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What about General Motors with a Ghosn as the spokesmouth of the company. Car commercials like Diamler advertising that Chrysler is a German American company. I'm sorry, but I'm more happy that GM could be a Japanese American company. Nissan has alot of "Gadgetology" and engine technology in it's portfolio, and Nissan could use GM's hybrid technology. GM will get the Infiniti GT-R as I lick my lips. I wish i was a little richer to buy this car.
Rocky :shades:
If you want a drop top, the Solstice looks hot! Speaking of hot, you do realize most of the time you are hot or cold in a drop top. While is simply great to feeling sometime to go topless, and the air rushing around the head, seems to make one sharper, if feeling a little down or fuzzy headed, it has some everyday ownership downsides. If I was to go the drop top again, I guess the hardtop convertible is pretty neat. Most times, metal over head is finer for me.
In 1987, I do believe I saw a car called a Wildcat, by Buick, with a glassed in top over the engine. A futurist looking sports car. If you could buy the stuff GM puts in car shows, like the one in LA 1987, then we would have something to brag about GM cars.
That year, 1987, they Cadillacs at the LA show were all in white. They had a while piano, with a man, you guessed it, in white. I recall seeing a Countach car, which had some wow factor to it, and a Porsche 959 was there too, I do believe.
-Loren
You might like the wild cat name, but I dislike it. The Velite name is a Elite name
I just know one thing Loren, and that is GM will deliver or it won't. If it doesn't deliver, I will buy
from brand "X" :mad:
Rocky
Don't get too excited yet guys. What about Nissan sales down 19%? Can changes be made before GM's money dries up?
Huge size might not be a good thing at this time, especially if your products aren't as good as the competition.
Few mergers actually work. Ford, Volvo, Rover; GM, Saab, Opel, Daimler-Chrysler, Warner-AOL,...etc.
It can take years to successfully merge two giant coporations.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"I'm so good it's scarey" ?
Who is this man ???
GM like this elite ball player is trying to make a comeback. If I was GM of a team I'd sign him so quick it wouldn't be a seond guess. He IMO is the greatest RF of all time.
Who am I talking about ?
Rocky
Date posted: 07-05-2006
DETROIT — Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Renault and Nissan, is scheduled to meet his General Motors counterpart, Rick Wagoner, later this month in Detroit further fueling hopes in the financial community that a profitable alliance will eventually be reached.
It has also been confirmed in numerous reports that GM's chief financial officer, Fritz Henderson, is heading up a project to examine the existing Renault/Nissan alliance to assess the potential benefits for GM if it joined. GM's board of directors will meet this Friday via teleconference and discuss the possible alliance.
In Japan, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun business daily said Nissan and Renault were studying three areas of possible cooperation with the General: parts procurement, environmental technology and safety technology.
GM's high-profile shareholder, billionaire Kirk Kerkorian, has proposed that GM management begin exploring a potential alliance with Renault/Nissan.
Wall Street continues to be smitten by the idea of a GM/Nissan alliance, with virtually every investment brokerage either raising GM's outlook rating or placing the stock on watch for possible upgrade. GM's stock was trading at $29.40 in midday trading Wednesday, up sharply from recent lows of around $19 in early May.
What this means to you: The mega-alliance appears to take a step closer to reality with this July powwow.
Holy crap it's happening. GM will reamin #1 f Uncle ghosn can grab the reins.
Rocky
Well, that is inclusive of all 3 companies, but kind of choppy. Sounds Chinese. It would be a plus for General Motors in getting a new name in that its name is kind of old fashioned now. They need to think like corporations who redo their images with new-age type of names or actors or actresses who go to Hollywood and change their names to something cool.
Think that folks in GM and people in US would not mind a French name in that GM has some French/Swiss names right now. Maybe just the name Renault, pronounced Wren-Oh, would be the right choice. If the new company kept models Lucerne, Malibu, Monte Carlo, Lacrosse, etc., think how classy the new name would sound such as Wren-Oh Lucerne or Wren-Oh Monte Carlo.
Small Car
Aveo
Versa
Compact
Cobalt
Sentra
Midsize
Malibu
Altima
Fullsize
Impala
Maxima
Small CUV
HHR
Midsize CUV
Murano
Midsize SUV
Trailblazer
Pathfinder
Fullsize SUV
Tahoe/Suburban
Armada
Midsize Pickup
Colorado
Frontier
Fullsize Pickup
Silverado
Titan
Sportscar V6
Z
Sportscar V8
Corvette
Besides, can you imagine how Americans will respond to buying cars from a company partly owned by the French government? Whether fair to France and Renault or not, it will be an issue faced by management of any such alliance. Mixing American business with French politics doesn't sound like a comfortable mix.
