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Comments
nippononly, I appreciate your concerns on I wanting the Velite. I really hope Buick, doesn't fold like that.
Rocky
Loren
We simply have too narrow a street system here, and the parking lots are striped for more narrow cars.
Loren
Why should we talk about Nissan, DC and Toyota? This is a GM forum. And Yes, GM has been slow to react. Why can't you admit it?
This shift is relatively recent and you seem to be ignoring all the recent import trucks and SUVs that have come to market.
This is not an import forum. But if you must, imports such as Toyota have their asses covered up that when a market shifts, Toyota is already there. If there is anyone ignoring anything, it is you ignoring that Toyota launched the Prius at the same time it lunched the Sequoia and Tundra. Heck, the RAV4 was even on sale 4 years before the Tundra. Toyota was already prepared. That's why Toyota has been gaining market share ever since. Where is GM from that?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I pointed that out to him. He chose to argue. :P
You cannot say GM is behind the industry when in truth they are only behind Toyota. Sure, GM got beat to the hybrid game by Toyota but so did Nissan, DC, BMW and Hyundai. GM has made up lost ground faster than any of those other companies. Why cant you admit that? It's not an opinion, it's a fact that can't be disputed. Keep in mind that Hyundai, DC, Nissan, etc. are ALL in far better shape than GM financially and should have had the resources to develop hybrid technology. MB only recently admitted that hybrids are here to stay and they plan to get into the game.
"But if you must, imports such as Toyota have their asses covered up that when a market shifts, Toyota is already there. If there is anyone ignoring anything, it is you ignoring that Toyota launched the Prius at the same time it lunched the Sequoia and Tundra. "
The first generation Prius wasnt a big seller and neither was the Tercel or it's replacement the Echo. People didnt want those vehicles when gas was cheaper. Toyota launched them and they got a lukewarm reception at the time. These models were launched simply because it was cheap for Toyota to do so since they were offered in other markets, not because Toyota was smart enough to know gas prices would double in less than two years. You are giving them way too much credit.
The idea that it's OK to produce gas guzzlers as long as you make small cars is ridiculous. either you are concerned about the environment or you're not. Most true environmentalists (as opposed to the Toyota fans on this forum) would agree and this is why Toyota was being ridiculed at the NYIAS for trying to foster a "green" image while making Tundras and LX570s that get 14mpg.
The next argument will be "but Toyota doesnt sell as many trucks as GM". Well of course they don't but that's not their intention. If more customers wanted Sequoias and 4Runners Toyota would gladly sell them but most Toyota trucks and SUVs are not near best in class and thus don't sell well. That isnt Toyota's "plan" by any means. When Toytoa makes a competitive SUV it does well as proved by the RAV4 and RX350. When they don't the sales are anemic as evidenced by the Sequoia, FJ Cruiser, last gen Tundra, Land Cruiser, GX470 etc.
With the Malibu and G6 four cylinders, Cobalt, G5, Astra, Aura/Malibu hybrid, Vue four/hybrid, Tahoe/Yukon hybrid and Aveo GM doesn't have it's "[non-permissible content removed]" covered as gas prices increase? I think GM is far more covered than DC, Ford, Nissan or Hyundai. Only Toyota is better positioned in terms of fuel efficient vehicles.
Yeah, just look at the last 4 posts -- in a row! :P
FJ Cruiser not a success? For a niche vehicle with about 10 months on the market in 2006, 56,225 sales ain't too shabby! The second-gen Prius was a smash hit when it hit the ground in the fall of '03, well before the really bad gas price run-ups.
>Yeah, just look at the last 4 posts -- in a row!
Is there a limit on posts? I noted one discussion with one person posting eleven out of eleven posts.
This topic is GM on the offensive not Toyota is wonderful.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
>Yeah, just look at the last 4 posts -- in a row!
Is there a limit on posts? I noted one discussion with one person posting eleven out of eleven posts.
This topic is GM on the offensive not Toyota is wonderful and yowe're not allowed to discuss that. GM has been continually improving the product and is right on track. They have a great image problem to overcome since many people enjoy perpetuating that long gone image. The other part of the offensive is bringing reality back to the perceived image of certain other car companies.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, there's no limit on posts, but continuously throwing out the word "ridiculous" about others' allegedly misguided views offends me (and I'm not talking about you). And I agree that GM is building better products today; the question is will it be enough to turn them around financially? I think the jury is still out.
The Edsels are 50 years old. We gotta let go of them as an example. Edsel(s) dead.
