Stories from the Sales Frontlines

bdr127 · March 2006

In addition to Golic's litany of sorrows:

1) People who set up an appointment to drive your car and don't show up.

2) People who "test drive" the car with NO INTENT to buy.

3) People who cannot come up with the cash for the vehicle so you sit there for 2-3 days.

4) The person who buys the car and then harasses you when a minor problem arises in a car with 150k miles.

Sounds like what salespeople at dealers go through every day.... :P

biancar · March 2006

I'm a female, and I've always sold my cars myself. I haven't traded in a car in all my car-buying and selling history, going back to 1975. Never had a problem of any sort. I always asked for a certified check.

Sometimes I met people near the DMV office, so we could do the title transfer easily. My cars were always both well-maintained and paid off, so there weren't any issues of trying to get the title transferred on a non-paid for car. Usually I sold to one of the first people who showed up in response to the ad, as the cars were always priced fairly (less than dealer prices, more than what I would have gotten on a trade-in) and again, were in good condition, so they were a good deal for the buyers.

jimbres · March 2006

With all due respect, I think that you're making this more difficult than it has to be.

In my neighborhood - a middle-class NYC suburb - plenty of folks are looking for an affordable & reliable 1st car for their about-to-reach-driving-age offspring. We also have 50-something guys shopping for a station car so that they don't have to leave their precious Boxsters in the railroad station parking garage. If you have a well-maintained vehicle that you're willing to sell for $10K or less, you can find a buyer within 2 or 3 days - simply by letting it be known that you're ready to sell. There's no need to pay for ads or deal with strangers. My experience has convinced me that the demand, at least in my area, for realistically priced good used cars far exceeds the supply.

Now this may not hold true for you if you live in a sparsely populated area or if you're looking to get rid of something that's pricier, but I can't help suspecting that my experiences aren't unique to my area.

I'm not saying that I'll never again trade in, but I won't offer my car to a dealer without 1st seeing what the local market will pay me for it.

jipster · March 2006

Couldn't agree more oarsdad. I've sold all the vehilces I've owned private party and haven't had a bit of problem. One only exercise caution and good judgement. Where a lot of private party sellers make a mistake is pricing their vehilce to high. Then they end up with all the problems listed above.

On your 2001 Ody, as an example...it has a $13,000 trade in value and retails at $18,000. If you had placed an ad in the paper and listed it as $14,000, how long do you think it would last? Probably a day or two, and you selling it to the first or second potential buyer...with little effort or cost, you come out ahead $1,000(forget the $200 detailing, do it yourself)

snakeweasel · March 2006

I always asked for a certified check.

You may not believe this but I have seen certified checks and money orders bounce. In both cases it was the issuing orginazations blunder that caused it to happen and they made good on it, but they bounced just the same.

bdr127 · March 2006

I always asked for a certified check.

You may not believe this but I have seen certified checks and money orders bounce. In both cases it was the issuing orginazations blunder that caused it to happen and they made good on it, but they bounced just the same.

There's also the recent "trend" of fake bank checks... conterfeit or forged....

british_rover · March 2006

Yup just cause a check is certified funds does not mean it cannot bounce.

Once I clear some more stuff off my desk I will continue my story and add another.

stickguy · March 2006

For an older/cheaper car, selling private makes the most sense. Dealers don't want it, so the really low ball (usually), plus the tax savings are neglibible. And they are usually paid of (title in hand), and most people can scrape up the cash.

On newer/more expensive cars, it is less clear. They can be harder to sell (you are competing against dealers now), you often have to deal with a payoff to get a title, buyers have to finance, and the sales tax credit is more significant.

I have sold many cars myself, and traded in 3 (I think). Most expensive private sale was about 10.5K (a Miata), couple others about 8K.

In each case, the deal made sense. A Voyager that they offered way more than I expected (as much as i would have listed it at private) which I didn't want to do since it had "issues"

My tC made sense, because i got high end trade value, and I doubt I would have gotten much more private, certainly not enough to offset the 1Kish tax savings. Plus having to deal with all the people that needed a loan, etc.

I also traded in a maxima, largely because they offered more than I expected, although I really should have tried to retail it 1st, but I didn't have time at that point.

In other cases, I got a trade offer, it was too low, so I sold it myself.

Each deal is different.

oarsdad · March 2006

geo9,

running to the bank to pay off
the balance of loan you may have, waiting for a new
title or release of lien, putting up with the joyriders,
strokes and looky loos.

