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Bait & Switch and Other Bad Advertising Tactics

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Comments

  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I agree with your assessment. Honestly, the expectations of large discounts has been around since post-9/11 when the big cash rebates started. Necessary then but now it has become the norm.

    Personally, I think it's time to re-evaluate the entire new car sales transaction. The whole process is too adversarial with both sides not trusting the other. This is no way to conduct business. Unfortunately, you need buy-in from ALL the dealers and manufacturers for it to work. Now might be the right time.

    Having been a part of the Edmunds forum for well over a decade now, I've read the posts of salesmen and finance managers who are on here regularly. There is no way i could put up with some of the customers they deal with. I don't go into a dealership to buy a car until I know I can afford it and have done my research. I'm also very clear to the salesman about my timetable. And I have walked out on a salesman when I didn't like the games he was playing (i.e. the old divide the paper into four squares :sick: ). I now understand that many customers are not like this and like to waste their time and the salesman's time. Unfortunately, you see it at all levels of retail.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Personally, I think it's time to re-evaluate the entire new car sales transaction. The whole process is too adversarial with both sides not trusting the other. This is no way to conduct business. Unfortunately, you need buy-in from ALL the dealers and manufacturers for it to work. Now might be the right time.

    Not just dealers. Sites like Edmunds have a vested interest in sowing fear and distrust as well. "Come to us, we'll tell you the truth" Even if their numbers don't add up either. "Confesssions of a Car Salesman" is pushed here. More fearmongering. Oh by the way, how does Edmunds make money? showing advertisers how many people are coming to their site every day.

    Fact is, most dealer do it the right way. Even so, consumers still believe that we should sell cars for triple net. :sick:
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    Did you mention C4C when you asked for the internet qoute?

    If you did, then it was bait and switch, but if you did not, then you tried to pull one on the dealer.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    If C4C is the same as "CASH", how could there be any deception?

    When the internet price was 31,800, part of that should, could be in the form of C4C & the balance via Certified check for 27,300. B & S was committed.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    BS maybe ... but not B&S.

    The salesperson did not try to "switch" the buyer to another car.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    True, but the switch was the design of accepting payment.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    If C4C is the same as "CASH", how could there be any deception?

    When the internet price was 31,800, part of that should, could be in the form of C4C & the balance via Certified check for 27,300. B & S was committed.


    The big operative here is "IF." C4C is not cold hard cash, but a promise to maybe given cash at some point in the future, which would then make it into a loan, or advance.

    I wonder how many people would agree to overpaying for the vehicle now, and maybe accpeting a refund from the dealer when the clunker was processed.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    and what is my compensation for accepting a risky condition that is to be that of the dealers in the C4C program? The C4C value is a substitute for cash. Not immediate cash, but eventually coming to the dealer who willingly participated in the program.
  • hsilvahsilva Member Posts: 10
    In mid June I got a flyer from Balise Auto advertising 100% NADA pricing on trade ins, payoff of your current loan and 0% financing on certain models. I inquired by e-mail about a 2009 Subaru Forester and said I wanted NADA for my trade and 0% financing. They e-mailed me a price for the Forester, said it was on the lot and ready and invited me to come in. I thought I had a deal. When I got to Balise, the car I wanted was not there and they tried to sell me a 2010 at a higher price. Then they told me I couldn't combine offers (even though it said nothing about that on the flyer). So, they had no intention of selling me the car I wanted, and they had no intention of honoring the terms in the flyer. I checked FTC regulations and that's classic bait and switch. Careful about dealing with Balise in New England.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 22,559
    "...They e-mailed me a price for the Forester..."

    Which one did they price for you, the 2009 or 2010? If the car you wanted was not there, what happened to it? Did they sell it before you arrived or was it never there at all? If it was never there that's sounds pretty crooked. If they sold it before you could get there, well, that happens.

    Usually you can not combine discounts (or in this case over allowance on your trade) with 0% financing. So if they said you could that should have been a warning.

    Sadly, some dealers will do anything to get you in the door. Shop elsewhere.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • g5iveg5ive Member Posts: 6
    Hi,

    I've been doing some research on this and other sites for about a month and a half now. I'm interested in buying a used car and decided to try and get it financed through "online lending" that Edmunds recommends. I filled out everything and I was contacted by a dealer.

