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Comments
The Buick brand has a sterling niche in China, similar to our regard for Lexus here.
This perception seems to have survived as a cultural memory for 50+ years.
Too bad that America needs help from French to take on Japan.
I thought porsche was the most profitable car company in the world ?
Rocky :shades:
The Buick brand has a sterling niche in China, similar to our regard for Lexus here.
In part, I'd say that having decades of anti-western communism almost froze things in time for Chinese consumers, making them receptive to western products when the barriers started to fall, and allowing them to tap into their collective nostalgia when choosing brands. The new consumer class had a pent-up demand for anything that made them feel fashionable and successful, attributes they associate with the west. And the car has a particularly powerful allure, one of the ultimate symbols of success.
But it goes beyond that. To give credit to GM, it has made a point of aiming for the executive market, which both commands higher prices and gives American-style cars an advantage because they are roomier in the back where the executives are riding. It's funny that GM has even packaged its Chinese-market minivans to serve this group, giving the passengers individual video screens, leather interiors, etc. to wrap them in luxury.
It will be interesting to see whether GM will go the distance there, and what it all means. I'm sure that FIAT felt pretty good about its investments in the Soviet Union until the Kremlin decided that they could use their factories to build Lada's without their help...
Ghosn 4 Prez
Rocky
A merger, I guess wouldn't hurt GM. How can things get worse (famous last words)? It would effectively add a whole lot of debt load to Renault and Nissan. Looked up GM again on the Quicken website. They show the intrinsic value of GM as N/A. The total debt/equity of 15.31 and long term debt/equity of 17.96. Seems to me they are buying into debt. Could consider the research and distribution system, or whatever, but bottom line is they are buying something negative net-net. Well, unless I am missing something here....
-Loren
GM's reputation in China is a big asset in this merger.
The Chinese market doubles every 4-5 years at a 14-18% growth rate. Sales in China will do wonders to increase volume and lower costs for any company that has a solid presence there.
Yes - Monte is likely gone in a year, or two. Needed is the RWD Malibu. No not the econo rectangular, yet efficient boring one of today, but a cooler looking one. I like the look of the '68--'70 if they consider a little retro to throw into the mix. I know, the coupes were not efficient. Don't care - luv'em. They could share a chassis with a Nova III. Heck, get a Nova SS out into the market place. The Camaro, cartoon car can wait. Is it not 2010 for that one anyway?
The original was sweet. Who wouldn't want a 1969 Camaro? The new one looks heavy, wide, plump, small window, extra lines thrown in for the heck of it. Best they stop and think before proceeding. The Challenger seemed to be the biggest hit. It looked the closest to the original car. I am not too big on retro / replica cars though. Best to use some new drawings, with a hint of the old days not being anything bad. Do you go to car shows to view all the replica cars? Blahhh! While on the subject, it is always good to see original cars, as compared to Fords with Chevy 350s in them. For practical reasons, I am sure it makes sense though to put something new in there if you are driving the car a lot. And, it may make perfect sense to do so. But, if a person has the money and can preserve the car like it came from the factory, what a blessing that is for those that behold the car in years to come.
:shades:
Don't understand why they picked a 1969 model to retro. There were better years for Camaro style decades ago.
Would agree that cartoon Camaro concept looks wide, heavy, plump, has extra lines, creases that don't belong.
Saw picture of Challenger from Vanishing Point in a car magazine lately. It really was not that good looking of a car. The GM and Ford ponies had better design back then. The Challenger actually looked awkward in the profile shot in magazine. Think that Vanishing was only movie that used Challenger or Barracuda. GM and Ford ponies were in a lot of movies.
Probably best Mopar was 68 Charger like in the Dukes or Bullit. That is "the" car (in black) that Chrysler should have brought back as retro.
-Loren
Then history repeated itself in my mind when the '82 came out -- that huge wraparound rear window looked quite good.
