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Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Dated styling's been a long time point of mine,too. Just wondering- how many would go for 300 over mks, styling wise? I'm a fan of this because Chrysler, too was in a situation similar to this. And they did something revolutionary(except interior). But like I've said before, 1car can't save a company. it kills me wen magazines say "why MKX can't save lincoln(MT)." THat hasn't been how it is for a while.
  • And remember, Chrysler will have a new 300 out about the time the MKS hits the road. They could up the bar on revolutionary styling again, and reinvigorate 300 sales. Or not. They certainly seemed to have missed their opportunity with the new Sebring styling (blah). Will be interesting to see what they do with the new 300.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Good point with the neew 300. they coould also beef up interior as sebring's is awesome-maybe even to compare with MKS. What Chrysler messed up with the 'bring was that it's also an old style! Looks like old 300m. They shouould have gone for more Crossfire approach. Chrylser must be done with 300C styling as it's seen nowhere else on their line up. the sebring should look like a sportier smaller version of it. And the pacifica should look like a tall wagon version. But I've proved my old styling point with the MKs. Didn't work with succesful Chrysler brand- and it won't work here.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Know there is a separate forum for this, but this best posted here.
    THere taking lincoln where ever they can! Right now they don't feel they are on steady enough ground to take a bold punch. Hence this MKS. Lately I've been talking a lot about 300 but I know not everyone can have such luck as they did. But still, Either you give your all, or don't give at all. Don't sit on the fence if you want to protect this historic brand!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    they need a similar type hit that they can sell the hell out of soon.
  • And they would have had it 3 years ago, if they had brought the 2002 Continental concept to market. But then think also how much further ehead Ford would be if they had simply re-skinned the Crown Vic to look like the 427 concept (both of these would have out-300ed the 300). And both could have been done on the old Panther platform that is still soldering on and dying of neglect.

    Then if Ford had brought the NaviCross to market for Lincoln, and made the Forty Nine concept into the new Thunderbird (the back seat alone would have saved the T-bird in the marketplace)....well, woulda, coulda, shoulda.

    If this company had any conception of what their periodic successes were built on, we would not have seen them use the same bodies for more than a decade, e.g., the Ranger from 1993 to the present (the platform actually goes back to 1984), the Mustang from 1979 to 1994, the current Crown Vic/GM dating from 1991, etc. etc.

    I do hope there is a new MKZ planned for 2010 at the latest and that they are already at work on the next versions of the MKS and MKX. But I wouldn't count on it.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Wow, did anyone see after getting a very slow start, Ford Five Hundred sales were down 53% last month?

    Note to MKS "designers":-That's what blah styling gets you.

    Bold Moves, huh?
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Ford was "trippin'" so to speak with this one. No one liked this-Ford new that-and yet here come the head of Ford saying "THe 300 looks nice. The 500 looks just as good, and will probably sell better." Must I continue? And like you guys said, they could have reskinned Crown Vic as a 427 (with power, please!) and brought Continental concept and had a hit. I don't think they looked Quite as good as 300, but my oppinion. Ford was stupid then, and now-though they've learned from mistakes (must I dropnames-cough Aviator) they're still a little block headed and stubborn.
  • No shirt. ;)
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    What happened to lincoln/mercury freestyle? Unlike ford, this concept looked NICE!
  • Ford killed it. They were going to bring out the Meta One and discontinue the Ford Freestyle. Instead, they decided to re-do the front of the 2008 Freestyle and kill the Meta. This probably occurred after they decided not to offer third row seating in the Edge. In any event, they will regret giving Mercury such short shrift. They can't even sell 50,000 Milans per year, and in that category, they should be moving more like 100,000. As long as Mercury remains an afterthought of this screwed up company, it will not be any more than that.

    Actually, I think the MKS should have been a Mercury...one that could compete with Chrysler and Buick. Lincoln still needs the Continental.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "Actually, I think the MKS should have been a Mercury..."