    I received an email from the dealer stating how my application was approved and that I needed to go in and visit them to go over the loan details. I called the person that sent me the email and when I asked about the interest rate on the loan she told me that No details on the loan can be released until these documents are verified in person due to privacy laws.

    Those documents are any recent paystubs, proof of address and my drivers license, so then I asked her if I was approved for the loan, would I need to purchase the car from them and she said NO.

    If I remember correctly, one of the things that Edmunds recommends is, avoiding dealer financing, yet they're referring me to get financed through a dealer. I'm I misunderstanding something or can someone explain what's going on here.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 22,559
    "...I was contacted by a dealer..."

    Was it a specific dealer or was it a corporate manufacturer's finance arm like GMAC?

    If it was a specific dealer I'd be curious to know why also.

    BTW, if you belong to a credit union they often have lower rates.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • g5iveg5ive Member Posts: 6
    "Was it a specific dealer or was it a corporate manufacturer's finance arm like GMAC?

    If it was a specific dealer I'd be curious to know why also.

    BTW, if you belong to a credit union they often have lower rates."

    I was contacted by 2 seprated dealers. I first applied with edmunds and I was contacted by greenbrook auto of new jersey and then I applied through carsdirect and I was contacted by planethondanj

    I don't belong to a credit union, I'm assuming that my credit has to be very in order to get a loan from one?
  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Member Posts: 910
    Not sure which link you clicked on, perhaps you could share? Edmunds has tons of useful information on financing. There are also sponsor links including "Marketplace" ads, most of which have agreements in the fine print such as:

    "I authorize xxxxxxxx to forward my application information (excluding any consumer report) to a non affiliated third party marketing company ("Third Party"). I authorize the Third Party to in turn share my application information with motor vehicle dealers and other third parties who may be able to assist me in obtaining financing."

    That is probably why you were contacted. They assume you want to buy a car and need financing.

    Best advice to finance a used car would be to get your bank or credit unions best rate, which you can compare to the online rate as well as the dealers best rate. Also, many manufacturers have special rates for certified used cars. You should know what your credit score is going in.

    Not sure what this has to do with Bait & Switch. Have you found a car you want to buy yet?
  • g5iveg5ive Member Posts: 6
    "I authorize xxxxxxxx to forward my application information (excluding any consumer report) to a non affiliated third party marketing company ("Third Party"). I authorize the Third Party to in turn share my application information with motor vehicle dealers and other third parties who may be able to assist me in obtaining financing."

    "That is probably why you were contacted. They assume you want to buy a car and need financing.

    Best advice to finance a used car would be to get your bank or credit unions best rate, which you can compare to the online rate as well as the dealers best rate. Also, many manufacturers have special rates for certified used cars. You should know what your credit score is going in.

    Not sure what this has to do with Bait & Switch. Have you found a car you want to buy yet?"

    My credit score is 592 and I placed this in the Bait & Switch because I didn't know how to start my own thread.

    Yes I already have 2 cars in mind, either a 2003-05 Corolla or a 2007 Yaris. I want to avoid going into a dealer and having to hear how "this" car is better and we can give you a better deal if you buy here.

    There's a credit union where I work and I used to belong to it a few years back, but how possible is it that they can approve me for a loan if my credit score is 592?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well, of course you were contacted by a dealer. Who did you think would contact you?

    Moist stores use a variety of lenders and will try to find one that will approve you with your low score. Depending on things such as the reason for the score, down payment, job history etc, you should be able to get a loan.

    Just don't expect a great rate.
  • g5iveg5ive Member Posts: 6
    I understand this, but all I want is financing, I'm not interested on the dealers pitch to sell me their cars. I already know what I want, and I didn't think that dealers would contact me, I thought that some online lending company would contact me.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Try your local credit unions..They offer the best rates..I would always finance through a bank or credit union-the dealer would be my last choice as in-when none of the banks can finance me.
  • g5iveg5ive Member Posts: 6
    I'm willing to try a credit union, but how likely is it that they approve me with my credit score? The company I work for is associated with a credit union.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Contact your employer's Credit Union - in person. They have several tiers of financing, depending on various factors in your application. Most CU's also provide personal finance education classes. You might find that an interesting feature of joining.
  • exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    Filling out credit applications online is just asking for "identity theft", especially with third party sites like Edmunds. Your personal information is now stored on Edmunds computers, multiple dealers computers and God only knows how many lending institutions. How many dozens of people now have access to your data, the data that anyone could use to get a loan for themselves?

