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Comments
More of some things can also be better, i.e. durability, economy, and perhaps power, if not accompanied by a proportional increase in mass. But its difficult to conceive a situation where more mass is better, at least in a vehicle.
In most of the city driving I do, which is DC and Baltimore, it almost seems like they make mass transit as inconvenient as humanly possible. About 3 weeks ago I had to take a training course in Baltimore. I thought I'd be slick and drive to the Light Rail terminal just south of BWI airport and take it in. Parking was free, and the round trip was only $3.20. I have no idea how much it would have cost to park near the Baltimore convention center.
Well, if I had just driven on in instead of stopping at that station, it probably would've taken me about 10-15 minutes to get there. But instead, it took that damn train about FORTY minutes to get there! Actually, now that I think about it, they're doing construction on the parkway going into Baltimore, so it probably would've been a mess either way. Best thing to do here would probably have been to just drive up and catch the train at another station, instead of at the last stop.
Going into DC is actually worse for public transit. If I want to use the Metro (what we call the subway), you have to buy a parking pass in $20 blocks to park your car in their lot. Or drive to a remote lot and catch the shuttle bus to the Metro station. And the Metro ain't all that fast either, once you factor in stops, transfers, etc. I'd say about the biggest problem with DC driving and parking, I've found, is that standard-sized pickups and 1979 New Yorkers don't fit too well in the back alleys!
I doubt if they're nearly as heavy these days, as nobody used V-2 compressors and other similar, mammoth devices these days. And cars already come with integrated duct work, so it's not like they have to add on for the a/c systems.
I always laugh though, when people point the finger at power window motors. I changed two motors in my '79 New Yorker a few years back, and I doubt if the things weighed more than 2-3 pounds apiece. Okay, so there's the wiring and switches, but on the flip side you're doing away with the window cranks. And I'm sure power window motors are only lighter and flimsier these days than they were in 1979. Plus those cheap "tape drive" window lifts, which did away with the old fashioned kind that had the metal grooves and the scissors-type thingie.
Standard A/C might be one reason that many cars have higher published curb weights these days. Back in the day, the published weight of a car was its base weight. So my 2895 pound V-8 Dart actually weighs more, because of its air conditioning. My 1979 New Yorker has a published weight of 3850 pounds, but I don't know if a/c was standard on it or not. You'd think on something that upscale it would be, but in the late 70's a lot of stuff was still optional even on upper end cars.
I remember the published weight of my 1980 Malibu V-6 was 2996 pounds, while a 2006 LT V-6 is around 3350. However, a/c is standard on the new Malibu, but was optional on my '80. So that a/c alone could account for almost half of the weight increase.
And since a/c is standard now even on most inexpensive small cars, that weight has been factored in. And adding 100-150 pounds to a 2000 pound car is going to seem more shocking than adding it to a 3000 or 4000 pound car.
I would fly in to National, walk off the plane go get the metro and take it to Silver Spring. Then the next day jump back on the metro and go up to DC. No rental car, no parking hassles, no nothing.
Previously, I would just stay in DC, flying into National and then taking the metro up to DC by the zoo.
This summer in Boston, we picked a hotel near the train stop and took the train all over Boston. It was a fantastic trip, no traffic headaches(the worst part was the cab ride to the airport from the hotel), no parking fees, no rental car.
When I was out west, I used to jump on the Fremont BART station with my bike, go up to SF and then ride across the Golden Gate bridge for lunch.
Well, it's been awhile since I rode in a BMW, but I do remember it being a solid, sturdy feeling car. This was a 3-series coupe. I forget the year, but I think it was a 2003. It definitely had more of a solid, big-car feel than most cars in the 175-180" range. It was also a quiet car, so I'm guessing it had a lot of sound insulation in it.
In contrast, I've driven my uncle's '03 Corolla, which is about the same overall length as a 3-series, and it just has a cheap, stereotypical small-car feel to it. Noisy, tinny, fragile feeling. Okay, so it's not as noisy, tinny, and fragile feeling as a 1985 or 1975 Corolla might have been, but it still lets you know that it's a small car. In a nutshelll, this ain't something that Toyota's going to be able to successfully badge-engineer into a Lexus!
I would fly in to National, walk off the plane go get the metro and take it to Silver Spring.
Maybe it's better in Montgomery County, but where I'm at in PG County, they just don't seem to make it all that convenient. One of my roommates is from Michigan, and has flown home a few times to see his family. It's always been a lot more convenient to just drive him down to National, and pick him up, than, say, to take him to the New Carrolton Metro (the closest stop to me) and have him take the Metro.