GM's technical alliance on hybrids with DaimlerChrysler makes far more sense.
I say this all as a long-time fan of Renault in Formula 1 (Prost!) and a happy former owner of a LeCar (R5). I'm not the norm. This proposal is a disaster in waiting if consummated.
They have no more clout and influence than the posters here. The posters are mostly high school and college boys, with the exception of one or two insiders who post there occasionally.
Of course the mere mention of a Monte Carlo brings our the boo birds for style. While they are not classic 1968 Malibu SS, drop dead gorgeous in looks, they aren't all that bad. At least look like they have some character to them, and not an " all the rest " car.
-Loren
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They remain the number one selling cars for profit.
-Loren
Tony an Jeff would be soon riding NASCAR Camrys -
made by America's Car Company - TOYOTA.
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IMO I have to disagree. Chevy is GM's top sellers by far. I would say Impala, Cobalt or an equivalent and Aveo in some form would stay. Maybe Malibu in some form. Has anyone ever actually bought an SST? I saw a used one for $40,000! What was it new? Too much if it's 40,000 used.
Corvette would stay for status purposes. Cadillac is actually profitable so it would stay though DTS has to be upgraded to the 21st Century.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I don't see anything that drastic happening. I would think that there would be some consolidation within GM lines, while keeping the Nissan line completely seperate.
Again, my speculation (and I will emphasize that it's all guesswork on my part) would be that Ghosn would develop perhaps a half-dozen GM mass-market vehicles, largely based upon stuff in the Renault-Nissan parts bin, and with some engineers from Japan leading the job. The goal here wouldn't be to trim down Nissan's lines, which are already fairly well sized, but to make GMNA's lines lean and more appealing.
So in this scenario, there would be a GM car that competes with the Altima, another that competes with the Sentra, yet another that competes with the Maxima, etc. R-N has more to gain by redefining the GM badges (or at least some of them) than it does by gutting them entirely.
Malibu = Why? Rectangular car, with no character, and bland interior.
Corvette = Sweet, and I would think profitable
DTS = Not a bad cruiser, and solid used car value. Still not convinced I am a Northstar fan. The CTS is more interesting. DTS may be more luxury though.
Cobalt = Japan and Korea make'em better, longer warranty on Hyundai. New Elanta, once out will be more of a bargain. Reliability on Cobalt has not been stellar.
Aveo = Why? Other Korean cars, which are wider, look better, and cost about the same, with longer warranty.
SST=? The Silverado SST?
-Loren
lots of Americans who are pro-GM/Buy-America guys don't realize that the French, whom they loathe, embrace the very same philosophy. The French are loyal to a fault about buying domestic. More Citroens/Peugeots/Renaults than anything else on French streets. The French think more like the Buy American guys than the Buy American guys would like to think.
[I believe this to be on topic and not offensive - certainly not intending to be offensive to the French or to any Buy-American guys]
I met a few people who own a lot of acres and are 55 and retired
and they drive little stink pots for cars
cars are just not the status symbols in Provence that they are here
having 50 acres of olives is all the "status" these guys need
well, that and a mistress, I guess
;-)
The Camry will be the only nameplate in NASCAR
actually being built in the good ol' US of A!
Monte is made up North of us, and the Fusion down South.
Hummm?
I bet that's got Tony climbing the fence? OK, winning does
I still think Chevy should have years ago gone back to a RWD Nova, then made a Malibu off the same chassis, and used them as the race machine brand. Yes, I know, they are all NASCARs and no longer stock cars. What year did this officially happen? When did they make all the cars share a template? I recall a time when they looked as they did in the showrooms. And then there was Richard Petty driving the weird Super Bird nose thing. Now a Charger or anything late 60's to earliest 70's, would be a looker today! What in the world is the new Charger? Then again, what is a Malibu these days? Style - what style?
-Loren
True, but these cars are GM's money makers and big sellers. Impala sales up 25% in Canada this year so although it is a big Accord rip off it sells, and is pretty cheap for the amount of car you get....if you like this type of thing.
