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Comments
The battery will not "depleted" but no longer aid even needed. True, you are running by the gas engine only while the battery will be charged to certain pecentage, than the Synergy system will activate it for exessive torque needed."
I think we are speaking of different hybrids; I was referring to the HCH, with the IMA, you are describing the Prius, with HSD.
I am back and a proud owner of 2006 Prius, right here in TCH thread =D Prius HSD have gears in the planetary gearset. It does not SHIFT any gear. The shift occurs in energy, from mechanical to electrical and vice versa. This creates high and low thrust, without the need to shift gear -- as in traditional transmission. The balance is controlled by how much HSD generates electricity. A breakthrough concept isn't it? IMA does not utilize this amazingly simple concept.
"However, I think a transmission should be defined as the mechanism by which the engine power is transferred to the wheels."
I disagree. You are describing a "Transmitter" as in WHAT transmits power. However, a "Transmission" is rather HOW power is transmitted. HSD does not have extra (dedicated) hardware to create the purpose of having/creating a transmission job. Everything was created out of simple 5 rolling gearset.
Dennis
Can't wait to test drive the TCH when it comes out.
http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/specs.pdf
I am holding in my hand a printed copy of this page from when it was first posted a few weeks ago and it lists 43/37.
And the latest edition of the Hybrid Synergy View newsletter, of which I just got today also lists 43/37.
http://www.toyota.com/hybridsynergyview/2006/winter/favoritecar.html?url=button
I bet this is our first clue that the EPA has completed their testing and the results aren't what Toyota predicted. This will probably mean the Hybrid Tax Credit value will fall as well. :mad:
I hope you realize this wasn't my statement.
"However, I think a transmission should be defined as the mechanism by which the engine power is transferred to the wheels."
This part is mine, and I stand by my definition. Transmitter? The thing that provides power in a vehicle is the motor, either ICE or electric, or both.
I think you answered the original question about gears in your statement, I will emphasize the important part:
"Everything was created out of simple 5 rolling gearset."
Cheers,
MidCow
Mark Twain. It's as true today as when he said it.
HSD - Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive
Changing the definition to fit a product, eh?
FULL means FULL.
Since IMA lacks the ability to create & consume electricity at the same time, how can that possibly be considered the same as the HSD and Ford hybrid systems?
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!
IMA cannot use electric propulsion to help climb a hill while at the same time recharge the battery-pack. That is most definitely a useful ability... one that ASSIST hybrids do not provide.
The new Civic-Hybrid is missing that, so it cannot possibly be considered full. It is still an ASSIST hybrid.
JOHN
Don't let them drag you into a semantec argument. Gears shift. Since nothing shifts in the PSD, nothing can be called a gear. There are devices inside that carry power. So the term "power carrier" is definitely a better label.
Whatever the case, it is crystal clear that many still don't have any idea what goes on under the hood. There are summary documents available, like this one. I strongly suggest they consult them before jumping to anymore conclusions.
JOHN
They do? Gears in a differential don't shift. planetary gears do not have to shift. I would gather from what you are saying the system in the HSD uses belts and pulleys to transfer power from the power sources to the wheels. With NO gears in the design. Unless of course the motor is directly hooked to each wheel through a reduction gear, like the hybrid systems used in heavy equipment. Hybrid systems are as varied as the imagination. To try and say one is "full" and another is "half" seems to give a tunnel vision view of hybrid technologies. All hybrid systems have something to offer the buyer. If not they will not sell and will be scrapped.
JOHN
- Incorrect comments about HSD system unable to run gas engine while in reverse.
- Myths about HSD being inefficient on the highway (I can get about 55mpg on the highway. Name any size traditional car sold in US with any engine size that can match that). QED.
- Myths about the need to replace battery and inflated cost of the battery pack. (The cost mentioned was actually a 4 years old number and prices have come down to $2,150. It is even lower than 4-speed Camry automatic transmission.)
Dennis
When compared to Prius:
- Battery pack makes 17 hp more (45 hp vs. 28 hp)
- The main electric motor reaches 65 hp more (141 hp vs. 76hp)
- Eco button to make the climate control less aggressive when the ICE is off.