    I've come to the conclusion that Mercury is toast. They've set it up that way and Mulally I think will pull the plug. There's nothing new in the pipe for Mercury as far as we know. Nothing special. Just the me-tooness of the Montego, Milan and Mariner. So easy to just erase the Mercury on the side and make em Ford trim levels. Lincoln, meanwhile, is getting lots (from the perspective of Fomoco) of new product and lets face it - cheapened product at that. One could say that Lincoln is moving down market to sit just above where Mercury used to be when it had a personality of it's own other than Jill Wagner.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Say what you want, but don't diss Jill Wagner.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "don't diss Jill Wagner."

    Wasn't wouldn't nope not me - I won't diss that gal. She don't ness'ly make me wanna buy some wheels, but takin a ride does come to mind.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    You guys know ford might have to kill someone off. After they get rid of one of their many British brands, Mercury is definitely next. If the new MKS and other future lincolns don't leave the floor, It's not Lincoln going down the tube-yet.
  • What a stupid thing to get rid of their British brands now. A few years ago, it would have made great sense to pull the plug on Jaguar. Not buying Land Rover in the first place would also have been wise. But these brands are now tied into FoMoCo structure all across the board. And now Jaguar has two new sedans (that are not boring retro) in the pipeline, Land Rover actually has a good line-up, and Aston Martin is a stellar brand in sales and image.

    Selling any of them is not going to raise enough money to matter, but it will further degrade Ford's deservedly bad image. I'll say it again...a bunch of overpaid losers got control of this company when it was riding high. Ran it all the way down, and now like Bush with Iraq, has no clue about a path out of the mess they created.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Gosh, gregg, why did you have to ruin an absolutely brilliant post, with your politics??

    I could not agree with you more than I do on selling PAG. Now's not the time - so much has been invested in fixing, modernizing, and developing these three brands, to sell them now would give the buyer 3 heritage brands poised for greatness with just a little more tweaking and support. The brands are only lacking decent marketing now, to be successful, IMO.

    I could not disagree with you more on our President - but this is NOT the place to debate that. So, here I though you were a genius, until...... ;)
  • pnewbypnewby Member Posts: 277
    Still no word from Ant sinc 10/20/6. Guess the way forward got another of the "good guys"? :cry:
  • Thank you, and I don't need to debate the obvious (even Bush is now saying "it's bad" there). ;)

    Besides, you make a lot of assumptions based on a comment that a Republican, Democrat or independent could have as easily dropped. It is so true that politics and religion (both insane topics) are best avoided in polite company.

    Back to the topic...I guess we'll see how dumb the Ford team really still is. Selling PAG now goes in the dumb column for sure.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Back to the topic...
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  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I must be the only Republican who EVER attended UWM, you think? I remember Madison as the cradle of liberalism, so you don't surprise me - nevertheless, you make some excellent points in the car arena - selling PAG will not only take out the European footprint of Ford's luxury line, the only one they have left - but also eliminate the cross-pollenation synergy that is provided with the foreign engineering. Ford is riding mostly on Mazda platforms and Volvo platforms now - not altogether a bad thing. The LS, a great Lincoln rode on the Jag platform, which was part of its demise due to price points etc. Think of what will be left of Ford if they do? Good trucks - and a bunch of Mazdas with F names..... Seems to me, it may stop some bleeding, which must be done, but perhaps a better way to stop bleeding would be to market the crap out of the new Rovers & Jags. Aston Martin actually makes money already, so no need to sell them. One more thing - I hear people all the time denigrating Jaguars by saying, "it's just a Ford". There is no justice, I know, but I have never heard anybody say about a Bentley, that it's just a VW. And it's as much a VW as Jag is a Ford. If we could get a few Rappers to drive a Jag, maybe???
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Come on guys- you know two things you never discuss in public are politics and religion! But back on point- If FOrd needs the money, then somethings gotta give. and they really don't want to give up their unadopted child brand-Mercury- or the usefull Volvo?mazda. I sugest Jaguar-It's doing nothing right now. And rappers do have these things in there videos (trust me-I know) but look how their doing! as long as it ain't Aston- what great seller. And it has such potential. Look at VW and Bently. Ors that Bimmer?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    It's VW and Bentley - but I still think if they restyled the XJ8, and left it the same underneath, it would revive Jaguar. They need a great looking car, that's a sedanola. Jag is a good car, it's a technologically advanced car, it performs well, not class leading, but well, and the R version is fast, very fast, but it's just not forward looking at all. It's too "staid", even for the british.....
  • Cheney attended UW too. :) BTW, UWM stands for UW-Milwaukee.

