Stories from the Sales Frontlines

dino001 · June 2013

Yeah, today it's moot for those, but there will be something else. Something not mandatory, but desired by the market. Perhaps not just a safety feature, perhaps fabric on seats, or better stereo, whatever it is.

I'm not really arguing against fleet sales per say. It is their choice to make. Those are hard choices, that's for sure. Especially that even fleets are not equal. For example, every time I get a vehicle from Avis, it's usually a well equipped version, often above what average consumer of that brand and model would buy in retail. From several, I almost always got upgraded engine, leather seats, sunroof, etc. - either top of the line, or close. Hertz is similar. Enterprise, Dollar, Alamo - exact opposites. THE cheapest they can get is the one they buy. National or Budget - in between. I wonder if that would change, as it is now essentially only three companies that own all those brands. I think they'll keep those at least for a while, but there is no saying how it will look like in ten years.

One just needs to recognize that the choice is hard. Chase volume at cost of quality (in a wide sense) and you may get punished later. They just need to understand and be able to live with consequences, especially if they cheapen the vehicle beyond recognition.

BTW, not everybody does this, Honda has a very small fleet sale percentage and it serves them well. Even GM and Ford partially withdrew, which allowed Toyota and Hyundai to pick some fleet market up.

BTW, I did have Impala once, a cheap version. Awful powertrain, uncomfortable seats, cheap interior. Yeah, real advertisement. The only redeeming quality was I did not expect much (and did not get it). BTW, it was Enterprise.

imidazol97 · June 2013

>Removing safety features, like side impact airbags would be one of those items retail Impalas have standard and rental may have removed.

Do you have a link saying the RPO for a fleet rental Impala has the standard airbags 86'ed? Otherwise, it's not right spreading that idea that safety has been compromised.

robr2 · June 2013

Years ago it happened. IIRC, Chevy was equipping all Cobalts with side airbags as standard before regulations required them. A rental agency asked for GM to manufacture for them Cobalts without the side airbags to save cost. GM complied with their specification.

robr2 · June 2013

For example, every time I get a vehicle from Avis, it's usually a well equipped version, often above what average consumer of that brand and model would buy in retail. From several, I almost always got upgraded engine, leather seats, sunroof, etc. - either top of the line, or close. Hertz is similar.

But that's the rental car company that specifies those features. The manufacturer isn't telling them they have to take those options - they must be specifying those. It's the same thing with the old Impala - GM offers it because the rental agencies want an inexpensive, full size vehicle. They are filling a market need. Further, I'll venture that 95% of the renting public won't care that it's not chiseled from a piece of stone.

Kirstie_H · June 2013

Offering totally stripped-down versions as rental cars seems mostly a thing of the past. Perhaps you can still get them - I rarely rent, so I don't know. But my SO travels several weeks per month for business, and he gets all sorts of neat vehicles as rentals, and hasn't had a cheap-o version of anything in years.

cdnpinhead · June 2013

have shown me over the years what won't sell on the retail market. The leftovers get sold at a nice discount (I'm assuming) to whatever rental agency is interested. My company does National, so I'm always interested in seeing what non-GM (National is affiliated w/ GM) cars are available. There are plenty, and it's a window into what isn't selling.

Since National does mostly GM, I've driven lots of Impalas and Malibus. Both have gotten better over the years, but the Malibu is my choice these days, if it's available. I choose partly on familiarity, since I'm not interested in looking for any number of things that are hidden to those who aren't familiar with that exact car. It's standard work--helps avoid accidents while looking for stuff.

My main [non-permissible content removed] (in my list of many) these days is that the "executive" lane at National is full of trucks (or SUVs). I want a car. The choices are much more limited.

Kirstie_H · June 2013

Further, I'll venture that 95% of the renting public won't care that it's not chiseled from a piece of stone.

Probably true for non-business travelers, or biz travelers who spend almost no time in the rental vehicle. For leisure purposes, people usually want the lowest price available on the car of a size that meets their needs, period. The worst rental experience my SO had in recent years was being given a Mazda2 as a midsize car. I think that was Hertz or Avis. He complained when he turned it in, and then he got 5 free upgrade certificates. Their company uses National now, so he gets his choice.

abacomike · June 2013

...going to have touch screens and MySinc. What they're adding are knobs so you're not forced to only use the touchscreen.

The biggest complaint I had about touch-screens for NAV/audio, etc., when i was with Lexus, came from women! They complained that their screens became so scratched from constant use with fingernails (acrylic mostly), the lens of the screen distorted readouts. Lexus has since gone to controllers for navigating from screen to screen.

Touch screens will always have that problem. Having both touch and controllers are a much better idea!

verdugo · June 2013

But my SO travels several weeks per month for business, and he gets all sorts of neat vehicles as rentals, and hasn't had a cheap-o version of anything in years.

If he rents so often, of course they'll give him the nice ones.

My wife rents every week at the Sacramento airport. All the Avis guys know her. They give her the good cars and if she ever doesn't like one, she can return it.

She usually gets the really new cars. She got one car with 2 miles on it once.

verdugo · June 2013

The worst rental experience my SO had in recent years was being given a Mazda2 as a midsize car.

Hope he doesn't have to rent a car in Israel. There are 2 or 3 categories below the Mazda 2. :sick:

dino001 · June 2013

I used to use National several times many years ago and it was great then. Low prices and your own choice at airport isles when Emerald Card. Full size was true full size back then. I remember I got Olds Intrigue and Pontiac Grand Prix GT. For rentals they were great. There were some lesser choices, too, but if you didn't need larger car, those were fine, too.

Then about four years ago in Las Vegas I saw their "new improved" choice of "full size" cars and it was PT Cruiser, HHR. One time I was lucky and I got Malibu Maxx. Although no frills, it was quite allright even with its Chinese 3.5L pushrod V6. Gas mileage was better than on HHR, car was quiet and powerful enough in mountains. I hated that HHR. Terrible engine, subpar gas mileage, uncomfortable seats.

There is now "Premium" Isle for National - those cars are much better, but I don't qualify

Plus, their prices went up. I stick with Avis, or Hertz now, sometimes Enterprise. Seems all but Avis dropped their designations. Corolla or Focus is "midsize" now. You never know what you're gonna get.

Kirstie_H · June 2013

If he rents so often, of course they'll give him the nice ones.

Possibly, though he isn't at the same airport regularly. And of course they DID stick him with the Mazda2

But, even before he was travelling as much as he does now, the rental cars he got were a big improvement over the ones I remember renting some 10 years ago. They didn't even have non-stripper models to choose from, unless you were renting something super high-end, high-priced. All of the sedans were as plain-jane as they come.

And yeah, in other countries there are MUCH smaller vehicles available. The Nissan Micra I had in England was laughable, but there are some that make a SMART car look like a stretch limo.

dino001 · June 2013

On this very forum somebody wrote that they were shopping with a friend and came across such Impala. It was a missing side impact, not front impact airbag, which is mandatory and it was now some number of years ago. I clearly meant the stripping, if occurs, would be for non-mandatory equipment that was placed as standard in retail versions and stripped in rental version. Doesn't have to be a safety feature, although that one is most sticky one, becaue of advertising and potential liability. Not saying this practice is continuing now, but in the past it was basically SOP for certain rental companies and certain carmakers, which was evidenced by a fellow who wrote about that here in this forum.

I'm sure Ford's Crown Victoria was another "special spec" car for fleets for many years.

Kirstie_H · June 2013

Then about four years ago in Las Vegas I saw their "new improved" choice of "full size" cars and it was PT Cruiser, HHR.

Yeah, that's what we had in San Francisco. Four college friends and I met up there for a weekend. Three of them are "big and tall," so we specifically requested a full-size car for 5 adults.

Going uphill was a REAL adventure.

dino001 · June 2013

Funny, I was in San Francisco with the HHR, too (drove from Vegas to S.F.). Same experience with uphill. It felt like the car was going to slide down, especially after it stopped. My mom, sitting next to me, was close to a mental breakdown on those hills. I'm sure wasn't just the engine, but the "premium" tires, too.

isellhondas · June 2013

Not ALL vehicles require side air bags. Our son's 2012 Jeep Wrangler doesn't have them but you are surrounded by a roll bar.

Honda has resisted selling to the rental companies and we were always happy that was the case. Rental cars are dumped en masse usually after 18 months at the auctions and this really hurts resale values. Camrys are a good example of this.

Oh, you may see a Honda once in awhile but these have been bought through a local dealer.

isellhondas · June 2013

My job used to take me to downtown San Francisco from time to time and I can tell you, between the hills and dodging cable cars (that can't stop) it could get pretty hairy especially if you don't know the city.

Driving in Oakland could get scary too!

dino001 · June 2013

That's right. I had Accord once through Hertz, two years ago. Wasn't too impressed. Not terrible, but nothing fancy, either. It felts a bit low end. I think Honda was going through some crisis in last five years. They really tried to get prices down a bit too hard. And the Accord got ridiculous "bargey". It was a cow. You could not find an once of the old "sporty" heritage in it. It was gone. Just an opinion.

houdini1 · June 2013

Oh they can stop alright. We lived there for a couple of years in the 70's and those cable cars have a top speed of about 10 mph. They make emergency stops by slapping a steel wedge between the wheel and the track, then go from 10 mph to 0 mph in about the length of 2 feet. Lots and lots of lawsuits on those things, but they attract visitors (money) from all over the world.

They have been designated a national treasure or something like that, and as such, no changes can be made to them. The current tech they use dates back to the 1800's.

explorerx4 · June 2013

Congrats on the new Escape. We have a 2013 also, and a 2009 and a 2004.
I think we like them.

MyFord Touch does take some getting used to. It kind of reminds of learning to use Windows on a PC. After a while, it becomes the new normal.
BTW, there are voice commands, too.
I see you have an SEL, Which engine do you have?
I like having a moon roof just for the extra light it lets in.
My sister lives off exit 101 on I-80.

imidazol97 · June 2013

JDP top large car is the Impala.

For 2013 Impala is the top quality vehicle and GM is the top company.
GM is the top company.

driver100 · June 2013

btw...my cheap Impala rental actually has a sun roof - I am not sure why they bothered. Took it out on the highway and it is even worse than I thought, noisy and when it is going 70 it feels like you are doing 90.....not much in the steering or suspension department. I see a need for cheap rental cars...this one has 5400 miles on it and someone spilled a purple liquid on the back seats that won't come off.....but, it is false economy from an advertising perspective - this car could lose potential customers.

For something different, here is the way GM found they could ship Vegas for a lot less money...by standing them up on end;
Vega vert-a-pac shipping

By shipping standing up they could ship 30 per car instead of the standard 15;

verdugo · June 2013

Not ALL vehicles require side air bags. Our son's 2012 Jeep Wrangler doesn't have them but you are surrounded by a roll bar.

Not me. I have a 2012 Wrangler as well and I made sure I ordered side air bags.

verdugo · June 2013

By shipping standing up they could ship 30 per car instead of the standard 15;

That is pretty brilliant. Wonder why it never took off?

isellhondas · June 2013

Really? Our son's is a four door Unlimited and I don't know HOW they could fit side airbags since the doors are removable.

I wish we had known!

I hate riding in that thing!

isellhondas · June 2013

Yeah, but if they do throw that steel wedge, they stop so fast they throw the riders off. They use wooden blocks that press against the tracks normally.

I made a point to stay WAY away from them!

Between the tourists, suicidal bicycle couriers, the hills and the cable cars, a driver has his/her hands full in S.F.!

houdini1 · June 2013

Exactly !! That's why there are so many lawsuits.

venture · June 2013

I haven't ventured into the voice commands yet. That's next. I'm still finding things without confusing myself.

It has the 1.6 Ecoboost. If it had the 2.0 it would have added another $2K to the sticker. This one already stickered at a little over $34k. :surprise: It seems geared right so it feels powerful enough around town. I haven't taken it on the interstate yet, except for short jaunt to go to Lowes.

Exit 101 - that would be DuBois. About an hour and a half NW of me.

robr2 · June 2013

Not ALL vehicles require side air bags. Our son's 2012 Jeep Wrangler doesn't have them but you are surrounded by a roll bar.

You are correct. Only cars are required to have side air bags. Trucks and SUV's under 8,500 lbs only need to have front airbags which IMHO makes no sense as we all know the vast majority of these "vehicles" are used as daily drivers.

Really? Our son's is a four door Unlimited and I don't know HOW they could fit side airbags since the doors are removable.

The optional Wrangler side airbags are seat mounted.

graphicguy · June 2013

Speaking of rental fleets.....I rent cars for work a couple of times/mo when I travel to a different city. The most unusual were a PT Cruiser, when they first hit the streets. If you recall, those were the hottest cars since the Mustang when they first came out. I remember thinking I didn't know what the fuss was about, because they drove just like an economy car (which is what they really were).

The most unusual, from Dollar, was a Mini-Cooper. This one wasn't a stripped down model either. It was the S version. And, I had to sign a waver stating I knew how to drive a manual trans, as that's what it had. I figured it was something of a white elephant that they made a mistake in ordering for their fleet. But, when I got to the lot looking for it, they had 5 of them, side by side, all manual trans and S versions.

Fun car to drive for a couple of days. Not a BMW, and I'm not even sure they're a good $30K car (which is what I assume they cost). But, if you're an empty nester, with no need for a lot or space, and want to drive something a little sporty, you could do worse.

verdugo · June 2013

Really? Our son's is a four door Unlimited and I don't know HOW they could fit side airbags since the doors are removable.

I think the airbags are in the seats. I'll check later.

Or rather, what rob said.

driver100 · June 2013

That is pretty brilliant. Wonder why it never took off?

I think it didn't take off for a few reasons. The car has to be pretty small, then it has to be prepped so the fluids don't run out. They wanted to keep the price of the Vega under $2000 and shipping was a whopping $300, so if they could cut the shipping in half it made the car cheaper.

Unfortunately, the Vega wasn't around for too long, since there were so many mechanical and reliability problems. Those special cars had to be used for something else...but you would think they could have shipped Beetles or Rabbits in them.

Kirstie_H · June 2013

Yeah, I was wondering about the fluids, and of course the battery would have to be installed at the receiving end. I have no idea whether vehicles are normally shipped with or without the battery, but that could be a problem as I don't think they like being anything but upright.

explorerx4 · June 2013

I have the 2.0 in my Fusion, but I think I would have been happy with the 1.6.
We are taking the Escape on vacation next month. It should be interesting packing, since we have always taken an Explorer.

robr2 · June 2013

According to this:

Shipping Vegas

they were shipped with all fluids and the battery installed. The fluid reservoirs were all specially designed to deal with it.

My Dad had a 75 Vega hatchback. He kept if for 4 years and commuted 50 miles a day with it. He traded it with over 60K and yes the engine was leaking coolant.

abacomike · June 2013

They wanted to keep the price of the Vega under $2000 and shipping was a whopping $300, so if they could cut the shipping in half it made the car cheaper.

I bought an orange Chevy Vega Hatchback for $1800 back in 1972. I was living in the far western suburbs of Chicago and used it to commute to Chicago every weekday. If I remember correctly, it had a 3-speed stick on the floor and, at times, I felt like I could accelerate faster if I got out and pushed. But, for strictly commuting 90 miles round-tip a day, it was perfect! Not a very safe car, from what I remember, but cheap to buy, cheap to commute in, and cheap to maintain.

It handled poorly on the highway at 65 mph, but around town, it was fine.

It had an AM radio, black bucket seats, no a/c (which was fine since I did not drive much in the summers with it), and had quite a noisy engine when reaching high rpm's. But it was a great little car and did what I needed it to do - basic daily commuting.

avatexrs1 · June 2013

Reposted for another forum.

At least one dealer gets the Internet and e-quotes.

I just closed on a 2013 Acura ILX Premium, polished metallic (grey) with black leather interior. The dealer provided a great price initially in response to the "e-price" link on their website, responded immediately by email in response to a request for an OTD quote, and negotiated the entire transaction in about three phone calls. I never actually went into the dealer, having test driven the model when I had as a service loaner and someone else going to the dealer to pick up the vehicle. Used FedEx to sign the papers and deliver the purchase price via cashier's check.

The deal:
$24,988 Sales price
1,620 Sales tax
149 Dealer doc fee
143 Other taxes/title
$26,900 Total OTD

Comparisons (without taxes and fees):
$28,790 Edmunds TMV
$28,137 TrueCar
$26,600 CarsDirect

I paid less than what I was quoted for a base model a month ago. With the 2014s now on the lot, there are great deals on the 2013s.

This is the future for a lot of buyers: using technology to avoid the hassles of the four square, the 30+ minutes of sitting there waiting for the sales guy to "talk" to the sales manager, etc. that many dealers like to use when you're there in person.

driver100 · June 2013

RE: Shipping Vegas

As Rob said the cars were specially made so they could ship them this way. Here is the relavant paragraph in the link;

Since the cars were stored with the nose down and shipped with all of their necessary fluids, certain aspects of the vehicles were designed specifically for this type of shipping process, including an oil baffle in the engine, a special anti-gravity (just kidding) battery, and even a repositioned windshield washer reservoir. Pretty cool, and  if nothing else  interesting no?

driver100 · June 2013

I bought an orange Chevy Vega Hatchback for $1800 back in 1972

I was managing a retail store in 1973 and I bought a Racing Green Maverick with a 302 engine that year. My assistant manager bought an orange Vega.

Made my car look like crap....those Vegas looked good, even if they weren't mechanically sound.

driver100 · June 2013

149 Dealer doc fee

Where do you get a $149 doc fee these days?

That's a very good price if you plan on keeping the car for at least 5 or 6 years. Remember though, if you do trade it in say 2 or 3 years, then it will be one year older, and could be worth $4K or $5K less as a trade-in.

You are right though, that is the easy way to shop if you know what you want, and don't need a test drive or some help. I still like to talk to a real person....I have been given some very good advice by from the sales people I have dealt with.

I didn't like a regular 535 but it is a completely different car with the M Package. I was also considering a 550 but the salesman said I was more suited to the 535.

Also, did you have a trade-in, that might make buying on the internet more difficult?

venture · June 2013

Where do you get a $149 doc fee these days?

The doc fee on the Escape was $131 here in Pennsylvania. I think that's the maximum allowed. jmonroe is the expert on PA doc fees.

graphicguy · June 2013

Great job. I'm seeing more of those ILXs around. They look like a mini TSX.

I (helped) buy the Audi S4 that way. Couldn't make a deal locally. So, had to go as far as Chicago (5 hour drive) to make the deal. It was all done via internet and phone. I really wasn't sure the dealership would stick to the deal until I got into their store. But, they did. They also bought me a nice dinner and paid for one night's lodging. Not a bad way to buy.

Kirstie_H · June 2013

Yeah, I realize that the Vegas were designed so they could be shipped that way. I'm just thinking of why it never caught on - wouldn't be all that practical for most vehicles, I wouldn't have thought.

Kirstie_H · June 2013

No doc fee on my last car purchase (used car from a small, family-owned lot). The one before that, $99.

robr2 · June 2013

Probably a height issue - the Vega was tiny compared to the Catalinas and Cougars of the time.

Today cars are often moved by train on autoracks which are two level or on Union Pacific's autoflex which can be adjusted for 2 or 3 level shipping.

Autorack:

Autoflex:

avatexrs1 · June 2013

$149 seems to be the standard dealer doc fee in Texas.

Since I negotiated an OTD price, whether they charge a higher "base" sales price or a higher dealer fee doesn't matter much to me. It's about as relevant as MSRP.

driver100 · June 2013

. I'm just thinking of why it never caught on -

I get it now. That is a good point, I think it has to do partly with what Rob said, those Vegas were pretty small so would fit vertically.

I think shipping costs have come down a lot since then. Vegas were $2000 but shipping was $300...guess that is 15% of the cost price. Today it costs at most maybe $1000 to ship a car, so shipping may be a little more than 3X as much, but the average price of a car has gone up 10 or 12X as much.

They can bring container loads of blueberries, raspberries etc from South America for pennies a container. In my business, we import books from England and shipping just adds about 15 cents per book. Shipping costs have really tumbled over the years.

driver100 · June 2013

negotiated an OTD price, whether they charge a higher "base" sales price or a higher dealer fee doesn't matter much to me.

Good move....do you have any idea how much it is normally. We have been through doc fees a few times, and no one will want to go through that one again, but consider yourself fortunate...in Florida $600 - $700 is pretty normal.

A few dealers don't charge, but, I am sure they make it up somewhere.

bwia · June 2013

Hey Driver, have you been affected by the floods up in Canada?

This year extreme weather has affected practically every corner of the U.S. Beginning with heavy snowfall in the Northeast to a heat wave in Alaska to severe tornadoes in the Midwest, and to flooding everywhere else. I hope all are well, and for those buying a used car be on the lookout for flood damaged vehicles masquerading as in good condition.

Obviously, the insurance industry is negatively impacted by these events but they will simply pass their losses on to us in the form higher auto and homeowner insurance premiums. Let's pray that the hurricane season will be mild and uneventful.

.

roadburner · June 2013

I participated in a BMW Ride-and-Drive yesterday, driving an Audi A7 and an xDrive 640 Gran Coupe- Ingolstadt and Munich's answers to to the M-B CLS.

A7: Beautiful interior with a fairly logical control layout. Audi's MMI interface might be a tad better than BMW's latest iteration of iDrive, but not by much. The navigation system uses Google maps, so you have an actual picture of the area rather than a map. The sound system was nice as well. Not a bad drive, but everything felt a little soft and numb. After the drive I commented that I might want one- in 20-30 years.

640i Gran Coupe: Color me surprised; the interior design and trim was actually more attractive than the A7 cockpit. After 12 years of revisions/upgrades the iDrive is actually easy to use. The B&O surround system was stunning. This is the only AWD BMW I prefer over the RWD- only because the AWD gets a communicative hydraulic steering system instead of the horrible EPS found in the RWD cars. Unlike the Audi, I was able to put the 640i in Sport+ mode. It handled much better than it's size and bulk would suggest. I might-MIGHT-prefer a Gran Coupe to an Alpina B7, but I'd need to drive them back to back to make sure. In any event, the Gran Coupe is one of the very few new BMWs that I would seriously consider owning- the others being the 135is/M Sport and the E92 M3. Everything else bores me to tears- including the F10 M5...

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