I had not thought about the loan payoff and release of lien. All of my cars have been paid for when I sold them, but obviously that is not always the case. As for the joy riders, that's one of the things I would put up with for $300/hour (in my example).

My guess is the number of joy riders one would get is in direct proportion to how fun the car is to drive. If true, then us minivan sellers are probably immune from the joy riders.

Thats where Mr Dealer comes into play and EARNS that $$$.
He can provide full financing, warranty, etc.........

True enough. I guess the dealers don't care much for my type given I have no trade in, don't finance through them, and purchase my cars at invoice.

Even though they make money on the trade in's - Last month I had a Toyota salesman strongly encourage me to not trade in my Camry. He said to put it in the paper and it would sell in 1-2 days.

David

qbrozen · March 2006

If you had placed an ad in the paper and listed it as $14,000, how long do you think it would last? Probably a day or two, and you selling it to the first or second potential buyer...with little effort or cost, you come out ahead $1,000

You're forgetting the tax penalty and cost of the ad. So now you're down to ~$150 for all your time and effort.

and that's exactly the point I was going to get to with the first poster. First of all, you're example uses a Honda Odyssey. VERY few cars are as in demand and easy to sell. Second of all, the KBB values mean absolutely nothing. We need to look at the real-world market.

If you are a savvy shopper, you can easily get a vehicle from a dealer for $1500-$2000 over wholesale (ie, trade-in value). SO, on a typical vehicle with a trade-in value of $13000, you could get that from the dealer for $14,500 ... but let's say $15000. I'm not a dealer, I don't have the exposure, I don't have the resources, I don't have the ability to back my products. As such, I must be cheaper than a dealer (hence, private party value). I find that PP and Retail differ by about half the profit. SOOO... that leaves a price somewhere around $1k over trade-in value ... maybe $1500 if you're lucky.

As stated above, once you subtract advertising, detailing, signage, tax penalty, blood, sweat, and tears, I do not find it worth it when dealing with a more expensive vehicle. ON a cheaper vehicle (let's say under $10k), its a different story.

mac24 · March 2006

Sadly, I think it's because it offers the path of least resistance. I don't think that the average reader or poster here is representative of the average car buyer.

It's just my opinion, but I think the average customer is interested in only two things.........1: how much new car can I get for the lowest possible monthly payment?....... and 2: how quickly can I get it?

A 'trade in' represents the easiest and quickest way for most people to get behind the wheel of that shiny new car! :shades:

oarsdad · March 2006

golic,

I think you are too cavalier over the safety issues

It was not my intent to brush off safety as a "female only issue". In fact, now that I think about it, your safety point and the fake payment issue are the two on your list I would be the most concerned about. However, for me, I'm willing to take those risks. Like snakeweasel said in post #412, it's ultimately up to the individual.

I'm sure if I had ever had a safety scare when selling a car I would transform to being a "trade in'er". I think its similar to when your wife is pregnant. There are a million things that can go wrong but, most of the time, they don't.

to put up a forum for how to sell your car on your own...I think the information would be invaluable

I agree. It would be a good way to get some ideas on safety during test drives(short of carrying Mr. Smith and Wesson)etc..

David

oarsdad · March 2006

jipster,

Actually I sold it to the first customer who came by for 16K, so I ended up 3K ahead, minus the sales tax credit I didn't realize($780) = about $2200. I realize, like gbrozen said in post #424, the Ody is easier to sell than some other vehicles. For me, with this particular vehicle, it was a no brainer.

David

oarsdad · March 2006

I appreciate all the responses. They have helped me understand the opposing side of this topic.

Thank you,
David

qbrozen · March 2006

Congrats on the $16k!
You did OUTSTANDING! I don't know where you live or the details of your vehicle, but an '01 Ody EX with average miles (~60k) is only an $11k-$11.5k trade-in here in the northeast.

oarsdad · March 2006

Thank you. It was clean, miles = 39K.

David

kdhspyder · March 2006

You identified the basic concept perfectly. There is about $3000 difference between trade-in and retail. Each person makes their own calculation whether the $3000 is worth the effort.

It's one of the most basic capitalistic concepts in our business world - whichever party does the work should get the benefit.

You sell it - you get $3000 less costs
You trade it - the dealer gets $3000 less costs.

kdhspyder · March 2006

The posts about straw purchases brought back one of our best stories ( not a great ending ) that should have been on one of the 'Dumbest Criminals' show.

Young guy & his father trade a 5-Series Bimmer into us on an SUV. The Used Car Mgr, does the normal walkaround and drive and runs the VIN through CarFax. All clean. The transaction is done on a Saturday when it's JAMMED.

