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  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    ...but then again I`m probably the only one who likes hatches.

    Nope, you're not the only one. I had a Focus ZX5 for a few years and thought it was much more practical than the 4 door sedan.

    I prefer the 5-door Astra as well. I wonder if GM will eventually put in the 2.4L 172HP engine into it.

    Or if there will be a Red Line version .... or a Green Line.

    So much we still don't know!
  • bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSp-IOnSAGo

    I found it rather entertaining, this guys an idiot, you will see what i mean when you watch it.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Oh you must not be familar with Clarkson that is part of his Shtick to insult american cars. If you read his columns on a regular basis you will see that there are some american cars that he does like. He makes valid points sometimes and sometimes he sounds like a hate monger towards america but it is just part of his comedy routine.

    Just off the top of my head the US cars he likes...

    Ford GT(owned one for a time not sure if he still has it)
    CTS-V
    Vettes for the most part
    300C
    Vauxhaul Monaro(We know it as the Pontiac GTO)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    From the Philadelphia newspaper:

    http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/16630619.htm
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    Here is the surprise of the month: The 2008 Ford Five Hundred will be renamed Ford Taurus. Good Step? I doubt it. Even those people who have nice pleasant memories with the Taurus will find it hard to digest a $25K - $33K Taurus.

    I am excited to see the new G8. What are the engine options? I think in Australia there is a 3.6L V6 and a 6.0 V8?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,143
    Clarkson is hilarious...he's wrong often but he is correct more often.
  • jcgablejcgable Member Posts: 30
    Yeah, so he's a retard... but he did make a good point about the road manners on a corvette. Despite that, he continually compared it to the Ferrari, even though he knows that a corvette is 1/3 the price...

    A complete idiot.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    its generally believed the engine options will be the same as in Australia, the 255hp V6 and 362hp V8. Hopefully both transmissions will be available here as well although I wouldnt be shocked if we only get the auto for the V8 in the states. We will know soon enough.

    The Taurus name change is interesting. One thing's for sure, it cant possibly hurt the sales of the 500. If they actually advertise the car I think it can do well. Now that its got power it really is a strong entry in the large car class and its way cheaper than the Avalon.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Dang. The grille and 3.5 V6 should help, and the name should also give it another boost. Ford will have to weather the blowout FWD Impala sales of 2008 before the neo-Taurus can really have a chance to shine.

    The Commodore line gets the 3.6HF V6 in a few different tunes (260ish hp), and a version of the mass-production 6.0 V8 used in the trucks and SUVs here (360ish hp). No LS2 this time around, but HSV (Holden's high-performance partner) wants to put the LS7 in their whips.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    362hp is more than enough for a car that will likely be under $35k. It should be able to keep up with the G35 and TL-S without any problem.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    It should be able to keep up with the G35 and TL-S without any problem.

    Maybe. That 362hp has to tote around 3900 pounds of car.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    yes that's true. The Chrysler 300C can easily keep up with those two, if not outaccelerate them, but it can never outshine them in handling and driving fun due to its heavy weight.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Nice to hear from you sensai. I figured when the GTO was mentioned you would show up.

    And I was wondering when you were going to make the 400hp for...well-built...

    But you must admit the car was over-priced, even from the beginning. I do agree, as we stated before many, many, many times, it was mostly to the dealer practices, but the market eventually showed what it was willing to pay for it:

    2004: most held out for the fire sales, with some going as low as $20K (add in the GM Card discounts and it can dip lower); many stayed on the lots through to 2006 models
    2005: many went for mid - upper $20K, fire sales continued
    2006: upper $20K low $30K, haven't gotten the finals on this year but it seemed many paid in that range, with a mid-$20K every now and again

    Add in the marketing (or lack there of), purists feelings, GMs/dealer arrogance (and ignorance) and you have a very decent car that stalled in the market. I don't know if failed is the correct term, but it definitely didn't do as well as the brass thought it would.

    You can agree to this can't you?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    You arent going to find many 400hp cars on the market for $22k, give me a break.

    The point was missed. First off, the $ suggested was 22-24 not 22.

    GM/Pontiac did well in 60's with factory hot rods not costing too much more of a premium. Actually, in some cases the hot rod might have been cheaper than a similar model car that had cushy options. These were truly affordable by likely buyers, young guys.