Rocky
Think of the mid-sixties mid-sized cars, like the Fairlane 500, with staked headlamps, then compare it to todays CTS. It's a modern day version of that era.
-Loren
Rocky
Actually, I've driven both, and while RWD is nice, it's just a woefully underpowered car. The Lucerne is much quicker and only gets slightly worse mileage(neither are Civics). The HP may not be a whole lot more, but let's review HP and Torque:
HP:This is a calculated number based upon the Torque and the gearing. High HP means the car can go very fast.
Torque: How powerful the engine is. High torque means quick acceleration, at least until the gearing runs out(2 speed automatics from the 60s and 70s come to mind)
Now, optimally, they are somewhat near each other, but the fact is that ANY car with more than 200HP will run about the same in normal day-to-day driving. Even a Porsche Boxter is only a second or so faster 0-60 than a Camry. Now, the Prosche will go 150mph, to be sure, but if you never speed excessively, it's wasted. The smart thing to do, then, is to keep HP at about the same numbers and start raising torque. The GM 3.6 comes to mind - it has a super flat torque curve, so it actually is quicker at all speeds and driving sytles than the 3.8, despite being a little lower in maximum HP and torque. To me, the 3.6 feels like a turbo-diesel. Loads of NOW type grunt for traffic.
That said, though, I'll take a small V8 over a large V6 anyday. And Northstar engines are easily as good as the 3800 engine as well.
A DTS with a bit different sheetmetal. If GM was smart, they would alter the design a bit more and rename the CXS the DTS. Buick DTS - the more frugal verson. Or Cadillac DTS - the more luxury version.
Me? I can so live without the Cadillac logo on the trunk. When you see three year old CXSs going for $15-18K, it's going to be the Roadmaster all over again. Nice car for very little money. Well... except this Buick isn't a disaster in the twisties.
Rocky
He won't wait to be fired: he won't have 'talks' with the new management.
He has a great rep in the business world and will have job offers as chairman and/or CEO elsewhere: probably not in the auto industry.
Rocky
The courtship of Renault-Nissan was initiated by Kerkorian, who owns 9.9 percent of GM, and Jerry York, Kerkorian's top adviser and a GM board member...
...Kerkorian's main objective appears to be to bring in Ghosn to speed up a restructuring of GM. People close to Kerkorian say he is dissatisfied with the pace of GM's recovery even though Wagoner has concluded landmark cost-cutting accords with the United Auto Workers union and deals to sell assets, such as GM's finance arm GMAC. Wagoner has laid out plans to downsize U.S. operations and is on track to cut 30,000 jobs two years ahead of schedule.
Translation: This is driven by a renegade shareholder and his board member, not by GM management. Wagoner is betting on cost-cutting, not revenue growth, as a way out (the downsizing reference), which illustrates exactly why he is wrong for GM.
Let's remember that for every car that GM doesn't sell that this car will be sold by someone else, which means that the rivals will get stronger while GM simultaneously gets weaker. The smaller that GM gets, the more likely it will be unable to mount a comeback, and Kerkorian knows it.
...GM executives have been scrambling to analyze whether the automaker could benefit from joining Renault-Nissan.
Henderson, who took over as GM's CFO in January, is heading a study group that includes finance specialists from the automaker's treasurer's office in New York.
In addition, GM's outside investment banks are also helping to compile data on Renault-Nissan in advance of Friday's board meeting.
"It's not unusual that we would ask our bank advisers to help gather facts and provide analysis when you're looking at such a complicated transaction," said GM official Toni Simonetti.
GM's directors will meet by conference call Friday to discuss Kerkorian's proposal that a board committee be formed "immediately" to study a deal with Renault-Nissan.
Wagoner is reacting by paying third-parties to generate "findings" that will shoot down the proposal. He's digging in for a fight, and hoping to buy time.
If I was Kerkorian and York, I'd be pushing Renault and Nissan to launch a preemptive strike by announcing ambitious product launch plans that could occur if Renault and Nissan invest their money. The analysts will love this, and Wagoner won't be in much position to say no without looking disingenuous.
