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Future Chevrolet Camaro
navigator89
Member Posts: 1,080
Chevrolet killed the Camaro in 2002. For 2006 they've unveiled a pretty good looking concept, for the most part.
They haven't confirmed it will be going into production, but I think it is very likely considering that Ford already has the Mustang and the new GT500, and Dodge has just unveiled a Challenger that will most definitely make production.
The Camaro's concept got plenty of power, 6 speed manual with small block V8 putting out 400hp.
The interior looks pretty retro overall but some design elements probably wont make production.
I like the looks of this car but I've been hearing some talk about smoothing out the grille and other modifications to the design. I like it yet I like the Challenger and Mustang more.
Overall I'd say this is a very solid effort from Chevy. This car could really spark interest in Chevrolet proving that they can build exciting cars every now and then.
Check these out.
Camaro pictures and information.
Camaro unveiling video.
The first photos.
More pictures.
Let the muscle car wars begin!
They haven't confirmed it will be going into production, but I think it is very likely considering that Ford already has the Mustang and the new GT500, and Dodge has just unveiled a Challenger that will most definitely make production.
The Camaro's concept got plenty of power, 6 speed manual with small block V8 putting out 400hp.
The interior looks pretty retro overall but some design elements probably wont make production.
I like the looks of this car but I've been hearing some talk about smoothing out the grille and other modifications to the design. I like it yet I like the Challenger and Mustang more.
Overall I'd say this is a very solid effort from Chevy. This car could really spark interest in Chevrolet proving that they can build exciting cars every now and then.
Check these out.
Camaro pictures and information.
Camaro unveiling video.
The first photos.
More pictures.
Let the muscle car wars begin!
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Styling (with the exception of the nose) looks 'right' to my eyes.
But I see NO WAY that GM can build this car, with an aluminum 400hp LS2, IRS, and 6M for less than $30k.
What killed the last F-bodies was NOT a lack of performance. Partly what killed them was the cost. GM would do fine with their 5.3l V8 as the 'standard' V8 and a 5M to keep the base V8 cost at around $25-26k.
Leave the LS2 for a future SS edition. And maybe some enterprising 'Yenko' type dealer can talk GM into a few Z06 editions....
But I dont think price will stop die hard Camaro fans.
I guess at the end of the day the Mustang stands out as the real value, albeit with less power, only 300hp for less than $30K. But even it's 450hp cousin the GT500 will be $40K.
Essentially there is no way for the Big 3 to sell +400hp muscle cars at $30K. The Mustang has 300hp so that's why it's cheap.
It's my opinion, but there will be very few people who will pay $35k for a 2 door rwd v-8 coupe. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept, but the reality is, not many people who can afford this, will buy it. It is a niche vehicle, and when the price spars past $30k, it becomes even more of a niche. Now around $22k - $26k, then you have a lot more potential buyers.
I agree with Rorr, put in the 5.3, and leave the 6.0 for future models or Yenko tuners. I think the 3.9 with a turbo or supercharge would also be a viable alternative.
No matter what, Camaro's have always been about performance and value, and they are not mutually exclusive. If the Camro can't compete price wise with the 300 hp Mustang, that extra 100 hp may make it faster, but it will lose a lot in sales.
If they want to get an edge, make an awd Camaro. Those of us in the snow belt would really be interested then. True, that goes against the original, but so do airbags, and ABS and most of us (I know not all) believe those are important items to have too. I think the IRS is a good move on their part, but I would rather less and not have it - or have the option if that was possible. Lack of an IRS doesn't seem to be hurting Mustang sales I don't think.
Interesting pictures.
Second, who in the heck is Mike from Scarborough? If you want to reply to someone, there's a nice little 'reply' option next to each post. It works great and can cut down on the confusion.