- 650 Volts vs. 500 Volts electrical system (More efficient and less heat loss through wire)
- The Inverter and the powertrain packaging are smaller
- I suspect, as in the Highlander Hybrid, there will be no more chain used to transfer power. See pics below for comparison.
Prius
Highlander Hybrid / RX400h
That's all I can think of for now.
Dennis
And why shouldnt it go 250,000 miles with care? I will be at 150K in 3 yrs. I'll let you know.
IMA cannot use electric propulsion to help climb a hill while at the same time recharge the battery-pack. That is most definitely a useful ability... one that ASSIST hybrids do not provide.
Whoever came up with the very idea of "Full" hybrid. The originality lies in "parallel" versus "series" hybrid.
That definition has been around for years. The first mention in my logs (webpage 45) is from late 2002, to document the video-clips I had just published with the purpose of pointing out how differently a "full" hybrid operated compared to an "assist".
JOHN
A full hybrid like Hybrid Synergy Drive falls under neither "parallel" nor "series" hybrid. HSD is a parallel-series hybrid.
HSD can utilize both modes depending on the situation. The simplicity and beauty of HSD is that it (computer) transforms and balances both modes using the same Power Split Device. This feature is already built into E-CVT.
When GM announced their two-mode hybrid design, I was puzzled. GM claimed that their two-mode system is better than single mode design. HSD actually has no mode, because it varies and balancing act done by the computer. Then I figured that they were referring to IMA system.
GM design has two statistic modes. One for the city and another for highway. The switch is done by a clutch. One has yet to see how smooth the transition will be.
Dennis
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/hybrid/index.asp
Neither is the hybrid system Honda showcased couple of years ago in a scooter. It is a combination of series (during cruising) and parallel (during acceleration/start up) hybrid, depending on situation.
BUT, I would refrain from using a term like "Full Hybrid", it simply has more marketing connotation than anything to do with technology.
Oh yes I know the same problem is encountered in both hybrid versions of the Accord ,Civic and Lexus GS450H. Any hybrid sedan will have limited cargo space.
That is why I think hybrid hatchbacks like the Prius makes the most sense( assuming an owner values cargo space).
So what is the cargo space solution for the hybrid versions of the Camry, Accord and Civic? I think the perfect answer would be hybrid wagon versions of the Camry, Accord and Civic.
Brian
Not a bad price at all. I wonder what the price will be in Canada?
Congratulations Kydspyder for your foresight in correctly predicting the hybrid Camry MSRP many months ago.
The trunk space of the hybrid Camry at 10.5 cubic feet is about 12 percent less than the trunk space of my small BMW 3 series. And one reason I want to buy a new car is for more cargo space.
Do you have a URL for this?
I was under the impression that the definition of gears had not changed since about the year 1700.
"A toothed wheel that engages another toothed mechanism in order to change the speed or direction of transmitted motion"
There are several such gears in the platetary gearset of the HSD, as can be seen on any diagram.
Or wait for an Avalon Hybrid.
You get room for 5 adults, studly resale value, 40MPG, V6 power, and you have to have 15 cubes in the trunk too? For only $25,900?
Toyota needs to stop screwing you over! This is a travesty.
DrFill
Two highly speculative numbers in your equation. First 40 MPG: If the numbers hold true for the TCH over the other Toyota hybrids. The TCH will probably get real world combined mileage of 33 MPG. Second the base price on a 2007 4C XLE is $25,005. That would mean the hybrid premium has gone down to only $895. Not a likely price difference.
If you get any TCH for $30k the first year I would be very surprised. It will be very limited and that always brings out the "Just gotta have it" crowd.
And a 10 cu foot trunk was a big complaint on the Accord Hybrid. I like the station wagon idea.
"More" is a rather amusing term when it comes to trunk space. The Classic Prius appeared to have a smaller trunk than the bigger sedans. But in reality, it could hold more. The reason was simple, it was taller.