Malibu again, a lot of content at a low price. Might be archaic but hey, people will buy it because it is cheap and it is a Chevy.
Aveo sells in big numbers in the middle east. they love them....go figure???
Cobalt, well once again a lot of people don't study reliability issues. They go for the lowest price and most content, and if it is a GM it has to be good - right?
(Like my brother, he thinks research means you look at them all and get your facts, then buy the cheapest one - that is research to him)
The C's, Chev and Caddie make the money in cars at GM so they will stay.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I guess the last Studebaker was the Avanti. (cool looking car).
Will there be the day of the last GM car as the Corvette?
What will Saturn become? Are they actually going to build Opel designs here in the States? Or will they eventually just be an importer, or gone like Olds. in a few years?
Buick and Pontiac going to be around in 2010?
Camaro for 2010, not some five year late to the party?
Why didn't they build a Solstice Coupe first, and take some sales away from say Ford Mustang, as an example of one?
While thinking retro, one comes upon the name Cutlass, as in 442, as well as, family sedans and coupes which were, in their day, the most reliable and very popular cars of say the 60's and 70's. Sadly, GM can not revive them, as they killed the Oldsmobile name. Let's see, take a look at a new Impala, vs. say the 1972 Olds. Cutlass Coupe. Now which one looks more classy? Impala is pleasing enough, in an Accord sorta, smooth finished way, but what can you say for character?
-Loren
Well, that is inclusive of all 3 companies, but kind of choppy. Sounds Chinese. It would be a plus for General Motors in getting a new name in that its name is kind of old fashioned now."
How about Jeneraaal Motaaairs-san?.
Kevorkian'sKirkorian's way to initiate assisted suicide?And I realize that way back in 1999, it's not a lot easier. Just imagine trying to combine French and Japanese people to work together. Cultural differences, language differences (solved by using English as a common language in both companies), different company systems etc. Nissan also have a huge debt in 1999. 20 billion dollars !
And Ghosn did it not because he was lucky, but he had tough experience way back in the days when he worked for Michelin in Brazil, where he faced a sky high inflation environment. Yet he managed to succeed. Then he got promoted to Michelin USA where he made many improvements as well. After that he went again to Renault and again make many good changes.
Thus unlike what the press said abt Ghosn's turnaround experience in Nissan, pls remember that he did it not once, but FOUR times. Michelin Brazil, USA, Renault, and finally Nissan.
That is why I have a feeling that Ghosn did a calculated risk, and that based on his past tough experiences, he feels that GM can be resurrected to past glory again. Otherwise, why will he do it ? He is a fanatic about profits. He isn't going into this alliance to lose money.
I will not underestimate this man. You may say he is a turnaround artist, but a poor distance man. I disagree. IT is A LOT tougher to turnaround a sick car maker like Nissan in 1999 than to deal with temporary sales slumps and not major, across the board quality problems. Most Nissan cars around the world are OK. Otherwise how could they survive 1999 ? How could they recover in Japan to rival Honda again there ? In fact Nissan's sales in Japan often exceeded Honda nowadays. They are both quite similar in volume sales in Japan.
I mean Nissan currently have very few new models not just in USA but in Japan. That explains their temporary sales drop. And quality problems ? You mean Toyota and Honda cars don't have quality problems ? Just look at some recent big recalls for some of Toyota's made in Japan models.
Once new models start arriving, their sales will pick up again. I guess Toyota and Honda spread out their new model launches in a more evenly spaced time period, whereas Nissan seems to launch many in a shorter time, with a longer no-new model lull period. Thus more sales volatility.
Ghosn said something similar to what Warren Buffett once said about analysing and judging companies. That is, one should judge a company not on short term a few months sales fluctuations, but on say 3-5 years pattern. A dip in sales for a few months to almost a year may only be due to things like lack of new models.
But a continuously declining sales for say 4 years in a row MAY then indicate something wrong at the company.
And I could guess further reasons. That is " GM's BRAND EQUITY value ". Even though GM is still financially sick, but GM's many brands still have a huge equity value. Millions of car buyers around the world are familiar with GM's brands.
Now, which is more difficult to do : Renault re-enter USA and other markets and try to build up volumes to those GM have (pls remember that GM's volume is still astronomically large compared to many other car brands)
Or N-R marry GM and impart experience to help GM get back on their feet again ? Frankly speaking, I realize that to even hope that Renault can achieve 1 million of cars sold in USA will probably need at least a decade, or longer. Whereas Ghosn managed to turnaround Nissan in only 2 years ! I'll take a chance on this marriage than starting from ZERO !