Third, I'll agree that for the last few years, the Mustang certainly hasn't been in the same ball park (ie. graveyard of failed models). And for several years prior to that, it certainly wasn't in the same low-selling ballpark as the Camaro (more than double Camaro/Firebird sales combined). I'm fairly certain FoMoCo didn't want to be in that particular ball park.
But even if you only look at performance, the Mustang has been pretty much in the same ballpark as the Camaro for most of their history which is one reason why the rivalry has been so entertaining for nearly 40 years.
And fourth, I think it's just a tad bit early to start comparing the two since all we've seen to this point on the Camaro is a concept. We have no idea if the LS2, 6sp, IRS, etc. will actually make production and, if they do, where the MSRP might be.
Which brings me to a question for the forum: can the Camaro compete with the Mustang on roughly equal performance footing (approx. 300hp/5sp manual in a 3500lb package for a base of $25k) OR must the Camaro offer superior performance to sell in large numbers?
The reason I ask is because the previous generation F-bodies had superior performance but there was a price to be paid; either in a higher MSRP or perceived reliability/quality issues, insurance cost, etc. Does GM run the risk of deja vu all over again if they go for the big 6.0l guns right out of the box?
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I agree but I think the base price needs to be under 25k. 30k is still too much for the young guys who would love these cars. Under 25k means a smaller, lighter body and a smaller engine. A sharp looking coupe with 250hp that weighed under 3000lbs could be a lot of fun. The price would be lower, the mileage would be better, the insurance would be lower. Makes a lot more sense to me than a 3800lb car with 400hp that costs 35k.
And you hinted at the REASON you won't see this anytime soon in your own post.
Demand.
If Ford dealers are able to get MSRP (or perhaps more) on virtually EVERY stinkin' Mustang GT they can lay their hands on, why should Ford even CONSIDER offering a stripped version with JUST the go-fast goodies? Wouldn't it be in their financial best interest (since they sell virtually as fast as the factory can crank them out) to sell higher profit GT models vs. a modern LX version?
Same goes for the Camaro: IF (and this is a big if), they can sell every loaded Z28 edition they can possibly build, why reduce their profit by offering a stripped RS model? Why not wait until the demand has cooled, and then offer the stripped models with the big motor to spur sales?
In other words, I love the concept of stipped models with all the REAL go-fast goodies, but I wouldn't expect to see such an animal for several years after introduction.
Don't know about the Challenger and the ability to sell at over $30k. I don't think Chrysler intends to move NEARLY as many units as Ford (or even GM) so the $30k base price level may not be a killer. Plus, for some reason I've never really figured out the Mopar nuts out there; who knows what they'd be willing to spend... :P :confuse:
Agree on the Camaro. GM needs to get this car to market for a base of $25-26k for the V8 version. Which is why IMO the LS2 will drop by the wayside somewhere between the concept version and the production version. Too pricey and the car should be quick enough with 'only' 300hp from their 5.3l V8.
Can someone explain to me why GM NEEDS a 100hp advantage in order to be competitive with Ford?
Camaro
We've found our deal-killer!
I knew I'd never buy aChevy! Iknew it, I knew it.......
DrFill
Best Regards,
Shipo
Yes, and an automatic is the standard transmission in the GTO. A manual is still available for the GTO.
Any word on if a manual would be AVAILABLE on the Camaro?
One doesn't start a war with mediocrity.
So you admit that the Camaro would be mediocre with 300hp?
But I LOVE the Camaro Concept! :shades:
Why buy a 'Vette for $45k when you have a hotter, cheaper version for $25k, with the same power?
DrFill
That would be awesome. I find it a bit unrealistic to expect GM to bring a new Camaro to market with a 6sp manual, all aluminum LS2, and an IRS for $25k......
yes
you: "yes"
me: Why? The previous generation started with around 275hp in the Z28 and peaked at around 305hp or 310hp for the Z28. And the performance of the Z28 soundly spanked the Mustang of the day. Were those Camaros mediocre? Certainly not from a performance standpoint, yet the Mustang KILLED the F-bodies in sales.