Monday we put it through the shop on a Used Car PDI and whoaaaaa!!!! The VIN on the dash doesnt match the VIN on the engine.... or the VIN on the frame!!!! This vehicle was assembled in plants all over the SouthEast. :surprise:

Well we call the guy, but lo and behold he suddenly shows up back at our store on Monday to get something he forgot in his Bimmer. 'Could you hold on, sir while we get the vehicle ( Call to Fraud Dept of the State Police Barracks 600 yrds away )'. The showroom is swamped by 4 cruisers and 10 officers. The alleged perpetrator is taken away for questioning and his SUV is left in our lot.

That night his father comes by and demands to collect his SUV which he signed for and financed properly. Whatever issues we have with his son and the allegedly chopped Bimmer ( father was not on the BMW title ) has nothing to do with him and he wants his SUV now. We dont give it to him but a few days later his lawyer does come and collect it. We are out $15000 which was the trade-in value.

Do not attempt this at home. These are trained professionals on a closed course.

bigdveedubgirl · March 2006

One Last Story.....

When I sold VW, I sold a car to a lady who bought it with fake info. She bought a Used Beetle and brought her son with her, and even let us take a picture of her with the car!

Well, once we found out that her social was fake, and her down payment check was on a closed account we, attempted to repo the car. My General Manager wanted to save some money so he had US take the parts truck to repo the car, and we went to the hotel she was supposedly living in. (She was on the Lam and even her family gave her up) We did not see the car, but we went to her door and try to just get the car back and we would not press charges. I sat in the truck because I really wanted nothing to do with the whole deal, and the son answered the door and sicked a pit bull on my coworker.

Then we found out From the Pasdadena Auto Theft Task Force, that she was part of a Auto Theft Ring. They caught her, the Beetle had already been chopped, and we proscuted and she got 3 years in the POKEY!!!

bdr127 · March 2006

Call to Fraud Dept of the State Police Barracks 600 yrds away )'. The showroom is swamped by 4 cruisers and 10 officers. The alleged perpetrator is taken away for questioning and his SUV is left in our lot.

I realize that the car was made up of many different cars' parts, but to play devil's advocate and to give them the benefit of the doubt.... they could have just bought the car like that from someone else and not have known. I mean, someone else might have been the "evil doer." :confuse:

If you were rather naive and didn't know anything about cars, I'm sure you could have bought a car from a private party or mom-n-pop lot like that.... and then get burned later like that customer.

kdhspyder · March 2006

This was the father's contention... and ... that he had nothing to do with the Bimmer at all. But the son was in possession of 'stolen' property ( at least one part of it was stolen ) so he had some answering to do. I don't know if he got charged or was prosecuted.

golic · March 2006

Well, not sure if this would qualify as "bumbest criminals" especially if the son got off.

If the son got off, looks like the dealership got had for the 15k?

british_rover · March 2006

Ok so when we last left our punks they had just cussed out and flicked off our finance manager and myself then peeled out of the parking lot in their 22 inch dub equipped escacrap with enough chrome on it for a 58 buick to step up and say, "Hey buddy get a little taste there ok."

For the uninitiated into the ways of the punk a Dub is a big freakin wheel so big in fact that the vehicle probably does not drive right anymore but that is ok cause you look as Paris Hilton would say, "so hot". They used to be anything 20 inch or larger but I think now you have to be at 22 inch or larger to qualify for Dub status. Spinners are a different type of wheel, although they are normally large as well, that have a separate spinning section in some special design.

But back to the story...

So we have our good laugh and then talk with service about it for about 10 minutes before getting back to work. It is a friday early afternoon so not much going on. I am just catching up on paperwork and making phone calls and emails.

About 30 minutes or so after they leave our F&I guy gets a call from one of his former employees who is now a manager at one of our other stores. Our original complex of three dealerships houses our main buisness offices along with the offices of the company directors and owners. Anyway just to simplfy things we will call my F&I guy Bob and his former employee Jack.

So Jack calls Bob and starts telling him what happened when our two punks came screaming into his dealership screaming that they want to talk to the owners and they want us, meaning me and Bob, fired for not letting them test drive a car and discriminating/disrespecting them. Unfortunately for them the first person they ran into was not just Jack but one of the owners cousins as well who knows both Bob and myself very well. After they actually hear the story from these guys mouths it is all they can do to keep from laughing and just booting them out of the showroom.