    A lighter GTO (and $22-24K) with good handling could have been a very good package with a 300+ HP engine. There is more of a potential market in this price range than in the low 30's. Market for GTO is essentially Mustang types, not folks inclined toward BMW. The recent GTO was MSRP around an entry level 3-series. Folks with 3-series money will opt for it rather than GTO. Young guys with drag-strip mentality probably cannot afford 30's MSRP.
  • bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
    yea ive seen Top Gear.. am familiar with mr Clarkson.. i still think his an idiot.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    I think that the cost of a GTO today vs. the cost of a GTO in its heyday is an interesting question - Let's see what we can find out:

    According to this website1965 GTO the list price of a 1965 GTO was $3,700 - while that's to be taken with a grain of salt because of the way GM did options in those days, it's a good enough place to start.

    Now we grab our trusty Inflation Calculator Unfortunately, the last year that it works for is 2005, but close enough for our purposes.

    According to the calculator What cost $3700 in 1965 would cost $22045.12 in 2005.

    So.... You guys have called it exactly right on adjusted price :shades:

    Now the list price for a 2005 GTO: $32,295 - Looks way too high to me. :surprise:

    However, a GTO was still expensive in 1965 - it cost $3700 when the average Cost of a new car was $2,650.00 according to this site so the price of GTO was about 40% higher than the average car in 1965

    Interestingly enough, USA Today says that the average cost of a new car in 2005 was $27,958.

    That makes the cost of a new 2005 GTO only about 16% higher than the cost of the average 2005 car :confuse:
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    is hilarious.

    Some people need to get out more.

    The G8 is interesting. To truly reel in the Euro enthusiast, they can't skimp on the steering, and gear box.

    At least the power is going to the right end.

    When does it hit showrooms?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Bah Clarkson is brilliant. BRILLIANT

    Just because you don't get his style of humor does not mean he is an idiot.

    Is he over the top sometimes? Oh yes but that is part of his charm.

    He does have some legitimate criticisms of american cars though. There has been a tendency of american designers to be lazy because they have a bit of a captive market in the US. Many US market cars would fail horribly in other countries because they are too narrow casted to the US market.

    Oh for Lemko...

    Death of a Park Avenue
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    You need to add in air bags, lots more metal, lots more options, lots more emmisions, lots more everything.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah you can't do a straight inflation related price comparo because of how expensive all of the safety and emission stuff is on modern cars.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I think Toyota is in a bind here. Two years ago they saw the high gas prices and decided that they could increase the volume of their hybrid Prius. They added manufacturing capacity. Unfortunately for them gas has remained near $2 and they can see they will not be able to sell an overpriced vehicle.

    So, unheard of incentives for Toyota: interest free loans for 2 years OR 3 year lease at $219/month.

    Of course this may also be good business sense. They can easily subsidize the Prius with all their profits and bank the MPG credits for after the congress when they up the requirements.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I do not understand the comments here on $24,000 GTO's/G8's. I compared a Mustang and the V8 with only 300 hp starts at $27,000. Maybe I am missing something? What else is out there with RWD and the HP of the G8(which we really know nothing for sure about it yet)
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    ...you can't do a straight inflation related price comparo because of how expensive all of the safety and emission stuff is on modern cars.

    Absolutely true, but you can't say that the new GTO didn't sell solely because it was overpriced, either. 15% more for a hot car is an easy leap for people to make... if they want the car.

    A V-8 Mustang can run close to $30K and they're selling.

    I just think that the (new) GTO's real problem was that it just wasn't sexy.

    If you pulled up to a girl's house in a '65 GTO, she was out the door and in the passenger's seat before you could blow the horn.

    If you pulled up to her house in a 2005 GTO, she figured you were an Insurance Salesman who needed a new exhaust system. :blush:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/02/06/2008-pontiac-g8/#more-4765

    Only 362 hp in the V8 and 261 on the 3.6L.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    If you pulled up to a girl's house in a '65 GTO, she was out the door and in the passenger's seat before you could blow the horn.

    If you pulled up to her house in a 2005 GTO, she figured you were an Insurance Salesman who needed a new exhaust system.

    Yup that was part of the problem.

    Keep in mind that regarding the mustang most of them are V6 powered cars that start around 20,000 MSRP. Once you add up all the incentives, a total of 2,500 dollars showing right now, then you can get a V6 one for well into the teens.