This is corporate warfare at its best! Sit back, and enjoy the game.
With all the talk of GM-Chevy should do another '68 Bu or another 1st or 2nd gen Nova, do you really trust them to do it "right"? Just because something is V8 & RWD doesn't mean it's going to capture the soul of the original and be a hit (the latter-day GTO/Monaro comes to mind).
I think we'll see an Aveo SS before a "proper" Bu or Nova.
So between the workers taking the buy-outs (with the high numbers and fast response showing all is not right) and running, and with the deft of new engineering talent, I don't see how they are going to have good times ahead. I mean with Delphi, yes, they'll be able to trot along with the temps, but with the "revolving door" policy for the temps, no incentive for more experienced workers to apply and / or stay I don't see them becoming a major supplier powerhouse any time soon, particularly here in NA.
new product launch plans for GM? why should they be considered credible?
Because:
-Ghosn has an established track record of saving one automaker (Nissan) by using new, interesting products to generate sales
-Nissan and Renault have R&D to bring to the table that GM doesn't have. Most obvious, Nissan is a primary candidate for providing the guts and engineering that could be used by GM to introduce strong products into mainstream segments where it lags, and with minimal delay. At this point, time is of the essence.
-Nissan and Renault will bankroll it, assuming the majority of the risk. GM has sold off everything of value, and has no foreseeable plan to generate profits with its current product lineup. Some negotiation may be merited, but this is about the best deal that GM could ever hope to get in order to get a cash infusion.
Wall Street understands that cost cuts alone are not enough to repair GM. While Wagoner has made much ado about cost cutting, he has failed to provide a path to profitability, thanks to a lineup of vehicles that is largely out of synch with the marketplace. Ghosn has the means to fix this, while Wagoner doesn't even seem to recognize the problem.
I think that you are right about GM being out of touch with the market.
they can't really sell that many Zs
you never see a Maxima
The Altima is a hit, but.....is it really that great of an offering compared to its competitors?
Is Nissan really any more than the G35 coupe, which looks great and has plenty of power, but ain't that great of a car. No self-respecting BMW driver is ever gonna drive one.
Nissan's are cheap on the inside and have lousy seats. But they do look good on the outside and they do have power. I guess Ghosn figured out what really matters to the American consumer. All sizzle, no steak?
You can't argue with success, and the Altima has been a sales hit. That's a bread-and-butter car here for Nissan, and brings a lot of cash in the door and a lot of traffic into the showrooms.
Keys to its success are an attractive price point and unique styling that the main rivals can't provide. Another key success factor is that, like the US-version of the Accord and the US-only Camry, the Altima is made specifically for the US, and is larger than similar cars that it sells abroad. One reason that cars such as the Galant and Mazda 6 lag behind in sales is because those are made to be "world cars" in a world where sedans tend to be smaller than those that Americans prefer.
they can't really sell that many Zs
The Z has been a hit in its segment, although that segment is small. Overall, it's largely an image car that helps the would-be Maxima and Altima buyer feel better about his purchase. The family lineage most likely does more to sell non-Z cars than it does to sell Z's themselves. And since the platform is shared with the G35's, as well as other cars in the lineup, it can be made efficiently and profitably.
Ghosn did quite a bit for Nissan, you can't believe otherwise. It was very close to going under completely, so what he did was nothing short of miraculous. But I would argue that while GM is not as far from the abyss as was Nissan then, it also has far more problems, and Ghosn would have less time to fix them. This turnaround will be much, much harder to accomplish than was Nissan's, in my opinion.
Well "dad" said that he made a deal with his management. he is going to try to get this unmechanically inclined worker trained up by August 1st so he can get out of their. Dad, says he wants out of their very badly. He says it's not the same Delphi plant, and the new faces aren't as friendly as the old ones. He says their is alot of new story's about how many times "so and so" went to jail, One guy was worried if he would pass the drug screen, another talked about how his grandmother baught him cigarettes as a child so she would have someone to always have a smoke with. :surprise: He is running screw machines with 4 hours training at 60% scrap :surprise:
Dad says plant management is beginning to realize just how important these people were and are scared if things don't get better that heads are going to roll. Steve Millers head is going to roll before it's all over IMHO
Dad also said that he probably wouldn't want to buy a GM car for about 2 years because of the quality of Delphi parts. He said get the extended factory warranty since alot of these new hires don't have the same pride as him and the other veterans. Dad also said GM is making moves to further seperate itself from Delphi as the main supplier. He said Wagoner, and Miller, have a strong dislike for each other.
Dad however did like the idea of GM and Nissan coming togeather to form one huge company. He heard Nissan is exploring the idea of using GM's idle factory's to build products. I'd love to see Ghosn build Infinti G35's over here in the U.S. by UAW members. :shades:
GM also would have Nissan's halo car the GT-R. Myself would love the ability to use my GM discount on a UAW made Infiniti G35
"Now that would be awesome" :shades:
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Then history repeated itself in my mind when the '82 came out -- that huge wraparound rear window looked quite good.
I agree completely...did not like the 67 to 69. I bought an 84 with the big window and love the looks of that car.
Never had a problem with that car but I would never recommend one......felt like your bum was on the road, you felt every bump and it was not very solid. Not much noise insulation....pretty to look at but pretty crude, couldn't wait to get a normal car so got an 86 Celebrity...bucket seats in black it looked like a BMW.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The key word is "seems". The reason is with Mercedes it is luxury first (interior trim, door panels, elegance) and engineering a close 2nd. BMW engineering comes first, the luxury is a not even close 2nd.
Part of the charm is it is simple and logical...timeless, meaning the simplicity makes it elegant (doesn't need to be jazzed up).
Hope that explains it.
Note to M1: The Monte is an example of American design gone bad and extreme. It will be an example of bad design in 5 years if not now. Also, I agree with you 100% about the cartoon Camaro.
Other notes:
Saw a Kia Spectra today and it looks like a baby Impala, right down to the rear taillights. Maybe Kia should buy GM then they'll REALLY be the world's fastest growing car company.
Also was following a LaCrosse for a few miles. I think the rear lights came from the last edition of an Altima. Then I got to thinking, maybe Nissan made too many of those rear lens covers and Buick bought them at a good price. Just a theory.....
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
This I don't understand either. What was great about the Nova? Little windows, fastback styling with poor rear vision, they sputtered, were slow steering, saggy seats.
I was teaching driving to high school students and they were the worst, I preferred Valiants and Darts and even Mavericks to those Novas. Can we close the book on Novas?
I do think a Super Bee retro would be the best if we have to start bringing old cars back. On this topic, the PT Cruiser was unique and a fun idea, but isn't this getting a little boring, T-Birds, SST's Challengers.....is life that bad we have to keep going back to the 60's?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I also believe that Ghosn can reduce millions in costs without firing everybody and their brother like Wagoner, Ford, Dr. Z. :mad:
Rocky
Understand. I just don't see Nissan wanting all the union baggage from GM. Are any of Nissan's plants here union? They sure aren't union at Smyrna.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The share structure at Ford (voting shares owned by family) make it hard for an outside CEO/Chairman to wield much influence.
Ghosn has made several successful turnarounds in the past but I expect he wants to do it on his own terms.
The 60's had some great designs. Cool looking cars. And no do NOT bring back the 60's cars. The new cars need not be replica cars. Size, purpose, a few style hints won't hurt, good value, as in good V6 like the 3.6 is said to be, and ya got it. Today's reborn Chevy. I say at least some of the cars should be RWD - especially the performance ones, with at least something like the Nova, so that us poor folk have a RWD too. That said, lowering the CTS prices to something more reasonable could do the trick.
