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Stories from the Sales Frontlines

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  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    a couple years ago I asked the question about "no haggle pricing"

    I remember you asking and I like the concept of "no haggle pricing".

    Since my original BMW dealer doesn't believe in discounting much and since my new one has started playing around, I would definitely prefer a no haggle dealership.

    If a new dealership came along and gave me 4 to 4.5% off on the new car, and gave me fair value for my trade in, I would definitely be interested.

    I think it would be of more interest to people who don't know too much about the car buying process, and people who just aren't knowledgeable about how to negotiate buying a car. To come out ahead the average person would have to find a way to level the playing field.

    Good for you for giving it a try....and making it work.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • verdugoverdugo Member Posts: 2,286
    If you knew the dishonesty of some "activists" you would be shocked.

    Oh, I'm not shocked. I wouldn't expect anything less from them.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    The pricing has become a science....and certainly a work in progress every day. On new cars I truly treat the car as s commodity. Push volume, hold higher prices on high demand cars and new models. adjust prices based on days in stock. We can have two exact cars but one has been on the lot for 90 days and the other 3 days & the 90 day one will be less. I adjust prices 1-3x per month. Used cars pricing is not driven buy cost up, but retail market pricing. If I overpay for a car I can't expect to wait around for the one guy who didn't do research and hope he comes along and buys it... I price all my used cars to get them on page 1 of used car websites like autotrader/cars etc...My cost plays little or no role in market pricing. I have had cars that I overpaid and from day one priced at a loss. These prices move up and down often. Thanks to the massive amount of live information we can access it gives me a great snapshot of the market conditions in my region.

    Yes, we have had people storm out...car buying often comes with a lot of bravado and the third base coach looks bad when they can't get a huge discount for the buyer, even if our price is less than other similar cars. but all it takes is a shifty experience at the next dealer and they come right back. Most people buy from the place that makes them feel comfortable, not always the lowest price. The guy who wants the lowest price on the planet isn't probably going to buy from me but that is only a small percentage of buyers. OTOH, treat the customers respectfully, offer a fair price without typical cardealer dog & pony and make the process easy and simple. The grinder might save a few hundred or less at the next dealer after 4 hours of back and forth, closers, hiding the trade keys etc...I have found that the grinders usually give a bad survey, never return for service, never come back and buy another car, never refer a friend, etc...so they have little long term value to the dealer.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    One of the biggest features of the concept is everyone pays the same. Nobody wants to find out the guy next door paid $1500 less than you did for the exact same car on the same day.

    Very few people are "good negotiaters" and even less have the experience to read the opponent. Despite what many of the edmunds folks believe, most consumer have no idea what is a fair price. They do lots of research to find the right car and nothing to find the right price. We eliminate that concern. I love watching the look on a shoppers face when the salesperson pulls up the prices of all the cars and says pick out the one you want, here are the prices...and the s/p say's something like "I bet you never had a cardealer make it this easy before, how was the last dealer you went to?" hahahaha.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    My S.O. would love your store.
    He bought at Carmax last time JUST to avoid the haggling, even though he knows he overpaid. Ironic, as he works for a sales organization, but the idea of even making an offer that isn't the asking price, and then getting a counter-offer, doesn't work at all for him.

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  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,854
    I never understand why people don't like to negotiate. I'll negotiate anything. If you don't ask, you don't get.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    Tell me about it!
    We recently put in an offer to buy a house. He was feeling bad about going in with an initial offer that was 6-7% below their asking price, and the house has been on the market for nearly a year! I was like, no way, you at least have to ASK.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I'm glad this is working for you.

    Our store had a lot of newcomers whose cultural differences made them only focus on PRICE! That is ALL these people cared about and they certainly didn't mind the grinding process.

    And you are 100% correct about grinders. They were never happy and the only time they came back to our Service Dept was for warranty work. Once the warranty was over we rarely saw them again.

    And they did give lousy surveys and were about as loyal as a tomcat.

