2 years, the used miodel will sell for $20K...be as optimistic as you want, American cars do not, have not, and will not hold value, with very few exceptions...

alirby says that Ford no longer has the stigma of a few years ago...no doubt they are getting better, but to say that their rep of the last few years has been completely removed is, IMO, not true at all...I also agree with speculator that a Ford at $38K may be difficult to sell...just like VW could not sell a Phaeton, Ford may have trouble with a passenger car, same name as an inexpensive sedan of 1985-2005, selling for over $40K after sales tax, ext warranty, and other goodies added on by the dealer...

Maybe the rep of Ford has changed as far as rotten vehicles, but to think that Ford can approach $40K with an ordinary passenger car, well, I think Ford will be quite surprised when folks say they love the car, but will only spend $10K less than the asking price of the Taurus...

Some car brands simply have reputations that have lasted too many years to change...Ford (and Chevrolet) are mainline US brands not known for expensive cars...when they ask $40K for an ordinary passenger vehicle, I think they are heading into dangerous territory...the reviews may be nice, but folks are not going to drop $40K on a Chevy or Ford...at least not in great numbers that they hope...those cars are, simply, too expensive, esp when they WILL drop like rocks after one year out...a 2010 Taurus or MKS at $35-40K new, will be well under $25K, almost new (used) in 2011...

I could be wrong, but I won't be off by much, maybe a thousand or two...Ford and Chevy do not have any cachet, and even the names Caddy and Lincoln are struggling, IMO...

At $35-40K, Ford is making Honda look better by the day...

[Deleted User] · May 2009

But in a 43k loaded Taurus sho and in a 50 k Lincoln. I think I would want better material for these prices than synthetic suede or wood scraps. A 365 hp car that weighs approx 3700-4000 lbs is not environmentally friendly. I would think that the reason for really using synthetic material for suede seats and wood cast offs for panel trim is cost and not because Ford really is environmentally concerned. If it is ,it's only concerned to a point;and that point is is that it is more cost saving using recycled materials over original materials. The car speaks for itself. I don't care about the Polar Bears either. I like large cars with engines that develop a ton of ponies.
Excuse me, but aren't you being at least slightly ridiculous here? No one puts real suede in a modern car. It doesn't wear well and doesn't stand up. The Audi A8 and other luxury cars have used ultrasuede materials or Alcantara for years.You may not care about polar bears and that is your choice. But Ford is going where there is a market, and green, fake or real, is in. Besides, making recycled materials look and feel quality is neither easy nor cheap to do.

alman08 · May 2009

well, IF one can buy a brand new loaded MKS with Ecoboost for under $40k, that will be good for me too. And lately, I have my eyes on the MKX also, so if MKS with Ecoboost can go for under 40k, hehehehe... MKX for under $30k?

speculator · May 2009

The Taurus Limited with awd is based at around 33 thousand. The car could lose about 2 to 3k off list. The Limited has just about every option that is available on the Taurus SE and SEL as standard though. So what one is basically buying is a fully loaded Taurus SE. Just have a base model and then let the customer pick and choose from an option list of individual items the way he wants his car to be equipped. Now everthing has to come in a package. Just another way to drive up the price of a vehicle above and beyond what a customer may actually need in a vehicle. The 2010 MKS has just about everything that was offered as an option in 09 as standard now. I read on these post that people are asking why the price of the car has risen about 5000 thousand dollars. That's the reason. I agree with what you have written about the Chrysler rear wheel drive models. I also share your view that the Mercedes chassis is a superior chassis as compared to a Volvo chassis. Ford may have the perfect solution to solving its lack of an rwd chassis. Purchase the rwd Chrysler/ Mercedes rwd platform from Chrysler. It's a pretty good platform that Ford may be able to purchased for pennies on the dollar. It certainly could be used to fill in a gap for awhile.

akirby · May 2009

Just have a base model and then let the customer pick and choose from an option list of individual items the way he wants his car to be equipped. Now everthing has to come in a package. Just another way to drive up the price of a vehicle above and beyond what a customer may actually need in a vehicle.

Gee - that's what Ford used to do and the dealers were complaining that it was too cumbersome and that they needed more packages and less individual options. That makes it easier to order for stock.

You sure don't sound like someone who owns a dealership.

esfoad · May 2009

I agree with akirby but also, the foreign car companies have proven that if the packages have the right "mix" of options there is no need to offer those individually. Makes for less vehicles on the dealer lot and less chance to have to order a vehicle the way you want it. Hey, nothing's perfect.

akirby · May 2009

The F150 had something like a million different option combinations a few years ago. It's great if you want to special order but it makes it tough on the dealers to figure out what to stock.

You can question some of the option packaging or standard items but I don't think they can afford to do a la carte options any more.

Lincoln MKS

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