    The plan is to re-skin the current XJ, and the proposed style will certainly make it stand out. The S Type becomes the XF next year, and it is also a great leap forward stylistically (is that a word?).
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    UW - that's right, I was careless, my bad.

    Got any pictures, gregg? Dying to see them..... Wondering why they're dropping the S-type moniker in favor of XF honestly......the S-type was a hit, and a great car at the same time. Do you know when these cars will hit the dirt? Because I firmly believe new product that's good will revive the brand, unless the engineering expense is too much. Those aluminum cars have to be expensive to make up front.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They're trying to be more consistent (XJ, XK, XF) and I think they're trying to lose the "less expensive car based on a Ford" stigmatism that the S-type has (although I don't believe it's deserved).
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    So, in other words, the same committee of yes-men who answer to spineless dopes who are guided by focus groups that came up with the absurd MksMkzMkx mess is going to screw up Jaguar's names too?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Jag has been using X names since 1948 when the XK120 debuted.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    But aren't you the guy who thought Zephyr was a great name because Lincoln used it 65+ years ago?

    Just like with Lincoln, it will prove foolish to give all the cars the same name, separated only by a single letter.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't recall saying that, but Jag has had the XJ and XK for many years without any issues so I don't know why XF would be a big problem. I also thought S type was too easily confused with Acura's Type S.

    I think the problem with Lincoln is having 2 letters the same at the beginning (MK) instead of just one. It makes them harder to distinguish IMO.

    I still think that Lincoln's alphabet soup will be replaced with names like Continental within the next 2 years.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I don't recall saying that, but Jag has had the XJ and XK for many years without any issues so I don't know why XF would be a big problem.

    Seriously - it's only a problem for me, because it doesn't feel right - XL, XM, XN not bad, but XF - just sounds funky, and makes me think of X-Ford. NOT what they need right now. However, I could be way off (again)....

    I still think that Lincoln's alphabet soup will be replaced with names like Continental within the next 2 years.

    I can't TELL you how much I hope that is true!
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    "XF" is utterly preposterous if they intend to distance themselves from the Ford brand. That's just pathetic.

    What Ford's groupthink specialists missed is that the names they tried to copy, have the differentiating character at the BEGINNING of the name (i.e E350, 530, RX330 ) Not at the end of the name: MKSMKZMKX

    The naming disaster of the Zephyr, I mean MKZ (To be pronounced "Mark-Z" ...oh never mind you should call it "em kay zee") summarizes the rudderless, flailing plight of the whole company
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    My sources tell me that Alan has made some drastic differences already with Ford, and Lincoln's resurrection is a priority with him. But it will take time, even with a keg of dynamite, to blow up this sea of confusion. I'll bet the dealers are just having a fit right now. Morale has to be as low as it was in 65, when Mercury had no product - Lincoln had only one, the Continental, and it was getting old fast......

    The Lincoln Division needs a new boss, don'tchathink? I'd fire this guys butt with a lot of noise, and put a car guy in there fast, if I were Mulally. Clearly, the direction they are going is wrong.... NOBODY here, and we used to be loyal Lincoln enthusiasts - I've been driving them for 15 years, until now, likes what they have become.....
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    First, they should have at least stuck with pronouncing the MK as "Mark". THat at least would have made some historical sense. Emm Kay is stooopid. It boggles my mind to think that people who come up with this cr_p are making probably 6 figures.

    Next, whattya mean 65 when Mercury had no product? That was a great year for Mercury. The '65 full size Merc had much more in common with the Continental than it did with the Ford that year. And the '65 Comet was a big hit and is a hot car in the collector's market to this day.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    whattya mean 65 when Mercury had no product? That was a great year for Mercury. The '65 full size Merc had much more in common with the Continental than it did with the Ford that year. And the '65 Comet was a big hit and is a hot car in the collector's market to this day.