The Chrysler 300 is not a retro car of the 60's, but it brought back the RWD, with two good options for powerplants, and new looking car. The Impala is now a classic, extra large Accord. It looks OK, but seems to be an import clone in a way. Some may say it is better looking than the Accord, while other may say not as good. But why is it even close?
A Dart would be an excellent choice to bring back, compared to the Dodge Stratus that looks like a Japan make. And no clones, or replica cars, but rather a fresh look, minus the too tall doors and overall beltline theme. And please no wagon wheels! Talk about getting old fast! Try buying wagon wheel sized tires without a loan! And what is up with this little windows and tall doors?
Another idea for the Camaro would be to make it something totally different. A lightweight, V6 powered, 32MPG with 250HP car, with fresh looks, like the Solstice or something like a British Aston Martin or something, but with more window space
-Loren
Good idea.......taking ideas from great older cars but making completely new versions, like the 300. This is more interesting and leads to better designs.
Big round tail lights like on 59 Fords and bullets on the hood of the 57 Chevy. I'd like to see a roof pillar like the 56 Ford Crown Victorias...a wide strip that goes right over the roof.
And I agree a good Nova size car but completely new design. Rear wheel drive, smooth conservative styling, and made solid to last.....with classic styling from the CTS theme.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Another factor to consider is what any deal would do to GM's product rollouts.
When Daimler and Chrysler merged, the resulting effort to sort through Chrysler's product plans put everything on hold at Chrysler. As new products were canceled, delayed or revamped, Chrysler took a nosedive, and has only recently begun to recover.
GM cannot afford this sort of delay. Remember, Chrysler was making money when Daimler took control. GM has been gushing red ink. Any hiatus in new product rollout could ultimately sink the company (although, ironically, it may benefit Ford and Chrysler by giving them a breather).
And I don't see this as racist at all. Come on guys. Just imagine if tomorrow, in Japan, Toyota is the one sick and GM is poised to become the no.1 car maker in Japan. Do you think the Japanese, well known for their deep Nationalist feelings and behaviour, will sit still and celebrate GM's upcoming coronation ?
I even suspect that Nissan got trouble beating Toyota in Japan is because Toyota and Honda are both 100% true blooded Japanese companies, whereas Nissan is today 44% owned by a French company. Not all Japanese buy cars thinking about this of course, but I bet some do.
Anyone who knows Japanese will realize how Nationalist they are. When overseas they stick to Japanese restaurants, Japanese supermarkets. They are very proud of their country and culture.
And if GM one day breathes down Toyota's neck in Japan, I think Toyota and Honda will merge to block GM. Its a normal human trait, and an understandable one. And Kirk chose Ghosn, not Ford, because Ford is in some trouble herself. Moreover Ghosn's turnaround expertise is well known. That is why I don't see Kirk inviting Toyota.
Anyway, the way Toyota and Honda reacted to the early days of the Renault-Nissan alliance, they will not bother even if invited.
Same with other countries like the French, who are also known for being proud of their country and culture. If tomorrow GM is poised to overthrow Renault or Peugeot as no.1 in France, do you think they will sit still and keep quiet ?
Trust me, most citizens of the world want to see their countrymen, their own country's company occupy the top position in any industry. Given the options, how many will be happy to see a foreign company take over the crown ?
Once again, this is NOT racist. I bet my life the Japanese will react even more strongly IF GM is threatening Toyota back in Japan.
Think about that. And if GM can recover with Nissan and Renault, I see nothing wrong with that. Yet I see news of Rick appearing to want to challenge this alliance. Unless in the upcoming meeting Ghosn can convince him that no matter what happened, Rick will either stay on, or get a golden parachute. More likely the former.
Chrysler did bring back a RWD car the size of the Dart. It's called a 300. The only difference is that, in that late 60's a car that was around 196" long was a compact. Today it's a full-size! :surprise: FWIW, those old late 60's Novas were about the size of a current Impala.
