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His gas mileage on the escape drops off by 20 or so percent in the winter as the battery packs lose a lot of their efficiency in the cold.
I just don't see hybrid gas/electric SUVs working all that well. I am sure there will be several in production for a while but form a practical stand point it seems like diesel or diesel/electric hybrid SUVs would make more sense.
On topic I recently got a new demo as I moved 30-45 minutes away from my dealership. I didn't mind the 13-14 mpg disco when I lived five minutes or less away but I couldn't deal with that fuel bill anymore.
I am driving a little subaru forester and although it is not a subcompact it feels like one to me after driving that disco for so long.
It is a nice little car handles ok although not great. Has great pick up is fairly quiet on the highway and can hold a lot of stuff. Nice little car.
The same reason I would expect these subcompacts to do better than mid-30s (aha! back on topic! ), yet they don't. Am I asking too much? Is it unreasonable to look at a Benz E-class that's rated the same highway mileage as a car two-thirds its weight and size and half its power and think that something is terribly wrong here?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Thats about $5k more than a base Vue and you only get 3 MPG better gas mileage. That means you will have to drive 475,000 miles to break even.
BUT, in terms of this topic, to keep prices reasonable, I'm with you on just using a small diesel in a subcompact.
I agree with that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
First off most SUV can only carry 5, some can carry 7 if the additional two are either kids or circus midgets, and then they have no room for the gear.
Secondly vans can carry more people and gear and gets better gas mileage for a slightly less cost.
Finally last time I ever needed to carry 8 plus all the gear was when I was in the service. I mean for 99% of the time all I need is room for 2 and a weeks worth of groceries. I can't remember a time when someone other than my dog sat in my back seat.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
Thats how I feel about my Elantra wagon, decent pickup handles well and can hold a lot of stuff, plus it gets decent mileage.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm with Andre - when I see that an Accord gets 34 mpg on the highway, I completely lose interest in an itsy-bitsy car that gets 37 mpg.
Then you have plenty of small kids and are cramped in.
A van doesn't have 4x4
You can get vans with AWD. Plus unless you go off roading why do you need a $ X $.
and cross winds are tiresome to deal with.
You also get those with SUV's.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well, but the VUE hybrid comes with the superior and more advanced 2.4 litre ecotec rather than the base 2.2.
Also, the Vue hybrid comes with auto (negative in my book, but not for most :P ), alloy wheels, traction control and abs standard.
By the time you figure in the extras and the tax breaks, the VUE hybrid is a pretty good deal.
Nevertheless, I remain convinced that a little diesel in the next gen VUE would be better from just about every perspective.
There are also a ton of reports out there that are showing that hybrids are getting (in most cases) 30% less than the EPA ratings in city driving (Consumer Reports did a test on this). There are plenty of compacts out there (ultra low emissions at that) that get nearly the same gas mileage for less money.
Rocky Lee,
I have owned SUV's and minivans and my current minivan (Honda Odyssey EX-L) is made for long trips. It is comfortable, easy to get in and out of (love those automatic doors), easy to store gear and luggage, and gets great gas mileage on the highway (I typically get 25-27mpg). In addition, it is loaded with safety features and has more pickup and better handling than most SUV's.
As to the E-class and its 30 something mpg highway we are getting into the law of diminishing returns. Making a car half the size with half the motor of a comparable car is not going to give you twice the mileage.
Another problem is which car to you think had more money spent on it's drivetrain a E-Class that can be 60,000 grand in change or a little subcompact. There is a lot more technology packed into the at E-class or any other mid level to luxury auto then will ever be put in a subcompact. Also the E-class in particular comes in like 40 different version worldwide once you add up all of the different drivelines, engines and sedan/wagon version. That is a lot of vehicles to spread development costs around.
BUT, I still have to marvel at the fact that it gets the same mileage (not even similar ... the same ... 36 mpg) as a little 100 hp 2500 lb economy-mobile.
It really just shows you what a diesel engine is capable of.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
What is the final drive in a E-clas diesel like 2.94:1?
Most subcompacts are in the upper 3 or lower 4 to 1 range. They need that gear ratio to get moving with the low torque of their engine.
The MINI is the best example about how good a sub-compact can be with proper development costs. Yeah a MINI is relatively expensive but you can get a base MINI Cooper for in the 16,000 dollar range it just won't be that fast.
Even my MINI Cooper S was less then 20,000 dollars before I started adding options and it is not like it was a stripper to begin with.
I averaged around 30 mpg lifetime on that car with a lot of hard driving. I had trips where I spent hours at 90 mph plus, some autocross days and some 8/10ths driving one some deserted backroads out in southwest VA.
Even with all of that I still could drop into 6th gear set the cruise at 70 mph with the AC on and get a hand calculated 40 mpg.