    Stiil, I'm happy it's working for you. Seems like it would be a nice place to work.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    bought at Carmax last time JUST to avoid the haggling, even though he knows he overpaid. Ironic, as he works for a sales organization

    I was once told salespeople are the easiest people to sell to. They cave in quickly because they know what sales are like.....and they like to be as fair as possible to other salespeople.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    Our store had a lot of newcomers whose cultural differences made them only focus on PRICE!

    My first BMW dealer was located in one of the most affluent cities in Canada, so they didn't seem to have a problem getting full MSRP for their cars. The people in that city aren't going to drive for 20 minutes to save a few $1000.

    The second dealer I bought from has a mixture of various nationalities and cultural group. It seems the people who live in this town never pay full price for anything, and it is actually in their nature to want to haggle...just to accept a given price is almost like an insult.

    So, I would imagine the location of a "no haggle dealership" would make a big difference.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • gogiboygogiboy Member Posts: 732
    audia8q--

    Back in 2010 we bought a Scion xB to replace my wife's Rav4 that was demolished in an accident. At the time I remember not being very enthusiastic about the established no-haggle model since I had negotiated what I felt was an excellent deal on a a one or two year-old used Rav4 at an out of town dealership. However, I know that I wouldn't have bought a Toyota from our local dealer because they simply refuse to compete with the bigger city dealers. At least with Scion I had no problem buying locally since everyone pays the same mark-up. Since we had no trade it was extremely straightforward and there was no financing as we paid cash for the car.

    I actually like doing research and negotiating, but I'd be fine with a no-haggle process if it was transparent and legitimate.

    I don't know whether no-haggle contributed to Saturn's demise, but I read that in 2012 the entire Scion line sold half as many cars as just the Rav4, which makes me wonder if the concept is flawed or is it just about undesirable cars. Scion seems to have ignored their original plan to introduce new models with much greater frequency while other manufacturers have sped up new model introductions and that can't be helping.

    We also fall so far outside their projected demographic it's embarrassing.

    Gogiboy
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited January 2013
    I think most big ticket items I will offer less than asking price. I don't negotiate, per se. But, like Audia8q does with his dealership's cars, I do some research (mostly inventory and price) to narrow down what I want, where I want to buy it from, and what I'll pay. One offer. If we can't make a deal, no harm-no foul. I'll move on to another dealer...no hard feelings.

    Kirstie....unless the circumstances are VERY unusual, I can't imagine not negotiating on a house. I know in CA several years ago, they were selling real estate at, and many times, above asking prices. That's certainly not the case these days.

    I don't negotiate everything. But, just as a recent example, my refrigerator started going bad. It was 13 years old, but had at least one repair every year for the last 3 years. Personally, I think a refrigerator should last at least 2 decades, but apparently not this one (Maytag).

    After nursing it along over the past few weeks and seeing little leaks sprout out of and more untoward sounds emanating for it, the S.O. and I went out Saturday to shop for a new fridge. Understand that I looked for ratings on line, shopped on line for appliance resellers who specialize in internet selling, local retailers and the lines they represent.

    I approached it just like I approach buying a car. I narrowed down what I wanted. Then, I started sizing up the market demand, 2012 models vs 2013 models (yes, appliances are updated like car models), ratings...all the good things we look at when making a major purchase.

    No surprise that the cheapest prices are from those retailers who do that sort of appliance selling.

    Went to the usual suspects....Sears, Best Buy, Lowes, Home Depot, HHGregg, local retailers.

    S.O. wanted a fridge that retails for $3,300. :surprise: :confuse: :cry:

    Whoa....way over what I had in mind (~$1,500). But, she wanted fancy water and ice filtering, door dispensers, glass shelves (what's wrong with plastic shelves?), french doors, etc.

    Most of the major retailers don't negotiate. Even the local retailer told us...."we don't negotiate" after I asked if their sales price was their best price. But, as we were leaving their store, they popped another $100 off of their "sales price" before we got out the door.

    I do know HHGregg will negotiate as I've bought a couple of TVs from them for much less than their sales prices.

    We head to the local HHGregg. They have the fridge she wants. But, again I'm stuck in the price range that's not even remotely close to the fridge she wants. She doesn't whine, complain, really says nothing. Her look tells me none of the other fridges really float her boat. I can't stand the thought of disappointing her. She asks for very little.