It takes me about 10 mins to drive to the Metro stop. If traffic's not being too stupid, I can make it from my house to the airport in 25-30. And I know it's going to take him more than 15-20 to get from New Carollton to the Airport by Metro! I think my biggest hang-up with it though, is those stupid parking passes they make you buy.
For years, my Dad took public transportation to work. He lives in Riverdale, MD and works Veteran's Hospital in NW DC. If he goes by public transportation it takes about an hour. If he goes by '03 Regal, it takes about 15 minutes. One big factor in favor of private car though, is that his parking at work is free. If he had to pay to park downtown, I'm sure that would be a whole different story.
Which cars are the lightest and safest in the world?
Race cars.
And the most expensive.
Which cars are the lightest and safest in the world?
Race cars.
And the most expensive.
Plus, keep in mind that a race car is designed to hold only one person. Just imagine how much it would cost to design one that could hold 4 or 5 adults with the same degree of safety. AND still be as comfortable as a streetable car!
Some of you know I am a big drag racing fan. And while I may not share that enjoyment with some of you I do tend to read a lot about it. In a article on race engine builders a few months ago I read where is was just as easy and cost the same to build a 565 Cubic inch motor as it was to build a 300 cubic inch motor. Once you get into providing the parts to build the two motors the cost difference was pretty small between the pistons and valves for one as opposed to the other. So what is the "easiest way" to make you heavier vehicle perform? More HP. And what is the easiest way to get more HP? A bigger motor.
The Mini is a case in point daysailor. Yes it is heavier than a xA but it is a better performer in every measurable category except fuel mileage. It will also run circles around a Old Cooper S. Is it more fun to drive? If you like winning the answer is yes. If winning doesn't matter then you get to pick your answer.
Like the people I was talking about in a earlier post. The CRX was a cute little pocket rocket. I am sure many considered it fun to drive. But the fun factor will go up several notches with the addition of a B20A. The Mini is set to get more ponies next model year. Will 175 or 180 HP be more fun than 115? I think you will have to say it will be.
But at the same time, won't a Mini outhandle most larger, lighter vehicles? Presuming they're stock? I thought that's what the biggest appeal of the Mini was...the fact that even in base form with the tame engine, it's supposed to be an awesome-handling car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Alas, to fit the U.S. automotive psyche, it seems I must adopt the perverse view that the Mini offers hundreds of extra pounds of "road hugging weight" (remember the Hugh Downs Ford ads?) without the stigma of low cost.
It does in the US, since subcompacts in the US these days are almost entirely frumpy, torsion beam transportation appliances. No more wishbone Civics or B13 Sentras on the new-car lots to expose the Mini's porkiness, and Mazda has never seen fit to build a 3-door hatchback with the Miata's drivetrain and suspension.
Yeah, it might flex, have an intolerable ride, get too bouncy, or break something! Or bend in an obscene fashion if you jacked it up in the wrong spot. You just never know. It's not automatically a given that lighter weight is going to make a better-handling car. My Gran Fury outweighed either Dart I had, as well as every GM G-body I owned, yet it would outhandle them.
As for those 70's Fords, I think that "road hugging weight" did give them a smooth, isolated ride, which is great if that's your thing, but it did nothing for handling. Having owned more than my fair share of domestic battlecruisers, I never understood what all the whining was about handling and queasy ride until I rode in my buddy's Mark V. Suddenly I understood how some of these cars can make people seasick! Most of my big'uns have been Mopar though, with torsion bars up front and leaf springs in the back. The leaf springs would give a slightly harsher ride and I'm intimate with the term "axle hop", but I never had a car that could make me seasick like my buddy's Mark V!
The Mini we have been discussing and the Scions are a microcosm experiment on the very issues we have been discussing. When the next generation of Mini comes out they are talking about making the 115 HP motor an option with the 150Hp as the standard motor. The S option will get something closer to 180 HP. What option do any of us believe will be more popular? They should sell more 150 HP Minis because that will be stock but I am willing to wager the 180 will be an option far more often picked than the 115. The Scion group is also an excellent indicator. The xA and xB both hit the American shores at the same time. the smallest of the three sells the least. The biggest sells twice as many and the most powerful sells three times as many. The one that sells the most came out last and has the biggest engine and is the heaviest. There has to be a lesson in there somewhere.
So I guess the tC is kind of like what I mentioned earlier, about a type of car that's really built like a midsized car with no overhang, like the BMW 3-series.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'd love to see a tC sedan, because that is a neat sky roof on the coupe but I have no use for a coupe.
-juice
I think this Avensis is a handsome looking car. It pulls off that swollen look with the snapped-off rhino horn better than the Camry does, IMO. Kinda goofy looking from the back though. I think it's the way the tailights wrap over the top, and the round inserts that make it look like a '63 Ford got stuck in there somewhere.
-juice
Yeah, I'm guessing that the sedan and coupe version are radically altered from each other, especially in the upper part of the structure. The tC actually does have a bit of a sedan-like shape to its roof though, like you could get away with just shortening the front doors, moving the B-pillar ahead, and then adding some rear doors. But then I guess you'd get something akin to the old 4-door hardtops the domestics used to make, which were more low-slung and not as roomy as a 4-door sedan, plus harder to enter and exit. It wasn't as noticeable on a full-sized car, but the smaller you got, the more noticeable it was.
I was going to say get rid of those 50's/60's era tail lights and you just might have a nice looking car there.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Zen koan: What is the HP of a MINI when it's not running?
Or, to be less of a wise-[non-permissible content removed], is 71 additional HP worth exactly TWICE the price? That's about $160 per HP...not such a great deal. That would make a Mustang worth $48,000.
Those are two reasons I didn't buy a MINI.
There's a third but I'm not allowed to say :P
It tends to drive me toward the "new & improved" Miata even though it is bigger, heavier, more powerful, more expensive, and burns more fuel of higher octane.
Where is sanity?
I was at the post office the other day, and a Yaris parked near me, but not next to me. Granted, I didn't pull out a tape measure, but I'm pretty sure the Yaris wasn't significantly smaller than my Ion. Maybe it uses it's space much more efficiently, or just looks bigger than it is.
Either way, it didn't appear to be an entire class smaller than my car.
If I am correct, why do I care about what classification either car falls into?
If I am correct, why do I care about what classification either car falls into?
I'd say it depends on what kind of car you have a preference for. IIRC, an Ion is around 180" long, about 10-12" longer than a Yaris. Now to someone who's used to a Yaris, that might seem like a world of difference, but I spent today driving around in a 221" long behemoth of a New Yorker, so to me the difference between ~170" and ~180" is pretty much nil.
However, comparing those two specific cars, I'd say the Ion does feel bigger. I've sat in both. The Ion's seat is lower to the floor, and I don't find it particularly comfortable, but I do find the position better than the Yaris and its ilk, which is more upright, but lacking in legroom, and has a problem with the steering column making me sit bowlegged. The Ion definitely feels like it has more shoulder room as well, which IMO is one of the biggest determinants in how big a car feels. The Yaris is a more space-efficient design than the Ion, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the better car. All space efficiency means is that the car has a generous interior volume when you take into account its exterior size. But that isn't worth a crap if it's not comfortable to you.
To me though, what size a car feels depends on more than just its overall length. There's turning circle, width, how roomy it feels inside (which will vary from person to person), etc.
Also, often there is a blur at the edge of size classes, where one car that qualifies as subcompact might not really be much smaller than another that qualifies as compact. The way they determine size classes is basically a function of shoulder room, headroom, and legroom, both up front and in the back seat, plus the trunk volume. So if you have long legs, you really need generous legroom, no matter what the size class. If you have short legs and a long torso, headroom might be more important. And if you're broad shouldered, shoulder room will be important. Shoulder room can be a tricky thing though, because how close you sit to the door panel is really more important than any published figure.
This isn't to say that my Saturn is superior to another car, but it works for me. Honestly, I don't know much about the new smaller cars. I do know that a similarly equiped Fit, Yaris, or the ilk would not save me any money at all on the initial purchase.
Realize please, that I went to the Saturn after almost ten years of owning Dodge Dakota Club Cab pickups!!
"People seem willing to put their wallets where their desires are and will fork out 20k plus for a Mini. They will not do the same for a Echo or xA or even a Fit. Not with 109 HP."
You are still comparing apples to donuts here. As daysailer continues to point out, the American subcompact market has been dumbed down by decades of crappy little boxes of bolts with really great fuel economy and nothing else, so that most of the subs we have today are designed to offer compelling transportation value but not much in the way of performance, Mini being the notable exception (and drawing buyers as much on its looks and as a fashion statement as for its actual driving characteristics).
You take an xA or a Fit and you make a "type-R" version - strip out some of the sound-deadening and the power accoutrements, lower the weight by 200 pounds or so, then lower the whole car and give it proper tires, suspension and brakes, and you will sell every one at $18-20K, I BET you. But knowing Toyota, we will never see such a Yaris or xA. Now Honda, I have a glimmer of hope for them. Once they get production capacity issues sorted out, maybe they will start to offer better versions of the Fit at a premium. And they would not have to add any power or increase its size to command that premium.
And BTW,I am not sure how demonstrative your example above is, because people shell out $20K+ for the Mini Cooper now, and it only has 115 hp. Clearly it's not the low power causing people to close their wallets, eh?! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"To know a man, one must drive a mile in his xA" (old wise saying)
There are entire German families who spent their whole lives in cars smaller than an xA. I mean, c'mon Americans, get over it.
There are also entire families who spend their whole lives living in a 10x10 room. Can it be done? Sure. But why if you don't have to!
I actually will agree with you though, Shifty, that the xA doesn't need to be any bigger. It's adequate for its target audience, and as long as it sells tolerably well, I say keep it as it is. Besides, if you make it bigger you end up with basically a Yaris or Versa, go a little bigger still and you essentially have a Corolla, Neon, Mazda3, etc.
"To know a man, one must drive a mile in his xA" (old wise saying) Or just sit in one, and if it feels cramped to you, pass on it and get something that fits you better. Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.
That settles it, we should follow the German example. We should all drive small cars (just forget those Germans driving those big Benz's), speak German, drink beer and invade France (oops did i say that?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
there are also entire American families who spent their lives with the father driving a mastdon back and forth to work solo while the wife drove another mastodon station wagon around to run her errands, but I'm not advocating that everybody follow that lifestyle either.
But my friend, what caused then to close their wallets to the Echo? What caused them to close it to the Baja? The problem has never been with the small car advocates. They have always been willing to get a small car. The problem is with the buyers and the sellers. Daysailer's contention is true. They simply stop offering small light weight vehicles at reasonable prices. The ones they do decide to offer are not that small or light or reasonable.
Small cars will have a hard time being considered a success as long as there are statements made that sound like, "it sells pretty well, considering it is a small car." Or it stops and corners pretty well considering it is a sub compact." Cars like the Mazda3 and the Mini Cooper have shed that "considering" image both to the consumer and to the manufacturer. The sub compacts we have today have a very long way to go before they get close to shedding the "considering" image. Can they? Sure, with some more HP and some suspension upgrades. But the Mini has done that and we know what that costs.
And forget the Echo. While I love it for my own peculiar reasons, the only part of that car that was on a par with the current cars was the powertrain - high-mileage, low-cost, and very clean emissions-wise, with VVT-i to broaden the torque curve and reduce emissions further. Inside and underneath, that car was still stuck in yesteryear a bit. This discussion, I feel, is more about the new crop out there, the much-improved (from 10-20 years ago, even from 5-7 years ago in many ways) cars that actually represent the foundation from which will spring an expansion of offerings in this class. xA (to some extent - it is an older model now, due to be retired in a couple short months), Fit, Yaris, perhaps Versa, the new Accent and Rio, cars that are the equal (or better) of their compact and midsize brethren in interior quality, handling, and performance, only in a smaller size.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon my friend, I will give you this. There is a chance people will accept the new larger sub compacts. They can call them whatever they like much like small trucks can still call themselves compact trucks. Call all they want neither Nissan nor Toyota makes a compact truck. The Old D-50, Toyota SR, Courier, Luv, and even the S-10 used to be but they are no longer. They have become every bit as large as the first Dakota. The only Compact truck left is the Baja and it is soundly rejected. The Versa is as big as a Civic or Mazda3. If that is what you mean by Sub Compact then you might be correct. The new breed is different and could be more successful than what we used to think of as Sub Compacts. It is much like telling someone your Rottwieler is a Big Black Lab with brown spots.
Much like daysailer has indicated, you pretty much have to take what you can get. They aren't likely to give you what you are asking for.
This is going more by personal experience than actual published figures, but the Ranger and the Colorado/Canyon still feel like compact trucks to me. At least, I perceive noticeable difference between those to and trucks like the Frontier, Tacoma, and Dakota. IIRC, most of the Colorado/Canyon's dimensions are actually within an inch or so of the old S-10. I think one reason they might look bigger is the beefier styling, plus the fact that most of them are sold these days as extended cab or crew cab models. If you take just a regular, single-cab pickup model, they still seem pretty small to me.
It is kind of a shame that the automakers abandoned the true compact truck, though. They made a great alternative for people who needed hauling capacity but really didn't need the capacity, or bulk, of a full-sized pickup, and they got great fuel economy. By and large, the current crop of midsized trucks really don't get much better economy than the full-sized trucks.
There was a guy here at work awhile back that had an early 80's Toyota pickup that had an extended cab and a long bed. I think they called it a "space cab" or something? I remember him saying that it was a style Toyota no longer offered...you could either get an extended cab or a longer bed, but not both at the same time. It was a neat little truck. He said that he was going to hold onto it as long as it was still giving him good service, since they stopped making them like that.