    A V8 with typical options will climb up to 30,000 or so MSRP but those same incentives apply to mid to high 20's real world pricing.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Lokki hit the nail on the head. Having 400 horsepower & RWD didn't justify the price. What else did it have going for it? And did these attributes help sell the car? Was it sexy? Did it grab your collar, with the "Hey come look at me"? Make you do a second look, in a "Hey that's hot!!" manner, not a "Hey that's hell!! WTF were they thinking"

    Again, I just think GM/Lutz thought they could just take the car, slap GTO on it, and it would sell like hotcakes. :shades:
    Unfortunate for them it sold like two-week-old fruitcakes! :sick:

    That's enough Monaro/GTO for me; went through this on the other board.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,143
    "It looks good...if you're 9"

    Brilliant

    Oh some loyalists will be enraged at those Buicks
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    If you pulled up to a girl's house in a '65 GTO, she was out the door and in the passenger's seat before you could blow the horn.

    If you pulled up to her house in a 2005 GTO, she figured you were an Insurance Salesman who needed a new exhaust system.

    In 2005 she would be about 60 years old. Maybe be better to pull up in a Buick or Caddy. :P

    Those old mid 60's GTOs still draw lots of attention at car shows. There is something about them, think the word (which I guess is passe' now) is "tough". Look of latest gen GTO is kind of jelly bean, Accordish. No presence. Young guys of today would rather pull up to girl's house in a big pickup, except maybe those guys that have Mustangs.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The GTO is dead and I dont see the point in heaping insults on those that brought it to the US. We can all agree it was somewhat overpriced, but those of us who are realistic dont believe the car was $10k overpriced like some of you.

    Anyway, the GTO Is dead but the G8 is Pontiac's future. GM may be losing share but they are offering better options for consumers than ever before. The G8 is just what Pontiac needs. For those who laughed at the prospect of the interior being comparable to Acura I think the pics speak for themselves. It's not better than the TL, but its certainly in the ballpark. If it's a few grand cheaper I think people could easily see themselves going for the Pontiac.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The G8 is just what Pontiac needs. For those who laughed at the prospect of the interior being comparable to Acura I think the pics speak for themselves. It's not better than the TL, but its certainly in the ballpark. If it's a few grand cheaper I think people could easily see themselves going for the Pontiac.

    We will see for ourselves when in showroom and/or at car show. Has GM said they are trying to match up G8 to G35 or TL or what? Those of us owning current TL, and also multiple Pontiacs in past, then might have special interest. Would like to see Pontiac shine again and regain past glories. Let us also see what Edmunds, R&T, C&D and CR say about G8. Big question for C&D is what will they match it up to in their comparos.

    If it's a few grand cheaper I think people could easily see themselves going for the Pontiac.

    Versus or over what?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I really am not sure what the real competition is for this car. RWD/sedan/V8/supposedly a great handling vehicle.

    Mustang is more of a pony/coupe. Sure there will be some crossover but not really in same niche. Perhaps a Hemi Charger? Sure some Acura buyers may look but again they are FWD. Really do not think the BMW's are in the same market. Much more expensive. Same for any MB products. Am I missing any? EVeryone keeps hollering for RWD but there just is not much out there in this mid size $30K market.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    In a bind? I don't think so. So the bloom is off the rose for the car's 4th year on the market (gen 2)? Toyota has the Camry Hybrid now, which sold at a pretty good clip in its first year.

    Gas prices may be a $2 now, but just 5 month ago, they were $3. Who knows what will happen this coming summer?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Lemko,

    It's pretty sad pal when state's have to beg like dogs to keep a plant open. Jennifer Granholm, has begged, roll over ed, shakes, and they still close it anyways. :sick:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Motor Trend said the Lucerne is going RWD for 2011.

    A baby Caddy BLS could be built on a Vauxhall/Opel platform scheduled for the Saab 9-3/Astra. I personally would like them to make a baby RWD Caddy sedan to go head to head against the BMW 1-series.

    What do y'all think about the Pontiac G8 ????? Nice isn't it ? :D :shades:

    It looks like rorr, the Camaro could instead get the 403 hp 6.2 VVT V8 engine stuffed under the hood like I said would be plan B since GM wants to retire the LS-2. I guess I'll leave that up to you rorr, if you want to quench my thirst because I did say the 6.2 could make it instead of the
    LS-1. :P
    This of course is what I predicted if the 6.0 LS-2 didn't make production. ;) The 5.3 will NOT be in the Camaro. The 3.6 V6 engine Loren, will be the base V6 instead of the 3.9 ;)

    The Cadillac DTS will be RWD with the new "Ultra" V8 engine for model year 2011.