In the Dodge/Chrysler lineup, I almost don't see a need for a direct replacement for the Stratus/Sebring sedans. The 300 and Charger are actually a bit smaller inside than the Intrepid and 300M they replaced, and considerably smaller than the old Concorde/LHS. They're really not THAT much bigger inside than a Stratus or Sebring.
So with the Dodge Caliber closing in on the smaller end, but being a bit bigger, inside and out, than the Neon, and the 300/Charger moving down a notch in size and interior room (but definitely NOT weight) a Stratus/Sebring-sized car almost seems like it would get squeezed out. But maybe they do need something in their lineup that's lightweight enough to get by with a 4-cyl engine, for CAFE reasons?
I wish Chevy could find a way to spruce up the Malibu some. At least, with the '06 restyle, I don't think it's ugly anymore, but it's still kinda dull. I think any RWD Chevelle/Malibu from days gone by is actually more exciting to look at!
So Ghosn simply shut down some plants (even inside Japan - now that was a first), trashed the contracts with the suppliers and sold a whole lot of unrelated stuff to clear bank debt. In fact, there was some talk in the media that Nissan Management knew what to do, but could not bring themseleves to take painful decisions (a typical failing with large Japanese companies), and therefore had to engineer a crisis to help the decision making.
GM is different - They have a product which is not competitive, on top of the unsustainable cost base. Ghosn can take care of the latter, it is the former that will be difficult to deal with.
To put things in perspective, the CTS starts at $30K with the 2.8 engine, which is a bit better than a base 2.7 in the Chrysler, no doubt. Something tells me the 2.7 would not be a good engine for the 300 --reliability and performance wise.
Thanks for the info. Those Darts never looked that big, but they sure as heck, in today's world, were a full sized car. How about a mini- Dart, Nova, Falcon then? I guess what I was actually looking for was more the size of a BMW3 car.
-Loren
When folks say bring back a Dart model I recall the Dart from earlier times as a straight line car with the appearance of the Malibu or the previous Civic--the window line runs straight from hood to trunk. Is that the style you're wanting back or is it a different Dart? I recall the 6-cylinder slant Dart a friend had long ago-black over yellow IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
YES! I believe America itself peaked on July 20, 1969 when we landed men on the moon and it has been a slow ride downhill since that accelerated with the 1973 Arab Oil Embargo. The cars peaked in 1970 and have gone dramatically downhill since. Geeze, just look at a gorgeous 1970 Chevrolet Malibu and the bland joke of 2006. Heck, look at how beautiful a 1970 Impala is compared to today's retro-Lumina. There is very little I would miss about today other than the Internet, cable TV, and VCRs/DVDs. Sometimes I wish I could jump in a time machine, go back to 1955 and stay there so I could be dead by the time I got to 2006. There would be very little to miss after 1970.
Today's performance cars easily top those of the Muscle Car era with respect to straight-line acceleration and top speed, with much better handling and braking to boot. Too bad GM isn't sharing all that much in these good times.
I have a feeling it will all come crashing down soon, a repeat of 1971-73 as oil prices pass $100 per barrel.
OTOH, some of us of a certain age can argue that the "music died" when JFK was shot on Nov. 22, 1963.
For every "gorgeous" 1970 Malibu (I like the '65 Malibu; the '70 is butt-ugly), there was an ugly Matador or Torino lurking around the corner. Even the gorgeous cars had shameful handling, worse fuel economy, and horrible brakes. Technologically, domestic cars hadn't advanced a bit in 20 years and would have to wait another 10 years before they made even tentative steps toward parity with their overseas competition. On top of that, domestic design and build quality was already well on its way into the toilet and wouldn't make any kind of meaningful recovery for another three decades (if then). There is plenty of that old crap out there if you want to relive a past that never existed.
Now what foreign brands were technologically advanced over 1970 cars that year? Is it possible that is "want to relive a past that never existed."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,