I would love to see a MINI with a nice little turbo diesel. It would need 125 or so hp and mid 200 torque to be competive but it would be the best handling diesel around.
Another good example of technology and gas mileage.
A 2004 Discovery was rated 12/16 by the EPA. It had full time 4wd with low range and huge beefy solid axels and weighed around 4,600 lbs. The engine was a 4.6 liter V8 that made around 217 hp and was hooked up to a ZF 4 speed auto. I never got close to 16 mpg with my disco. I think 14 was the highest I ever got.
A 2005 LR3 with the V8 motor is rated 14/18 and 14/19 with the V6. The LR3 weighs between 5,500 and 5,800 lbs depending on options. It has a 4.4 liter 300 hp V8 or 4.0 litre 218 hp V6. A LR3, even a V8 model, will get 20-22 mpg on the highway. I have had several customers tell me this and overall most are averaging 16-17 with mixed city highway driving. A V6 model does even better.
A 100 more horsepower and 1,200 lbs more weight in a longer wider vehicle that drives better and is even more capable off-road equals better gas mileage. It is like fuzzy math.
What make/model of SUV do you put 8 people in for family trips?
Like another poster said, the vast majority of SUV's only seat 5 comfortably, the same number as my Honda Accord.
I suggest conducting an informal test...every time you see an SUV on the road, take note of how many people are in it. Take a guess at how often you see an SUV with more than 3-4 people in it, let along 7-8 people.
Most of these people could be driving a safer, more comortable car that gets twice the gas mileage as their SUV's.
But it seems to me we're moving out of the sub-compact realm...
Sorry if this has already been covered, but if you are looking for small physical size, ability to carry four people with space and leg/headroom, how about a Honda Element? I have two teens over 6' (one 6'5") that rode over 2500 miles this summer in the back, the leg and head room is excellent, plus the seats can recline (if your back end is not full of gear.) It gets a solid 20mpg in town and you can buy it for under $20K.
Makes more sense than some of the subcompacts that are touted, but are really a 2 passenger vehicle. And yes, it is a box, but Honda has used every nook and cranny!
The Element works well for some people - especially those into a lot of outdoor sports.
For most, however, I think the CRV, RAV4, VUE and Escape are better choices.
Well First off saying that its as ugly as sin would be an insult to sin.
Secondly it is very ugly.
Thirdly it is just so ugly.
Oh did I mention its ugly?
Makes more sense than some of the subcompacts that are touted, but are really a 2 passenger vehicle.
Oh I don't know. I have an Elantra wagon and it fits use perfectly. Can handle more than enough cargo and gets well over 20 in town.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Two 200lb men.
Three medium-sized adult women.
One teenage girl.
One six year old girl in a full sized car seat.
One two year old girl in an even bigger car seat.
Sure, there wasn't a lot of room to spare, but I was surprised how comfortable it was with all of those people. As a bonus, the engine didn't seem at all strained with all of that weight.
No suggesting you buy one, just commmenting on what's do-able for say 90% of your needs.
But yes, for lumber and trailering, a subcompact is out of the question----although with a roof rack, you might get some sticks up there---nothing heavy, though.
In Mexico they use mopeds to haul lumber---human ingenuity is boundless!
That begs the question: How does the dog affect gas mileage? How big is it anyway?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With the exception of the really packed cities of the left and right coasts, 'space efficiency' is secondary to plain 'space'. Even in the coasts, efficiency is only valued if you live there. With the existance of suburbs, where efficiency is less of an issue, once again, 'space' triumphs.
Up here in the great white North in Vancouver, suburbs don't really exist as we are fenced in on 3 sides (mountains North, Pacific Ocean West, US Border South). As a result, we are a bit more packed and smaller cars make more sense here.
This is not the case in many other places, and as such, it is unlikely that the subcompact market could realistically overtake the compacts in North America (whereas the Fit outsold the Corolla in Japan the first year it was on sale)
No kidding. I also know that mopeds in Cozumel can carry up to 5 passengers. :surprise:
I thought my wife was going to have a coronary watching a mom with a kid on the handlebars with grandma perched behind her with another kid on each knee. You should have heard all the gasps from the American women on the shuttle bus from the airport to the hotel. About every 30 seconds you could hear all over the bus "oh god, there's another one......".
i do think the safety stats on mopeds would stop the debate on which of the 4 wheeled vehicles are safer.
i will have to say one thing about a subcompact. the FIT is very small. it reminds me of the subaru justy.
anytime i have gotten a quote on a rental for a couple of thousand mile round trip, it was extremely expensive.
RE: Safety -- a slippery slope. Given the dynamics and wide range of accidents, I don't think the supposed lack of "safety" of smaller cars is supported by really good, solid statistics. What I've read are results that are "too gross". In other words, they reflect CORRELATION but not CAUSE and EFFECT.