    So, let's see how much damage is going to be inflicted on my checkbook.

    For perspective, here's the fridge we're talking about....

    http://www.samsung.com/us/appliances/refrigerators/RF4267HARS/XAA

    Sears is at MSRP less 10% (but charges for delivery), as is Lowes and Home Depot (both with free delivery). The local retailer is $100 beneath that.

    I offered HH Gregg $2,000 for it, thinking that would not fly, so I could tell my S.O. "well, I tried, but it didn't work out". The sales person asks us to wait so he can confer with his manager, who comes over to ask if I'm buying right now (doesn't this scenario sound familiar?). I am. They agree to $2K.

    Spent more than I wanted, but much less than it could have cost.

    I am really surprised that there is that kind of markup in appliances, too.

    A quick note about Sears....Craig, I know you spent a lot of years there. But, they seem to be holding on by a thread. We were there on Saturday, when shoppers throng to malls. I could have dropped a pin on one end of the appliance dept and heard it drop at the other end, a couple of hundred feet away. There was no one there.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,854
    I was able to get $100 off a $600 washer at our local appliance shop with very little effort, so there must be a decent amount of wiggle room. FWIW their selling price was within a few bucks as the box stores to begin with so I felt I did OK.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    Whew! I'm glad to hear your story ended with spending much less. That's the exact model I've been looking at, and found it on sale for a little over $2K at some places, though it's hard to find as Samsung doesn't want that price advertised.

    In the end, we're getting an even better deal - free. It's not THAT fridge, but it's a newer stainless steel model. Our realtor happens to have it in her garage. Bought it for an upscale rental property and didn't end up using it, sold it to some guy a year ago who paid her $350 for it, then never came to pick it up. She's letting us have it if we just pick it up. NO problem! It's not my ideal, but it's close enough and the price is right.

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  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited January 2013
    g.g, was that refrig discounted off the sale price or msrp? $1,300 off msrp sounds pretty good.

    May have to start shopping at hh gregg. Never cared for their store before as they've always seemed way overpriced.

    oh, by the way, Whirlpool refrigs suck. Bought one 2 years ago, about $1,600. Makes a "BUZZZZZZZZ"ing noise every 20 minutes. Want to throw it out the window. :sick:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    GG,
    Good thing you mentioned refrigerators.
    Our GE is about 15 years old and the ice maker has been getting flaky at times.
    It doesn't want to stop making ice and during the defrost cycle (might be the noises you are hearing) some of the overflowing cubes melt and eventually the excess water at the bottom on the freezer leaks out on the floor.
    It was our first side by side and it was great until my wife figured out she could fit a frozen turkey in the freezer side, so my fault for picking out that style of fridge.
    We immediately bought a cheap conventional one that went into the garage.
    This has actually worked out well for me in the long run, as I get to put what I want in it, unless we are having a food event.
    Not sure we will get the 4 door model, but 3 door looks like it will work.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    edited January 2013
    Don't know about the design of your particular fridge, but the side-by-side we have occasionally has the drain tube under the cooling coils clog with goop. When the freezer coil is defrosted to remove the ice that normally forms on it, that water can't get down the drain tray under it during the heater cycle. That water ends up overflowing onto the floor of the freezer where it usually freezes. Then the layer eventually makes it to the door area and with opening you'll sometimes get water out the door before it freezes on the bottom.

    Take out all the food and shelves. Remove a plate at the back. It may be frozen to the cooling coil so you may have to use a hair blower to warm it. Then thaw the ice on bottom, use hot water with bleach in it to thaw and push out goop in drain tube. Dry everything and reassemble.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I actually like doing research and negotiating, but I'd be fine with a no-haggle process if it was transparent and legitimate.

    The key to success of the concept is transparancy. There aren't a lot of secrets any longer, why why try to hide them. One mistake that poor negotiators make is not realizing that both sides have to win to make it agreeable. If one side feels like they "lost" then you can have a poor transaction/experience or if one side goes into the sale with the intention of slaying the other side, it always gets ugly. I truly believe limited haggling is win-win for most everyone.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Is a store worth shopping. It may vary from store to store, but they seem to match prices and want to make sales. If you're there to buy, they will try to sell the item.