    Not to mention that the computers where your information is stored, are more than likely are connected to the Internet, and easily hackable by the bad guys. Especially dealer's computers. Ninety percent of dealer sites that have credit application forms, are not encrypted. That means that your SSN is traveling the Internet in clear text where anybody can read it. If dealers are so ignorant of Internet security as not to use SSL encryption, how save do you think your data is on their computers?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    A lot of this will have to do with the reason your score is so low.

    If you have a history of not paying your bills or you have chargeoffs and collection accounts you may not get a loan.

    If you have a good history and just had a bad stretch or medical bills they may overlook this.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Why this, and not many others, I can't tell you. Perhaps it's because I think it's different and may dupe uneducated consumers into believing that a fictional pricing structure exists.
    http://www.landmarkdodge.net/

    It's not overt on the website, but the television ads feature testimonials and voiceovers that heavily rely on the phrase "warehouse pricing." Where is this "warehouse," and what prices are available to those who shop there?

    What's worse is that their advertised prices are no lower than other local dealerships, and I found better advertised pricing in about 2 minutes. I honestly feel that this borders on deceptive advertising, given that there is, to my knowledge, no such animal.

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  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Could Landmark Dodge be referring to Costco pricing schedules for new cars?

    Costco does have purchase agreements with different dealers in a given marketing area. Perhaps Landmark Dodge has one of those Costco connections.
  • verdugoverdugo Member Posts: 2,286
    Costco does have purchase agreements with different dealers in a given marketing area. Perhaps Landmark Dodge has one of those Costco connections.

    I highly doubt it. You can look in one of their pictures, there's the "used car wharehouse," aka, the used car lot.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    I also doubt it. There's not a word about such a deal on their website, nor in any of their TV ads. Just a lot of talk about "I got warehouse pricing..."

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  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    and Diane Sawyer was surprised to learn you could buy a new car from Costco due to selected local dealers with wholesale pricing.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Saw this one in the paper today. "All new Mazda cars sold at invoice." They show the photo of an invoice statement. Everything looks good until you get to the bottom, under the invoice column, under transportation fee, there is something called a "Louisville Assessment" fee. This invoice price is $300, but there is nothing listed in the "Retail" column. Tack on anther $350 for doc. fee, and you're 3/4 of the way to MSRP. Booooo.... Hisssssss. :sick:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Member Posts: 910
    Probably a legitimate adv charge to the dealer from the manufacturer if it is on the invoice. It is a part of his cost.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Why so deceptive then? "Louisville Assesment", sounds to have a whole different meaning than anything connected to a advertising fee. Sorry, sounds like b.s to me.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Absolutely. Besides "All new Mazda cars sold at invoice." sounds pretty clear to me. If he means invoice plus whatever funny fees he wishes to invent he should say this.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    ...negotiate from invoice, not MSRP...

    But, the MSRP (Monroney sticker) is a constant... Invoice can mean whatever the dealer wants it to mean..

    In the example above, the "Louisville assessment" is, most likely, an actual legitimate advertising fee on the factory invoice... Which is why I make all my offers in USDollars.... not on invoice +, or MSRP -

    And, above all... realize that advertising is meant to sell cars... not an honesty test... lol..

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  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Member Posts: 910
    edited August 2010
    If it is a charge the dealer adds, then it is a BS fee. If it is on the actual invoice from the manufacturer, it is a legitimate charge the dealer pays and is part of his cost. Not so hard to understand. Most manufacturers show this as a regional fee, and it varies around the country in what it's called and the amount.

    The brand I sold had a $500 regional fee included on our invoices, while some other parts of the country had from $200 to $600. It is part of the actual invoice which the dealer pays if he wants the car. He has no choice. So probably nothing misleading or BS about it. It simply is money the manufacturer uses to pay for their regional advertising, which the dealer has no say in.

    People should keep in mind that as kyfdx says the MSRP is constant, while the invoice can vary around the country. And sorry, but to ask "Why so deceptive then?" simply shows a lack of understanding of how the car manufacturer's do business.

    So if a dealer advertises "cars sold at invoice", the charge should be included, as it is part of his invoice. Nothing more, nothing less.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    And sorry, but to ask "Why so deceptive then?" simply shows a lack of understanding of how the car manufacturer's do business.

