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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "Wasn't the Iron Duke known for catching fire, so they swapped out and started using a bigger oil filter? "

    From what I remember, the problem with the Iron Duke in the Fiero was they had to fit a smaller oil pan for ground clearance, cutting the capacity down to something like 3 quarts, so if someone didn't watch it, the engine starved for oil and threw a rod, or other unpleasant things :sick:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the Fiero, the old Fiesta, the Festiva, Vega, Chevette, you name it from the 70s and 80s, that have so ruined the rep of subcompacts. They really are a whole different breed today.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Was the old late 70's German Fiesta that bad of a car, though? I don't recall hearing anything negative about them. I heard they were supposed to be fun to drive. My neighbors had one back in the 80's. Now admittedly it looked like crap and had a 2x4 for a bumper, but it also had close to 200,000 miles on it by the time they retired it for a CRX around 1990. It seemed to wear better than the similar vintage Corolla wagon they had. They also had one of those prehistoric early 80's 4runners that was essentially a pickup truck with a bunch of mix & match parts, and that really didn't seem to wear all that well, either.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I wasn't thinking so much of reliability as of the quality of the new product. Subcompacts from back then screamed cheap everywhere you looked, had ZERO equipment, were cramped and noisy inside, and were the slowest and worst riding cars on the market.

    Most of those characteristics have been wiped out of existence with the new breed of subs.

    The German Fiesta was guily of many of these faults, although it supposedly had great handling and could get out of its own way. That's just based on what I have read - I never drove one. I liked the looks.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I remember even in the 80s when the base models of some sub-compacts had vinyl seats, 4 speed manuals, and no right-side mirror. They pinched every penny they could.

    To this day some don't have A/C standard.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I remember even in the 80s when the base models of some sub-compacts had vinyl seats, 4 speed manuals, and no right-side mirror. They pinched every penny they could.

    That was a lot of cars back then, not just subcompacts. My first car, a 1980 Malibu, came standard with a 3-speed manual, although mine had the extra-cost 3-speed automatic. No right-side mirror. And the vinyl interior was an UPGRADE over the standard cloth, if you can believe it!

    Back then though, they did have different grades of vinyl, and some of them were actually pretty nice. They'd still burn the hell out of you in the summertime, and if they had those metal buckles in the design they could brand you too, but at least they looked nicer. Similarly, they had different grades of cloth and velour, as leather was still a bit of a rarity.

    Nowadays, I think vinyl is pretty much extinct as a seating material, although I guess there's still that MB-tex or BMW's "leatherette". Actually, there's a "leatherette" option on the Chevy Aveo that is actually pretty convincing. I have to admit it had me fooled into thinking it was the same thing, until I noticed that it just didn't seem to crease just right when you sat in it. And then I saw the window sticker, and saw it was fake. Still, pretty impressive that they'd offer something like that in an entry-level car.

    These days, it seems like a luxury cloth is history, too, as the nicer trim levels usually have leather standard.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    I test drove a Corolla around '83-'84 that had vinyl floorboards... :surprise:

    My '82 Accord hatchback had no right-side mirror... That was a dealer installed option, that I kept saying I was going to get... When I sold the car, twelve years later, it still didn't have one...

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  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My dad was always one of the buyers of the stripped-out Civics.

    Some I remember...

    1991 Civic "Standard" Hatchback. No radio, dealer installed A/C. Manual Steering. Vinyl Seating.

    1993 Civic DX Hatchback. This one had a radio! It was june-bug green and a great-looking little car.

    1995 Civic DX Coupe. Fire-engine red. A zippy little car considering it had 103hp. Manual steering mixed with a manual started giving him hand cramps as he pushed close to 40.

    All of these little cars were BASIC but got the job done!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Wasn't dealer-installed a/c a common thing with Japanese cars in general, and Honda in particular, until fairly recently?

    How do little cars handle without a power steering assist? I drove a '68 Dodge Dart V-8 for years with a failed power steering pump, which is probably worse than manual steering because the ratio is different, and when that power stuff fails it seems to fight with you. It was definitely a tricep builder in parallel parking situations, but in most driving, it wasn't that bad. Seems to me most lightweight cars these days could forgo the power steering, but I bet the public would have a fit if they did.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The first car I ever "drove" was my granddad's 1987 Civic Wagon (not the AWD model) which had manual steering. He loved it since he did 90 highway miles a day; said it handled much better than any car with power steering he's ever driven.