    Last thing we bought there was a bisquit color microwave. They don't make those no more and we needed one to match the kitchen when the over the range Maytag died. Couldn't negotiate much on something only they had in stock at a local store.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited January 2013
    GG,

    I spent seven years at Sears and at age 23 I was the youngest Division Manager in the store. I was so proud to work there.

    Our store was the flagship store on the West Coast. Our Store Manager was a guy by the name of Vern Olson and he was the BEST! That store sparkled!

    The floors gleamed the displays were always perfect. We all dressed sharp and treated eveybody well.

    Then...things started to change and not in a good way. Affermative Action came into play and we were forced to hire and promote people that we shouldn't have.

    Then the big box stores arrived and the customers became price buyers.

    Then the internet....it became impossible to make a decent profit.

    Oh, Sears made it's share of mistakes too. They tried to compete with everyone. They tried to be Nordstroms and Wal Mart at the same time.

    " Sears, where America shops" was their motto. This ended.

    Last year I walked into my old store. Everything had changed. The place was a dump. Half the lights were burned out and the person I asked a question of spoke such poor English I couldnt' understand her.

    " You can go back the the same PLACE but you can't go back to the same TIME"

    I don't think Sears will be around for long. Sad....
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Kirstie....good deal. I can't top "free". :D

    jipster....I think Whirlpool, Maytag, Kitchenaid, Amana (maybe more) are all made/engineered in the same place. You can see very little difference between any of them. I remember when Maytag meant top quality and reliability. Not any more. Although, I do have to say the GF really loves her Kitchenaid mixer.

    explorer....For selection and price, HHGregg is hard to beat. Matter of fact, if you banter with them a little, I've yet been able to beat their pricing (not the price on their price signs stuck to their products).
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    edited January 2013
    How much do you charge for house calls?
    I know Michigan is not out of your way, but how about Connecticut? :)
    Last year, we lost power for 11 days, so maybe something happened related to that.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Connecticut?

    My last housecall was our trip to Canton, MI. Repaired dryer with defective cycle control. Told them the part was $80 and the housecall was $250. :sick:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Just purchased an LED and sound bar there, yesterday..

    Usually, I get that sort of thing at BB, but ran into a deal.. Wasn't even going to buy it this month. Sort of like car shopping.. :)

    Sears? They were already having problems, but Eddie Lampert has just about killed them. It's all a real estate play for him, but the company will be broke before it ever pays off.. SHLD is the stock to short, if you are inclined to take a chance.

    Fridge: we got a Bosch. I like it.

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  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Store as a real estate game - that's what happened to the old Two Guys chain out here. You now have a whole mall in what used to be one store.

    We've got a 20 year old Whirlpool that my wife insisted we buy when we built the house. I figured we already had one but she hated that it was old Harvest Gold from the 70s. I said we could paint it. I lost that one. This one is almost 20 years now so I think it earned its keep. One shelf isn't right since she tried to put in wrong once. Would like to replace but not in position to replace something that works fine.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    My first job was working at a Two Guys.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I forgot to mention, the total transparency thing is what I do like about your specific concept. Don't try to hide anything from people, sell them the car at a cheap enough (but not the cheapest) price, don't try to low ball them on the trade, make the process easy, & you'll have a happy customer as well as repeat buyers.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    I was down with the whole "no-haggle" thing, until you said you were making more money.. :P

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  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    Completely new 2014 Corvette Stingray:

    image

    image

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    edited January 2013
    For perspective, here's the fridge we're talking about....

    Great looking fridge GG. Car related...it seems to have LED lights inside too.

    How come there are two lower drawers, seem to be freezer drawers?
    image

    $2000 for a $3400 fridge...sounds good.

    We just got a new Bosch dishwasher from Lowes. One good thing about Lowes is their price includes delivery and taking away the old one.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855
    Last year, we lost power for 11 days, so maybe something happened related to that.

