Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

1…2930323435…90

Comments

  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I forgot 'ol RS was there at that time. Didn't even think about the 3-series connection.

    Luckily my cousin got rid of it, or it committed suicide. After many problems the engine decided to cough it's last breathe one night we were at my aunt's house. Think it swallowed a valve, barfed up a couple push rods and choked on it's oil pump. It was a nasty death.

    Poor Cava-I mean Cimmaron.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Roger Smith was probably thinking, "Hey, people like that small BMW! We can make a small Cadillac by dipping into our corporate parts bin and use the J platform!" He didn't realize there is more to a 3-Series than just its diminutive size.

    There was a lot about cars Roger Smith didn't understand - also about the competition...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I agree with you NV. ;)

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    You know what Rocky? Bill Ford reminds me a lot of Roger Smith! Both of them just about drop-kicked their companies into oblivion, and had no clue why.....
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    NV, I totally agree. I think the best people that make automobile CEO's are car guys. I think it's critical for them to put themselves in a consumer's shoes and understand what the consumer is looking for. I think they need to do that for each vehical they sign off on. It obviously hasn't happened throughout history otherwise vehicals like the Aztec would of never seen production. ;)

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Bill Ford was kind of a nebbishy buffoon. He was just the lucky heir of a fortune he could never have possibly made on his own. Reminds me of a guy whose grandfather was a developer. This guy repeated the tenth grade about three times, barely graduated from high school, and never attended college but is a millionaire because of what his grandpop accomplished 60 years ago.

    Instead of trying to run his family's corporation, Bill Ford should've just left the job to some far more competent outsider. He should just live the life of a bon vivant and party with Paris Hilton - another worthless successor to a family fortune.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Yup. Or continue to mismanage the Detroit Lions......
  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    Bill Ford has degrees from Princeton and MIT, so he is hardly a dunce, just not well suited to be the CEO of Ford.

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=93
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,318
    i think roger made some non automotive investments for gm that paid off, but he was not a car guy.
    i'm pretty sure i still remember his response to a question about gm's answer to the gen II k-car for about 7k was, 'buy a 2 year old buick/olds'.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Turns out he was right....
  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    i'm pretty sure i still remember his response to a question about gm's answer to the gen II k-car for about 7k was, 'buy a 2 year old buick/olds'.

    I think it was his response to what was GM's response to Hyundai, when it first debuted in the U.S.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,318
    my sister in law says i have a great mind for useless facts. :)
    i'm pretty sure it was a k-car.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Either way, it says more about their mis-placed arrogance than it does about the other car in question.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    "i'm pretty sure i still remember his response to a question about gm's answer to the gen II k-car for about 7k was, 'buy a 2 year old buick/olds'.

    I think it was his response to what was GM's response to Hyundai, when it first debuted in the U.S. "

    Now Toyota and Honda behave in same arrogant manner. Like "it is used car but it is still Honda". Or two years old certified Camry is better than new Ford.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,318
    sometimes you have to sift through a lot of junk, but i have learned a lot by posting and reading here on edmunds.
    i have learned that the mkz is based on a fusion, but i still like it.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Actually, the MKZ and the Fusion are based on a Mazda.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,318
    i think the mkz and fusion share the same chassis, which is an upgraded mazda 6 chassis. that's why i left out the mazda.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    And Mazda is based on European Ford.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Well, yeah, but the mkz is based on the mazda not the ford. It IS the ford.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I dont think this is true. Where did u read that?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Fusion and MKZ are both built on a MODIFIED mazda6 platform. It's longer and wider. It's no more a rebadged Mazda than the LS was a rebadged Jaguar S type.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Relax. I never said it was a rebadged Mazda, I said it was based on the Mazda. One could say though that the emmkayzee is a rebadged Ford.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Nope. Rebadging means they share drivetrains and interiors (at the very least). A Mazda B series pickup is a rebadged Ranger. A Mazda Navajo was a rebadged Explorer. I would even call the Mark LT a rebadged F150 (right now).

    The MKZ has a different engine and totally different interior. It's a shared platform. There is a difference.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    There is a difference, correct, but it is only a gradation just slightly away from rebadging...since so many of the body panels are the same, the mounting points are the same, the glass openings are the same. The different engine does little toward true differentiation, because last year, the Zephyr had the exact same engine, and soon the Fusion/Milan will need to offer the same 3.5 as MKZ in order to remain competitive. So, you have badge engineering on one end of the spectrum (Fusion/Milan, 500/Montego, F150/Mark LT, Edge/MKX, etc.) and shared platforms or architecture but with trule model differentiation on the other end (Fusion/Edge, LS/Type S, Mazda3/Volvo s40, MKS/S80, etc).