Which brings us back to brand equity. Renault have very low brand equity in some markets, especially in USA the big volume market. Whereas GM's brand equity is still pretty high, even with their losses, otherwise why are their volumes still large, though decreasing.
If Ghosn can help turnaround GM, then in a blink of an eye (say 3-4 years), he and R-N will have a 20% share of GM's awesome volumes and future post recovery profits ! Its really a win-win solution for all the 3 partners !
Maybe he realized it may be easier to resurrect old, familiar, albeit sick brands than to wait a long long time to build a new brand from scratch. I think Ghosn may already be dead when Renault managed to achieve say 300k units sold in USA, if it ever happened at all.
In addition, GM's current market capitalization is very low compared to their FULL brand power POTENTIAL once they recover in the future, and compared to GM's huge volume. Why not take advantage of it and buy a 20% stake at bargain prices ? Well, it may not be a bargain today as GM have huge liabilities, but it will turn out to be a steal if you imagine what GM will be like at FULL recovery : almost 10 million cars sold annually plus healthy profits !
I say that if GM ever made a full recovery, I think even Toyota will know fear for the first time !
This tactic, if successful, can have astonishing results on their investment. FYI, Renault's 1999 $5 billion Nissan rescue investment money have become $25 billion in 7 years today ! That's a compounded annual return of 25.8% ! Even Warren Buffett will smile ! And that's errily similar to Buffett's track record over the years.
Far Far more profitable than trying to push Renault and Nissan sales volume to those achieved by GM around the world in a short time.
And if you know Ghosn's thinking, actually his main mantra is not just about massive volumes of cars per se. He is all about value, that is, achieving higher returns and growth over time. That is why one of Nissan's targets is a minimum of 20% return on capital employed.
Sometimes I wonder whether Buffett knew Ghosn or not. Their thinking on shareholder value and trying to achieve higher returns for shareholders are quite similar. Buffett have always said that the primary yardstick for managerial competence is a high return on capital employed, without taking on high debt or accounting gimmick.
This was essentially my comment on the GM thread -- I suspect that Ghosn's short-term goal is to turn GM around, not necessarily to create synergies for Renault or Nissan.
At this moment, GMNA is a mess, but the creation of perhaps a half-dozen great cars that could lead a turnaround would be sufficient to bring it back to life. Nissan was in a similar situation when he took the helm there, and a product-focused strategy was precisely what he used to save it, too.
My guess at this point is that he plans a repeat here. If he can rework some platforms for efficiencies down the road, so be it, but right at this moment, I'm going to guess that he plans on bits of Nissan and Renault R&D to create these cars, launch them ASAP, and use them to begin a renaissance of these brands.
It may just work, and the bet is actually pretty small in comparison to the best case scenario. (GM's market cap is nominal -- if he can create profits, then it's all upside from there, and huge returns for both Nissan and Renault.)
The downside here is that Ghosn is already dividing his time between two automakers, and may not have proper time to devote to GM as well. The recent slowdown at Nissan, with the accompanying QC problems, hint that his attentions may already be a bit stretched, and you have to wonder whether he has the ability to focus on an even bigger turnaround. GM is a massive enterprise, and I would hope that whoever runs it can devote 110% to it, not just 33 1/3%.
Ouch!!!!!
Very impressive, all they have done over the years. Especially up to say the 1970 time frame. After that it becomes less about cars and more about other things, like contracts, and other items which ultimately bring us to today. Starting in the early years, the history of innovations, and style (Body by Fisher) and all goodness of the glory days, kinda make one think about owning one again. The family cars by GM were Generally good, and up to early 70's pretty stylin'. We had the Buicks and the Olds Cutlasses back when. Those I bought however during the second half of 70's thru early 90's were poor to fair. Perhaps it is time to try out current generation, or should I say cars which appear to be new. Appears to be late 90's platforms, with older engines, but they have gotten the bugs out. Somewhere around the year 2002, I think it was, things turned around statistic wise for reliability. So today's Impala or Monte may be pretty reliable. And a little spark here and there for body shape, like Body by Fisher golden years, as the Solstice, and the CTS spark the imagination.
