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Because the similarity between G6, Aura and the new Malibu is much greater than Camry/Avalon and Highlander/RX350. They are similar priced (especially G6 and Malibu with Aura a little bit more upscale) and they all compete in the SAME MARKET SEGMENT. By the way, the FWD Impala has the tendency to steal sales from Malibu as well then according to your Camry/Avalon example.
In fact, longer powertrain warranty, once in a year oil change, standard safety features are kind of things that GM can use to win customers back. Also, make Chevy the coolest name around. Still, there are so many Chevy lovers waiting to see Chevy roll out some dream-machines.
I don't think I could let a car go 10,000 miles or a year without an oil change regardless of what the manufacturer says.
The most important piece of information in that single post...
According to credible industry insiders on cheersandgears.com, GM had the entire Pontiac division on review last year. Work on all new products had stopped, except for the G6, and the future of the Pontiac brand was in doubt. These two posters - evok and AH-HA - have been correct in the past, so I place a great deal of credence in their posts.
Note that the G8 is a simple rebadge job, which hardly spells a great deal of commitment on GM's part to the Pontiac brand. I have heard, however, that there will be a next-generation G6 (on the rear-wheel-drive Alpha platform), so there may be hope for the Pontiac brand.
1487: Since the G6 is soing well and the G8 is on the way next year it seems kind of unlikely that Pontiac is close to being phased out.
I would like to see what percentage of those G6s went to Hertz, Alamo and Avis. Every G6 I've seen here has a rental car bar sticker on the back.
Last time I checked, over 30 percent of G6s went to fleet customers. When a car's sales jump that much in one month, without a significant refresh - as the G6's did in February - I wonder what is the real cause of the increased sales.
And please don't respond with "GM has cut fleet sales." Note that GM never breaks out the fleet sales for particular models. GM could very well have cut fleet sales for the corporation AS A WHOLE, while still increasing sales of the G6 to fleets.
I want to know both the raw number and the percentage of G6 sales that went to fleet customers.
Good for you.
But GM is in car business to make a profit and not in to make rare and unique cars which won't sell (I am NOT talking about Aura here, just in general). If GM has a class leader like Camry I am pretty sure they'll be more than happy to go with the one-midsize lineup. Because this case the R&D and production cost will be reduced thus increase in profit.
The Olds Intrigue was rare and unique.
So, for that matter, were 1964 Studebakers.
You have to be careful that "rare and unique" doesn't become a prelude to "going out of business."
The G6's sales most likely increased in February because Gm was offering bettwe incentives on many models earlier this year. GM is not trying to boost car lines with fleet sales.
The Impala's overall sales have been up recently even though fleet sales are down. People always have an excuse for every GM model that is doing OK in the market.
BTW, where are you getting your G6 fleet numbers from? Gm doesnt breakdown fleet sales on a model by model basis in press releases. How do you know 30% of G6's are fleet?
There will be a next gen G6 but I do not know if it will be FWD or RWD. The G8 may be a "rebadge" but its still a new product on a new platform and it will likely be produced in NA in the future. There is also a new Vibe coming out and possible a GTO. Maybe Pontiac's status was examined recently, but I wouldnt bet on their demise.
R&D may be affected by multiple brands to some degree but I dont know that more brands equals lesser cars. GM's vehicles werent as good as they could've been due to GM's design and engineering processes, not due to having too many vehicles. If your processes are bad, it doesnt matter how few models you make. If you think the world would be better if GM sold 800k Impalas instead of offering 5 difference midsize cars that is your choice. I dont want that to happen. The Impala is a nice car, but it's not what I want.
BTW, the camry is the sales leader, I dont know if its the class leader. That remains open to debate.
I know, my parents have one. The car got great reviews when it was new. The press liked the car, but obviosuly GM wasnt satisfied with the sales levels. I dont get your point.
There are tons of cars on the market that sell in lesser numbers than comparable GM models but people seem to be oblivious to that. The 3 was outsold by the cobalt last year but people dont go aroudn saying "Mazda needs to get their act together because the 3 isnt the best seller in the segment". The Sonata, 6, Passat, etc. do not sell in the volume of GM's top midsize cars. In fact, the Sonata's sales last year were very close to that of the G6. The Mazda 6 and Fusion have been well received by the press and neither of them is close to the Camry or Accord in sales. Especially not the 6. You are arguing that GM models that dont have top tier sales could be a sign their brands should be terminated but the bottom line is the only midsizers that rack up huge 30k a month sales are Accord and Camry. Not Fusion, 6, Sonata, Passat, Sebring or even Altima. The Impala outsold every midsize sedan except Accord and Camry last year and is doing better this year.
When the latest fleet figures are published, we will know for sure. Please show me the actual numbers. Until then, "as far as you know" is not sufficient.
1487: To say that GM as a whole is decreasing fleet sales BUT the G6 is an exception is a mightly bold assumption that cant be backed up.
Not necessarily. It is hardly beyond the realm of possibility for GM to decrease fleet sales of some models while increasing the sales of other models.
1487: If the G6 was being pumped into fleets I'm sure it's sales would be much higher than they are now.
The G6 has been "pumped into fleets" for a few years now.
1487: BTW, where are you getting your G6 fleet numbers from? Gm doesnt breakdown fleet sales on a model by model basis in press releases. How do you know 30% of G6's are fleet?
They were from a site named fleet-central.com. The site has been referenced on this site numerous times, as well as on other automotive websites (blueovalnews.com, cheersandgears.com, etc.).
The latest figures I saw were for the first half of 2006, and it showed that 42.3 percent of G6 sales through June 2006 were to fleet customers (mostly rental car companies).
So I was being generous when I pegged the fleet-sale figure at around 30 percent.
And, for reference, the new Malibu (not the old "Classic" model) was at 60.3 percent fleet sales; the Cobalt was at 33.8 percent; and the Impala was at 54.8 percent (although this includes a fair number sold to police agencies and other government units, which do not drive down resale values as sales to rental car companies do).
The point is that being "rare and unique" is not necessarily a good thing in the family sedan market.
You can see the point I am making by attempting to buy a 2007 Intrigue...
1487: The 3 was outsold by the cobalt last year but people dont go aroudn saying "Mazda needs to get their act together because the 3 isnt the best seller in the segment".
Mazda has a much smaller dealer body and a lower breakeven point than Chevrolet. Plus, the 3 sells at a higher price point than the Cobalt.
Nobody expects every car to be the best seller in a segment (that would be impossible). But, mass-market cars - and the Aura is one, don't kid yourself - cannot survive by being "rare and unique." They have to sell at a certain volume to begin generating a profit, which is the name of the game for GM and every other manufacturer.
"The G6 has been "pumped into fleets" for a few years now. "
Based on what? You see a few g6s at the airport and you feel that proves that the car is being supported by rental sales. That isnt good enough. If you know something concrete about G6 fleet sales, let us know. In Feb. 2007 the G6's retail sales were up 45% and overall sales were up 15% which means that rental sales were down.
I have heard of that site. The info is old and unsubtantiated. On top of that, according to that site a LOT of cars rely heavily on fleet sales and most of them are not GM products. There were hyundai's, Kia's and Ford/DC models that were just as dependent on fleet sales according to that site. The G6 had some very strong months last year and it's very likely that its strongest months were boosted by fleet sales. I believe it got close to 20k units one month which is MUCH higher than Jan. or Feb. 2007. Point is, the G6 is selling at a lower rate so far this year which would indicate to a logical person that they have backed of fleet sales. If they went gangbusters with the rentals they could probably sell over 200k G6s in a year.
Based on the figures I cited, which ARE good enough for the industry.
1487: I have heard of that site. The info is old and unsubtantiated.
I agree that the information is old (which is why I was careful to point out that it is for the first half of 2006). If anyone has newer information, I would be happy to view it.
As for the information being "unsubstantiated" - nonsense. I have yet to see ANYONE on any site (and the information has been posted on numerous other automotive sites) debunk it.
1487: On top of that, according to that site a LOT of cars rely heavily on fleet sales and most of them are not GM products. There were hyundai's, Kia's and Ford/DC models that were just as dependent on fleet sales according to that site.
And when did I ever deny that?
1487: If they went gangbusters with the rentals they could probably sell over 200k G6s in a year.
Well, I consider over 40 percent of sales to fleets (and for a relatively new model, to boot) to be going "gangbusters with rentals."
Maybe GM is selling a smaller percentage of G6s to fleet customers. I would like to see SOLID information, not conjecture based on what people think they know, because a significant number of G6 sales were sold to rental car companies in the not-too-distant past. If someone has proof, I'd love to read it. That is all that I am saying.
Loren
"Well, I consider over 40 percent of sales to fleets (and for a relatively new model, to boot) to be going "gangbusters with rentals." "
Unless that is happening today I dont see the point in bringing that up. I just said retail sales were up 45% which proves that rental sales are down significantly. This isnt conjecture (dont know where you got that) since it comes straight from the GM press release. Perhaps in your area G6 sales mirror what you saw on the site, but I assure you my sightings do not support the "40% of G6's are rentals" statement. I probably see 4 or more G6s a day and few of them are rentals.
Loren
wrong, the aura does not have to sell in large numbers because it shares a platform with two other high volume cars. GM isnt losing money if the Aura only sells 5K units a month because the majority of the Aura's components came from existing (or future) GM vehicles. GM can scale back Aura production (I believe they have already) and allocate more line resources to the new Malibu if it does well. Saturn is not a major volume brand at this point in time. As I said, they have less than 500 dealers which is nothing compared to Chevy, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, etc. Saturn would be lucky if it could get close to Honda in volume, forget about the bigger players in the market. Only Chevy is big enough to go head to head with Toyota, Ford and Nissan in terms of volume.
"Mazda has a much smaller dealer body and a lower breakeven point than Chevrolet. Plus, the 3 sells at a higher price point than the Cobalt. "
Not relevant to your orginal point. You were stating that low volume cars are not a good sign for GM brands. I am saying the 3 and 6 are not high volume cars and yet they are widely liked and respected by consumers and the press. Same goes for Passat and Jetta. Regardless of what you say about the Cobalt, there are only two compacts that outsold it last year. You say sales are good, but not when talking about GM products. WHen a GM product doesnt do well you're all over it, but when a GM product does OK you are quick to talk about fleet sales and transaction prices. In other words, GM sales need a disclaimer attached to discredit them.
While I disagree with his point as well, and agree that he is pretty much biased against GM in this instance, he makes a very valid point in regards to volume and break-even point. The number of sales for the cobalt to break even in terms of fixed costs is probably MUCH higher than that of Mazda and the Mazda3. Most of that internal data is unknown to the public (and probably varies between the 2 companies because most internal accounting isn't done to GAAP and FCC standards) and therefore no real inferences can be made.
I sound like a textbook. :P
No, you gave figures on the direction of retail sales, which does not contain hard figures for what percentage went to fleet customers.
Also, the figures you gave are for one month (February). One month is largely meaningless. My figures are for half a year, which is a better indicator of how many G6s go to fleet customers.
1487: Unless that is happening today I dont see the point in bringing that up. I just said retail sales were up 45% which proves that rental sales are down significantly.
For one month, which is largely meaningless, and is easily distorted by increased incentives, or even whether last February was an exceptionally bad month.
Let's check back in July to see how things went for the first half of 2007. That is a better indication of the car's sales appeal.
Sure, it doesn't have to sell 300,000 units a year. But, as I recall, GM set a goal of about 75,000 sales annually, and so far the car isn't meeting that goal, based on its sales rate since introduction.
1487: GM isnt losing money if the Aura only sells 5K units a month because the majority of the Aura's components came from existing (or future) GM vehicles.
I hope so, but note that Oldsmobiles shared a large number of components with other GM cars (except for the ohc engines in the Intrigue and Aurora), and that wasn't enough to save the division.
1487: Not relevant to your orginal point. You were stating that low volume cars are not a good sign for GM brands.
Yes it is relevant. I said that low-volume cars are not a good sign for GM brands. I seem to recall that you brought Mazda into the discussion.