    The G8, is still scheduled to get a non-supercharged version of the LS-7 making 502 hp. :blush:

    The G6 GXP is getting the 252 hp 3.6 along with a 6-speed automatic among many other upgrades like suspension, StabiliTrak, 18 inch wheels, sport-tuned suspension, hammerhead rear spoiler, two exhaust openings, etc...

    Impala will be a RWD and have the 3.6, 5.3, 6.2 options and will have both the 6-speed automatic and manual options. :shades:

    Uncle Bob, still has a soft heart for the Velite as well. It's not totally dead according to a GM insider close to Lutz. He wanted to launch it with the Enclave. So will I FINALLY get my Velite next year or the year after ????? :D

    The Malibu isn't getting a SS version because GM, wants to only add the "SS" to real performance cars. Thank-God, eh ?

    The Pontiac Torrent is also getting a high-performance version in GXP trim. The same SS treatment for the Equinox :)

    The Chevy Volt has a 12 gallon tank and is capable of 640 miles. It runs for 40 miles on electric, then switches to gas engine if needed. So if your daily commute is 40 miles back n' forth you would never burn a drop of gasoline.

    I guess GM is also going to also make a CTS-V coupe :shades:

    The Aura is getting a wagon version for 2010 and so is the CTS.

    The bottom line is this was the most positive I've ever seen Motor Trend about GM's vehicals ->EVER !!!!!

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Lutz really wants to upgrade Buick into a luxury premium division. Lower price points though than Cadillac (sports) and Lexus(Luxury). Lexus really has no competition in its niche. Acura and Infiniti are more sporty. I guess MB is a competitor. Issue is investment. Not a lot to go around.

    The next laCrosse is supposed to be beautiful and those that have seen it say it looks very expensive. Enclave is also beautiful. So it looks like Lutz is getting his way.
    Rocky, I know Lutz wants the Velite but it is an awful expensive deal to come up with a new car. But now that there is the Zeta I would bet it is based on it.

    So it looks like Buick will become a 4 model division.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07chicago/brands/pontiac/inde- x.html

    I was impressed by the badge. Nice modern change.
    Concept of “modernized” Pontiac badge, to gauge public opinion.

    3.6 only has 261 hp!!! why did they not use the Lamdas 275??? And only a 5 speed? I guess that at least is competitve with Camry and the others. At least the V8 gets a 6 speed auto.

    Pictures and inane comments

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/02/06/2008-pontiac-g8/#more-4765
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    So it looks like Buick will become a 4 model division.

    That's about 1-1/2 models too many.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07chicago/brands/pontiac/g8%2- 0architecture.htm
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Does anybody know the differences between the Lamda 275HP 3.6 and the others at about 252? Cannot be just exhaust. Same torque curves. Both LY7's.

    http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/HFV6/20- 07_36L_LY7_G6.pdf

    http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/HFV6/20- 07_36L_LY7_Acadia.pdf
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    of the new G8.

    Rear end looks like a Ford 500, the interior looks cheap and gaudy like most GM's

    How it drives is most important to me. 50/50 weight distribution apparently. Hopefully the gear box, and steering are decently done.

    Overall not a bad looking car
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...at the Philadelphia Auto Show this past weekend. It looks much better in person than it does in pictures. I didn't like the way the grille looked in pictures, but it looks pretty good in person.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    261 is what the Australian 3.6L runs. What did they do to the Lambdas to get them up to 275? I would imagine the 6-speed has to be shipped in while the 5-speed is locally produced (and jeebus, they're putting some tall rear gears in there: 2.92 for the autos and 3.27 for the manual). Interesting that they are bringing in a V6 version also.

    Curb weight (lb / kg):
    Base: 3885 / 1762
    GT: 3995 / 1812

    No 3er, G35, TL competitor here. Try 300C/Charger/M35-45.

    I was impressed by the badge. Nice modern change.

    Bleh. It's the same sort of genericizing that was done to the Cadillac and Buick badges before it. The "Pontiacization" of the car is definitely not an improvement. At least it should be fairly easy to convert back to a Commodore.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Everyone thinks the interior is high quality. Holden's have had higher quality interiors than American GM cars (as well as Nissans, Toyotas, etc.) for a while now. The G8's interior looks much better than the Maxima's to me.

    Overall this is a great car. If you want to know how it drives read up on the Commodire, I assure you the information isnt secret. The Commodore is like an affordable 5 series BMW and it's chassis is ready for primetime. It's much sportier than FWD cars like the TL and Maxima and the G8 will likely be much more capable than its most direct competitors.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Lexus really has no competition in its niche

    Being the first Asian Luxury brand to offer a factory tuner division, yeah I guess you are right, Acura and Infiniti are definitely more sporty.

    To a certain extend, maybe even the 1988 stick Honda Civic is more "sporty" than the IS-F.

    So it looks like Buick will become a 4 model division.

    That sounds about right, 2 sedans and 2 crossovers I assume?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I personally like the G8's interior. As long as GM doesn't use hard plastic for pieces at the visible spot I think it'll be just fine. I can tolerate hard plastics at the lower surface of the dashboard and lower part of the door panel for any non-luxury brand cars.

    I hope the V6 will go for around 28K loaded and the V8 for 35K loaded. If the price is anywhere around that range I truly think that GM has yet another winner on their hand.

    By the way, several features on the G8 showcar won't go into production and those are:

    20-inch "shadow chrome" wheels and performance tires
    Ride height lowered by about a half-inch
    High-performance brake rotors with painted brake calipers
    Custom interior trim color with a leather-wrapped dash and "phantom gray" exterior paint
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    For a start, the Commodore is a lot bigger than a bloody Camry.
    If your wondering where those crazy mag wheels came from check out HSV.com.au website.
    This is the hotter side of Holden.
    They have 307kw out of the 6 litre engine.
    We have 3 grades of fuel down here, 91ron,95ron,98ron and you can also get a e100 ron as well.
    Commodore has won Car of the Year here from Wheels Magazine, check the site as well.
    It may be a little heavy, but boy does it handle beautifully.
    You can thrash it like crazy and it refuses to get upset.
    The interior is fantastic and Commodore seats have always been great.
    I'm sure if you place your order, you can get it anyway you want.
    Don't want bonnet scopes, then order the SS bonnet.
    Want a bigger rear spoiler, then order the SS one.
    I really don't see why you can't just order a left drive SS if you want.
    They are going through the same factory as the G8, so it shouldn't be a hassle for them to do this.
    As for the design, it is all new.
    It was drawn up 10 years ago.
    Simcoe had a big hand in it.
    He did the Monaro.
    He now is in charge of design over there I think.
    Guys, trust me on this, you are going to love this car.
    It is way better than the Monaro.
    I can't wait to see them racing soon in the V8 Supercar series and thrashing those old Fords :)
    Here's a tip, run it on the highest octane fuel you can get.
    Here we pay about $1:05 for the 91 grade per litre, $1:12 for 95, $1:15 for 98.
    I use 95 on mine and it hammers :)
    I won't touch the 91 fuel, it's crap.
    You guys have 87? terrible if that's true.
    You should hear one of these new Commodores with extractors (Headers?) and a Superflow exhaust on it.
    Filthy!
    Some guy taped it at the LS1.com.au site, check it out.
    Anyway, enough for now, enjoy your new toy, you'll love it.
    ps the HSV does a 5sec 0 to 60mph, quick enough for you,lol.
  • walterquintwalterquint Member Posts: 89
    I read the Astra is actually SHORTER than the Ion it replaces. Meantime, the Civic gets bigger every new cycle. Will the Astra compete with the Honda Fit???.......Saturn should retain the Ecotec four for the Astra. It will retain American jobs, plus it's a superb engine........I don't see the Astra as a Civic-beater. Just seems like a rebadged Euro econobox, designed for narrow European roads.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The octane number in the US at the retail pumps is based and the average of the motor method and the research (RON) method. So your numbers if they are pure RON numbers should be higher. Our highest grade premium is 93, which is probably the equivalent of 98 RON.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    From my 67 price guide:
    base price $3000
    4 speed transmission $200
    A/C $350
    radio $100
    brakes $40
    steering $100
    basic group $100
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Photo%20Library/HFV6/- - 07%203.6L%20V6%20LY7%20G6%20LoR2.jpg
    http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Photo%20Library/HVV6/- - 07%203.6L%20V6%20LY7%20ACD%20LoR.jpg

    It seems quite obvious to me that the difference is in the intake manifold design. The arcadia looks taller to me. In any case the torque is very similar, with the extra horsepower coming from higher speeds. The torque is greater, as a result of tuning, at higher speeds. Above 5000 RPMs there is more torque, and more horsepower. I am guessing that the big crossover SUV things have more space under the hood for a taller engine.
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