    No, it shows an understanding that car manufacturers do business is a very deceptive way. That's hardly a secret.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited August 2010
    If it is a charge the dealer adds, then it is a BS fee

    Doc. fees come from the dealer, so you're saying they too are B.S fees. I'll agree with that. I'd say anything over $50 is probably bogus..
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Member Posts: 910
    edited August 2010
    No, it shows an understanding that car manufacturers do business is a very deceptive way. That's hardly a secret.

    Absolutely nothing deceptive about it from the manufacturer. Now the add on fees by the dealer (i.e. doc fees) are deceptive if the dealer hides it from the buyer and springs it in F&I. Not really deceptive if it is disclosed up front on the buyers order, although I don't like them either. I've always focused on the bottom line OTD price.
  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Member Posts: 910
    Yes, especially if they are not disclosed up front. Every car I have bought I reduced the total price I offered by the amount of the doc fee. And I do recommend shoppers focus on the bottom line.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Absolutely nothing deceptive about it from the manufacturer

    If it (Louisville Assesment fee) is an advertising fee... why not call it an advertising fee? I'd say it's because most people feel paying extra in advertising is just another way to squeeze money from the customer. Advertising is a normal cost associated in running a business. It should be included in the invoice price. But, right or wrong in charging the advertising fee... it is deceptive.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    It's the dealer's invoice from the manufacturer... If they changed it from the actual invoice, then that would be shady, right? They said they are selling for invoice... Then, they show you the actual invoice... It's not their fault what is printed on it.... or, that it doesn't agree with what Edmunds reports...

    They know what (Louisville Assessment fee) means.. the document wasn't designed for the consumer.. And, they aren't charging an advertising fee... They are charging dealer invoice..

    I really don't see anything deceptive about it, at all.... They are charging invoice, and they show you the invoice... Not their fault that the consumer might have a preconcieved notion of what their invoice might be..

    Plus, if you are using the jipst method, they'll come crawling around with a cheaper price, eventually, anyway.. :surprise:

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  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I suppose. It is annoying after listening to so many "but you don't haggle on the price of a refrigerator" (even though a lot of folks do) and such it strikes me that I've never paid an advertising fee on a refrigerator either. I'm sorry but advertising fees only strike me as a way to advertise one price and actually sell at another. It's not classic bait and switch but it's in the neighborhood.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Where and how do the Holdbacks figure into the "invoice cost"?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Doesn't matter... the dealer pays the invoice cost, not the consumer... ;)

    Seriously... I think only Toyota actually includes the holdback as a line item on the invoice.... For all other makes, it's an "off-the-invoice" item that gets credited to the dealer.... probably in aggregate for the month..

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  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    edited August 2010
    Whoa! This discussion is too simplistic. True dealer cost is very hard to establish. I scanned these posts about "invoice" in wonderment. It seemed that most people assumed that the dealer "invoice" was his cost. Then someone mentioned the "holdback" and the host dismissed this rebate to the dealer which can be as high as 2% of the invoice as something that "doesn't matter."

    Guys, dealer holdback matters a great deal because it reduces the dealer's cost. Knowing the "invoice" total is simply the tip of the iceburg regarding dealer cost. In addition to holdback rebates , there are factory to dealer incentives (AKA "cash in the trunk"), informal arrangements ("If you can move 5 Impalas, we'll try to help you with an allocation for a 'vette"), etc.

    Moreover, wouldn't it be very helpful to know how long the car has been in inventory? A little detective work on the inventory label might be revealing. The Nashua NH BMW dealer still has a brand new, two year old 2009 750li in stock. If I were looking for a 2009 7 Series, I'd almost rather know that rather than his "invoice". The same BMW dealership has a two wheel drive , V12 760L in stock. When I expressed amazement that they would stock such a car in New Hampshire, I was told " We didn't order it. The factory just sent it to us." in a tone of resignation. All in all, a little work can go a long way in establishing a dealer's basis.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    is always difficult to gauge. It always appears that some dealers are moving cars at steep losses. While the line that new car sales don't provide the profits that it used to may be true, I'm pretty sure a new car dealer is not going to lose his shirt selling new Accords.

