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Comments
Without getting too far off track, did you know that Consumer Reports only surveys it's subscribers for vehicle reliability?
It is a critical, unacceptable flaw in their method of sampling.
Why are CR surveys flawed? I have been a subscriber for over 30 years and have bought
most of my vehicles based on their surveys.
I purchased 9 vehicles based on their surveys
and everyone of them turned out to be trouble free just as their survey suggested.
Maybe I should say that the last vehicle has
been trouble free for the 19 months I have had it. That is really not enough time to say that it will be as trouble free as the other 8.
The rest of the vehicles were owned for from 5 to 24 years.
I feel very comfortable taking their recommen-
dations. From my experience they have been dead on in accuracy.
OkieScot
most of my vehicles based on their surveys
I agree with you!
In my opinion... Subscribers to CR tend to actually be concerned about the reliability of various products.
They are used to reading the reports and are possibly better able to take an unbiased survey without emotion. :shades:
Kip
most of my vehicles based on their surveys
Vehicle owners in the general poplulation do not have an equal chance of being represented in the data. CR limits the population of the sample to subscribers. The data set is biased and pre-determined to the demograpics of subscribers of CR.
The problem is not the survey, the problem is who is surveyed.
I believe the St. Paul plant is scheduled to close this calendar year.
That is my point.
CR has quite a few subscribers. They are people that like to know which particular product in a particular segment works best. They are the best people in the world to ask questions of.
If you sent out 10K Surveys at random to the general population you will get back a very small percentage. Send it out to people who are "IN TO" wanting the best bang for the buck and you will most likely get back a higher percentage of the surveys and most likely the people are a bit better informed as to what they are doing.
A prime example of informed and uninformed is this:
We had a 95 Maxima. I took it if for one of those services where they rotate the tires align the front end and so forth. All went well, but when I got home there was a phone mail asking me to call the Nissan service dept. They told me that the tech that did my car had discovered that his Tool for torquing the wheel lugs was set wrong , could I please bring it back so he could check the lugs. I did and the tech re torqued the lugs. Another time a tech somehow broke the oxygen sensor on the same car.
If my wife had taken a survey she would have said we had 2 things go wrong with the car. I knew the problems were caused by the people working on it. So I would have said that nothing had gone wrong. I was thankful that they caught the problems and fixed them.
The data set is biased and per-determined to the demographics of subscribers of CR.
I don't see how the surveys are biased.
If a question was asked, "Don't you think the transmission is more troublesome in Explorers than in Hondas"? that would be biased.
When it says "Have you had problems with the any of the components of the drive train?" and the transmission is one of the choices; How is that biased?
How do demographics fit into the equation?
Kip
Kip
That is a basic concept, that if I remember correctly, was explained in "Elementary Statistics" and was covered in depth in "Linear Models and Experimental Design" which were both 200 level classes.
Just doesn't change my mind!
Kip
I don't think there is anything that "wildly" skews the results(much less demographics for instance) , just due to the nature of the topic and simplicity of the survey. There are weakness in their methodology for sure, as in all surveys, (limiting to their subscribers to keep costs down etc, ) but no deal killers. (Ie. asking all white voters what they think of AL Sharpton)
Demographics for a Democrat or Republican? Yow! For pure opinion polls its all demographics
Demographics for "did you have any transmission repairs for your Cadillac?" still there... (older buyers tend to be less (more?) picky etc I think CR tries to take this into account too) but with 310000 readers (responses?) and enough samples to reduce the variance of the result per vehicle (note that some are not rated, with not enough responses to the survey) you still have one of the more useful tools out there.
CR (weren't they the first to do this? in the early 70's?) may be one of the reasons that the # of defects between the best and the worst has been shrinking for the last decade or so. Ironically if anything it is this that may be making the survey less meaningful.
It was one of the first resources one could go for for perspective, with data from thousands (not the futile, ask your neighbor and folks at gas stations how they like their car) long before the www was even dreamed of.
There's nothing that skews the data in CR enough to make it useless or even limited usefulness. To point out that it isn't perfect isn't meaningful.
Happy Hunting
--jjf
I fail to see what you are talking about with the demographics. Judging from the variety of vehicles that are surveyed it looks like there are people who drive just about all of the cars
made to allow CR to include them.
I know quite a few people who are CR subscri-
bers and believe me most of them could not be grouped in any particular fashion. Most of my friends have more money than I do and buy nicer cars more often than I can.
Most of us do not have the same hobbies, care for the same sort of recreation, etc. So I do not see us as all being in the same demographic
category.
I have purchased not only vehicles recommended
by CR, but also many appliances and electron-
ics. I have seldom ever purchased anything they recommended that did not turn out to be satisfactory.