While I am a fan on the 60's GM style, I am not overly impressed with the history since then. That doesn't mean that certain cars, like the Vettes and Cadillacs, as well as, the occasional other GM car is not something I would not consider. Right now it is health of GM, and I think the need for a longer warranty, and resale value, which is more of a concern to me than most other things. Perhaps not every GM, but most of them, I would only consider as used vehicles. If the warranty is not all that long, and the resale not all that great, I am thinking a year to even three years off of new may be the sweet spot for a good used one.
I still think GM had an opportunity with the Camaro / Nova. If they were RWD, and inexpensive. I am afraid that 1) Camaro ends up another specialty car, 2) it is too large, heavy, with too tall doors and width, 3) is too expensive.
I guess the Cobalt makes money for GM, though to me it seems all but lost amongst to many other cars of same. A Nova, a little larger, with American good ol' Body by Fisher quality style would be so much more of a winner.
Just a thought.
-Loren
GM WILL join Renault-Nissan. And there will be no such thing as rebadged cars. Why ? If you look at the R-N alliance, it works more like a business partnership than a takeover. FYI, Renault is still Renault, Nissan is still Nissan. They share purchasing, share R&D efforts etc.
But there is no Renault car like the Megane that becomes a Nissan in Japan. Or a Nissan JDM model that pops up in say Europe as a Renault.Ghosn is aware that rebadging could be detrimental to brand equity.
Imagine Coke and Pepsi joined together and Coke becomes Pepsi in some markets. What will people think ?
I also predict that Rick Wagoner will stay on as Chairman and CEO of GM. Ghosn will function mainly as advisor and somekind of co-CEO. He is busy enough already running 2 car companies. He will impart his experience in turnarounds and send some experienced Renault or Nissan people to GM to help speed up recovery. Rick Wagoner and the old GM people will stay.
It will be more like Rick Wagoner is still the airline plane captain, and Ghosn sits as co-pilot, telling Rick the Captain " Watch out captain, there is a mountain beyond that fog ! "
FYI, Ghosn have always said, when he went into Nissan in 1999, he looks for Nissan people, INSIDE the company for answers, NOT from outside people. He always believe that its the people inside who knows the troubles, and what needs to be done. Just that sometimes old management way of doing things gets in the way.
He always said the credit for Nissan's turnaround goes to the Nissan people themselves. He only functions as the catalyst, the co-ordinator. In fact, many of Nissan's old pre-1999 board of directors and people still remain today.
Ghosn is aware that if Rick Wagoner and the old GM guard departs, he and R-N people does not have the time or the energy to understand GM's huge complex structure and problems. It makes more sense to WORK TOGETHER with the old GM people, share ideas, co-operate, and attempt a full recovery.
If you really want to understand and explore what will happen to GM after they joined R-N, read the 2 books I have read. Don't just read the press coverage. Many of the reporters I believe don't even know in detail what happened to Nissan from 1999 till today.
That is why the Renault Nissan alliance works so well compared with other auto partnerships. Its about equality, about partnership (I scratch your back you scratch mine), than about who will dominate over whom.
Then you will realize this alliance is really good for everybody. It will make GM glorious again, with R-N sharing in the glory as partners.
Ghosn is basically attempting to repeat what he did with Nissan, just that this time the scale is multiplied many times because GM is SO BIG ! He dares to because I think he feels it may EVEN be easier to raise GM as he already have prior experience.
For those who think I am too optimistic, pls remember that in 1999, GM's Bob Lutz said that Renault's entry into Nissan in 1999 is like putting $5 billion into a containership and sinking it in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Guess what ! Today that $5 billion cargo have turned into $25 billion and still afloat, making profits !
I wish this upcoming alliance all the best ! After all, as they say, 3 heads are better than 1 !
All of them should stay exclusively as rental car specials, thay way rest of the lineup don't get tarnished.
Loren: I think I speak for only one here, when I ask, What the heck does an otherwise intelligent sounding gentleman see in the Monte Carlo that is, "Not Bad"???
It only differentiates itself from "all the rest" by being decidedly disorganized in it's theme, detached in application, and distressing to the eyes! (IMO, of course).
This is something that I seriously doubt. Two reasons:
-Wagoner is the consummate bureaucrat, and already drew his line in the sand with the Board earlier this year, when he demanded its support in lieu of his resignation. He's part of the problem, not part of the solution.