The Aztek was ahead of it's time, using Honda/Toyota talk, and I see many go by that are attractive and look very practical. I think of a totally dark red and a totally dark blue unit that I see occasionally. The choice of contrasting colors for parts of the vehicle, a little like some Elements, makes it look, well, piecemeal.
The FJ is certainly a niche vehicle like the Xb by Toyota. I don't see a lot of them selling other than that group; it's not a fuel efficient vehicle. The colors of ones I've seen say "Look at me" about the owners and that doesn't help. Again it's like the early Xb purchasers who had lime green, and other unusual colors. Those are gone; I rarely see one that's not a calm color.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Could very well be. Recall reading that their space utilization was very good. May be wise to look for these in for-sale want-ads and load up on them and put in storage. Our grandchildren could sell for many tens of thousands of dollars at future antique/collectible car auctions.
Buying public is not quite ready for some of futuristic styles that GM had given us. Hopefully, GM is on right track with elegant looking 08 CTS and other offerings.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I- 7GGLD&q=%22camaro+club%22
Hell, go to the GM Nationals in Carlisle, PA, and Camaros is about all you see! They could almost get by with calling it the Camaro Nationals, and then have a little footnote saying that if there's any space left over, they'll let other GM cars in! :P
Seriously, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but they do have a tremendous turnout. However, the Corvette is still more popular. Popular enough, in fact, to warrant its own show.
If that's the case, I hope that time never comes...
Amusing. It brings life to the old adage that "For every toad there is a Mrs. Toad."
Unfortunately there aren't very many other toads out there.
However, the Aztek turned out to be a very good thing for GM - sort of like an alcoholic losing his job and then his family - it sobered them up.
Here's an article from The Washington Post
That's the big gorilla sitting in the corner of the room," said Gerald C. Meyers, former chief executive of the defunct American Motors Corp. "Just look at the Aztek; it was hokey, nonsensical, ugly -- there are not enough adjectives to describe that vehicle. It . . . was indicative of the failed product development system that has been nurtured over there for so long."
GM executives, privately, are quick to concede the point. "The Aztek was a turning point because it did articulate everything that was wrong with the system," said one GM official, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of losing his job. "But it's been like turning the Titanic."
But then along comes the Aztek, which looked like an odd cobbling together of a VW Thing, a Daewoo LeMans, a Honda CRX, and God-only-knows what else. And since that turning point in the summer of 1999, it seems that most of the vehicles that have been restyled/redesigned since then have gone for an odd mashing together of angles and shapes, headlights and taillights that are often too big for what they're going on. And the cars have gotten taller, with more of their length going to the greenhouse and less to the hood and decklid, and coupled with the rising beltlines, just gives them an awkard, clumsy look.
Now I'm not saying that all cars made today are ugly, but I think that, had the Aztek never been born, we wouldn't be nearly so tolerant of many of the styles out there today. Whereas there was a public backlash to cars like the Edsel (oddly, the '58 Oldsmobile, which is almost as bad looking IMO was a strong seller that year though), and Detroit reacted and started cleaning up their cars as quickly as they could, the Aztek seems to have done just the opposite, opening the door for styles and shapes that Mother Nature never intended.
Now that I think back on it yeah, there were an awful lot of them there.
Niche vehicle? Imagine if we put that label on GM models that werent having great sales success. The FJ is a vehicle that puts form over function and it guzzles gas to boot.
GM just posted a profit in the last quarter so I think we have reached the point where we can say their improvements are yielding financial benefits.
IIRC, the 2nd-gen Prius was pretty popular from the get-go, but yeah, once fuel prices went up its popularity only increased. As for the Echo and Yaris, well the Echo was a flop, but I think part of that was its oddball styling. I think the Yaris is actually fairly popular though. The biggest problem that both of these cars have though is the Corolla. It's not that much more expensive, but it's bigger, more comfortable (at least if you get the nicer model with the additional seat adjustments), roomier, and gets similar fuel economy.
My uncle wanted an Echo a few years back, as a cheap economy car to run into the ground. Originally he just wanted a bare-bones stripper, but they were almost impossible to find. And they way most Echos were equipped on the sales lots (at least here in the MD area), you could get a Corolla with a bit more equipment for not much more. My uncle ended up with a Corolla, needless to say.
And for all the hoopla over the 1959 Cadillac, it was actually a fairly strong seller at the time. IIRC, sales were up pretty nicely from 1958, whereas competing Imperial and Lincoln were more or less flat. However, the '59 Caddy was also new, whereas the Imperial and Lincoln were facelifts, and back then, if something was new, it would usually sell. No matter how ugly.