    Well - ok, honestly? I was going by what Iacocca said in his book, and I forgot, most of that book was fiction...
    He said he saved Lincoln and Mercury, who were dead on their butt, with the 67 Cougar and the 69 Mark III. Undisputed runaway sellers, to be sure. That's what I was referring to. I do recall 65 Mercurys, and they were pretty cool, though I liked the 67's better actually. Back then, Mercury tried to look like a smaller Lincoln, instead of today, when Mercury resembles a slightly chromier Ford. And I've bought a lot of those lately....sigh....
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Oh yeah, Lee Iacocca the man who saved Ford AND Chrysler, just ask him. Remember those pathetic 'K' cars he was peddling? My gosh, what junk.
    The best thing Io did for Chrysler besides get a free taxpayer loan was to buy AMC to get Jeep. Then the lying SOB did within a year exactly what he promised NOT to do which was close the oldest car plant in America, the AMC plant in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Lots of folks out in the street on that deal. AMC gone. Yeah, most dont miss em. I had 3 AMC vehicles and while they were not the pinnacle of automotive design, they were as good as anything the big 3 had at the time (who would seriously take a Vega or Pinto over a Gremlin knowing what we know now?) and I drove one to 140,000 with only a timing chain replaced. Nice little V8 Hornet. Lee Io can kiss my LS.

    The 65 Mercs were awesome. I had both a 64 and a 65 convert and they were like night and day. The 64 was a Ford with diff tail lights and grille. The '65 was shaped like and was as big as the Continental and had bigger engines and upscale interior compared to the Ford. The '67s were nice too. If I ever get a few extra bucks for a toy car, this time I'd like to find a nice '67 Park Lane convt or if I have a few more bucks, a 1960. 67-69 Cougar would also be on the short list. I guess I'm still a Fomoco guy at heart.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The 65 Mercs were awesome. I had both a 64 and a 65 convert and they were like night and day.

    Ya see, those were the salad days for Ford, because Mercury had a real purpose, was marketed as "the man's car" at the time, then evolved into the 'sign of the cat' after the Cougar took off. Can you believe what they eventually made the Cougar into, that obese Torino/LTD II clone?? Whoever was responsible for reviving Mercury at the time, we need him back, and it's not Elena Ford.....

    I had an LTD II. It was a good car for the day, and held up lots better than some of GM's trash that had the Metric 200 transmissions in them. But it was no Cougar...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I'm still a Fomoco guy at heart.

    It's hard to get that Ford Blue out of your blood, isn't it George? As ripped off as I am at Ford right now, I still feel some movement in my heart when I see and old Ford restored and running, or a new F-250 really working its butt off, and I still like that new Mustang, though its time for me has passed. I seriously considered a Thunderbird for a long time, but can't justify it. Sure admire them though...
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Well ford's in trouble now! As this has already been established. What happened to the company that built the super Taurus?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    We know, in fact, those of us who are experts on the brand know it best. We see it in the lack of product, engineering and delivery. What happened to the company that changed the automotive world with the Taurus is, that Donald Peterson and Phil Caldwell retired, and Jacques Nasser took over, and spent all the cash they had on foreign brands and parts outlets all through Europe and rental car agencies (Hertz). Then, he systematically began to get rid of all the white male employees, engineers who know the company and Ford, and the Taurus, designers ditto, and replaced them with diversity - however, this new crowd of kids didn't have the experience they needed. Then the Explorer rollover thing happened. Then, to make matters worse, Bill Ford took over and began unraveling everything Nasser had done, even the good things like PAG, which Lincoln was in. The Lincoln LS was Nassers car, and his first ovation to change the Lincoln brand. It was a wonderful car, a good idea, and Bill killed it immediately.
    Bill damn near bankrupted his company. Don't know if Mulally can pull it out or not, but I'm betting on him. Just bought a ton of Ford stock and will ride it out with them. Strictly a financial gamble, nothing else. I think he'll do it - but I think Ford will be a completely different looking company when he's done too.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Yeah, Bill Ford looks like having down syndrome on TV commercials. I am all for diversity, civil rights and things, but down for CEO of global company – it is way too far in my book :)