So consider the cargo itself... which in many respects makes the Camry-Hybrid trunk much more practical than the model of Camry just a few years ago.
JOHN
You mean 10.5 cubes for the hybrid Camry and 15 for the non-hybrid. We need to replace my wife's car that can haul both our family and cargo . The hybrid Camry does well with the first need but not the second one. I might as well giving my 3 series to my wife since there is at least more ample trunk space.
Also I am still looking for real world reviews where someone achieved 40MPG on a hybrid Camry.
In fact a Prius really does sound more appropriate for our needs (plus better MPG).
How few years are you talking about? The 1985 Camry had a 14 Cu ft trunk.
Destination/Transportation: $580
Convenience Package (Heated Mirrors, Drivers and Passenger Seat Heaters): $470
Heated Mirrors (stand alone): $30
Navigation System: $1200
Leather Package: $1300
Sunroof: $940
That means a fully loaded TCH with every factory option is $30,390. That makes us dealers very happy and means I will be buying one myself. We have been guessing around $33 or $34K. Also have been told to expect our first ones the last week in May.
That is all of the info I have (except dealer cost figures but I'll let Edmunds release those). Post any questions I will try to answer them.
Brian
So it looks like a fully loaded TCH and fully loaded Camry V6 XLE is about the same price.
I'll take the V6 XLE. Power over mpg for me. Plus, 10 cu. ft. of trunk space is unacceptable in a family sedan.
You probably have a better shot at getting the color you want and a discount with the V6 XLE. The trunk would be a deal breaker for me also. I have big suitcases that barely fit in the LS400.
*HEIGHT* was the subject of discussion, not volume. (That reply is yet another example undermining.)
JOHN
Now we get the press release today and horsepower has magically dropped to 187 and MPG dropped to 40/38.
I'll take those 5hp and more importantly the 3MPG thank you. You can keep the bumper protector and the overpriced floormats.
I bet those 3MPG put a HUGE dent in my Federal Tax Credit... :mad:
I know the disclaimer says that these are preliminary estimates, but I expect more from you Toyota!
Oh, and my outside mirrors better be heated, STANDARD...just like you have been saying all along, including today's press release.
It's priced $500-1,000 less than I guessed.
I would have sworn that you responded to the lack of trunk volume in the new hybrid Camry. The 2005 Camry I rented had a 17 cu ft trunk. Very nice size, so I did not have to rent an Explorer. The 2007 is a bit disappointing with a smaller 14 Cu ft. The Hybrid version is downright small. I realize that a Prius has more room being a hatchback. I cannot get by the looks anymore than I could the Aztek. I prefer elegant lines to chopped up looking cars. The 2007 Camry looks good. It is a shame so much was given up in trunk space. If you feel that is undermining hybrids you are wrong. It is letting anyone that reads these threads, know my likes and dislikes. Not really important except to me.
2005 Camry 16.5 ft3
2007 CE/LE 15.0 ft3
2007 XLE 14.5 ft3 + no fold down seats
I did notice in switching golf clubs between an '05 and '07 today that the trunk opening on the '07 isn't as wide due to the aero curving at the back end. Not a problem, just an observation.
While the Prius isn't as ugly as the Aztek, it is not great looking.
Still don't understand gears. Here is some very basic 101 reading to help you out: http://www.odts.de/southptr/gears/gears.htm
The Toyota Prius does have gears.
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- Debate with Honda, Honda calls the new Civic Hybrid a "full" hybrid. I think Honda might just know a little bit more than you!
Last year I negotiated a price with a local dealer and then ordered an '06 TC with exactly what I wanted. They had a list of what was in the pipeline to their region and if the one matching what I wanted had been on the list they could have steered it to their dealership. It wasn't so they placed the order with Georgetown. Five weeks later it arrived with everything I wanted but the dealer had put down the wrong color code. So I backed out of that deal, and ultimately decided to wait for the 07 TCH. I assume none of that process will apply to the cars coming from Japan - correct?
I don't want to fly somewhere else to get a car, which seems to be an option some people choose.