If someone could do a "regressive analysis" of safety data, and keep eliminating point by point all the factors EXCEPT the size and weight of the car involved in the fatality, I bet we'd be surprised at the results.
I really miss that pup.
The majority of fatal accidents are single vehicle accidents. The I lost control and hit the tree, telephone pole, guard rail, hill, etc.
Size really does not matter much in this instance as you are hitting an unmovable object. What matters is safety cage strength and crumple zones. Now if the car is so small that it does have many crumple zones like the SMART well then you might be out of luck but the SMART is designed to be an urban car so we will leave it out of this.
Body on frame vehicles have poor safety cage strenght and poor crumple zones. That is why when you look at the NHTSB statistics light trucks have a slightly higher fatality rate then passenger cars. Rollovers effect that statistic as well. What you need to survive that kind of crash is a vehicle that will absorb and disperse the energy around a strong enough safety cage to keep you from getting crushed.
In this instance at least size really does matter not.
Sit in a Fit sometime - spacious for four, and so much more substantial than the old Justy.
I now continue on my mission to fight the old stereotypes, now obsolete, that the subs just can't seem to shake.....
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
anytime i have gotten a quote on a rental for a couple of thousand mile round trip, it was extremely expensive
Odd....all the rental places I've ever dealt with offer their cars on an unlimited mile basis for $25-50 a day depending on the class of car. A few years ago, I paid under $100 for a three day, 2,000 mile rental of a compact car and that was the norm pretty much everywhere I checked.
About 13 years ago, there was a girl here at work who had a Justy. I remember changing something on it for her, like the valve cover gasket or something. She took me out to lunch once or twice in it. I could actually fit okay up front, but I just didn't like that vulnerable feeling. I don't think I've ever been in a vehicle, other than a van, where you sit so close to the front of the thing! And it was just so light, thin, and fragile that you could probably get the same effect by taking a golf cart and taping cardboard to the sides to close it in.
Back in college one of my friends had a Ford Festiva. Another little cardboard box on wheels. That sucker was surprisingly roomy inside, but I just couldn't shake that vulnerable feeling.
Those things back then also had tiny little tires on narrow little rims, so they didn't handle all that well either. Plus they were slow, and all that just came crashing down on them, adding to that vulnerable feeling.
Nowadays, we get a subcompact designed from the ground up. Sure, you can't give someone a $25,000 car for $13,000---but as Henry Ford once proved almost 100 years ago, you can give them a well-built, reliable, and very useful car for not a lot of money.
IIRC the Smart has a re-enforced cage for occupant protection. There is a video out there of one being crashed into a concrete barrier on the internet (I think there is a link to it on the Smart car forum) and the cage looked pretty much intact.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And the stigma of a subcompact is clearly fading - half the time I go fill gas or pump air, interested people would ask questions about the car - how it drives, mileage, etc.
Oddly enough though, the Civic is still classified as a subcompact! I think it's laid out more efficiently than cars like the Focus, Cobalt, and Corolla, which are all classed as compacts.
I agree totally that if we ever get a sub compact that qualifies, like the Smart, we will open a whole new can of worms. I also have been to the web to look at crash results for the smart. BMW or MB has a crash test with a Smart and a 5 series size car. It is a offset crash and the smart holds up pretty well, considering the number of times it rolls over,end over end and spins like a top kicked by a small child. It looked like a drop volley at the french open.
shifty... regarding rentals, i always reserve ahead of time.
it doesn't seem to make a difference. maybe i'm renting from the wrong companies.
'brit... if more of those single accident victims wore their seatbelts, the death statistics might be much better.
of course this applies to all vehicle types.
my old bof expedition took/gave a pretty big hit. one of my kids never even woke up until it was about to go on the wrecker. pictures on carspace.
nippon... my only point about the 'fit' and the 'justy' were that they seem similar in size. they are small. this time of year, i spend 90% of my driving time in a ford focus, so i don't fall into the stereotype catagory.
even my suv is mid size. :P
It's not the headroom that bugs me in the Focus, but legroom. Or lack of it. I just feel cramped in it. Both front AND rear. Even with the seat all the way back it felt tight to me. In contrast, I think the Cobalt feels nice and comfy up front, but cramped in the back. The Corolla is a bit cramped up front, but not bad in the rear.
The only small cars I've seen so far where I can truly fit comfortably, both front AND rear, are the latest Civic and the Neon!
I like a stretched out driving position, though. There's a guy here at work who's about my height (6'3") who drives a 2000 Focus. He keeps insisting that I should be able to fit in it. Well yeah, I CAN fit in it. I can also fit into an xA and I can fit into the box my tv set came in. But it doesn't mean I'm going to be comfortable! Different things simply work for different people.