After they try to explain to these guys that once a car has a deposit on it it is considred sold and is only driven, at the most, two more times before delivery. Once by the salesman to fill it up with gas and a second time by one of the techs to make sure everything is working fine.

Sometimes the tech will fill the car up with gas for us so then it is only driven once.

These guys just don't get it and when they see another sport, not a supercharged one by the way but just happens to have the 20 inch wheel option, sitting back by the body shop they demand to know why they can't drive that one and why is it hidden way over there. I guess they did not notice that it had real plates on it and shattered rear spoiler where the wife of one of my customers backed it into an overhang.

Jack and the cousin just look at these guys and polietly escort them out of the building. Once they get them outside they tell them in no uncertain terms that they are never welcome on any dealership property ever again and to please remove themselves from the property post haste or they will face the police.

Stay tuned for my next story about my client who just got arrested by the FBI.

thebill · March 2006

Happy New Month everyone!!!

Good Luck!

geo9 · March 2006

ROVER...For us "old" folks... 22s are "dubs" and 24s are "twennyfos or jordans"...............LOL!!!!!

Keep those stories coming too..........
The 2 part ones are the BEST and keep us on the "edge"!
Our old pal Mackabee used to thrill us with them but
rarely visits us anymore..............

jsylvester · April 2006

One other issue to consider is I don't get rid of a car unless it is unreliable, or old and worn out.

If it is old and worn out, I will private party those, as the expectations of the buyer is the car is old and worn out.

However, if the car is something I don't want to drive, I certainly don't want to sell it to a private party, and have them hassle me a month or two later over some repair issue. With the nutjobs out there today, who needs the hassle or risk? NOt to mention, if I disclose, "The car is a piece of crap", who is going to buy it?

mikenilona · April 2006

Hello,

I'm currently in the Military stationed in Utah, yet a resident of Pa. I'm in the market for a new vehicle and I've located one at a dealership in Pa via emaymotors.

A friend of mine told me that if I go and purchase the vehicle in Pa and have it registered in PA then I will not pay sales tax. Is this true. Also, does it matter which state I have a license in?

jlawrence01 · April 2006

Whereever you buy a car, you will end up paying tax in teh state where it is registered.

For example, I live in Illinois, and buy most of my cars in Ohio. When I pick up the car in Ohio, I pay NO sales tax to the state of Ohio. When I go to register the car in Illinois, I have to write a large check to the Illinois Department of Revenue for use tax.

This week, I moved a fleet car from Missouri to Illinois. I had to write a big check for the USE tax on the remaining cap value of the vehicle I transferred.

In other words, there is ***NO** free ride. If there was, everyone would deal with out of state dealerships.

bdr127 · April 2006

In other words, there is ***NO** free ride. If there was, everyone would deal with out of state dealerships.

I personally don't know anything about it, but I think he was referring to his military status....

snakeweasel · April 2006

The major difference is that this person is in the Military. Different states have different rules about that. When I was stationed in Alaska I got some type of tax preference for being a non resident but buying and registering the car in Alaska.

british_rover · April 2006

Our F&I gets a call from our bank representative asking what is going on with our boy _____.

This particular customer just signed a 5 year note for a close to 100k dollar Range Rover.

Our bank rep was browsing the local news site when he sees a name that catches his eye. Clicks on the story and realizes it is the same guy who just bought said Range Rover. He was just arrested by the FBI for every version of fraud in the books including but not limited to; wire, bank, mail, tax.

He calls us hoping that maybe it is a different guy with the same name who just happens to live in the same town. After reading the article we realize nope it is the same guy.

The bank is just a little bit nervous right now.

thebill · April 2006

I think we should have a prices sold forum...so we could stretch some numbers like they do.

black_tulip · April 2006

The bank is just a little bit nervous right now.

Don't worry about them, they have got all kinds of credit derivatives in their portfolio.

So this guy had committed all this fraud and nothing showed up in the credit report? Not even a bounced check?
Amazing.

british_rover · April 2006

Oh he this was his fourth or fifth Range Rover from us the second he has bought from me. It is always a time consuming process getting him approved but it it always happens in the end.

bolivar · April 2006

"It is always a time consuming process getting him approved but it it always happens in the end."

Then the bank deserves to worry.

rroyce10 · April 2006

... **Oh he this was his fourth or fifth Range Rover from us the second he has bought from me. It is always a time consuming process getting him approved ...**

It could even be an issue of identity theft ..... one of the dealers I know in DC just signed off the 3rd Benz in 30 months to the "same person" ... right ID info - wrong face, wrong person .l.o.l...