    To this day, he liked how that car drove better than his 1999 Nissan Frontier XE 4-cyl 5MT which replaced the Civic 6 years ago; the Frontier has power steering.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Civics probably went well into the '90s with dealer-installed air on the cheaper models.. My '82 Accord was without A/C.. it was a dealer-only option..

    The only problem with small cars and no power steering is FWD.. My Accord had manual steering, and it was definitely a 2-handed operation in parking lots... Once under way, no problem, of course...

    I think Aveos still come without A/C..

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  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Yep, both my '79 Scirocco and '83 GTI were manual steering, along with manual everything else. Parking took a little muscle, but the steering response under way was great.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    You still had power brakes, though.. :)

    Yeah, manual windows/locks are no problem, if you can reach them all while driving... ;)

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  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    I forgot about the power brakes - those seem to have become standard everywhere when, 1970? :confuse:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I think power brakes pretty much became mandatory once cars started using front disc brakes. I've driven a few cars with manual drums, and it's actually no big deal, but I've heard that disc brakes without a power assist practically require a body-builder to stop the car.

    In fact, just to show how little effort it took for drum brakes, I once had a 1967 Chrysler Newport, with a 383-2bbl. Probably weighed about two tons. Manual drum brakes. I never thought it took much effort to stop, but even more telling, the previous owner was a little old lady who had been driving the thing since 1971! If a petite little old lady can stop a two-ton, manual drum brake car, anybody could!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    How do little cars handle without a power steering assist?

    Absolutely fine thankyouverymuch. If the wheel is hard to turn, its because the tires were low on air. I think it was a great feature that when someone would whine about the wheel being hard to turn, their tires were 5-10 psi low.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Civics probably went well into the '90s with dealer-installed air on the cheaper models.. My '82 Accord was without A/C.. it was a dealer-only option..

    The only problem with small cars and no power steering is FWD.. My Accord had manual steering, and it was definitely a 2-handed operation in parking lots... Once under way, no problem, of course...

    I think Aveos still come without A/C..


    It STILL is on Civic DX models. A/C isn't factory until stepping up to the LX. It has power windows, tilt/telescope wheel, and ABS w/EBD.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Civics had factory air available by 1990. Also, dealer-installed A/C isn't the horrible aftermarket kit it was in the 70s, at least not at the Honda dealer.

    I had a '75 Corolla with aftermarket A/C, because in those days it wasn't available from the factory. The aftermarket air quit after only about 3 years, if memory serves.

    Today, A/C is standard on Fit and Yaris, as well as Aveo sedans. Apparently, there is a "special value" Aveo 5-door that does not have standard air, but it IS standard on the LS. There is also one trim of three of the Accent that does not have standard air.

    I only WISH you could still get a car without power steering. I would. The last model I know of was the Echo coupe, which could be had for $9995 without p/s, through 2005.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I only WISH you could still get a car without power steering. I would. The last model I know of was the Echo coupe, which could be had for $9995 without p/s, through 2005.

    Why in the world would you not get power steering? Do you remember how many turns lock to lock manual steering was? In fact with the electronic power steering I don't see what the downside would be. With todays cars power steering, Power windows, and air seem pretty much standard. With the exception of some of the sub compacts mentioned.

    It seems that cars were designed as a tool for transportation. Through the years our tools are supposed to be easier to use and in most cases that is what has happened with cars. I can't remember the last time I saw a new car without power windows or a radio and CD player. Even in a small car without power windows the back windows are simply out of your reach as are the rear door locks if you have rear doors.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Why in the world would you not get power steering? Do you remember how many turns lock to lock manual steering was? In fact with the electronic power steering I don't see what the downside would be.

    Road feel, I'd imagine, would be the major bonus of nonpower steering. Heck, I remember when the pump failed on my '68 Dart, the feedback just seemed SOOOO much better, and I swear that car felt a lot more responsive. Okay, so it sucked on the occasion that I had to parallel park it, and if I worked my triceps really hard that the gym, I'd feel the pain driving home. :P

    As for electronic power steering, isn't that even worse? I've driven a few cars with it, and I swear my '79 5th Ave has better road feel! And that's from an era where they tried their damndest to isolate the driver from any feel whatsoever!

    As for power windows, I guess on a smaller car where you can reach across, they're not that critical. Just going from personal experience, I'd say the maximum might be '57-58 inches of shoulder room. My '76 LeMans coupe has around 60" up front, and I'm thankful it has power windows, because that would be quite a stretch. The only reason I can reach across my DeSoto's roughly 62" is because it doesn't have seatbelts, so I can slide over a bit if I have to. :surprise: My Catalina is like 62.5, and I can't reach over there if I'm belted in. My truck is an almost sofa-like 65", and thankfully, it has power windows. Now my Dart's only about 56", my Monte and Cutlass were maybe 56.5", and my Malibu was around 57.5. And they were all reachable.

    One issue though, is the cranks themselves. On the few cars that still have them, they're fragile, tiny little plastic things mounted very awkwardly, so they're just not that easy to grasp. And the lift mechanisms aren't as sturdy as they used to be, so they compensate by making you have to crank the window more times to get it up or down. More turns of the crank equates to less force on the lift.

    One of my friends used to have a 1998 Tracker with crank windows, and I think it took like 7-8 cranks to get it all the way down. In contrast, my Dart was more like 2 1/2, although to be fair, it also had smaller windows.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Bingo, andre got it. Road feel.

    And parasitic losses from the p/s pump if it's hydraulic.

    And higher costs down the line for maintenance and repair.

    The tool may be slightly easier to use with p/s, but is it better? I would submit, sir, that no, it is not. ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I only WISH you could still get a car without power steering.

    It's optional on the smart fortwo, and the manual rack behaves just like a good manual rack should: no noteworthy effort with regular driving, but it tightens up nicely when you get up and whip it through a turn. :shades: Having 155s up front does help, though I do intend to try out 175s.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I am so glad there is still at least one model out there. With a vehicle as light as the Smart car and 155 or 175 tires, power steering is just a waste of money and needless extra weight.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    '83 gti. wish i had one now. it would still be a fun car.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    '83 GTI - yes, lots of fun, I had it '83-'96, never had any major problems. Best thing was you could drive it hard and not get a ticket. Try that in a new one -you'd be doing 100 in no time!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Uh.. sorry.. power steering is better.. :)

    And.. andre nailed it on the power brakes... Once they started using front discs, you really needed it.. Ever hear this? "My car died, and then my brakes failed.." Most people have no idea how much force is required to actuate disc brakes..

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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Uh.. sorry.. power steering is better"

    Not on a small car, it isn't. Not a chance. On your average minivan or SUV, sure it is. They have zero handling or road feel anyway, so what difference does it make?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I guess it is better now that even small cars weigh close to 3000 lbs. That's more an indictment of the weight of modern cars than of power steering. I've had a couple cars without power steering, and I never missed wished they had it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I guess it is better now that even small cars weigh close to 3000 lbs. That's more an indictment of the weight of modern cars than of power steering. I've had a couple cars without power steering, and I never missed wished they had it.

    I guess once you factor in the more radical weight distribution of FWD, that tends to exacerbate things, too. For instance, according to Edmund's, a 2008 Honda Civic DX stickshift coupe has a base weight of 2586 lb. The base weight of my '68 Dart, a V-8 hardtop, is something like 2895 lb. Now I dunno what the weight distribution is for each car, but I think 63/37 is typical for a FWD car, while 56/44 is probably typical for an older RWD car. So, presuming those figures, I get the Civic having 1629 pounds on the front axle, whereas the Dart has 1621.

    Now, I dunno how much my Dart actually weighs. It has air conditioning, power steering, automatic, and dual exhaust, all of which would add weight. Technically, I think even an AM radio and speaker were optional! So, maybe 3200 lb? That would put 1792 pounds on the front axle...163 more than the Civic, but I dunno if that's a huge difference.

    As for steering types, does one take more effort to operate than another? For instance, would a non-power rack and pinion require more effort from the driver than the old recirculating ball type?

    Bigger tires will also create more friction, and more work. My Dart originally came with skinny 14" bias ply tires. I had 205/70/R14's on the front. The Civic DX has 195/65/R15's, so in this case, there's not much difference. And a Civic EX gets you into 205/55/R16's. Back in, say, 1980, most full-sized cars were just running 205/75/R15's, while your typical little car was probably on a 145, 155, or 165 series. I'm embarrassed to say that the standard tire on my '79 New Yorker and 5th Ave was a measly 195/75/R15! :blush:
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I wonder if the days of 17" wheels and tires on subcompacts is coming to an end. The extra weight and rolling resistance couldn't be helping fuel economy. Big wheels and tires are an inelegant solution to handling anyway.

    My '86 Porsche is a great handler on 215/60/15s. For that matter, my first car, a '78 VW Scirocco, was a great handler even on stock 175/70/13s.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "For that matter, my first car, a '78 VW Scirocco, was a great handler even on stock 175/70/13s. "

    Same here, I put a set of Phoenix Stahlflex (stock size) and Boge shocks on my '79, and it handled quite well. Big wheels are not necessary.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    A lot less weight riding on those tires, though... As andre1969 noted... cars are very, very heavy in relation to the past...

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  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm willing to bet the Sciorocco on 13s weighs at least 500lbs less than a VW compact today, therefore wouldn't utilize the bigger wheels as much as some of the small cars of today which are getting quite heavy.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Wow, great minds think alike, eh? (7731 and 7732).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    When I was a teenager my dad had a 68 Fairlane with a 289/3 on the tree. It was a stripper car, nothing but a radio. Manual steering and brakes, along with a stiff clutch. I hated driving that car, it was a real workout for a car of its size. But I guess having to be alert enough to maneuver the car does keep you awake and aware of your surroundings - no nodding off.

    At the same time he also had a 60 Ford Country sedan, it had power steering but manual brakes (I am pretty sure). It wasn't a problem to drive, even with its huge size.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "Great minds"? OK...we'll let that slide :P You both are right, of course, new GTI is what, 3100 lbs? More like an 800 lb gain (OUCH!). So wider tires would certainly be needed, but you could do well with 15" or, at most 16" and save some weight.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Yeah... my '84 911 had massive 16" tires.. :)

    200 hp... but, of course, under 3000 lbs..

    I think after 16", it's mostly for looks... and, of course.. any econobox could get away with 15" or even 14" (but, I think they are doing away with 14" tires).

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  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    '78 Scirocco = 1950 lbs
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, I know the Rabbit has wheel offerings from 15"-18". On the subcompact topic...

    The Fit has 14" wheels, with 15" on the Fit Sport. The Versa has 15" wheels on all models (Alloy on SL, steel with covers on S). Does the Yaris offer anything other than 15"s?
  • podredpodred Member Posts: 127
    Honestly, I am an AVID signal-user. Every lane change, every turn, even pulling into parking spots at the grocery store, I use a blinker. In cases like this though, other people's lack of courtesy means using one is lane-change suicide, because heaven-forbid, the car leaving the space will be 2 seconds later to their destination.

    On the interstate, if you give me a blinker, and are enough distance ahead of me, I'll always flash my lights to "wave you in," because you've used common courtesty as if to say "may I?" I wish more people used this logic.


    Great Post! I could not agree more.

    It's seems that drivers "suddenly become aggressive " when someone needs to move into their lane, no matter how much in advance we activate our signals, the poor insecure morons simply "must" be ahead of every car possible. In many cases it's reflected by the number of dents and scrapes on the body of their car.

    This is why I like to jokingly say, "there is a passenger that just happens to be behind the wheel". Here's a person busy, talking on the phone, eating, grooming, looking at the person in the passenger seat while carrying on a conversation, anything but paying attention and actually "Driving" the car.

    Pretty Scary If You Ask Me..... ;)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I swapped two of the tires on my '79 5th Ave the other day. I had some worn-down Firestone Firehawk 235/70/R15's mounted on 15x7 wide offset copcar wheels. Just for kicks, I stepped onto a bathroom scale with one of those suckers...51 pounds. It now has these more sedate 225/70/R15 whitewalls mounted on 15x7 road wheels. Probably heavier, actually than the copcar wheel because the copcar wheel has slots cut out in it. Anyway, I stepped onto the scale with one of these...49 pounds.

    So, in swapping two of these out, I saved 4 pounds. Not much I know, but I'm surprised that going to just the next narrower width actually saved that much. Also kind of amazing to think that on a car this size, with its 3850 lb base weight, that just the wheels and tires make up about 5.2% of that. I'd imagine many smaller modern cars still have wheel/tire combos that weigh that much, if not more. 200 pounds worth of wheel/tire on a 3000 lb car is 6.7%. And on a 2500 lb car it would be 8%. Heck, on a 2000 lb car it would be 10% of its weight, but I doubt if too many people are putting that heavy of a wheel on a 2000 lb car...if you can even find a 2000 lb car these days!

    I wonder how much weight I'd save if I went back to the stock, skinny 15x5.5" rims with their 195/75/R15 tires? And I guess since the weight on your tires and wheels is rolling weight, sprung weight, or whatever they call it, it's more significant than losing a few pounds somewhere else...like if they made the doors thinner or whatever.
  • podredpodred Member Posts: 127
    If the wheel is hard to turn, its because the tires were low on air. I think it was a great feature that when someone would whine about the wheel being hard to turn, their tires were 5-10 psi low.

    Precisely!

    And the other added benefit was the upper body workout, if ever so small, compared to today's over assisted steering!
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Wheel and tire "fashion" vs fuel economy is a topic that I have been interested in lately. When I went from the stock 14" steel wheels to 16" alloys with plus-sized tires on my Tacoma, my fuel economy dropped slightly. (I don't have my spreadsheet handy, but I think it was about 2%).

    I think that as people become increasingly alarmed with ever-increasing fuel prices, there will be a real business opportunity in "fuel-saver" wheel/tire combos: relatively narrow, very light, aerodynamic wheels coupled with low rolling resistance, high pressure tires should be able to save 4-5% maybe?

    Would they repay their cost? Probably not. ;)
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    If automakers could put smaller wheels and tires on a car and market it as a fuel saving measure rather than a cost saving measure, people might buy into it (and leave the steamrollers for Corvettes where they belong).
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The big difference is RWD vs FWD.

    I have an old 4Runner. Manual steering, of course(power is not so good off-road, actually). It was in the shop because they stripped out the oil drain plug and had to re-tap it - idiot mechanics!. So they gave me a rental.

    Now, mind you, this is a Chevy Cavalier/Cobalt with FWD and power steering. My 4Runner is 1000 lbs heavier and RWD with big mud terrains on it. The Chevy took twice the effort to steer!.

    If all the front wheels have to do is steer, you never need power steering. The Smart is RWD, btw, like a proper car should be. And it does fantastic without the power nonsense.

    Also, 13 or 14 inchers are more than any car short of a Porsche needs. Modern tires are far better than even a decade ago and as such, you don't need 16 inch tires on a Civic. Also, I should add - that higher profile tires wear better and give a much softer ride around town. If I had a choice between standard 14s and low profile 16s, I'd get the cheaper and better riding 14s every time. I'd even be tempted to put higher performance 13s on a Yaris. Even 14s are overkill for car that small.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Also, 13 or 14 inchers are more than any car short of a Porsche needs...I'd even be tempted to put higher performance 13s on a Yaris. Even 14s are overkill for car that small."

    I couldn't agree more. I would add that overkill in tire sizes is related mostly, I am convinced, to the looks of the larger rims: they fill the wheel well more, make the car LOOK more sporty than it actually is.

    And BTW, to answer an earlier poster's question, yes, the base Yaris does still come with 14" rims and 175 tires. However, the way Toyota is building them is mostly with the "convenience package", which replaces the 14" rims with 15"ers and 185/60 tires. What the different rims have to do with "convenience" is a question that only Toyota can answer...

    :confuse:

    Despite the fact that most of today's subs are FWD, I would still prefer manual steering to power - they are light enough that the RWD/FWD thing doesn't make a whole lot of difference to the steering. I long for the day when automakers make weight reduction a genuine priority in car design.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Also, 13 or 14 inchers are more than any car short of a Porsche needs.

    Well, you do need them to clear the front disc brake rotors on the bigger, heavier cars of today which people expect to stop in the same distance as an unladen Yaris.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Well, you do need them to clear the front disc brake rotors on the bigger, heavier cars of today which people expect to stop in the same distance as an unladen Yaris.

    Just out of curiosity, how large of a diameter is a typical good-sized brake rotor these days? More than 12 inches? I was just thinking that my '57 DeSoto only has 14" wheels, yet they got 12" brake drums up in there, so they can take a tight clearance. But a disc brake caliper, since it overlaps the rotor to clamp down on both sides, is going to take up more space.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Most of these small cars use 10-11" rotors MAX.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    there are lots of variables with tire sizes. tire rack is a good place to compare revolutions per mile. when i went from the goodyears to michelin, the michelins record about 2% under. it's one of the things i try to figure out when i am on a long trip. a 30 or 40 mile run gives you a pretty good idea.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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