    Besides invoice price, there will always be holdbacks, manufacturer incentives, volume bonuses, etc for dealers to hit. Also, a Hyundai salesman told me recently that no matter the price, Hyundai pays him $100 directly to sell a Sonata. However, I'm sure he receives a percentage of the profit the dealer makes as well.

    And just because a dealer has had a brand new car sitting on their lot for 2 years does not mean they will deal. I faced a Volvo dealer unwilling to deal on an untitled 2008 Volvo S40 a few months back.
  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Member Posts: 910
    Excellent post, kyfdx. You are 100% correct in that the invoice wasn't designed for the consumer. It is a billing document between the manufacturer and the dealer.

    And to clear up any remaining misunderstanding about adv. fees, this supports the manufacturers regional ads and can vary by region depending upon the media costs in each market. That is why it is split out on the invoice, because those charges vary by market. The dealer still has to pay for their own local ads, be they print, TV, radio, direct mail, sponsorships, etc. And this cost is included in the price you pay just like other products. When you purchase other products, you do pay for the advertisement in the price. But you are not looking at the internal billing document or invoice between say GE and the retailer. You can't walk into Best Buy and see the invoice on that refrigerator.

    And yes, dealers for most brands do get holdback. It is paid to the dealer monthly, quarterly, or even annually to offset the dealers interest or floorplan expense. Otherwise, a dealer wouldn't have any incentive to stock any cars, and only order what they had actually sold. Car manufacturers could not operate that way. And dealers don't talk about it, because the money is basically already offset by this expense. Not to mention that usually the sales department doesn't get paid on it.

    And as for money paid by the manufacturer directly to the salesperson, known as spiffs, keep in mind the average salesperson sells between 10-12 cars per month, many of them at a minimum commission. Which probably averages $50-150 per car. They are not exactly getting rich, especially when you consider usually only certain models have spiffs, and for only a limited period of time.

    Rebates and incentives are almost always passed on to the consumer. Most of this information is readily available on sites such as this. If the dealership didn't, they would place themselves in an uncompetitive situation and lose sales.

    I understand some folks obsession with dealer cost. But it doesn't really matter. It is what they will sell it for that matters. And a total out the door price is the best way to comparison shop while looking for that best price.

    Car dealers are not charitable institutions. They are in business to make a profit, and have enormous expenses. They simply cannot stay in business without making a sufficient margin on their products.
  • jb_turnerjb_turner Member Posts: 702
    Why even be concerned about dealer cost, holdbacks, this fee, that fee... etc... What matters is the OTD price.
    We all pay an OTD price. Just shop comparing apples to apples for the best OTD price.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The average shopper doesn't care or think about overhead or other expenses nor did I want them to. They only care about PRICE and I was always amazed at how normally nice people could turn so ugly or be so cheap sometimes.

    It continued to get worse as cheap customers pitted dealer against dealer as never before. You name it, I saw it.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    edited August 2010
    Totally agree about dealer overhead expenses. Just the utility bills can be a hefty sum. And in addition to that-spanking new showrooms with all amenities like Wifi, free coffee and muffins,Flat screen TV`s even at Honda/Toyota stores- and dont flame me for this --attractive receptionists ;) --all these things cost a lot of money. :shades:

    I cant understand some folks comparing oil change prices of of some Spiffy Jube chains to the dealer`s. Like $45 vs $30. The chain has some general techs and they use general oil or cheap filters.. I would never ever go to any place other than a dealer for any maintenance or repair simply b`cos the techs there would know the most about that brand. And cant beat the ambience of the dealership or the services they have like dropping you off and picking you back. And the dealer rates are not too different than some mechanic ,,like 100 vs 65. And you get what you pay for . Cheaper,inferior parts with incompetent jobs. More so with modern cars which are highly complicated computerized machines. :P

    And the local mechanic cant invest the thousands of dollars that a dealer invests in diagnostic equipment simply b`cos he cant buy them for every brand whereas the dealer buys it only for his brand.

    The only time I would go to a non dealer shop would be to replace my tires,battery and windshields.. :D
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    No flame but unattractive receptionists get the same pay as the unattractive ones.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    I realize that the pay is the same and I was speaking with respect to the service customer who is waiting for his car to be serviced and then sees the attractive receptionist. Just a good feeling--human nature I guess !! ;)

    Makes waiting tolerable,easier and pleasing to the eye !! :shades:
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