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Comments
Agreed, but a '97 Cutlass is 11 years old this year. I don't know that you can make generalizations about a car company in 2007 based on what happened in 1996. Look where Hyundai was 11years ago, they have made a lot of progress since then in hp, features, quality, performance, etc. My parents have a '98 Olds that is still going strong with over 90k miles on the clock. Its not in and out of the shop all the time, it doesnt have electrical problems, the powertrain is fine, etc.
Impossible! People on edmunds tell me that every GM car made in the last 30 years was junk and fell apart at 50k miles! In the last 30 years my family has had 4 GM products including my current car. My parents first two chevy's lasted over 10 years and both were sold to other owners while they were running. My parent's current car (intrigue) is doing fine after nearly 9 years and has had only a few problems post-warranty. My car has actually had more issues (fixed under warranty fortunately) than any of my parent's last three cars.
I have in-laws that swear by Toyota's but seem to ignore the problems they've had with a 2002 Camry that was purchased due to disatisfaction with a problematic Volvo S40. Failed locking mechanisms, bad weather stripping that lead to a flooded interior and a few other things.
The domestics offer these "backdoor" incentives as well (in addition to offering direct-to-customer rebates). Anyone who calculates the price of a domestic vehicle by simply subtracting the rebates from the sticker price paid too much.
I'm not seeing where Honda is engaging in a unique or out-of-line business practice by using this sales tactic.
And any shopper who is "innocent" or "unknowing" in these days of the internet and Edmunds.com deserves what he or she gets. Those words are synonomous with "lazy" and "uninformed." Car buying is as much about proper preparation - i.e., thorough information gathering - as anything else.
In all the times I've shopped for a car from GM I've never seen a dealer incentive listed. Hondas have that frequently.
I'm not seeing where Honda is being straight forward with their customers despite that being the image they wish to sell upon from their past.
>And any shopper who is "innocent" or "unknowing"
I certainly wouldn't myself call shoppers who didn't understand all the ins, outs, and tricks of the pricing business "unknowing, lazy, and uninformed."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just because GM dealers don't list dealer incentives doesn't mean that they don't exist. It just means that GM dealers aren't being up front with the customer about the incentives, which is their right as a dealer. The incentives are between GM and the dealer.
imidazol97: I'm not seeing where Honda is being straight forward with their customers despite that being the image they wish to sell upon from their past.
They are dealer incentives. It is up to the dealer to list them. Honda dealers are independent franchises, just like GM dealers are. It is up to them whether to pass along a dealer incentive to the customer.
imidazol97:I certainly wouldn't myself call shoppers who didn't understand all the ins, outs, and tricks of the pricing business "unknowing, lazy, and uninformed."
A brand-new car is the second-biggest purchase most people will ever make. If they want to be careless or cavalier with their hard-earned money, that is their business.
But if they are going to visit the dealer without doing basic research (and if one can afford a brand-new car, one should also be able to afford a computer with an internet connection), they are lazy and/or uinformed.
If they existed in the form used by Honda, Edmunds certainly would list them. If you're talking about quotas, bonuses, rewards, etc., Honda likely also has those to reward dealers who sell hard.
> They are dealer incentives.
I'll bet that's why Edmunds calls the "dealer incentives." The rest of us aren't dumb as you like to portray.
>It is up to the dealer to list them. Honda dealers are independent franchises, just like GM dealers are.
Give an example of GM dealer incentive that isn't listed but which the dealer can pass through to the customer or withhold that's called a dealer incentive just like the Honda. And I just didn't know GM dealers are independent franchises as are Honda stores.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Midwesttrader just graciously listed them for me.
Sorry, but the idea that GM's system of advertised incentives makes buying a car more straightforward is not true. The simple fact is that the customer can always negotiate a price even lower than sticker price minus the rebates. If the customer doesn't, he or she is not getting the best deal possible.
imidazol97: I'll bet that's why Edmunds calls the "dealer incentives." The rest of us aren't dumb as you like to portray.
No, but I am puzzled by posters who challenge others to check a source that directly contradicts the point they are trying to make. :confuse:
Except that the bottom line is that the sticker minus the rebates is not necessarily the bottom line. The customer can negotiate even more off the sticker.
So I'm not seeing how the GM system is necessarily more straightforward from the buyer's perspective.
1487: Honda chooses not to do them in order to maintain it's "we dont need incentives to sell cars" image that the media holds so dear.
Honda doesn't need incentives on the order of GM to move the metal. If you doubt that, see how fast Impalas would sell without any advertised, direct-to-customer rebates, as Accords do.
Incidentally, you just undermined your own argument - you criticize Honda for not letting customers know about the dealer incentives, and not necessarily passing them on to customers.
Yet, it still sells large numbers of vehicles.