-The analysts will want to see Ghosn at the helm, and not reward the stock as handsomely if Ghosn is perceived as taking a more hands-off role. This is quite different from the situation with Nissan, in which Ghosn had to take care to allow the Japanese executives to save face and not appear to need too much help from a western outsider. Different cultures and expectations dictate different outcomes.
If anyone survives a shakeup, my guess is that it would be Lutz, who is more of a car and branding guy, at least when given half a chance. Yes, he has been a disappointment to many, but I suspect that he would be better prepared to help to lead a product-based turnaround than Wagoner ever could hope.
GM's people will still do the bulk of the recovery work. Ghosn will simply guide them using his past experience. It's GM's people who will have their hands full later.
Way back in 1999, he was already busy with Renault, yet he managed to turn Nissan. Remember, he did not really come up with most of the solutions. All he did was fly around the world talking to suppliers, sales, dealers etc to find out what went wrong, ask for suggestions, get Renault and Nissan people to sit down and brainstorm ideas.
FYI, most of his time was not sitting in his office thinking. He spends most of his time meeting and talking with people INSIDE the company, not paid outside consultants, to brainstorm ideas.
His strength actually is not in many many brand new ideas, but in EXECUTION. He is very good at getting ideas from people and putting them into practice.
Remember that Nissan now have a COO helping Ghosn with day to day matters, and Renault also have improved much compared to 1990s days, Ghosn already have many capable co-pilots to help him. Thus soon after the alliance, Ghosn may be in Detroit more often with some of his people to work together with GM people, while his co-pilots at Renault and Nissan take care of day to day matters.
I'll put a wager that Rick Wagoner and GM will stay. There will be no feelings of losing control or power. All that's going to happen is GM gets new friends to help come up with ideas to recover, with the fair condition that those new friends get 20% of future results ! And that 20% is not free. R-N have to pay for it ! Just that at current prices, it may be cheap compared to what GM can do in the future.
And I can imagine the awesome firepower of this alliance if it works. Just imagine the battalions of GM, Renault and Nissan people working together as partners, not adversaries or rivals, working to develop new engines, new platforms, share purchasings etc. The economies of scale and synergies and there, despite what naysayers say.
It may be more like during the 2nd world war when the Allies team up to take on Japan and Germany.
People keep saying Nissan have quality problems. But let's be proportional here. Just because a few models have issues and lack of new models affect short term sales does not mean Nissan is going back to 1999. Come on ! Like I said, even Toyota and Honda got problems. Look at their Japanese model recalls !
We should look at the whole Nissan and Renault car line-up across the world today. The majority are doing just fine ! I don't see why people start to think Ghosn's cars sucks.
I remember the ancient Chinese strategist Sun Tzu said something like " Order or disorder depends on the system, not just the size ". Maybe what he means is, as long as the system deviced is working, it works for platoons or entire armies. And if the system is wrong, it will fail regardless of armies or squad level.
Michelin Brazil is smaller than Nissan Japan before 1999. Yet Ghosn succeeded in both operations of differing size. Maybe Sun Tzu is right. Its the SYSTEM, way of doing things, not the size per se that determines what works and what don't.
I'd take that bet, precisely because the control issue will be at the forefront of the powerplay. Wagoner did not spend his entire post-MBA career at GM to take a back seat to a rival chairman.
This is quite different from the situation with a Japanese management team, in which humility, saving face and sharing credit take precedence over putting a superstar CEO into a spotlight that outshines all others. I'm sure that Kerkorian will want to send a message to Wall Street that GM is going to be reinvented, something that isn't going to happen with Wagoner at the top.
With nearly identical options(but the VVT 3.6 instead!) - it comes out to $36,175.00 MSRP.
Really a DUH comparison when you look at it. I'd rather have a Cadillac engine and suspension in a Buick than a Buick engine and suspension in a Cadillac.
Compare the Lucernce CXS to the lower-end Cadillacs and it's a huge win for the Lucerne.
FYI, recent news said Ghosn is flying to meet Rick, not vice versa. This shows Ghosn wants everybody to feel good. I mean if Toyota is the one here, I doubt if Katsuaki Watanabe wants to make the first move and visit Rick. Rick will probably have to fly to Tokyo.
And here is some history. Nissan's old boss in 1999, Hanawa was around when Ghosn entered. Ghosn was titled COO, Hanawa was still holding the highest rank of Chairman and CEO even after the Renault Nissan alliance was formed. But obviously Hanawa knew he had ran out of ideas like Rick today. Thus he had no choice but to let Ghosn the lower ranking guy did most of the work.