    Our kitchen fridge and basement freezer started acting funny after the July 1-3 2012 storms and power outages. We were paying our yearly car insurance and mentioned we just got new appliances after the power blips and outages. My insurance girl asked if we had receipts (we did). We got back all but delivery.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855
    2014 Corvette Stingray

    Good, they finally changed that old interior. I wonder if they shrunk the outer dimensions.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    I don't think Sears will be around for long. Sad....

    That is a fact.

    I think it's a Canadian expression, but I'm not positive, having spent so much time "down here," but "solid as Sears" is something that used to be said a lot, much like "built like a Mack truck."

    The older I get, the more willing I am to die. Things like this are much of the reason.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • billy3554billy3554 Member Posts: 148
    We have a "no haggle" dealer close to me,Maryland, which sells a variety of products. I have found this dealer's posted prices quite useful. Just the mention the "no haggle" dealer's posted price becomes the starting point for negotiations at a "haggle" dealership. Does not require any time and has always resulted in a lower price.

    The problem for a buyer who is unafraid of a dealer is the "no haggle" dealer's price is set by the dealer. I suspect most of the people who frequent Edmund's forums recognize the danger inherent in that concept.
  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,255
    I don't think Sears will be around for long. Sad....

    Yes it is, isellhondas, yes it is sad. There was a time when I would buy all my appliances from Sears and all their named products were superior. Now, I go into our Sears store in Boca Raton and if you are lucky, you can find a salesperson to assist you in under 15 minutes. Then, they barely speak English and are impossible to understand.

    A few weeks ago, I was in to Sears looking for a pair if Levi's jeans. They did not have the style I like in my size (waist or inseam) so I was told they could order it online. I don't order clothes online, but that was all they could do for me.

    The store is "over-cluttered" with displays and merchandise - almost impossible to find someone to help you and impossible to find what you are looking for. The only department that is well "manned" is their appliance department. The store is poorly lit as well. This Sears is in one of the most upscale malls in south Florida and seems totally out of place.

    It is a shame what has happened to Sears. Their employees (if you can find one) show now pride or loyalty when you meet them. They are poorly dressed and almost seem to ignore you when you yell to one of them 50 feet away and they pay no attention to you.

    I can't see them lasting more than a year or two more. That big store is always void of shoppers - almost like a ghost town. And IMHO, too late to save by even a superior management and executive team.

    2021 Genesis G90

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited January 2013
    driver....that fridge's middle drawer is supposed to be a specially regulated (temp+humidity) compartment for meat, cold cuts, etc. Does it work? Dunno. But, I'm about to find out. It has a couple of other regulated drawers for fruits ad vegetables that removes some chemical, allowing fruit and veggies to stay fresher longer. We'll see.

    I forget the list price HHGregg had the fridge at, but it was a little south of $3,000-"on sale" (from $3,400 list). When they accepted my $2K offer, I was surprised.

    fezo...I just read an article about Laempert's (sp) real estate play with the Sears and KMart mergers. They concluded it was about real estate. And, that two retailing icons were ruined in the process. They also noted that there was enough financial malfeasance involved that he should be prosecuted.

    Kmart is all but gone. Clearly, Sears isn't far behind.

    And, I do agree that the Sears stores are now dingy, and not a very appealing place to buy anything.

    Like the looks of the new 'vette. Glad they redid the interior. But, you can tell GM is still trying to use up some cheap looking turn stalks, buttons and dash materials that they've probably had in their parts supply storage areas for over a decade..

    I keep referring to Bob Lutz's book about bean counters at GM. In one particular chapter, he criticized GM interior designers about their desire to have no knobs to control anything. And, that everything would have virtual buttons. Lutz nixed the idea stating it would be a nightmare to operate.

    A few years later, I see the system he totally hated in the new Cadillacs as the CUE system. And, as he predicted, it's terrible and difficult to operate. Wonder how long it will be before GM runs out of parts for the CUE.

    As soon as I think GM may be getting it together........ :sick:

    kyfdx.....If anyone is adverse to negotiating on appliances and consumer electronics, HH Gregg still has pretty decent prices. Jaw with them a bit, and you get to the price no one else can beat. BTW....have you heard when the new car show is supposed to happen at the convention center?
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    you can tell GM is still trying to use up some cheap looking turn stalks, buttons and dash materials that they've probably had in their parts supply storage areas for over a decade..