    Cars like MKZ have barely moved away from the badge engineering end of the spectrum. But again, it was the best effort Ford could offer under the circumstances, and a lot of MKZ owners don't care about...or don't even notice...the close similarity to Fusion, so it wasn't a bad move for Lincoln. Still, Lincoln cannot afford to keep issuing models on the cheap like MKX, MKZ and Mark LT. Hopefully, the MKR is a portend of better things to come...and hopefully as well it will get here before Lincoln is pushed out of the marketplace by Cadillac and others (the 2008 CTS leaps way ahead of the MKZ).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Lincoln has already announced the 3.7L version of the new Duratec which will be Lincoln only, and Horbury said starting with the MKS Lincoln would get 100% unique sheetmetal. They just have to survive for a couple more years. I believe Fields and Mulally (can we just start calling them FM?) have already given marching orders to stop the obvious cost cutting and instead add more features with better designs because you can't outcheap the Koreans and Chinese.

    I think the 09 models will really tell us how well they execute the strategy.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "I believe Fields and Mulally (can we just start calling them FM?)"

    Well, since Mulally is the big cheese, we should call them the "MF-ers" I think.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "before Lincoln is pushed out of the marketplace by Cadillac and others (the 2008 CTS leaps way ahead of the MKZ"

    Just think - the CTS was a pipe dream when the LS was released, began to compete head-to-head with the 5-Series, came close to beating it in several comparos, won Motor Trend COY and brought Lincoln's reputation up several notches.

    Now, the CTS is what the LS could have been and the LS is history and Lincoln has NOTHING to compete with the Europeans OR Cadillac for that matter. You just cant say the emmkayzee competes with the ceeteeess. The CTS is a luxury-sport sedan. The MKZ is a castrated luxo-Mazda.

    Gee, I wonder if Cadillac loses money on every CTS they sell like some people say Ford did with the LS. My guess is NO. As for the emmkatarr - it is a non-sequitor. It will never be produced. Something like it maybe in around 2012 or so. Til then we can buy a Mazda-Lincoln or maybe in a year or two a Volvo-Lincoln.

    To illustrate just how bad it is, Lincoln has begun featuring the emmkayrrr on its website. A car you will never be able to buy is what they are featuring. Do they really think people will buy the second-rate stuff they're selling now because they produced a winning one-off concept car?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    George - why are you so sure they won't build a car like the MKR?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Allen;

    I'm not sure of much. But I am sure you'll never be able to buy a mkr. By that I mean as it is pictured now on the Lincoln site. That's what I said - they're featuring a car you'll never be able to buy. I think you'll agree with that.

    Now, they might, check, probably WILL design and build something based on the mkr design. Maybe as close as the Z is to the original Zephyr concept, though I doubt that. I think the rear end will need to be substantially redesigned for crash-worthiness. And I hope they tone down the cowcatcher on the front a bit.

    I hope they do, it is an exciting look and Lord knows they need something exciting. Tell u what though, I think it'll be a LOT more expensive than the LS or MKS, so it'll be a moot point for me.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Obviously the front grille will be toned down but to their credit they took production capability into account when designing the MKR concept. That's why it has regular rear doors instead of suicide doors, e.g. and it's not built on some exotic platform.

    I *think* we'll see a RWD sedan with at least 400 hp with at least 5 of the 7 Lincoln styling cues that looks much closer to the MKR than previous Lincoln concepts.

    That and $5 will get you a grande soy latte.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    What they need is at least one model with 7 of the 7 styling cues, one that is bold and polarizing. One that George can think is too way out or deficient in rear design while I think it is perfect the way it is (and would buy it in a second if it were only available). The time for "toning down" is long, long past. If they do it again, three or four years hence, they are done. The end. (And good riddance if they continue to be so clueless.)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I'm told the MKR has all 7 of the 7 cues in it, which is why it's extreme.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The MKR was built specifically to showcase the 7 styling cues for the public and probably more importantly, the designers.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Why was the more elegant Continental Concept built? And more importantly, forgotten?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Because Lincoln was rudderless the last 6 years. The new regime (Horbury and Fields) specifically chastised previous Lincoln leadership for building concepts that never made it into production. That in combination with the changes that Fields and Mulally are making give me a lot of confidence that they'll build a production version of the MKR. Only question is exactly which platform (stretched mustang, new aussie falcon or a new platform shared by both) and when.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I hope you're right. ANother beautiful concept was the MK 9 hardtop convertible. I remember the Lincoln MF at the time saying they will never build anything like it, it's just a concept. That was on the SAME DAY it was first shown. Meanwhile Caddy and the other players (even Pontiac) have their own.