I would wager that GM has higher fixed costs than Mazda, so it either has to command more money for the same product, or sell lots more of the product.
I would expect the Cobalt to outsell the Mazda3, based on Chevy's dealer network and the car's pricepoint. That does not mean that it is necessarily more successful - or more importantly - more profitable than the Mazda3.
1487: Regardless of what you say about the Cobalt, there are only two compacts that outsold it last year.
And remember that over 30 percent of Cobalts went to fleet customers last year.
1487: WHen a GM product doesnt do well you're all over it, but when a GM product does OK you are quick to talk about fleet sales and transaction prices. In other words, GM sales need a disclaimer attached to discredit them.
First, please show me where I have been "all over" a GM car for not doing well. It's best not to make generalizations.
Of course, many GM sales reports definitely need a disclaimer. On that we can agree.
I do not consider a car a success when 30-40 percent of production is dumped on fleets, whether it is made by GM, Hyundai or Honda.
Hyundai is guilty of this as well, but the last time I checked, this discussion was about GM.
Honda doesn't do this.
If GM is artificially boosting sales by selling a large percentage of production to fleet customers, then it is fair to call them out on it, especially when GM is crowing about a vehicle's increased sales in its press releases.
Generally, it's not best to get one's talking points from company press releases.
Your figures are pointless because they are nearly a year old and because GM just started its retial sales focus strategy in early 2006. I bet you will see a big drop off in G6 sales between the early months of 2006 and late 2006. You stated that 30% of G6 sales are fleet right now but we have no proof of that. Since the G6's sales of late have been a significantly lower than it's best months of 2006 I would tend to think it's pretty clear that the fleet sales are down.
I can get the info on January sales as well. I'm sure retail sales were up that month as well. I can go evern further back if you want. I didnt mean to suggest that February was the first time G6 retail sales increased and fleet sale went down.
Gm never set a sales goal for the Aura or any other new model. I'm not sure where you got that figure from.
Let me get this straight: You are proposing that Saturn is in danger of being closed down because the Aura isnt a big seller. I am willing to bet your salary that Saturn isnt going anywhere after the big infusion of product it got. I think you are overreacting to the Aura's sales so far. Its a new nameplate sold by a brand that has no history of competent midsize cars.
"I would wager that GM has higher fixed costs than Mazda, so it either has to command more money for the same product, or sell lots more of the product. "
I'm pretty sure GM sells more midsize sedans than Mazda by a siginificant margin. Same for small cars. Remember, the cobalt and Ion combined for well over 300k units last year. The 3 is going to be more profitable than any cobalt because Mazda isn't paying $1500 a car for retiree benefits. Of course the Cobalt isnt making GM a ton of money.
"And remember that over 30 percent of Cobalts went to fleet customers last year. "
Where is that figure coming from? I would like to know. Keep in mind you are saying 30% for the ENTIRE year, not half the year.
"If GM is artificially boosting sales by selling a large percentage of production to fleet customers, then it is fair to call them out on it, especially when GM is crowing about a vehicle's increased sales in its press releases. "
GM got 79% of their sales from retail outlets in Feb. While that is low compared to Honda I think its more than competitive with Nissan and Toyota and much better than Ford and DC. I dont know how that counts as "inflating" sales numbers. Are you saying fleet sales don't count as sales? I would like Toyota to break out its retail sales because I am seeing fleet Tacomas all over. Toyota also sells Siennas, Camrys and Corollas to fleets. BTW, company's can get in trouble for knowingly lying in press releases so I tend to believe the data in those releases is accurate. I believe Toyota press releases as well. Where do you propose we get sales info if we don't believe what each manufacturer releases each month? Oh, let me guess- Fleetcentral.com right?
Loren
I have no doubt they will make the 60K and then some. But I bet the mix will be much more heavily-tilted towards the XR and away from the base models than they expected. Of course, that's a good thing for profits! :-)
This and next will be VERY VERY good years for Saturn. I hope they are getting to work on the next evolution of their hybrid system as we speak, better yet 12 months ago!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Do we call them out on it if those fleet sales are to corporations and municipalities that USE these vehicles as opposed to rental car companies? I believe if fleet sales are due to these factors (somebody mentioned Impalas as police cruisers) that is a positive thing. Remember, police officers, cab drivers, utility company workers, etc. work in these vehicles 8,10,16 hrs a day as opposed to driving them for a couple hrs a day on vacation. My work truck, a '95 GMC 3500 cube van, "only" has 110,000 miles on it, but the engine idles at the worksite from 7am to 3pm for the beacon and warning lights. I'm sure that when Verizon wholesales it when it gets retired, it will STILL command about $5-7,000 retail as a utility truck for a carpenter or plumber. I think THAT is saying something.
As I said, one month does not a trend make. Nor does two months.
We'll check this out in July 2007, and again in January 2008.
1487: As I said, GM doesnt tell you the exact % of retial sales per model but overall GM's sales were about 80% retial. I would think the older models (Malibu, Cobalt) are not that high.
And Fleet-central did, and will tell us again if they publish more figures in July 2007 (for the first six months of this year). And even if GM's retail sales have recently been 80 percent of its total sales, that doesn't mean that the G6's sales have had the same breakdown.
1487: Your figures are pointless because they are nearly a year old and because GM just started its retial sales focus strategy in early 2006.
No, you specifically said that the G6 was not sold in large numbers to fleet customers, and I proved that as of June 2006, GM was propping up its sales in this way. My figures are not pointless. (And one year ago is hardly ancient history in the automobile business.)
And I doubt that its fleet sales percentages have dropped dramatically since that that time, but we shall see.
I've seen it on cheersandgears.com and gminsidenews.com. And GM has set a sales goal for the Aura, as ANY auto company does for any new product. GM may not have announced those goals publicly, but that doesn't mean that credible insiders haven't laid out GM's sales goals for the car.
1487: Let me get this straight: You are proposing that Saturn is in danger of being closed down because the Aura isnt a big seller. I am willing to bet your salary that Saturn isnt going anywhere after the big infusion of product it got. I think you are overreacting to the Aura's sales so far. Its a new nameplate sold by a brand that has no history of competent midsize cars.
Well, I don't want Saturn to go under, but please note that Olds went away just after its "big infusion of product." In fact, GM made the announcement it was phasing out Olds while it was holding the long-lead press previews for the all-new Bravada.
1487: I'm pretty sure GM sells more midsize sedans than Mazda by a siginificant margin. Same for small cars. Remember, the cobalt and Ion combined for well over 300k units last year. The 3 is going to be more profitable than any cobalt because Mazda isn't paying $1500 a car for retiree benefits. Of course the Cobalt isnt making GM a ton of money.
"Selling more" and "making money" are not necessarily synonomous. GM outsells Honda both globally and in the United States...which one has been more profitable over the past three years?
1487: Where is that figure coming from? I would like to know. Keep in mind you are saying 30% for the ENTIRE year, not half the year.
You are correct that I only have figures for the first half of 2006. But I doubt that the figure dropped dramatically for the second half of 2006...we shall see.
1487: Are you saying fleet sales don't count as sales?
They are less profitable, and less of a challenge. Selling 25,000 cars to RETAIL customers is tougher than selling 50,000 cars to Avis.
1487: I would like Toyota to break out its retail sales because I am seeing fleet Tacomas all over. Toyota also sells Siennas, Camrys and Corollas to fleets.
Toyota is about 10-12 percent fleet. Honda is at about 1-2 percent.
1487: BTW, company's can get in trouble for knowingly lying in press releases so I tend to believe the data in those releases is accurate.
When you've read enough press releases, you'll learn that a company doesn't have to lie to hide the bad news. That is why PR writers get paid the big bucks. Trust me.
1487: Where do you propose we get sales info if we don't believe what each manufacturer releases each month? Oh, let me guess- Fleetcentral.com right?
Absolutely...at least then we will be getting credible information.
I mentioned Impalas being used as police cruisers, so I've already covered that. And the Pontiac G6 - the original subject of this discussion - is NOT being used as a police cruiser. Most of its fleet sales are to rental car companies.
cooterbfd: My work truck, a '95 GMC 3500 cube van, "only" has 110,000 miles on it, but the engine idles at the worksite from 7am to 3pm for the beacon and warning lights. I'm sure that when Verizon wholesales it when it gets retired, it will STILL command about $5-7,000 retail as a utility truck for a carpenter or plumber. I think THAT is saying something.
Very true...but GM (along with Ford) already dominates the truck market. If you were trying to sell a well-used G6 or Cobalt, the experience wouldn't be nearly so positive. GM is struggling to regain market share in the passenger-car market, not the truck market.
Really? Do you have any data? I have seen the data on GM vehicles and there is huge cross shopping between models in the same division but different sizes. Come on, do you really think that everyone walks into a Honda dealership and says "I am here to look at an Accord and do not have any interest in the Civic"? Not everyone knows all about what they want to buy when they decide to buy a car. They go to the Honda website and look at the vehicles.
http://www.carspace.com/autoobserver/Albums/Saturn/saturn_xshop.gif/page/photo.h- tml?@guest@
Look closely at the attached data chart from Edmunds. Someone cross shopped a Civic and an Accord with the Aura! Perhaps they are considering the Civic and the Accord also! Unfortunately there is no data on cross shopping that I can find in the public forum but I assure you there is very strong cross shopping between cars in the same showroom. Just the way it is.
What did they give me?
Cavalier's, Malibu's, Classics, LeSabres (not really terrible if you like feeling like your in the Titanic boat while driving), Kia's, and Accents.
They were all pretty bad in some way or another, often times bad in many ways.
Exception:
When I had a Corolla and Civic rental. Those cars were dynamite!
I don't know what to call it -- tragic, hilarious, or just dumb.
There's a Mazda 6 owned by one of the workers at a restaurant near me. It has 20-inch wheels with those "rim protector" tires. Worse, the wheel spokes bend outward at the point where they join the rim.
So you go through a bad pot hole or scrape the curb -- either way those wheels are toast.
Oh, and to let you know those are 20-inchers, the car has '20"' decals on the rear quarter windows.
Cobalt up 12.5%
Impala up 55.2%
G6 up 81.3%
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/IROL/84/84530/presentations/gm_080906L- aNeve.pdf
GM Sets Sales Record of Over 1 Million Vehicles in Latin America, Africa & Middle East Region in 2006
GM Latin America, Africa & Middle East sold a record 1,035,200 units in 2006
GM LAAM sales up more than 153,500 units, an increase of 17.4 percent
Calendar Year GM LAAM market share improves to 17.0 percent
Sales performance led by strength of Chevrolet and GM premium brands
GM has been the vehicle sales leader in LAAM for nine consecutive years
GM LAAM is one of GM’s four regional business units. It employs approximately 31,000 people throughout the region, operating two distinct subdivisions: Latin American Operations and Africa and Middle East Operations. GM LAAM markets vehicles under the Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Hummer, Isuzu, Opel, Saab and Suzuki brands.
Looks like they have a plan at GM. I hear little of what is going on with Ford these days. The silence is deafening. And the boards here show little interest in talk of Ford. I am surprised so far. It seems the turnaround effort is in higher gear with GM, and the use of press, more impressive. Ford seems more like a deep sleep. Renaming of current cars was big news? My gosh, they do have a lot of good names in which they have invested a lot of big money --- seems like all they touched went downhill though, at least profit wise.
GM is building more and more on the all American car company theme, which may be paying out. What happens when China product from GM comes into America? What will the effect be?
Did they get the rear end look to the New Malibu from the current design of the Forenza? One day I was driving along and saw what I thought to be a new car from behind. I had to catch up to the car as it turned a corner. Later on, as I got up closer, I saw it was the Suzuki Forenza. Pretty big car for a Suzuki. I guess they have sold most of the share of Suzuki. The New Malibu I think will be a pretty good hit. From the pics, the interior has some added style sort of missed in the Aura -- not that the Aura interior is bad, just not stylish, as in standing out as something new.
Does the New Camaro have a timeline for startup yet? A possible 2010 car, or is there any rumor of pushing things along more rapidly for a 2009 model release? The 300HP V6 would be awesome for the Camaro. Still wishing for a smaller size car though. I know, it's just me. Heck, a good and frisky Camaro which really handles, and gets some decent MPG could be something sold in Europe and Asia too. Well maybe?
:shades: Loren
I saw one coming back from downtown weeks ago. I thought it was really balanced in design which is unlike some of the competition with their 'pieces' look. We don't see many of the larger Suzukis in this area but lots of cute UVs. However this car caught my eye for shopping along with Sonata.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
G6 up 81.3%
The G6 and refreshed Impala barely existed in the summer of 2005, so seeing their percentages improve isn't surprising. I'd rather see real numbers, though.
You are right, GM is cutting fleet sales across the board, but not with the G6. Makes perfect sense even though the stats from recent months says the exact opposite. You are making an argument based on data from 9 months ago and totally ignoring the most recent figures. Got it.
"No, you specifically said that the G6 was not sold in large numbers to fleet customers"
Never said that. You stated that 30% of G6 sales (as of today) go to fleet customers and I asked you where that number came from. You responded by saying you made that up based on what you saw on fleet-central.com. BTW, if I'm not mistaken that website had G6 and grand am sales combined in one category. The Grand Am was probably 100% fleet in the time period recorded on the site.
"And I doubt that its fleet sales percentages have dropped dramatically since that that time, but we shall see. "
I beg to differ. If Gm has increased its retail share to 80% of sales most of that improvement is going to come from cars because most of their trucks do no rely on fleet sales. If you look at the sales of GM cars that are frequently sold to fleets (Malibu, G6, Cobalt, Lacrosse) you will see that their sales numbers are way down from their best months of 2006. That is evidence of drastic reduction in fleet sales.
"but please note that Olds went away just after its "big infusion of product." In fact, GM made the announcement it was phasing out Olds while it was holding the long-lead press previews for the all-new Bravada. "
Please note that Olds sales did not increase substantially after the infusion of product. saturn's sales have been up significantly this year and the new Vue is coming out soon. Some people feel that Olds was scheduled to be axed regardless of what new products were being introduced and I am inclined to believe that. Saturn is not going anywhere.
"They are less profitable, and less of a challenge. "
Actually government and corporate fleet sales are OK, it's just the daily rentals that are bad.
If Toyota is about 12% fleet and GM is about 20% I do not think they are world's apart. I suspect that with the Tundra Toyota's fleet sales will only increase over time as they desperately try to sell 200k Tundras a year. GM and Honda are far apart on fleet sales, but GM and Toyota are not. I'm sure Nissan is way above Toyota in terms of % of sales going to fleet. Like I always say, fleet sales are only criticized when the cars being sold are from the Big 3. Hyundai and Nissan can do fleet sales all day long and no one cars. No one is going to say the Altima is undesirable because Nissan sells it to rental agencies, but the same wont be said about the Impala or G6 or any other domestic car that is found at airport rental lots.
"When you've read enough press releases, you'll learn that a company doesn't have to lie to hide the bad news. That is why PR writers get paid the big bucks. Trust me"
To be honest, any intelligent person can read and understand the stats and sales numbers in a press release. I am not that easily confused. If you have found lies and deceptions in GM's press releases let us know. What you are basically saying is that any GM press release with positive news is pure spin and BS designed to keep us from seeing how bad their cars are doing. Dont buy that. A sales increase is an increase.
"Absolutely...at least then we will be getting credible information."
And you think sites like that do not rely on automakers for sales numbers? Do you believe any sales numbers from automakers? Or does your skepticism only apply to companies you dont like such as GM?
Cavalier's, Malibu's, Classics, LeSabres (not really terrible if you like feeling like your in the Titanic boat while driving), Kia's, and Accents. "
Have you rented a car in the last three years? The Lesabre, Classic and Cavalier are long gone. I had a rental Lacrosse last year and it was a nice car. Sure, a GM base model rental car from 5 years ago was probably unimpressive but that has nothing to do with today's models. Sorry, but rental agencies arent the best place to test drive cars. Do you really expect to find nicely optioned cars at Avis? A lot of cars are less desirable with their base engines and cheapest trim lines.