But as time goes by and Ghosn succeeded, I think Hanawa was gracious enough to slowly fade into the background and Ghosn finally got the CEO rank. I guess Hanawa cared more for Nissan than himself.
Even if Rick have to go, based on Ghosn's past experience and understanding the importance of having to " give face " for the old guard, Rick will stay for a while. How long we don't know.
And guess what, today, Nissan's COO Toshiyuki Shiga is from the old guard ! One will imagine that today's Nissan will be filled with many new faces. Not true ! Ghosn simply refine and change the system, while converting the old guard to the new way of doing things.
I guess Ghosn's true genius is not in technical expertise, but in " human communications ". He sure is good at getting people together, of uniting them to new ways of doing things !
The fact that Ghosn is flying to meet Rick and not vice versa means Ghosn wants to generate goodwill and start this alliance on a good atmosphere, not on an arrogant " You need me eh ? " kind of thing.
I will not be surprised if when Ghosn meets Rick in Detroit soon, one of his first ice breakers could be something like " Rick, let's get married ! We may live happily ever after !
He knows the importance of harmony and avoid unpleasantness for this kind of alliance to work.
Imagine the tough French vs Japanese situation in 1999. Ghosn uses diplomacy and face saving to make it work for the Japanese.
In fact, when Daimler Chrysler broke off negotiations with Nissan in 1999, Renault's boss Loius Schweitzer and Ghosn decided NOT to alter or demand more from Nissan, even though they are left as the ONLY party, why ? To generate GOODWILL. They realize goodwill is more important than getting a bit extra from Nissan's weaker position then.
Try that in your average business negotiations.
The cultural issue makes a significant difference, as do the varying constituencies. Again, a key difference here with GM is that it is the analysts and a major stockholder (Kerkorian) who are driving the changes under discussion, not GM management. Large American companies get reviewed and studied to death every 90 days by analysts and the business press throughout the world, and are under far more scrutiny than are Japanese firms. Americans expect a superstar CEO to run the firm, not a has-been who is not-so-quietly being shoved aside by an outsider with some very different agendas. Very, very different situations.
Another difference lay in the scope of the problems. Nissan's main problem was with product, and secondarily with costs. The management team provided continuity to the operation, and there was no particular need to change them out, just so long as they supported the effort and were provided the opportunity to save face.
GM has both of these problems, plus poor supplier relationships, damaged branding, an excessively bulky distribution network, and large numbers of redundant products that don't cut it, in addition to a management team that repeatedly makes bad decisions and apparently can't win the trust of labor. The GM of today makes the Nissan of old look like a rock star in comparison.
I would agree that Ghosn is more of a strategy guy than he is a car guy, and that he brings in product people to help make the product decisions. But that doesn't mean that the current GM leadership is going to facilitate the implementation of a new strategy. If this deal goes through, I absolutely expect Wagoner to resign, and if he doesn't jump on his own, he is going to get pushed.
The CTS and the Escalade pretty much saved Cadillac, so I am not sure what you mean by a disaster in respect to a CTS. Both the Lucerne and CTS are overpriced, but used cars are out there, and perhaps more sanely priced. In the Lucerne, I would have gone with the V8 in the past, but I think for gas mileage, and from what I gather about the V8, I am now leaning more V6, as in 3.8 old Nellie.
As for the CTS, I would only get one with the lumbar supported seats, and at a fair price. Not sure about the 2.8 V6, but it may be adequate for the job at hand. Lack of a telescoping steering column is not good, BUT if I can get a reasonably good seating position, all is well. And think of it as the closest we come to having the Chevy Nova III
Or having the old Cutlass RWD back again.
As long as you are comparing cars for value, why not also compare the Azera, as another FWD car. Seems to do better than the Lucerne in reviews. But the true test is when it fits the individual. So if Buick lights the fire more, you should follow the flame.
-Loren
I remember in David Magee's book, he reported that some of Nissan's suppliers are so worried and upset with the old Nissan that they even said something like " You people at Nissan have brought your current bad situation by yourself ! "
The old Nissan is also stuck with a very old Japanese way of doing things, known as the Keiretsu, where Nissan and many related companies are linked too closely together. Thus many of Nissan' old parts are too expensive, yet Nissan still pays for them. Also many Nissan cars lose money.