    And u know IMHO, I still see no rudder or even oar in the water. Take the stupid name thing for instance. They couldn't even make up their mind if it's emmkay or mark. Finally, they chose the nonsensical one. Even the badging on the cars implies that it should be pronounced "Mark Z". Take a look - the M and K are smaller and the Z is spaced further from the other two. I dont think they yet have a frickin clue what they're doing. And with all the best people taking buyouts (if history repeats) I'm in the pessimist column until I see different.

    And, I hope it's not too little too late. Here in SF bay area, 3 LM and 2 Ford dealers have gone out of business in the last year or two. And those are only the ones I know about. There may be more.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I thought it was Ford's intention to reduce number of dealership. In SF Bay area American cars do not sell at all. I see more niche products like Toyota FJ or Honda Ridgeline than Fusion/Milan/MKZ.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    We won't see any results from the new regime until this fall at the earliest with the dramatic stuff coming the year after. Everything that's out now was set 2 years ago. It's the little things that are being done that give me confidence (including Mulally taking back control of capital spending from the board).
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Well, maybe I'll have the resources to actually think about a new vehicle by then. I wish them luck, I really do.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I have to take a look at Chevy Malibu really hard, because my car is already 4 years old. Fusion/Milan are good cars but they designed interior the way that it looks less expensive than it really is. My Sable looks inside like more upscale car and it costs less (with all discounts I got). Aura exterior does not exite - too Asian/European and cheap looking plastic in interior is in too many places. It needless to say that you cannot consider Chrysler midsizers seriously.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    You've seen the photos of the next Malibu's two-tone interior I presume? In the pictures at least it looks better than anything I've ever seen in a car costing what the Malibi will cost. And the exterior is a winner too IMHO. The Fusion/Milan interiors look real cheap to me. No inspiration. Boring straight black (or satin-plastic) center stack. Just not in the ballpark. The new Sebring looks nice on the outside. As for Dodge - their interiors look to cost a total of $8.00 for the whole thing.
    What are u driving now? Mine is 6 years old now. Yikes. Tempis fugit eh?
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I drive '02 Mercury Sable LS Premium. It is top of the line and has well appointed roomy interior.

    I can imagine how Fusion and Milan were designed. It is not a fault of designers. It is a fault of project manager who allowed coming up with this kind of uncompetitive interior design. It lacks integrity. When Veraldi was managing development of original Taurus it is well documented how he was fighting for integrity of the whole vehicle, for each detail. Of course there was a pressure from upper management and bin counters but he risked everything to make car a success. And in the end of course he has been punished even though Taurus was a huge success and saved the company.

    Current Ford management came with such a lame designs like 500 and Freestyle and even Fusion could be done better if they took their job more seriously like Veraldi and his team did. 500 lacks any integrity or purpose, I don't know why you have to buy 500 if there is a better car like Avalon or 300. I figured out Ford 500 being a failure as soon as I saw first photos, driving a car just confirmed my judgment. Now I am a SW engineer but it seems that I better understand cars and car business than Ford management. How it can be possible? How company like this can survive and actually survived for 100 years? Of course you always can say because of people like Veraldi who saved company every time when it was on brink of collapse. But you cannot count on miracles forever.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I agree the interior on the Fusion and 500 is uninspiring to me. However, the Freestyle I like. What you said about the original Taurus was exactly right though, that interior was the finest, most ergonomic, most comfortable seats, ever made, and every thing they changed in it over the years only made it worse. If there were a car made today with the feel of the 86 Taurus, I'd buy it.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    $12.746Bn...lost. $33.4Bn in the bank, $24 Bn borrowed. Revenues down 14% to $69.4Bn. U.S market share down to 16% overall, on 3.021 Mn sales. Roughly $4,017 per vehicle lost. Average selling price against revenues: $22,417. Losses before special items: $2.812Bn