Granted the surveys are taken from subscrib-
ers but then as a subscriber it suits me just fine. You can purchase CR without being a subscriber, but it looks like if you buy it then that would put you in the same category as
the subscriber because of your interest.
I still fail to see a problem.
OkieScot
OkieScot
Unfortunately
I didn't mean to start a debate on magazines.
A test drive vs Tacoma, Frontier or RL will show that quickly. The fact that they are competitively priced makes a bad situation worse. Reviews in Consumer reports, Edmunds, etc will tend to reinforce this. I agree with the previous post that it fails to keep up with the Silverado in quality or sturdiness. That said its probably outselling each of the others by 2-5:1. Its getting by on its good looks. (I like the exterior styling the best of them all.. Once again GMs sheet metal comes to the rescue)
I haven't driven the I4 model but after driving the I5 I fear it.
--jjf
Anybody have any opinion on the revised engines going into the Colorado/Canyon (2.9L I-4, 3.7L I-5)?
Of all these trucks posted I can't decide which is the 'least a truck' the Honda Ridgeline or the GMC Colorado/Canyon.....
I use to get 18-19 city and 23mpg highway(65-70mph)with my '95 GMC Sonoma 4x4 5sp. I fail to see that the I5 betters this.
And now to add insult to injury GM no longer offers the 5sp with the I5...... :confuse: :sick:
But if you read about what what one of the popular magazines said why they choose it as 'Truck of the Year' was that Honda wanted to redefine what a truck is. That's ok if this is what you want.
I got grief from the guys in my hood for buying my Nissan Frontier. They called it a 'grocery getter'. I replied with two statements. The first was, 'I'll drive/buy what ever you want me to, just make the payments......
And now that gas has been hitting the $3/gal when do you want me to drive you to take you to buy your groceries because your 'full size' GMC is getting too expensive to drive....
I'll agree that the VTEC Ridgeline isn't a truck engine; it (the original 3.5)was designed for the Acura RL sedan back in the 90s, and made its bigger debut in the 1999 Odyssey, where it produced 210 hp and 229 lb-ft of torque.
The GM 3.5L I-5 and 2.8L I-4 were supposedly the 4.2L I-6 from the Trailblazer/Envoy twins, with a cylinder lopped off.
I think a couple of people missed it when I mentioned the increased engine size of the Canyon/Colorado.
Old figures were 2.8L I-4 w/175hp, 185 lb-ft@ 2800RPM, 3.5L I-5 w/220hp @5600RPM, 225 lb-ft @2800 RPM.
From the GM site:
Engine: Vortec 2.9L DOHC I-4 engine with 185 hp and 190 lb.-ft. of torque (Standard on 1WT, LS, Regular and Extended Cab 1LT and 2WD Crew Cab 1LT models)
The Vortec 2.9L DOHC four-cylinder engine delivers 185 hp at 5600 rpm and 190 lb.-ft. of torque at 2800 rpm.
Engine: Vortec 3.7L DOHC I-5 with 242 hp and 242 lb.-ft. of torque (Standard on 2LT and 3LT models; optional on 1WT and 1LT models)
The Vortec 3.7L DOHC I-5 engine delivers 242 hp at 5600 rpm and 242 lb.-ft. of torque at 4600 rpm.
From the Honda site, you can see that the power peaks are similar on the larger engine GM and the Honda:
Horsepower @ rpm (SAE net, Rev 8/04) 247 @ 5750
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm) 245 @ 4500
I could not find EPA numbers on the revised GM engines, though I did try.
"I'll agree that the VTEC Ridgeline isn't a truck engine; it (the original 3.5)was designed for the Acura RL sedan back in the 90s, and made its bigger debut in the 1999 Odyssey, where it produced 210 hp and 229 lb-ft of torque."
The original 3.5L engine used by the Acura 3.5RL in the 1990's is not the same J35 engine used in the Ody, Pilot, Ridgeline, MDX, and the new RL. That first 3.5L unit is based on a very old racing engine.
The J35 used first in the Ody is an enlarged version of the 3.0L and 3.2L engines used in the Accord and Acura TL.
Point still stands, I guess; the Ridgeline engine is a van/crossover engine; moreso than a true "truck" engine. It's still more than sufficient at hauling and accelerating.
That makes the whole truck vs non-truck distinction a little pointless, don't you think?
I guess that makes the Frontier not a truck.
:-)
I have a frontier, by the way. The engine is dandy.
MarketWatch Tacoma and Frontier
It (Colorado) still lags behind what is probably the best small truck, the Nissan Frontier, but not as far back as before.
Frontier and Tacoma are still the best.
I believe you did!
If we went a bit farther and eliminated everything that looks like a truck but uses or used a car engine, there would be very few trucks left.
Let's see now. The ever popular Ford full size Pickup with the 300 Cubic Inch inline 6 would be a truck, but the ones with the small block V8 would not actually be a truck. :confuse:
Same with the rest that share(ed) car engines with truck models, pretty much across the board. :sick:
The quality is better than the Frontier, equal to the Toyota, blows away the Colorado, and has a ride like no other. Despite being bigger and wider the turning radius is smaller than both the Fronty and Colorado.
Was torn between the Frontier, and then the Tacoma, but after 2 weeks with the RL couldn't get myself to do it as deals were comparable. The Awd capability will be adequate for about 90% of buyers.
I think the best small truck is the Ridgeline. Its bigger, drives like a smaller vehicle, ride and quality is great and the trunk is neat.
My real 4wd vehicle is 12 years old and with suitable modifications and the obligatory dents and primer spots.
Those of you with the stock 4wds new out of the box and $30000 in payments thinking you are doing real off roading are kidding yourselves.... or have money to burn. The real macoy would produce at least $5000 in body damage the 1st year.
Love the Colorado's styling, but would have to get $9000 off list to make it worthwhile. The concept of the i4 4cylinder in a 4000 lb double cab configuration is also a bad joke.
Happy Hunting
--jjf
It (Colorado) still lags behind what is probably the best small truck, the Nissan Frontier, but not as far back as before.
Frontier and Tacoma are still the best.
Anymore details my friend? Believe me I've driven all the trucks and the Tacoma and Frontier are clearly better, by a longshot!
Ya know, it IS ok for some people to choose a vehicle for things like better driving dynamics and a more comfortable interior. It doesn't make them wrong. Shoot, I'd pick the Ridgeline for its clever 8+ cu. ft. lockable in-bed trunk and smart tailgate design. Something nobody else in the class offers. I travel to the beach often, an along with the normal two or three passengers, we usually have a couple of laptops. The Ridgeline is the only vehicle you could carry the laptops outside of the cabin and be sure that they are safe from water/theft. That's worth a lot to a lot of people.
Each has it's pros and cons. Where the Tacoma or Frontier May have a bit longer bed with the double cab configuration, they do not have the interior room, plushness, or ride of the Ridgeline.
Add a sealable aftermarket bed trunk and the Toy and Fronty beds shrink quickly. Then try increasing the interiors.
Whats important to one person is totally unimportant to another.
Kip
the in bed trunk sounds good, unless you plan on using your truck as a truck.
i had this choice to make back in 2005 and i chose the 2005 Toyota Tacoma X-runner. i work out of my truck, installing window coverings, so i carry a ladder and many boxes every day, nothing at all heavy, but some long boxes and odd shapes. i have no need for 4wd (i have a '91 4wd pickup if i ever go offroad) the X-runner is the best handling truck on the market at any price. at the drag strip i've raced and beaten a 2005 nissan frontier extracab SE v6 manual by 0.5 sec in the 1/4mile (may or my not be the driver)some people like the composite bed and some don't, i love my bed, even if it was a $2,000 option i'd still get it over a metal bed. the tie down system is top notch, i've always got a place to tie down everything and the in bed storage that the tacoma has gives me a great place to put rope and bungees so i always have them handy. the in bed power outlet is nice, but not needed, the only time i use it is if i want to charge my drill battery while driving to a job.
the tacoma was and still is the best truck for me, when not working it's great to have a nimble and quick truck around town.
The Ridgeline's bed is the same length as the SB models of the others. Practically longer because of the heavier rating of the tailgate. Frontier introduced a 6ft bed for 07? great.
Yeah, if I were going to spend 26000 for a work truck, I would probably go with a Tacoma. But I won't spend 26000 on a work truck, as I drop cinder blocks 5 feet into the 12 year old Silverado, or the trailer I have for that sort of thing, or hauling dirty gravel. Maybe the delivery man gets a workout now and then.
RL will out turn all the small trucks except the Taco even being 5inches wider. I do understand, despite its odd looks, why they gave it Truck of the Year Award. Much more manueverable (and cheaper) than the Avalanche.
Maybe with the AWD I can pull some of the 2wd Taco's out of a snowdrift or something. Or maybe just call a towtruck for ya.
This is just silly to get defensive as owners of the king of the work trucks (the Silverado and F series) will claim all the Taco, Fronty, Colorado and Rl owners don't have "real" trucks anyway. And then why the Silverado owners are stupid not to have the F-250, or vice versa, ad nauseum.