    Your comments about GM parts bin made me think about this article I was reading...10 worst cars of all time from the L.A. Times. Notice how many were GMs.

    10. 1971 Ford Pinto-Built to a $2,000 base price, the subcompact Pinto lacks protection for its rear-mounted fuel tank. It earns a reputation as a fire-prone death trap and Ford pays out millions in judgments.

    9. 1917 Chevrolet Series D
    Chevy's first V8 could only manage 36 hp -- less than the brand's four-cylinder engine. GM killed it after 1918, and the next Chevy V8 came a full 37 years later.

    8. 1979 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Diesel
    As bad as the 5.7-liter Olds diesel V8 was, the 4.3-liter version was worse. Sold only in the '79 Cutlass, the 4.3 diesel made 90 hp before shattering into shrapnel.

    7. 1982 Cadillac Cimarron
    Shameful, cynical attempt to compete against BMW with a redecorated version of the front-drive, four-cylinder Chevrolet Cavalier. A self-inflicted wound that nearly killed Cadillac.

    6. 1958 Edsel Corsair
    Ford goes hunting for a market niche that wasn't there with a redecorated Mercury that had been beaten with an ugly stick. The legendary flop of all automotive flops.

    5. 2003 Saturn Ion
    Shockingly incompetent to drive and with a stupid interior to match. Kick it and your foot could get stuck in the gaps between the plastic body panels. Easily the second worst car of the 21st century.

    4. 1971 Chevrolet Vega
    An engine that couldn't hold oil, in a car built with contempt for its buyers. It's the car that invited Americans to buy Toyotas and Hondas. However, it did make a good Pro Stock racer.

    3. 1987 Yugo
    A Serbian-made version of the Fiat 127 that people thought couldn't possibly be as awful as its low price suggested. But it was!

    2. 1974 Ford Mustang II
    Built upon the spindly bones of the Pinto, this shrunken, malformed pony is instantly appalling to Mustang lovers. And, unfortunately, hugely popular with buyers stuck with serial fuel crises.

    1. 2001 Pontiac Aztek
    Drive one and you quickly realize that the Aztek's exterior design is its best feature. It's the very worst car of all time because it's the only car on the list to kill an 84-year-old car company. It's undeniable that the Aztek's utter hideousness drove the biggest and last nails into Pontiac's heavily side-clad, plastic coffin.

    So, GM had 6 out of 10 of the worst cars, of course they did have many good cars too. Did anyone own one of these? I am ashamed to admit, we had a 1974 Mustang II. I thought it made a pretty good little second car at the time. It was pretty gutless though, and not the most comfortable car.
    You sat pretty low with a tall belt line, so kind of felt you were in a bathtub looking over the edge.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    A journalist would like to speak to car/truck shoppers who are looking for vehicles that don't have new technology - or a minimum of it - such as touchscreens, phone connectivity, joystick-controlled infotainment systems etc. If you are looking to buy a gadget-free car or truck, please send your daytime contact to pr@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, January 22, 2013 at noon PT/3 p.m. ET.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    when the new car show is supposed to happen at the convention center

    http://www.gcada.net/

    Feb 21-24

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    That list is one opinion, so I wouldn't take it as gospel.
    Not only that, it is the LA Times. Enough said.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The list is life though, and if you make the worst list, you are dead.

    I'm shocked the Neon doesn't make more "worst" lists. I suppose if not for the abysmal reliability, it actually would have made a decent car.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    edited January 2013
    You confirm my point. There are many worse than are on the 'list'.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,953
    edited January 2013
    Our GE side by side is over 24 years old, compressor went in the one that came with the house in '87 and fil got them to give us a new one a year later. Door broke once and ice maker went out 5 months ago...price to fix was crazy so found some old ice cube trays, they work great! Waiting for it or the stove to go so we can replace both together. But it works well otherwise so will bide our time. Have a contract on the house so they will fix what is fixable. Already did the dishwasher 4 years ago so will go with black eventually so all can match.