    The numbers present a grim picture at Ford Motor. When Bill Ford looks out his office window he will see the smoke-stacks of The Rouge. The iron ore smelters were lighted by his grandfather. Two men toured those factories almost twenty years apart, and now the companies they formed and built afterwards---based on Ford methodology---threaten to overtake or subsume Ford Motor. Ferdinand Porsche toured The Rouge, meeting the Henry Ford in July 1937, later recruiting Ford men to run the new VW-Werke in Germany. Eiji Toyoda would follow in his footsteps as soon as Japanese citizens were allowed to leave Japan after 1945, touring The Rouge in 1954. Today, those two firms now threaten the very position of Ford Motor as the second largest auto firm in America and the world. VWAG is a half million units away from surpassing Ford if the trends at Ford continue---and will beat them in 2007/08. Toyota has already beaten Ford once in 2006 for that title in America----this from a company that imported TWO cars to L.A. in 1957! When Henry Ford II drove a VW March 3, 1948 he told Ford-Werk Chief Engineer Richard Busseein: "Well, at least it's a car..." Ford's interest in VW never came to fruition.... Eiji Toyoda toured The Rouge and saw amazing things, astounding production feats, matched equally by a similar degree of waste he thought he could improve upon---simply by removing the "warehouse" aspect of the factory, and having the parts arrive just-in-time as they did at Ford's Fordson tractor factory. Thus the two men set their path from "Fords" and now it is Ford that is fighting for its future.

    Thus the "ARMS RACE" has begun. Mr. Katsuaki Watanabe at Toyota has said: "I personally would like to become number one in terms of the qualitative level of our company..." Mr. Mulally has been engaged at Ford, and must now engage in an "ARMS Race" against the competition. Just as Mr. Wiedeking at Porsche has declared: "This is a business war..." in reference to CO-2 emissions standards the EU Commission is seeking to impose. Mr. Mulally must now take the same position with respect to Ford Motor and Porsche-VWAG (the two companies have effectively, but not legally merged) and Toyota.

    The key to salvation: the kind of reaction that makes a man trade in his Zephyr for a MkZ. Levels of quality here-to-fore not seen in Ford Motor or Lincoln products. Just as VWAG uprated their cars in the 1990's, as did Audi under Martin Winterkorn, so must Lincoln move now. Not next year, but this instant. When a customer opens the door on a Lincoln (presuming you can get the car to him or her to do that) they must go; "wow, I didn't know they were that nice..." Start with interiors...and move on from point to point. Eventually the cars will have a seemless level of quality that no one can compete against. And it will take the herculean efforts of the suppliers like Collins & Aikmen to do so.

    Lincoln can regain the initiative because no expects them to do so. Take all the knowledge gleaned from the Jaguar project and put it into Lincoln without breaking into market segment mistakes that has turned Jaguar into a deep cat box. Take the smaller Jaguars and turn them into Mercury's---along with a Mustang varient bringing back Cougar. Ford has 37,000 salaried workers at the Glass House and they want to reduce that to 28,000 in '07/'08 That's 82 engineers and design staff working per day on project X, Y or Z to solve any one problem. Even if half that number are real car people and numbers crunchers or sales staff, alot can be done with motivation.

    Innovation, superb design, etc. all comes from the soul--often from one person---and the underdogs trying to save Lincoln might well be able to save all of Ford Motor if the can push their way through the top floors of the Glass House. One would not know it, but 'The Duce' said it best when he said it: "Never complain, Never explain..." and this time Team Lincoln must step forth, stop complaining, and stop explaining and just do it. Don't look for proposal guidance...just create ideas whole cloth from the wares that Ford can build, plus a few new ideas. That's how Bob Gregorie designed the Continental: In half an hour...

    Tell me that that can't be done again...? IF you beleive that, then our nation truly is finished in terms of manufacturing excellence and innovation. Talk of mergers or cooperation with Toyota is a carbunkle on the side of the Blue Oval. Hybrid technology bought-in will not save the company. Because Mr. Ford has made an empty promise about such things, and the public (now) knows better. So it falls to Mr. Mulally to ARM the public with designs that can inspire them to reconsider Ford and Lincoln once again. 27.4% of the world GDP belongs to America, and tell me there is not enough room in that pie for Ford to regain its share.

    "At least its a car" is no longer game in the auto industry. You have to be twice as good as the competition because they are aiming at you every day. Everytime someone opens a car door....