Why should this be? Are you saying that Americans are naturally attracted to mediocre cars? That would be one perspective. Another would be that some folks don't spend their life in one stoplight duel after another and want general day-to-day livibility out of their cars as well.
Let's assume that GM finds a way to put the LS2 in a new Z28 and bring the car to market for the mid-upper $20's (say....$27.5k). Do you think they can actually DO this and not cut costs/corners in the car? What do you think happens to insurance rates with 400hp available in a sub-$30k car? How would the new Camaro avoid the same thing that killed the old Camaro?
Ford has shown (and GM should learn) that performance, and performance ALONE, does not necessarily lead to a sales success. If GM can find a way for the car to be a success with performance SIMILAR to the Mustang, then they can re-introduce the SS version with the LS2.
I think this car is coming out too late, I am afraid that in 09 gas will be $5/gal and many will not be looking at V8's for a daily drive cars. Think they need to come out with a 6 cylinder DOHC as a base engine.
I know the dream ends and now I fall out of bed.
I may never own a GM car again. It would take a lot of things coming together. First and foremost the company has to survive, then the car has to make sense to buy. Maybe a used Corvette -- kinda a specialty GM car. Hard to believe it is a Chevy for some reason. Most of those seem only to come to mind when thinking of rental cars, or bargain transportation. Anyway, a sports car Camaro, might be something to consider, in the third year of production.
Loren
P.S. A 2,800# or less Camaro would be just awesome.
Gee, that sounds like fun.
Hey, while we're dreaming let's just wish that GM would drop a 540 crate motor into these things and offer them for $19,995.
You may want to direct your bean counting ire to GM. I'm simply trying to talk, rationally, about what (IMO) GM needs to offer in the car AND STILL SELL LOTS OF UNITS FOR A PROFIT. You are aware that GM (particularly at this stage) must actually sell units for a profit?
You never really answered my implied question: why would a 300 hp Camaro be mediocre? If the Mustang GT offered 400hp, would a 400hp Camaro be mediocre?
Look, here is the deal...
They should be able to have the 240hp V6 in the base model for around 20 - 25K. Then they can have 1 or 2 V8's. 1 V8 for 25-30K and the 6.0L for 30 - 35.
Dreaming? What are you talking about? 1 out of every 6 Corvettes coming off the line has the LS7.
If you've ever built any engines, you know a 300 horse sb Chevy is a compromise. 400 n/a from a 280ci Mustang is quite a feat. I sympathize with anyone trying to do it.
It may be pricier than Mustang, but the engines will be stronger, and the body much sexier.
Keeping it under 3500lbs for the V8 would be nice.
DrFill
I had no idea Z06 production was so high. Is that the permanent target ratio or is that a temporary measure until they catch up with Z06 demand? BTW-what's the purpose of injecting the LS7 into this?
A 300hp sb Chevy is a compromise? All engines are a compromise. You could probably build a 600hp sb Chevy; is anything less a compromise?
Yes 400hp from a n/a 4.6l Ford would be a substantial feat. Of course, Ford has a 400hp n/a 5.0l crate motor version of the 4.6 available.
You still haven't answered my question: why is the concept of a 300hp Camaro mediocre? Is your ONLY yardstick the hp level of the Mustang?
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The Z-11 Impala, the ZL-1 Camaro, and the LS7 Corvette all have 427s from completely different engine families. A previous poster may have already pointed out a comment from Mr Lutz where he's referring to putting 500 horses in the new car. That's a reference to using the LS7, not something from the mkIV/Gen-5/Gen-6 family.
Challenging? Perhaps.
It's been stated a 300hp Camaro would be mediocre. I'd like to know on what basis. Is anyone obligated to respond? Nope.
If (and I say if) I stated a 400hp Camaro would be overkill and stupid on GM's part, I'm sure I'd be asked why I felt that way. And I would recognize that some opinions can't simply exist in a vacuum and deserve to be questioned.