Which, of course, proves that Honda does not need direct-to-customer incentives to move the metal. So the image that the media holds so dear is apparently based on fact.
By the way...you did see the recent Automotivew News article on the Saturn Aura that quoted GM executives as saying that the car is not meeting its sale objectives - 90,000 annually, or even higher than I originally thought (75,000)?
"These trends of up and down sales and market-share adjustments are likely to continue for the foreseeable future. The good news is that GM has seen great success from its newly redesigned models."
GM's Short Winning Streak Ends (Motley Fool)
I am glad to see that watchers are noting the reduced fleet sales with a positive note.
I saw several Auras on my short trip to the Smokies last week.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I keep hearing you talk about currency manipulation by the Japanese -
Please tell me what you think the Yen/Dollar Exchange rate should be to "even the playing field".
Thanks.
Please tell me what you think the Yen/Dollar Exchange rate should be to "even the playing field".
LOL, those Detroit losers keep complaining about a manipulated weak Yen (and relative strong USD) is hurting their business. Yet ignoring the fact that the Yen appreciated more than 400% against USD in the past 40 years.
GM's market share keeps sinking with no sign of recovery. Why is it called an offensive? Doesn't that mean the GM has to gain market share from its competitors? :lemon:
In one 60-second radio spot, written and directed by Mark Frost, gm of Jim Ellis Chevrolet in Atlanta, a voiceover says, "Toyota recalled more vehicles last year than it sold. The reality is Toyota contributes more to our staggering national trade deficit than any other manufacturer and those American-built Toyotas are mostly American assembled from imported parts. Folks, the reality is Chevrolet is better for you, your pocketbook and America."
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/newstex/VNU-0010-15826628.htm
Or the Honda Accords driving past the gas stations when I bought a 6 cylinder Buick Century that got better gas mileage than their 6 cylinder Accords that they showed driving past the gas stations. The key is people wanted to believe the Hondas got great gas mileage so they were easily swayed by the misleading commercial.
How many miles per gallon does a Pilot get?
How many miles per gallon does a Tundra get with V8 pulling 10000 pounds?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,949138-1,00.html
"The best way to rebuild profits is for Detroit to produce the kind of cars that the American public wants. GM's new J-cars, a line of front-wheel-drive small autos, represent the strongest effort yet to attack the successful Japanese models. Said Robert Lund, the general manager of GM's Chevrolet division: "We're tired of hearing about how the domestic auto industry let the Japanese take the subcompact business away from us. The whole Chevrolet organization is spoiling for a fight."
It's been 25 years, and we all know how things turned out.
Loren
Somehow Buick and Enclave don't seem to roll smoothly off the tongue.
Loren
GM products are starting to look a bit more promising. Some are but promise, as they have yet to appear on the market. What is current is better than yesterday, so forward progress could be for real. I remain, cautiously optimistic.
Loren
That, and GM's financial turnaround plan, including layoffs of unneeded workers and massive reductions in fleet sales and cash incentives.
All of which we have already seen evidence of, and will continue to see evidence of, I think. It seems that the GM board has finally found a team of execs that will not be swayed, will resist efforts to remove them, and know the product and where GM needs to go. Holy cow, after 30 years of mismanagement, GM has finally found a winning team??!!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't understand the moaning of some about whether Honda offers rebates on their cars. Is Honda doing anything illegal? Is it a buyer's god-given right to have the invoice price?
Seems to me that Honda's strategy, overall, is working quite well. Honda, unlike GM, has a strong reputation and great resale value-- partly due to their pricing policies. And also due to making good cars. Based upon recent comments, you would think the GM pricing model (overprice bad merchandise, then give away at fire-sale prices) of a year or so ago was to be envied. :P
GM appears to be making some good decisions, one of them is worrying less about market share and more about margins.
From dictionary.com:
enclave - to isolate or enclose (esp. territory) within a foreign or uncongenial environment; make an enclave of
I guess Buick is finding itself in a uncongenial environment.
They might be finally getting it. That, and the even sicker health of Chrysler and Ford, may just allow them to weather this storm. I'm thinking that in the best scenario, in five years GM will be stronger, perhaps a bit less market share, but will be building a strong reputation and have much better product.
I think that if Rocky, Lemko, m1miata, myself, imidazol, and a few others could have been on the management team we would have done better. We would also like the salaries those guys had been getting. :shades:
Jim Eliis owns several dealerships inside the I-285 on Peachtree Industrial Blvd. (not far from my parents' house). As matter of fact I test drove the Mazda6, Saab 9-3 from Jim Ellis Mazda and Saab. My friend bought his Audi A4 1.8T Quattro from Jim Ellis Audi.
As one can see by now, Jim Ellis owns several "import" dealerships other than the "all American" Chevrolet. Jim Ellis' dealership chain is consisted of:
Audi
Chevy
Hyundai
Mazda
Porsche
Saab
VW
Only 1 out of 7 can be considered as domestic (2 counted Saab since it's owned by GM). Base on his claim, "Folks, the reality is Chevrolet is better for you, your pocketbook and America", he should just drop all the import brands and only deal suchs like Buick-Pontiac-GMC, Caddy, Dodge and Ford.
I don't mind dealers using aggressive ads to advertise their products but I hate hypocrites.
So I'm not seeing how the GM system is necessarily more straightforward from the buyer's perspective. "
I never said MSRP minus national discounts was the absolute bottom line price. National discounts are a good starting point though.
"Yet, it still sells large numbers of vehicles. "
The Accord sells in huge numbers for a lot of reasons. First of all it's Honda's (not Acura) only midsize sedan which means it competes against the Aura, Malibu, G6 and Impala. GM sells more midsize sedans than Honda, even if we include Acura sales. Secondly, the Accord is always offered at cut rate lease prices which guarantees its success. Almost every ad I see for the Accord is about some new low lease price. How can the car not do well when you can lease one for $200 per month? If Honda dumps the low lease rates Accord sales would fall. In fact, its sales have fallen thus far this year if I'm not mistaken in spite of the great deals being offered.
"So the image that the media holds so dear is apparently based on fact. "
Hardly true, most media outlets only care about rebates when talking incentives. Since Honda's incentives take the form of dealer cash and subsidized leases they dont get mentioned. Most aticles simply say "GM is offering thousands in rebates to keep sales alive while Honda/Toyota use few if any rebates due to high demand for their products". That is a very simplistic view that tells half the story, but thats the half the media wants to expose.
"By the way...you did see the recent Automotivew News article on the Saturn Aura that quoted GM executives as saying that the car is not meeting its sale objectives - 90,000 annually, or even higher than I originally thought (75,000)? "
No I didnt. But I fail to see how this is relevant to Honda incentives. The Aura has not sold well but it's a solid car that has been generally praised by the press. Are you saying the car isnt competitive due to it's sales? GM didnt have any signifcant incentives on the Aura until last month and unfortunately, Saturn's pricing strategy makes it hard to compete with $200 per month Accord and Camry leases. The bottom line is a lot of people lease and the Aura is not going to be cheaper for those people even though it's actual pricing is very competitive and substantially lower than the Camry.
The topic is called "GM on the offensive" because of the new products GM has recently released and plans to release. GM's product plan is more aggressive that Ford or chryslers and it comparable to Toyota's. I read that by the end of the decade, GM will have one of the youngest lineups in the industry.
Consumer Reports rated 20 Small SUV models and top 13 brands were Toyota, Hyundai, Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Kia, Suzuki, Nissan. Rated numbers 14, 15, 16, 17, 19 and 20 were Chevrolet Equinox, Pontiac Torrent, Jeep Compass, Saturn Vue, Jeep Liberty and Dodge Nitro respectively.
GM beat out the Chrysler entries in Small SUVs.
Got it!
PS. It like calling UC Berkley the number 1 public university but it's actually something like number 18 (or 20-something, I don't remember) in overall ranking. :P
All we need is the money to get this started and launch a real car company. I figure Loren, could sell his ocean front beach house for several million
With the proper "praying" technique we might have something.
Rocky
Which means that GM's system of rebates isn't any more straightforward to the customer searching for the best possible deal than the Honda system. That was your original contention.
1487: The Accord sells in huge numbers for a lot of reasons.
Well, first, it's a superior vehicle.
1487: First of all it's Honda's (not Acura) only midsize sedan which means it competes against the Aura, Malibu, G6 and Impala. GM sells more midsize sedans than Honda, even if we include Acura sales.
Let's cut out the sales to rental fleets, and see if GM still sells more midsize cars than Honda. Which company sells more cars to retail customers (the sales that really count)?
1487: Secondly, the Accord is always offered at cut rate lease prices which guarantees its success. Almost every ad I see for the Accord is about some new low lease price. How can the car not do well when you can lease one for $200 per month? If Honda dumps the low lease rates Accord sales would fall. In fact, its sales have fallen thus far this year if I'm not mistaken in spite of the great deals being offered.
If a car's sales were based on incentive levels, then GM's cars should be selling much better to retail customers, as GM employs a much higher level of incentives than Honda to move the metal.
1487: Hardly true, most media outlets only care about rebates when talking incentives. Since Honda's incentives take the form of dealer cash and subsidized leases they dont get mentioned. Most aticles simply say "GM is offering thousands in rebates to keep sales alive while Honda/Toyota use few if any rebates due to high demand for their products". That is a very simplistic view that tells half the story, but thats the half the media wants to expose.
The simple fact is that Honda does not offer direct-to-customer rebates. The media can't be expected to report what doesn't exist. Toyota, however, does (I've seen television advertisements touting $500 rebates on Corollas).
1487: No I didnt. But I fail to see how this is relevant to Honda incentives. The Aura has not sold well but it's a solid car that has been generally praised by the press. Are you saying the car isnt competitive due to it's sales?
I was bringing that up from our earlier conversation, where you denied that anyone could know the sales target that GM had set for the Aura, making it impossible to know whether the car is failing to meet them.
Straight from the horse's mouth - via Automotive News - we now know that GM set a sales goal of 90,000 per year for the Aura, and the car isn't meeting that goal.
1487: GM didnt have any signifcant incentives on the Aura until last month and unfortunately, Saturn's pricing strategy makes it hard to compete with $200 per month Accord and Camry leases.
GM has offered substantial deals on the old S-Series and the Ion, despite Saturn's "pricing strategy," so I don't see why they can't offer one on the Aura. In Harrisburg I've seen huge billboards saying, "$199 per month for a brand-new Saturn, and it's not a lease." That was for the Ion and S-Series, so I imagine GM could do something similar with the Ion (although not at $199 per month) to at least get the car before the public.
And, you know, people apparently are continuously gullible in the used car market also where used and pre-driven Hondas usually sell for more than GM models of same model year and class of vehicle. People are so stupid to buy Hondas when they could buy GMs for less and use the
left-over cash to buy a 1080P HDTV 50 inch Plasma that Jessica Simpson suggests.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think the Aura is not selling well because people wouldn't want to pay over $20,000 for a Saturn. They still view Saturn as a small inexpensive car. It is not just the Aura that is not selling well, but also The Outlook: 2,210 in March, compared to 5,739 GMC Acadias. This is despite the fact that the Outlook is actually cheaper.
Yeah, but if you can get a used car AND a 50" HDTV 1080P Plazma, that may be smart.
Loren
What if I am trying to buy a new car and already have the 50" 1080p HDTV Plasma?
So you can get the base Aura XR, which stickers at about $24K, if you are willing two little weeks. You can even pick your color in advance! :-)
The reason Aura isn't selling better is competition inside GM, I think, not to mention that the hybrid is not here yet so there is currently no Aura model making better than mid-20s mpg. (combined)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
GM reps do not mention sales goals. If someone gave AN some info from inside GM that is fine, but that isnt the same as Lutz or anyone official stating the Aura's sales goal. Most manufacturers do not announce sales goals to the press so I dont see why you continue to argue this. I would have to say 90k units seems very optimistic for an unknown nameplate in it's first year.
"The simple fact is that Honda does not offer direct-to-customer rebates. "
And who cares? The bottom line is that people are not paying near MSRP for GM products or Honda products. If Honda products were in such demand they wouldnt need dealer cash or $200 per month leases to move cars. It's that simple. You can dissect the ways the savings get to the consumer if you want, but to me a discount is a discount.
"Well, first, it's a superior vehicle. "
Superior to what? There are at least 3 midsize cars out right now that I would say are better than the Accord. I would say the Fusion and Accord are pretty much even although the Accord is faster.
The Aura isnt selling because:
1. The advertising is lacking
2. Many import buyers like the car but refuse to buy anything that isnt Asian.
3. No four cylinder model for under $20k
4. Unknown nameplate with no history in the marketplace
5. When leasing, the Aura is much more expensive than Accord and Camry.
6. Many people buy based on brand and not competence of product and thus they wont consider the Aura because its a Saturn and not a Hyundai, Nissan, Toyota, etc.
That said, I do think that Aura sales will get better as awareness builds and the hybrid reaches dealers. The Ions demise will also help somewhat.
Automotive News is a reputable publication. A GM official gave the number, so we can safely assume that it is accurate.
1487: And who cares?
You do, because you originally argued that the media is negligent for not pointing out that Honda is supposedly offering direct-to-customer rebates. Which it is not.
1487: The bottom line is that people are not paying near MSRP for GM products or Honda products.
Very true, except in the case of Honda CR-V, which, I have heard, remains in short supply.
1487: If Honda products were in such demand they wouldnt need dealer cash or $200 per month leases to move cars. It's that simple. You can dissect the ways the savings get to the consumer if you want, but to me a discount is a discount.
I never said that Honda didn't offer ANY discounts. I said it does not offer direct-to-customer rebates, or incentives at the level that GM needs to in order to move the metal. Both of which are true.
1487: Superior to what?
Anything that GM offers in that category, for starters.
And why do people buy vehicles "based on brand?" Because the brand has earned a positive image - either for reliability, overall competence, or performance. (The first two drive sales in the family sedan market.)
And how did the brand get that positive image? By producing vehicles that uphold it.
So we are back to "the rules are against us." Say goodbye, Bob.