    But seriously he looks more like ACLU chairman than car company CEO. Don’t believe he really understands cars and car business so what did you expect?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "I am all for diversity, civil rights and things,"

    In what way do these things help design and build a better car?
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    It may not help, but it feels good!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Unless you lose your job to diversity - that doesn't feel so good. Those who used to build cars here aren't feeling so good now that the MKS is made in Mexico. Ford may have no choice in the matter, but it's not a good feeling for any of us, really.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Iacocca also reportedly ordered much of the AMC replacement parts inventory sent to landfills, causing great harm to people who own and want to care for / restore AMC cars.

    I also miss AMC - my mother bought a 1970 Ambassador SST (360) which had been an Avis rental car, and it went 140,000 miles before we gave it away before moving 1/2 way across the country. The only repairs needed were replacement of the valve stem seals, rebuilding the carburator, and replacing the Delco distributor. My brother and I bought a used 1970 AMX (360 Auto.) in 1976, our senior year in high school, and replaced it with a 1979 Trans Am (Pontiac 400 4-speed WS-6, delivered to the dealer after a 4-month wait with a basket-ball sized dent in the door, badly mismatched paint on the hood and one front fender, Camaro wheels, and no bird decal...) because one of our sisters also attended the same university. The AMX was a better car.

    nvbanker - my wife and I are contemplating more stock market investments, but Ford ... that sure is a gamble. Just like AMC, they may have made one too many mistakes to survive.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Most of engineers in our company are Asian immigrants and were are global technology leader and kicking [non-permissible content removed] globally unlike Ford. But we do not have any unions and all production facilities are in Asia (Japan and China). Ford needs to get rid of unions ASAP and move production where it makes more sense economically. Michigan is a socialist enclave in America and I do not see anything good happening in Michigan in the long run. These 1950s type companies are not going to survive unless they undergo radical restructuring.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    nvbanker - my wife and I are contemplating more stock market investments, but Ford ... that sure is a gamble. Just like AMC, they may have made one too many mistakes to survive

    You may be correct - but the folks with AMC stock received Chrysler stock when they were bought, and did alright in the short run....and the very long run. However, I'm betting (a small portion of my portfolio) that Mulally can save the company. What it may look like - who knows, when he's done. Consider filling out your Carspace page? I was hoping to see some pictures of your cars there - but, alas...nothing! :)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Most of engineers in our company are Asian immigrants and were are global technology leader and kicking [non-permissible content removed] globally unlike Ford. But we do not have any unions and all production facilities are in Asia (Japan and China). Ford needs to get rid of unions ASAP and move production where it makes more sense economically. Michigan is a socialist enclave in America and I do not see anything good happening in Michigan in the long run. These 1950s type companies are not going to survive unless they undergo radical restructuring.

    You may be right on all counts, STL. And I don't dispute the counter-productiveness the UAW has had on Ford and other companies in the US. But I think you may be over reaching a bit indicating that only Asians can be engineers now. FAct is, the Auto today has been greatly influenced by Asia, and Asians make the best cars today. Prior to the last 10-15 or so years though, Germans and Americans made the best cars and the engineering of the past has to be credited to them. Refinement - is credited to the Asians.

    Why the MKS must be made in Mexico, is credited to the UAW. The condition of the Ford Motor Company, IMO, is credited to Bill Ford and the family. Just my opinion. I've rarely been so disappointed in a CEO.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    BTW, in no way am I recommending anybody else jump off this cliff with me. I've been wrong before.... BOY was I wrong before. Not on Microsoft though - bought shares at $1.00 back in 78.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    BOY was I wrong before. Not on Microsoft though - bought shares at $1.00 back in 78.

    Wow :surprise: My family history is repleat with "woulda shoulda coulda" including passing on original issue Ford stock, original issue McDonald's stock, and venture capital to Dairy Queen. Oh, well. Woulda should coulda
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