Personally, I think GM should design a Camaro which can compete with the Mustang on the basis of style, quality, usability, and performance at a competitive price. I'm afraid that IF they concentrate too much on one particular area (performance), they could short change the car in other areas in an effort to meet a price point. For many long-time Camaro fans, this may be a non-issue. Performance and performance ALONE is what counts. I'm afraid that if GM does this, they'll end up with a rerun of the last generation Camaro: a car that killed the Mustang in 0-60, 1/4 mile, and no where else.
And when someone makes a flat, bald statement that a 300hp Camaro would be 'mediocre' I get the impression they want GM to keep doing again and again and again what they've always tried to do with the Camaro and somehow expect a different result (sales success).
My lineup would look like this:
A base model (V6 around 240hp) for $20-25k
A base Z28 model (5.3l V8 with around 300hp) for $25-30k
An upmarket SS model (LS2 with 400hp) for $32-37k
Have convertible versions available for each model with a $3k premium. I don't care what transmission is 'standard' so long as a manual (5sp in V6 editions and 6sp in V8's) is available priced around $1k less than the automatics.
I would be surprised if it did.
DrFill
Good point though, they would probably have to detune the LS7 or put a different cam in it if they were to offer it as an option on the Camaro.
A base model (V6 around 240hp) for $20-25k
A base Z28 model (5.3l V8 with around 300hp) for $25-30k
An upmarket SS model (LS2 with 400hp) for $32-37k
Have convertible versions available for each model with a $3k premium. I don't care what transmission is 'standard' so long as a manual (5sp in V6 editions and 6sp in V8's) is available priced around $1k less than the automatics.
I agree. If the Camaro gets more power it should not be form the LS7, that needs to be Corvette/Cadillac (like in the STS-V) it should be from improving the engines they have. How about making the 400hp on the corvette get 425 and then Corvette owners will not feel any pain.
PS: I hope at least all the V8 engines on the Camaro have the DOD feature. Meybe GM will get balsy and put in VVT from the V6 (they are both OHV) and meybe DI, but thats asking for too much.
Doesn't the current 5.3l V8 have DOD? I don't see any reason why it couldn't also be implemented on the LS2 for an SS version.
I wasn't aware GM had managed to implement VVT on an OHV design. Interesting. Which OHV V6 do they have with VVT?
"DI" = Direct Injection? Probably around the corner. It's becoming more and more popular with some of the smaller engines (I believe Volkswagon uses it in a few models and Mazda is using it in their 2.3l turbo in the Speed6 and upcoming Speed3).
Not exactly the highlights of GM's engineering history. As in the Blazer, I could do 30 without getting into a gear, makes learning to drive much easier when you can merge in Park!
DrFill
Off topic but....
I learned how to drive out in the pasture in my dad's '72 Toyota Hi-lux pickup (in '76? '77?). That way I was sure to not break anything valuable :sick:
The first time I was ever even exposed to an automatic was when I was in Driver's Ed. I thought I knew everything I needed to know (well, I was 16 - don't we ALL know everything we need to know by the time we're 16?) when I was confronted with a car with just 2 pedals. The urge to do SOMETHING with my left foot was overpowering. Interesting braking maneuver the first time I nailed the brake when my left foot was looking for the clutch....
A base Z28 model (5.3l V8 with around 300hp) for $25-30k
An upmarket SS model (LS2 with 400hp) for $32-37k
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Sounds about right to me. And keep the weight under 3500lbs.
The 3.5 and 3.9 found on the impala, monte carlo, etc have the VVT technology. I have the 06 impala ltz with the 3.9 and it is a nice motor.
A man can dream can't he? . . . .
Base
3.9/240
Z/28
5.3/303
SS
6.0/400
SS 396
6.2/435
SS 496
7.0/475
ZL1
7.0/505