In addition, Nissan in the past also have bad brand image. boring, stale, what have you. Read those books and you will be surprised that the old Nissan is in pretty bad shape as well. That's why in 1999, even Toyota and Honda did not have the foresight to see Ghosn will succeed. They thought their rival will be dead, Ghosn or not.
I don't know. But deep in my guts, I just have a feeling this alliance will work, and that GM will never be the same again. But the road will indeed be a formidable one.
FYI, from 1990-1999, Nissan made money only in 1 year, I think 1996. The rest are red numbers on their P&L statements.
Really, you may want to find those 2 books and read them if you haven't. They make quite interesting read for car enthusiast, even for just normal business observers.
GM for 'Global Motors'.
:P
Let's say today GM is like Tiger Woods who have temporarily lose his swing and his touch around the greens. Whereas in the past he is the number 1 golfer (GM with all her troubles, is STILL the no.1 car maker in volume, though Toyota is right behind), now he have trouble even making the cut.
Nissan and Renault is like say who, Ernie Els. Els knows he is not as good as Tiger Woods at maximum potential, but Els still plays well. He is say no. 3 or 4 in the golfing world.
Now imagine if I am Els. Tiger Woods is about to give up golf, because his missing the cuts cannot pay for tournament fees any much longer. But as Els, I knew Woods is a damn good player if he ever gets back his swing.
So instead of letting Woods vanish and I STILL have to struggle against Michelson and others, I make an offer to Tiger : Tiger, what if I pay you XYZ today so that you can still pay for tournaments for a few more years, and I help you in yr golf practice, with the promise that if you get back your swing, and you become no.1 again, 20% of your tournament winnings and sponsor money is mine ?
It's a risk. Yes, if Woods never get back his swing and Els wasted his time and money. BUT if Woods ever regain his former glory, Els enjoy 20% of his future winnings FOREVER without making an extra swing anymore in the future !
In the golfing world, maybe Els will not do that because the prestige, ego thing is involved. But in the business world, money and size rules. Ghosn realize its still tough to have to deal with Toyota and Honda. By joining forces with GM, together they will ZOOM by Toyota by a WIDE margin once GM recovers. That's the fastest way I can think of to overtake Toyota in the shortest possible time.
Well, its just an analogy, not 100% accurate, but you get the idea. Ghosn is weighing the fact that the upside for all 3 of them is awesome if he can make the alliance work. Thats why he risk losing his reputation by being willing to invite GM to join Nissan and Renault.
And frankly speaking, if I am Els, and I see Michelson play the way he is playing now, I MIGHT just make Tiger that offer. So that I can enjoy big future profits EVEN if I never beat Michelson. In fact, I stand an excellent chance of earning MORE than Michelson from 20% of Tiger's big future earnings !
If GM ever become a Titan again, Renault / Nissan and Ghosn will sit back, pat GM on the back " Well done boys ! Don't forget my 20% OK ? "
Unlike this golf scenario, in this 3 way alliance, once Tiger gets back his swing, he and Els will train and practice together. Els's swing will DEFINITELY improve as well!
If you think about this analogy, then you may start to understand why Ghosn is willing to take this risk. GM is TOO BIG and her BRAND EQUITY still AWESOME to ignore. Just got to help GM get back his swing !
:shades: Loren
P.S. I like the LG company = Life's Good !
nv, you're speaking for at least 2 - include me.
What a huge hunk of metal, with such a small passenger compartment! Not efficient design. Tacky comes to mind. Not to mention not enough respect for customers to include air bags....guess GM knows they won't be back for a new one.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Do you have a contract with them that states 0%?????
And what are the conditions?
basically once the deal is done its done. I have seen mistakes made and the dealer just eats it.
Now, on the other hand we all make mistakes and you have to ask youself what was the deciding factore for buying the car? Interest rate? And if so, would you not have bought it otherwise? Ok, the dealer is human and made a mistake, are you gonna hold them to it, or reach in and pay up?
What is the cost added if they give you a "new rate"?
Can you strike a compromise with them?
Do you want to screw them? What would make you happy?
Why they need you to come back? Can't they overnite you the paperwork? Get the finance dummy to drive to you?
It is probably a good idea to talk to your lawyer, but this is a guideline and there is probably a lesson in here for everyone.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
So true. French cars don't do very well outside France.
GM's reputation in China is a huge plus for Renault and Nissan. Double digit car sales increases are forecast for several more years in the Chinese markets.