Terry.

jipster · April 2006

...with the spotlight on YOU Mr. or Ms. car salesperson.

I caught the tail end of a t.v commercial a couple days ago talking about a new reality t.v show featuring car salespeople. The "contestants" who sell the most and scores the highest in negotiation skills moves on to the grand prize. Green peas get squashed. Anyone have a date and time on this program? I want to see what you guys are really like.

Reality t.v never lies ya know.

bdr127 · April 2006

I caught the tail end of a t.v commercial a couple days ago talking about a new reality t.v show featuring car salespeople. The "contestants" who sell the most and scores the highest in negotiation skills moves on to the grand prize. Green peas get squashed. Anyone have a date and time on this program? I want to see what you guys are really like. Reality t.v never lies ya know.

Interesting.... You know that for ratings sake, they'll get the slimiest guys as possible.

Nice and honest makes horrible TV. :P

dad23 · April 2006

Not sure if it's the same one you saw, but have the DVR set to start taping this one: King of Cars :shades:

robr2 · April 2006

That would be it.

http://www.choppercars.com/realitytv.html

Not exactly the type of place I would shop. Then again, it's Vegas baby!!

jipster · April 2006

Thanks dad. That sounds like what I saw. It is a reality show...but not like "Survivor". The series takes an "inside look" into one of the most succesful car dealerships. The leader of the sales team is "Chop" who "will say or do anything" to keep his team on top.
Comes on tonight at 10p.m on A&E.

robr2 · April 2006

IMHO, it's not going to be reality - it's going to me a circus. For some reason I doubt that's the typical dealership. I think it's a screamer ad type of place.

jipster · April 2006

...was an entertaining, energetic t.v show. The show seemed like an accurate portral of what it would be like to work at a car dealership(though thru the eyes of its owner). Didn't portray the salesmen as sleasy or underhanded, but highly motivated, charasmatic and hard workers.

But, I can't say I cared for the high pressure methods they use in selling cars. Having 5 or 6 salespeople standing in front of the showroom window scanning the horizon for "prey" would scare(put) me off. One salesmans persistence in not letting a customer walk off the lot paid off in a sale. One gentleman came in with his wife and baby...with a budget of $300 a month. He left with a $430 a month payment but seemed happy about it. An older gentlemen, at the end of the show, looked beaten(literally). He just signed for a truck at $700 a month. Which he didn't "appear" that he could afford. None of the customers shopped price...they just wanted a low monthly payment. Many though ended up biting off more than they could chew.

stickguy · April 2006

this month's issue of car & Driver had a piece writtem by a salesguy (probably Ex by now). Very interesting expose of one particular sale (lease), and the hoops they had to go through to "rip off" the buyer. Some interesting points made about the psychological aspects of the process.

guss · April 2006

it also and thought it was very amusing. I don't know if it was a good cross section of buyers but as Terry always says , most people are payment buyers.

When the program would show the monthly payment,I figured the new cars were at least 5 year loans and the used was a 4 year for the PT Cruiser(@$320/mo.).

The Durango seemed to be the car the salesman were steering everyone towards because of the high rebate financing would be easier.

As far as the car salesman prowling the lots, I agree that is very anoying.I stopped at a dealer like that once. Two salesman and the girl greeting everyone pounced on me. After my free bag of popcorn I had to beat my way to the door to get out.

oregonboy · April 2006

What a deadbeat!!!

You ate the popcorn, you were obligated to buy a car. :P

james

bobst · April 2006

After he had to climb up on the roof to get his keys, he figured it was only fair to swipe a bag of popcorn.

jmurman42 · April 2006

I started in the car business with a dealership that had very similar characteristics. The show last night was entertaining I thought. The fellow who bought at $700 per month on a $22K truck needed proof of residence, phone bills etc...you know the interest rate was stout to say the least, but hey...he had to have his truck, right?

The couple with the kids that bought the Charger for $439 w/10K down, needed to get out from under their Jetta, so I'm sure there was negative equity...but they had to have the HEMI, right?

I didn't see anywhere that some one asked..."Whats your invoice?" or "How much holdback is there?" I'm sure there are those who would ask those questions, but I don't know how far you'd get with those type of questions.

Has anyone here that lives in Vegas ever been to that dealership?

cluedweasel · April 2006

"but highly motivated, charasmatic and hard workers."

That explains why I didn't last!

mark156 · April 2006

You must tell some stories when you were working at the Infiniti dealer! How long were you there?

Mark

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