--jjf
has one huge problem with the ridgeline, the spare tire is in the 'bed trunk' i'm sure not too many ridgelines get used as trucks, but what do you do if you're driving with 10 sheets of plywood in your truck and you get a flat? pull over on the side of the freeway and unload everything from your bed just to change your tire then load everything back into your bed? godhonda forbid you're carying a load of rocks of something like that, you'd have to get your truck towed because you can't change your tire.
the in bed trunk sounds good, unless you plan on using your truck as a truck.
i had this choice to make back in 2005 and i chose the 2005 Toyota Tacoma X-runner. i work out of my truck, installing window coverings, so i carry a ladder and many boxes every day, nothing at all heavy, but some long boxes and odd shapes. i have no need for 4wd (i have a '91 4wd pickup if i ever go offroad) the X-runner is the best handling truck on the market at any price. at the drag strip i've raced and beaten a 2005 nissan frontier extracab SE v6 manual by 0.5 sec in the 1/4mile (may or my not be the driver)some people like the composite bed and some don't, i love my bed, even if it was a $2,000 option i'd still get it over a metal bed. the tie down system is top notch, i've always got a place to tie down everything and the in bed storage that the tacoma has gives me a great place to put rope and bungees so i always have them handy. the in bed power outlet is nice, but not needed, the only time i use it is if i want to charge my drill battery while driving to a job.
the tacoma was and still is the best truck for me, when not working it's great to have a nimble and quick truck around town.
2007 Ford Ranger 207 hp 230 lbs ft torque 3.4 L V6 4A
2007 Honda Ridgeline 247 hp 255 lbs ft torque 3.5 L V6 5A
2007 Dodge Dakota 230 hp 290 lbs ft torque 4.7 L V8 5A
2007 Nissan Frontier 261 hp 281 lbs feet torque 4.0 L V6
5A
2007 Toyota Tacoma 236 hp 266 pounds feet torque 4.0 L V6 5A
Here are the tow ratings
Ranger 5000 pounds
Ridgeline 5000 pounds
Dakota 7000 pounds (if V8 engine equiped)
Frontier 6500 (if V6 4x4 engine equiped)
Tacoma 6500 (if V6 engine equiped)
thats all for now.
* this artilce was typed fast so there may be a mistake
It can only tow 4,000 pounds - weakest in the class.
GM decided to make a fool of themselves and put a neutered I6(lopped off a cylinder). I heard that the reason that HAD to do this was because the frame was sourced from ISUZU(another company on life support). So when it came time to use the I6 it was too long for the ISUZU frame. Solution......hack off a cylinder and you have an I5...... :sick:
Just another example of, "it's good enough mentality".
GM tried to pull the wool over the GTO admires by putting the GTO name on a Cavalier look alike. The sales were slow with the first intro so their solution throw more horse power and a hood scoop. :confuse:
As we can all see the GTO was a flop :sick:
I can understand and fully appreciate your points. For a truck that is used as a daily loaded work truck the Ridgeline spare tire location is anything but ideal. Especially if constantly visiting work sites where flat tires are possibly a real issue.
On the other hand, the everyday serious work truck is probably not the market Honda is aiming at. I would think that 90% of "TRUCK" owners will use their trucks more like cars most of the time, with the occasional trip to Lowes, H-Depot, or the Shrub nursery. The young soccer players can throw their muddy gear there and yet there is still a (non intrusive) water tight lockable tool box for tool box stuff. In most any other truck the tool box is going to sit in the bed and take up space.
Last time I got a flat, a can of "Fix-A-Flat" and the portable cigarette lighter powered air pump handled the problem. That was probably the only Flat in our family of 3 cars over a 5-10 year period.
For a purely work truck I would choose the Forty or Toyota. For a Part time Truck/Full time Family Vehicle, the RL wins by far.
Kip
Use caution on when using any liquid tire repair solutions on a vehicle equipped with TPMS systems. All of the 07's being compared have TPMS and many of the 06's.
Also, make sure repair shop is notified of the TPMS system to prevent damage to the sensor.
The sensors are very expensive and fix a flat type chemicals are said to possibly damage the sensors. At least that is what the TPMS manufacturers say.
The sensors are EXPENSIVE to replace.
Thanks for the heads up.
That happened about a month after putting new tires on the old standby 78 Chevy Van. Spring of 2000. Original wheels. A 29Ft camper was attached at the time. Noticed it at a rest stop at near midnight. Except for one 18 wheeler in the truck area we were the only ones there. Just didn't seem like a good time to disable the vehicle.
Tires are still on the van. Although all 4 are beginning to show stress cracks on the side walls. When should the corrosion start showing up? :confuse:
Kip
A lot of people who buy truck don't buy them for day-to-day use, they buy them to work hard; to tow that boat to the lake in the mountains; to haul those building materials to the worksite; to tow their old classic car on a trailer. For these times, discs are simply better at resisting fade.
And no, I did not race through water puddles.
On occasion I would be trapped in a lane on the interstate and couldn't go around the puddle.
I much prefer the disc brakes under most circumstances.
OkieScot