    Will probably get Whirlpool so everything can match or maybe Kenmore. Don't plan on doing any other kitchen work, though really needed as we might sell once middle kid finishes pharmacy school. And anyone who buys our shack will demo everything anyways as except kids bathroom...all is original. Nice house/nice community/own it outright for years but will probably downsize down the road...I want to leave South Florida!!

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    Got a bit friendly with the contract company repair guy...he recommended most brands except foreign ones for a new fridge...he said the major brands are just put together better and have the least amount of problems.

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog Member Posts: 6,984
    edited January 2013
    "...you at least have to ASK."

    Absolutley. On our recent house purchase, I went in at 25% below asking. The agent was balking about presenting the offer. I told her that she legally had to make the offer whether she wanted to or not. I knew that the seller wouldn't accept the offer, but I also knew that he had the option to counter. He did. I got the house at 20% below asking price. As we often say here, "If you don't ask, you don't get."

    As you know, I've always done this with cars. Though a grinder, I try to remain flexible and leave the dealer some room to make a profit. As for fixed pricing, that's fine with me. I would just do some homework and, if the price was fair, I would go with the fixed price dealer. It certainly would save a lot of time. Then again, time is something that I have these days. ;)

    Richard
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    On our home purchase in 85 or so, the real estate agent said something about not insulting them with an offer that was too low. What did I care about insulting someone I didn't know? It was not her place.

    When I sold the house near Cincinnati, a real estate agent was the first to offer to buy with a very low offer--insulting me as she was trying to snatch up a low deal if someone was just anxious to sell and move on rather than wait.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited January 2013
    imid....my last real estate agent said the same thing to me...."Don't insult the seller with such a low offer." Really? As I told her, "tell the seller not to insult me for asking way over what it's worth to begin with."

    Needless to say, I didn't buy that house, nor did I use that real estate agent ever again.

    On the foreign vs domestic fridge....I long ago quit that "made in America" fight....on anything. Issue is, nothing is totally made here. Compressors come from overseas to begin with, for example.

    Could be wrong on this but I look at the material quality of....oh....let's say a Samsung, vs my previous Maytag, the Samsung's steel is heavier, the doors line up, the handles are solid metal (vs some sort of plastic on the Maytag).

    Is it really true that Whirlpool, Maytag, Kenmore (BTW....Kenmore's "Elite" brand is made by LG) really is better? Not from what I can tell.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,854
    Is it really true that Whirlpool, Maytag, Kenmore (BTW....Kenmore's "Elite" brand is made by LG) really is better? Not from what I can tell.

    Honestly, IMHO all the appliances today are pretty much garbage. Yes, they perform well and are efficient but build quality is spotty at best.

    As for Kenmore, most of their fridges are LG, DW's, washers and dryers are whirlpool, and ranges are Frigidaire (which is owned by Electrolux).

    I have a whole kitchen of Kenmore, and am hoping for the best. The less than 2 year fridge has already had the ice maker stop working (luckily a reset appears to have fixed it) and it's noiser than the almost 30 year old Kenmore fridge in the basement.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    I would just do some homework and, if the price was fair, I would go with the fixed price dealer.

    Me too! I was talking to two guys at the pool (not trying to rub it in, just stating a fact) yesterday and they were talking about their car buying experiences.

    Both thought car salespeople were not honest and they hated the whole experience of buying a car....actually dreaded having to buy a new car. These are fairly knowledgeable people, who just do not have any idea how the game is played....and they have no idea how to arrive at a fair price. I am sure both would prefer a "no haggle dealer" if they found they could trust the dealership.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Thanks for the car show post, kyfdx! :)
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The trouble with making a ridiculous offer on a house (or car) is the fact that people do get insulted and will often assume the "buyer" isn't serious.

    I know a lot of sellers would do as we once did. Have our agent counter at full price.

    Last summer we had a Garage Sale. We had some people offer 2.00 on a 20.00 item and I just blew them off.

    I did this to one nasty woman and five minutes later I GAVE that item to
    a nice young couple who looked like they were struggling.

    The nasty woman watched as I did this and the look on her face was priceless!
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