    Mr. Mulally will you win the game with Lincoln? If Bill Ford wants to see those smoke stacks billowing with Ford ore in the future, you must do it. Bring new Lincolns to the people, don't wait for them to come to you....

    DouglasR

    (Sources: FT; WSJ; 'Small Wonder' Walter Nelson Little Brown & Co 1967; 'Battle for the Beetle' karl Ludvigsen, Bentley Publishers, 2005; 'Toyota Way' Liker, NY 2006; Ford Motor Company Annual Reports)
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Ford lost almost $13 Billion in 2006, I began to question the possibility of buying a used Aviator or a new Explorer, as I wonder if Ford will survive long enought to service the vehicle under an extended warranty...

    Further, will they actually be around to service my current 2004 Crown Vic???

    If they lost $13 billion after borrowing $24 billion, and most of their profit is from slow selling SUVs, I can almsot assure you that they will lose another $10-15 billion in 2007...

    That brings the cash pretty low with which they pay ongoing bills like payroll and suppliers...what happens if the suppliers no longer extend credit if Ford starts paying bills 30-60-90 days late???

    If they file Chapter 11, they still msut pay the notes on the collateralized loans where they put up their plants and property as collateral...

    They may be able to restructure their unsecured loans, like their suppliers, but if they do not lokk like a viable company, will suppliers continue to extend credit???...(I am assuming that the $24 billion has already been financed over the maximum amount of time for the smallest possible payment to conserve cash flow, but I may be wrong on that)...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Doesn't anybody read the details? $9.9B of the $12.7B deficit were one time restructuring costs (plant closings and union buyouts). They purposely paid for as much as they could in 2006 to get the bad news out of the way. It's bad, but it's not THAT bad.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    is what percentage of the financial burden hindering recovery? :sick:
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    Yes, the losses "aren't as bad" if you exclude the special items, leaving another $2.860Bn lost---still a $987 loss per vehicle sold. But one can't ignore the shrinking of the company before any attempt is made towards profitability.

    The January results are in:

    GM: 244,688---a 16.9% drop
    Toyota: 175,850---a 9.5% gain
    Ford Motor: 165,688---a 20% drop over last year.

    Even VWAG gained 3.2% to 23,251 cars!

    The clock is ticking at Ford Motor. Why Lincoln needs to work round the clock on a "war-time" basis to save itself and the company. No one can argue with any veracity that Ford Motor can survive without its upscale brands, specifically Lincoln. (The counter agrument: Bill Ford let it languish, so perhaps a new owner might do better...) It would, however, be turning the clock back to 1922. GM surpassed Ford because it stratefied its product range to entice customers as their incomes increased. Ford must do the same thing, and selling off divisions would merely seek to drive customers further away. Sadly they are selling off the one division that (finally) did make money: Astons. The Billion they will get from Doughty Hanson (UK), Simon Halabi (Syria!), James Parker (Australia), or the UBS consortium will not solve their problems. It will buy another couple of months for them at best. And it will tarnish Ford's image for having come so far to develop the car and then cut and run. Both Jaguar and Astons should have been sold together....if they were going to dispose of assets.

    There is, however, hope...it is soon in the offing.

    DouglasR

    (Sources: Reuters, Automotive News)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Well, of oourse there is hope...as long as Lincoln is still alive. However, it is still offering only a line-up consisting of a tarted up 1998 Navigator, a tarted up F150, a tarted up Fusion, a hoary old Town Car, and a tarted up Ford Edge.

    The first model that will be more modern and be Lincoln alone will be the MKS, and it won't arrive for more than another year (and already had to be re-worked because the original concept was so boring).

    The MKR shows that Lincoln COULD produce exciting vehicles..if it survives. Any MKR-related Lincoln is more than two years away at the very least.

    What they plan to do about the earlier proposed Fairlane clone (due in 2009) is anyone's guess, but I bet Mullaly put his foot down on issuing yet another Ford clone with a Lincoln grill and interior. Yes, there is hope, but not great gobs of it yet.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    No, I never had a chance to read the article, so maybe I should feel sheepish...but still, that IS a lot of money, sales do NOT seem to be increasing, especially when the vehicles bringing the most profit, SUVs, are down due to gas mileage...we may need $2/gal gas for quite some time for folks to "forget" about $3/gal...

    And, with a number of Ford's designs anemic (IMO), where are the future sales going to come from???
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles