Stories from the Sales Frontlines

Michaell · October 2013

A few things pop up without even referencing the link:

1) 'S' trim level (read: stripped and with 2.5L 4 banger)
2) FWD
3) Lease conquest (can't already drive a Ford?)
4) $2000 due at signing - without acquisition fee (another $500-900?)

Anything else I missed?

snakeweasel · October 2013

What's the catch indeed. Those payments barely pay the interest on the car. The one example you posted take the MSRP less the upfront payment and the lease conquest money then divide that by the lease payment and see what you get.

robr2 · October 2013

Doesn't include taxes....in NY do you only pay the sales tax on the lease amount or the purchase price????

isellhondas · October 2013

Well, it's a 24 month lease and it's only 10,500 miles a year instead of the normal 12,000.

I think they are hoping the people leasing will upgrade to a nicer model for more money.

isellhondas · October 2013

I meant the Robinson-Pattman ACT. Not the book.

isellhondas · October 2013

Costco does the same thing with their vendors. THEY dictate the rules and things have to be done THEIR way.. THEY tell the vendors what they will pay etc.

Some vendors go along with the program and end up making a lot of money as a result. Others resent being told what they will do and refuse to sell to them.

And, some drop out after awhile unable or unwilling to comply with the directives from Costco.

driver100 · October 2013

I meant the Robinson-Pattman ACT. Not the book.

Oh, I think the book looks better, this could be heavy slogging if you want to read it at bedtime!

But, the R-B Act is a good and necessary one. Briefly,

In general, the Act prohibits sales that discriminate in price on the sale of goods to equally-situated distributors when the effect of such sales is to reduce competition. Price means net price and includes all compensation paid. The seller may not throw in additional goods or services. Injured parties or the US government may bring an action under the Act.

In Canada our competition laws are not very strong....makes it hard for the little guy to compete.

Some companies will never sell to Walmart or Costco and companies like that, they will just grind you into the ground until you can't make a profit any more. You still need them though to keep your investment from going under.

driver100 · October 2013

This one looked interesting too! For just $69 a month for 24 months. I think you covered most of the scam, but it still seems like a pretty low price:

NEW 2013 Buick Verano Base 69 a month X 24 months

Must have non-GM lease in the household. Leases quoted through Ally, GM Financial or USBank. On approved credit, prior sales and GMS offers excluded. See dealer for complete details.
MSRP = $24,470. 24 month lease, 10000 miles per year allowable, $.25 per mile thereafter. $2995 due at signing. Does not include sales tax. Does not include registration and acquisition fees. Security Deposit waived. Not all buyers will qualify. Must take delivery by 10/31/2013. Prior Sales Excluded.
stock#:PAB131735. mileage: 113

If you have a $3000 trade in and need a new car, doesn't sound bad for $69 a month.

explorerx4 · October 2013

I should have figured that out by your comment, or at least looked it up.
Now it makes sense to me.

stickguy · October 2013

I saw some today (I think Ford?) that were lower. $19, $29. But they were 24 months with $4,500 up front. And I believe that was if you qualified for the lease rebate.

but man, that $19 was in a big, big font!

driver100 · October 2013

I saw some today (I think Ford?) that were lower. $19, $29.

Advertising has become ridiculous. First we had the "bi-monthly" payment with the payment in huge letters. I have even seen that amount painted on the door of a new car...with bi-monthly in tiny print.

Now we have the small payment hi-lited, and we have the down payment amount in tiny print.

I imagine soon we'll see a car with a huge $1.99 painted on the door, and in small print "weekly" and then in smaller print, "with $10,999 down".

imidazol97 · October 2013

>biweekly

Sounds like leasing advertising has gone the way that carpet pricing went: from $$ square yard to $ per square foot.

Or in Canada, instead of $$ per square meter, is it now $$ per square decimeter? I just realized I don't know how it's priced in Canada. Educate me driver 100.

snakeweasel · October 2013

In general, the Act prohibits sales that discriminate in price on the sale of goods to equally-situated distributors when the effect of such sales is to reduce competition.

Which is why the act doesn't apply to the situations I was thinking about. 1.) While it gave a discount to the dealership that wasn't readily available to others it wasn't enough to reduce competition. 2.) The discount didn't affect the end sales price of the car since it wasn't taken into account in the negotiations since no one in sales knew about it. and 3.) there was nothing in the agreement that prevented other dealerships from negotiating their own deals which may or may not have been better.

driver100 · October 2013

Or in Canada, instead of $$ per square meter, is it now $$ per square decimeter? I just realized I don't know how it's priced in Canada.

I checked an ad....carpeting is usually sold per sq. ft still. I believe they use sq meter quite often, but, I guess they found there isn't anything smaller except per sq cm or mm, which would be kind of ridiculous.

One good thing about our meters is we just entered a trade deal with the European market, and I think you have to be in the decimal system to trade with them.

Besides, we get to go 100 on our highways.....kilometers per hour that is though(about 64 mph). Though some Americans were coming across the border and assumed that was mph. Now, there are big signs explaining.

graphicguy · October 2013

Maybe I'm getting too conservative (this coming from a guy that has no problem whatsoever in buying a car on any whim, and justifying it in his own mind).

But, in my so far unsuccssful attempt to find a "nice" luxo-beater as a 2nd vehicle, I keep wondering why someone would toss down $5K up front on a lease, when that would buy a pretty decent luxo-beater, with no payments?

In my quest, I think my next car will be a step down from the German lux cars. I just don't see the value in the $$$$$ they now cost (purchase + maintenance + repairs + taxes. etc). These are my personal feelings with all due respect given to my esteemed and respected bretheren here who like German luxo cars.

snakeweasel · October 2013

I would urge you to stop by a dealership and check it out for yourself. It looks like a Benz, but I don't know if it handles like one .

Ok it was raining yesterday during lunch so instead of taking my usual walk I decided to take a ride and check out the CLA. Now there are two MB dealers about ten minutes away from work (in different directions) so I went to one however they had sold all they had. So I went to the other dealership and was told that the last one they had was driven off the lot less than an hour earlier.

Both dealerships told me they were selling them as fast as they came in.

jayrider · October 2013

Your problem finding a nice 5K luxo beater is probably related to the possibility that are too many dudes are looking for the same thing. Demand is probably pushing prices to 7K or more. Especially with gas prices dropping.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

I'll gladly adopt the metric system in the US if ever given the chance. But if we change, then it needs to be completely converted, unlike the mixed system in the UK. I'm all for unique national identities and culture, but I do wish we would globally standardize on measurements, language (toughest one), paper size, and which side of the road we drive on.

verdugo · October 2013

" language (toughest one), "

English is pretty much a de facto universal language already.

Totally agree on paper size and measurements.

dino001 · October 2013

This may be regional or temporary. Both dealers in Tampa bay show five in stock each.

Kirstie_H · October 2013

I'm sure some of you have "great brand" tales to share.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f280cf3

We're not necessarily looking for automotive-related brands - just any company you've had a good experience with and why you like them. As soon as I saw this request come through email, I thought of the recent crushed popped chips story, but please share any experiences that are worth a mention!

snakeweasel · October 2013

My guess it is only temporary, the cars are just starting to trickle int the showrooms and it a new model with some buzz behind it. My guess is after a month or so when they are being delivered with more regularity and those who have to have them have them I am sure they will be spending more time at the dealers.

abacomike · October 2013

Both dealerships told me they were selling them as fast as they came in.

My dealer told me the same thing. They took delivery of 45 this month and have only one left on the lot.

The CLA is in direct competition with the Cadillac ATS, but is slightly less expensive than the ATS. A loaded ATS MSRP's for about $37,500 while an equivalent CLA is about $36,500.

My dealer tells me they have 50 CLA's coming in next month, but 35 are already sold. They are not having to discount them on order to beef up sales, that's for sure.

isellhondas · October 2013

No discounts??

That drives the mooches NUTS!

jayrider · October 2013

New CLA's aren't being shopped by mooches. We are all over at the Honda Stores. That's where a mooch can be a mooch.

Michaell · October 2013

And if you peek in on the Accord, Civic or CR-V forums in "Prices Paid" you'll find that most of the folks there are looking to get $500-1500 below invoice for a 2013 model and a few hundred below invoice on a new 2014.

abacomike · October 2013

That drives the mooches NUTS!

That's for sure! But they can try. In a few months, they'll give them away as they do E, C, and GLK class vehicles.

My doctor went in to try to lease the new S Class sedan. He is finishing his lease on his 2011 sedan. The lease was $1850 a month with $5K up front.

I drove one last week - I would compare that new S Class with a Bentley Sedan. Even though the S Class is $120,000 less, it drives beautifully and the interior is like a Rolls. But my doctor is waiting until Dec or Jan to get a better deal. Right now, there are almost none available - you have to order one (2 month wait) to get anything near what you would want.

oldfarmer50 · October 2013

"...I quit P&G years ago..."

Plus there's that devil worship thing.

imidazol97 · October 2013

Speaking of P&G, the Proctors and Gambles are many of the giant old tombstone plots in Spring Grove Cemetery representing founders of industry along with Kroger and some other names.. This is a near downtown Cincinnati cemetery that is hundreds of acres. It's also an arboretum holding many specimen trees.

A family put up two SpongeBob markers for their adult daughters with permission. The cemetery changed their mind after the markers went up. They are bearing all the costs to put up different markers for the family.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/spring-grove-cemetery-takes-down-soldiers-sp- - ongebob-squarepants-tombstone

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/22/us/spongebob-gravestone-controversy/

IT's relevant because the cemetery also hosts a large cruise in once a year using the parking around the new funeral home built in one corner of the land. Here are this year's pictures, if you like to browse old cars. A few hundred were there last Sunday, and so was I to view the cars.
The car show ends with a tour of the cemetery by all the cars that wish to be in the parade. I've never stayed for that.

http://countrycruiser.com/2013/grove/index.htm

We sometimes go through the miles of winding roads in the early spring to see the early bloomers. Beautiful. It actually raises your spirits because it's so beautiful at times.

oldfarmer50 · October 2013

"...a nice luxo-beater..."

You can't go wrong with a Mark VIII. I finally got comfortable enough to light up the tires today and was impressed. It handles really well for an old man's car.

I think I paid at the top end of what they are going for because of the low miles. If you were willing to settle for a little more milage, say, 90-100k you could get a 97-98 for the $2500 range.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ctd/4131918952.html

Another choice could be a Caddy Eldorado. I think by the end of it's run in 2002 GM solved the 4.6L Northstar head gasket problem which made for one hot little 300hp engine. Probably could be had for $5-6k.

isellhondas · October 2013

Yeah, I know.

they have a new "expert" that is dispensing a lot of advice that in most cases isn't going to work.

Don't worry...I'm resisting the urge.

kyfdx · October 2013

You have to wonder what employee was left in charge, the day those tombstones were approved...

snakeweasel · October 2013

Maybe it was an ex-congressman.

Michaell · October 2013

Isell,

Since "prices Paid" is my domain I'm quite familiar with who you're referring to. I've had to step in a couple times before the discussion on doc fees got out of hand.

Is the advice dispensed there perfect? Nope. Has it helped folks get a good price? In some cases, yes. I don't think any given strategy is universal.

I appreciate your restraint and know that I've got your back as you continue to fight the good fight on buying Hondas.

Michaell · October 2013

That headstone story has gotten a lot of play here in Colorado as the soldier in question was killed by her boyfriend at a hotel in Colorado Springs.

bwia · October 2013

...you'll find that most of the folks there are looking to get $500-1500 below invoice for a 2013 model and a few hundred below invoice on a new 2014.

Why not? The so called invoice price is not real. It is inflated by some 2 to 3% or more, that is why a dealer can accept significant discounts below invoice and free maintenance service and still make money.

As the say, a product is worth what a buyer is willing to pay and the seller is willing to accept. Why leave money on the table when it's there for the asking.

tjc78 · October 2013

"Another choice could be a Caddy Eldorado"

The Mark VIII is such the better vechicle there IMO. Better interior, and RWD. I'd also bet more reliable in the long run too.

I'd also be thinking about a Lexus SC or an older LS400. Those cars were built so well, however I'd bet you would see some silly asking prices.

Michaell · October 2013

The so called invoice price is not real. It is inflated by some 2 to 3% or more, that is why a dealer can accept significant discounts below invoice and free maintenance service and still make money.

Undoubtedly. Otherwise, they would let the customer walk.

What I find interesting, is that as a host - and reading every post in "Prices Paid" - is that the Honda forums are the ones with the most activity regarding buying strategies and $$$'s under invoice to target.

Also, I'm of the opinion that the new car side of a dealership is generally run as a 'loss leader' - they really make their money on the sale of used cars as well as in the service department.

graphicguy · October 2013

oldfarmer...I'm sticking my stake in the ground for a Lincoln Mark XXX or an Acura Legend/TL. Maybe expand my shopping into a Caddy. Still not real confortable with some of the older Cadillac iron. GM has just now started to come out of the reliability middle ages. And, older German iron, if not meticulously maitained, is a money pit. That's why an Acura (or maybe even a Lexus) is high on my list of "luxo-beaters". $2,500 is right in my wheelhouse as far as expenditure....I'll go $3K if I find one that's particularly nice.

Imid....I've been to that "cruise in" at Spring Grove Cemetary. It's one of the best ones I've ever been to. And, as cemetaries go, it's one of the prettiest ones in the entire country (however, I've only been to ones in OH, IL, CA, KY, MA).

isellhondas...gotta applaud you on showing restraint over in the Accord Prices Paid forum. I wandered in there several weeks ago, tried to help. I was immediately attacked for not knowhing what I was talking about. Okey-dokey. Let them frustrate each other, bemoaning how they couldn't make a deal on the color, options, model of Accord they want....all the while traipsing to 3 different dealers, wasting hours upon hours. Then being admonished by the alleged "expert" for not following his directions.

We've seen the same type, over the years. They come, and they go. Last one I remember was the "PCH" guy in these threads.

graphicguy · October 2013

oldfarmer...I'm sticking my stake in the ground for a Lincoln Mark XXX (I really like yours) or an Acura Legend/TL. Maybe expand my shopping into a Caddy. Still not real confortable with some of the older Cadillac iron. GM has just now started to come out of the reliability middle ages. And, older German iron, if not meticulously maitained, is a money pit. That's why an Acura (or maybe even a Lexus) is high on my list of "luxo-beaters". $2,500 is right in my wheelhouse as far as expenditure....I'll go $3K if I find one that's particularly nice.

Imid....I've been to that "cruise in" at Spring Grove Cemetary. It's one of the best ones I've ever been to. And, as cemetaries go, it's one of the prettiest ones in the entire country (however, I've only been to ones in OH, IL, CA, KY, MA).

isellhondas...gotta applaud you on showing restraint over in the Accord Prices Paid forum. I wandered in there several weeks ago, tried to help. I was immediately attacked for not knowhing what I was talking about. Okey-dokey. Let them frustrate each other, bemoaning how they couldn't make a deal on the color, options, model of Accord they want....all the while traipsing to 3 different dealers, wasting hours upon hours. Then being admonished by the alleged "expert" for not following his directions.

We've seen the same type, over the years. They come, and they go. Last one I remember was the "PCH" guy in these threads.

imidazol97 · October 2013

>Imid....I've been to that "cruise in" at Spring Grove Cemetery.

Did you go this year? This was my third visit in 4 years--last year rained out. I wore my Edmunds shirt. I also wore it to Fiehrer Buick's car show.

>They come, and they go. Last one I remember was the "PCH" guy in these threads.

Or they just change names.

isellhondas · October 2013

I appreciate that and I know he means well.

isellhondas · October 2013

PCH got caught when I exposed him.

I guess he didn't know I'm from So. Calif and am familiar with PCH101.

Pacific Coast Highway also known as Hwy 101.

Yeah the troublemakers seem too be a thing of the past.

bwia · October 2013

Feast your eyes on the interior of the 2015 Mercedes Benz C-Class. It looks a little cramped but wow, what a clean and neat design. The color heads-up display looks a little too busy though.

Story and pics at http://rumors.automobilemag.com/2015-mercedes-benz-c-class-interior-technologies- - - - -revealed-251801.html?eml=648213&sp_rid=4297980#axzz2ieYyBGn5

graphicguy · October 2013

imid...I didn't go this year (or last year). I think the last Spring Grove Cruise-In I went to was 3 years ago.

Isell...I seem to vaguely remember you calling out PCH101. Wasn't he the guy who claimed he knew all the "dealer tricks" and exposed them...only to find out he bought a trashed Dodge Stealth (and not even the hot turbo version) and way overpaid for it? I seem to remember that scenario.

Yep...the "experts" come and they go.

Sorry about the double post above. Seems the Edmunds threads are acting flaky again.

dino001 · October 2013

I'm not a Benz afficionado, but this one looks really nice. A verry good mix between classic and extravagant.

cdnpinhead · October 2013

"Pacific Coast Highway also known as Hwy 101."

Son of a gun -- I always thought the PCH was CA state hwy 1. It runs right next to the ocean from Dana Point up to Oxnard, where it does join 101 for a stretch. Splits off again at SLO to run up the Big Sur coast, joins the 101 just long enough to go over the Golden Gate, then over to Stinson Beach and up the coast again all the way to Leggett, where it ends with the T junction with 101.

I rode it the first time in '68 on a motorcycle, then several more times over the years in my MGB, 240Z & Miata -- good times.

Kirstie_H · October 2013

I don't remember the entire history of that guy, but I *do* remember the Stealth issue, which I think is the one that sent him spiraling out of control and down in flames. I also remember that he loved us so much that he needed more than one user ID.

driver100 · October 2013

Feast your eyes on the interior of the 2015 Mercedes Benz C-Class.

Looks beautiful Just wondering about those gear shifters...there seems to be a contest to make them fancier than the other guys. Also, I thought the vents look a little like something from a Pontiac Phoenix. One other negative, but I think the rear camera monitor should be built in, not look like something added on at the last minute.

However, I do like that steering wheel, the black and red, and the overall nice clean look.

driver100 · October 2013

I took the car in for the "free" 24K mile oil change which was done at 30K because thats when the engine indicated it needed changing.

Made an appointment the week before. to take the car in at 9 a.m. and I had to have it back by 12 noon to get to an appointment for 1 PM.

When it wasn't ready by 5 after 12 I asked where it was and they said a few more minutes. Do I still want a wash? I said forget the wash, get it to me by 12:15

At 12:20 I went to check. They said just a few more minutes, they'll drive it around. Do you want a wash? NO, I DON'T WANT A WASH.

At 12:25 I checked, he said I should pay the bill and then wait outside and they would bring it by the time I got out there.

I wondered out at 12:30. Finally the original service guy saw me outside, he went out to the wash and drove my car around. By the time I adjusted the seat and mirrors it was 12:40.

I didn't have time to eat lunch, I had to drive like a maniac, and I got to my appointment 1 minute early. Now I have to go back for my car wash, which they say they will do in 5 minutes!!!!!

Also, interesting, the lady waiting next to me in the waiting room had this report from the consultant........whoever changed your oil last stripped the threads so we have to replace the bolt etc, that will cost $150! Must be a lesson in there somewhere.

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