I actually kinda like the '59 Buick, though. There's something about it that I find somewhat youthful and sporty. Well, for a Buick! But compared to the hulking '58 and the toned down, almost-a-bit-stodgy 1960, the '59 was a striking contrast.
Interesting thread - perhaps if the Element had come out first, it would be the poster child instead?
All compliments praising BMW's Inline 6 should come with an asterick deriding and noting that the 2.5 inline 6 was disastrously underpowered, but the larger versions of the inline 6 are quite nice.
Nah, I think the Aztek would've still ended up being the poster child. However, I think the Element might have softened the blow a bit for the Aztek, if it had come out first.
And in all fairness, the Element has taken a lot of criticism, and hasn't exactly set the world on fire with its sales, either. It also missed its demographic target. Originally they were trying to push them towards the same types of Xtreme sports lifestyle Gen-Xers that the Xterra tends to go for, but in the end it was usually more along the lines of baby boomers buying them for utility purposes.
Shameful! That's exactly what GM is doing. GM has just shown three mini cars concepts and is looking to sell at least one. But it is not ridiculous in this case to have both gas guzzlers and mini cars. It's GM we are talking about, isn't it?
BTW, GM is going to sell one of those minicars, just not in the US where they wouldnt be profitable. BTW, for those tempted to say "if Toyota and HOnda can do it GM can to" I would like to note most (if not all) subcompacts are not built in the US. Even the Asian companies have yet to build super small cars in high wage US factories.
"But it is not ridiculous in this case to have both gas guzzlers and mini cars."
I don't know, why dont you ask Toyota and Nissan?
steve_, "Auto Parts Bargains and Coupons" #97, 18 Apr 2007 12:18 am
Nothing that Toyota or Honda does is wrong. That is perpetuated by the media and general public based on hearsay. I wonder if those who happened to have transmission problems or sludge problems have changed their tune through the years.
In other words, it would have been a step forward for the Element rather than a styling change. A friend looked at one when he was shopping last time. I couldn't believe the brochure was full of hippie type things (a positive stereotype from 70s 80s) and these were morphed into the fun things that carefree young adults would do. It was interesting to read. For me, not practical, but for others it could be. However it's not an economy car.
>Lokki: Amusing. It brings life to the old adage that "For every toad there is a Mrs. Toad."
I guess there are a couple of other toads with reality in their ability. Aztek, not perfect and not awful either. As a leader to change, it was and did.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So, is it possible that the Aztek was the first midsized crossover, then? Kind of a forerunner to stuff like the Pilot, Highlander, Equinox, Pacifica, Murano, etc? I know, some of those have a 3rd row and some don't, but I'd still classify them all as more or less midsized. And then, naturally, the CR-V and RAV-4 grew up, as well. So did the RX330.
Remember that the Yaris, Echo, Element, Xb, and such were designed for the Japanese domestic market, and brought to the U.S. We are a secondary market for these vehicles and they make their money in their domestic market. Every sale here for those cars is just gravy. They're simply what Japan already had available and floated to see how they'd do here.
As for Aztek being a styling leader.... I don't think it was that either.
The Aztek was introduced in 2001. Here's a picture of a Toyota Will vi from 1998 and which was introduced in 2001 the same year as the Aztek
For that matter, here's a Ford Ka from 1996
Note the "Honda Element fenders" which considerly predate the Element.
And the Fiat Multipa from 1999
Of course, if we include the Multipa, then the Azetk falls to second place for "ugliest car".
So, I tend to think it was something in the water (Cherynobal anyone?) during that era, rather than the Aztek setting the trend.
Nice try, but no dice. All of the other vehicles you named at least had a coherent look. The Element, for instance, looks like a miniature Brinks truck and has decent proportions.
Are they beautiful? No. But they are at least coherent, unified designs.
The Aztek was a mess from nose to tail - and the nose and tail could have been designed in different styling studios.
And let's also end the myth that the Aztek was a pretty good vehicle under that ugly mug. It was based on a second-rate minivan platform, which, in turn, resulted in a third-rate crossover. At least the Element, Scion and FJ have decent underpinnings.
The Element, Scion and others may have more coherent designs but I have no more urge to buy them than I did the Aztek. They are all somewhat strange looking and none of them have styling that wouldnt fade from grace quickly. I think the FJ, xterra and ridgeline are also quite unattractive.
Toyota brings back the Citroen 2CV!
Maybe people who don't understand Aztek styling also don't appreciate Dali and Picasso.
The 1976 LeMans and the 1989 Brougham, perhaps? :P
As for the 2CV, to people really buy them because they revere them? Or is it because they're weird and offbeat, and kind of an anti-car like a Beetle or a Pacer?